NationStates Jolt Archive

Bumping this thread, formerly known as Category Proposal: International Harmonization/Something, to see if it has applicability to the new (and possibly not temporary) Book-keeping category.

Book-keeping as currently written doesn't affect the statistics of member nations. As such, it offers the opportunity to create any number of valid international issues that don't actually have a statistical effect. All those proposals about standards, licenses, international space cooperatives, and such could fit here ... if we designed it well.

Players spotting it on the list have tossed out any number of game-changing suggestions, on the theory that if Maxtopia can do it, anyone can. Not gonna happen, folks. What we need to do if we're going to keep it, is find a way to prevent proposals about what cannot be changed, plus keep proposals that should change statistics from being proposed in this category.

Please note that this is not a commitment to keep this category active, nor an agreement between game staff and players to accept all your suggestions. However, many minds are frequently better than fewer minds at coming up with suggestions. See what you can do to help us!

Since my Aviation Safety Act doesn't fit in a category, I'm going to try to propose one for it.

My idea is a sort of "international standardization" thing. It tries to establish standards for things. This would correlate with an increase in the "economy" stat, but a slight decrease in "economic freedom" stat, because standards help improve the economy, but take a way a little of its freedom.

I would propose, for a start, that it be divided into four subcategories, like AoI and E&C: Safety (for international safety standards like ASA, this would give a boost to healthcare and commerce spending), Information (for things like the failed Worldwide Media Act, this would improve the Information Technology sector), Communication/Measurement (for things standardizing ways of expressing or measuring things, like Metric System, this would raise Commerce spending), and Utilitarian (for things like standardizing bolt thicknesses or whatever [bad example], this would improve manufacturing industries).

This is just a rough idea; I'm kind of tired right now. I'll flesh it out more tomorrow, but does anyone have any thoughts? It certainly needs better names for stuff.

I like "International Standardization". It covers things such as:

- Building Codes,
- Rail Gauges,
- Electricity Parameters,
- Medical Procedures,
- Procedures for Crossing Borders.

We'd need to think of a by-line and then how we could work a trade-off via the game stats we know about.

By-Line:
"A proposal to promote commerce or safety between nations by implementing standard procedures or processes."

The trade-off is increased public safety (those silly tourtists aren't screwing things up) and a slight economic increase, but a significantly larger government size (which *is* a game stat) and a modest increase in taxation.

Basically the category could be a Democratic Civil Engineers dream come true. ;)

The Building Code proposal that Grosseschnauzer and Mikitivity wish to "enlighten" the world with would be a reality. And my government has always been for tighter controls on commerical transport (standardization is good for international shipping firms).

By-Line:
"A proposal to promote commerce or safety between nations by implementing standard procedures or processes."

The trade-off is increased public safety (those silly tourtists aren't screwing things up) and a slight economic increase, but a significantly larger government size (which *is* a game stat) and a modest increase in taxation.I don't know if this is broad enough to warrent a category, but I'm already seeing possible (real) stat effects it could have.

The big question is if you want to have it work like Environmental (multiple targets) or like most others (Mild, Signifigant, Strong).

I don't know if this is broad enough to warrent a category, but I'm already seeing possible (real) stat effects it could have.

The big question is if you want to have it work like Environmental (multiple targets) or like most others (Mild, Signifigant, Strong).

:) Cool, it sounds as though you are at least intriqued by the idea!

I had Mild, Significant, and Strong in mind, largely because as soon as we come up with a few mini industries to tweak, a player will find a good reason for ant-farming to be included (ok, perhaps not something as far out in left field as that, but still I feel the M, S, St strength systems are more flexible).

That said, I'm not privy to all the categories *or* if you guys have the ability to make new categories. If you're wanting to do that, then 4 areas of activity could be possibly grouped for a boost. The areas that come to mind:

- Infrastructure & Transit (Power, Buildings, Rail, Roads, Water Works)
- Medical
- Applied & Physical Sciences (*)
- Commerce (Banking, Intellectual Property Regs, Information Tech)

The medical should be obvious.

* This category would boost education ... and could also be a catch all for farming or things that don't fit in the other three.

I'm still in favour of just M, S, & St, but categories would give the game mods a chance to revisit our hidden stats and dream up ways to give players a shot and differentiating them via the ups and downs of resolutions / repeals. Repeals will have the effect in the lesser opposite direction just as they do now.

Adam Island, Ceo, Grosseschnauzer and I have all come up with ideas that over the past two years would fit into these ideas. UN Space Consortium & Tracking Near Earth Objects is really about cooperation on space science research. The Tsunami Warning System, Natural Disaster Act, and St. Ed's Meteorological Cooperation are really about earth sciences cooperation. Adam Island was pushing a Food and Agriculture program two years ago. Ceo and others continue to bring up either maritime or air commerce safety issues.

The requirement should however be that all of these proposals need to promote international cooperation and standardization ... failing that, I personally think some of the other categories handle the domestic focused topics.

I think it should be multiple targets

Measurements - Standardisation of measurements such as lengths, weights, time, sound, electronic and other measurements that could be used. (anyone remember when ft and meters got confused? It resulted in the loss of the mars probe.)

Infrastructure - Standards for transportation such as pickup up dropping off of passengers. Standards in use during transportation such as rail gauge, controls for directing vehicles,etc. And other infrastructure such as power and physical communication networks. (Cabling and communication equipment would come under this category)

Communication - Such as standardisation of communication protocols, Radio communications, phone communications. Things required to be communicated, or standards for international emergency contact. Also included potentially in this is encryption of data in transit. In other words Standards of how to deal with already existing communications infrastructure.

Safety - Standards to ensure public and worker safety in risky environments inplaces such as construction sites, medical waste, infection disease protocols, general business sites, places of habitation and public places.

Education & Scientific - Standards involved with the progress of scientific discovery and educating people, whether education is of a scientific nature or not.

There are probably more but these should IMO be certainly included.

(anyone remember when ft and meters got confused? It resulted in the columba disaster)

OOC: No, the feet/meters mixup caused the loss of a Mars probe.

OOC: No, the feet/meters mixup caused the loss of a Mars probe.

That's what I said. :p

Oh, great, let's give wasteful bureaucracy and regulations an entire separate category now! :rolleyes:

Oh, great, let's give wasteful bureaucracy and regulations an entire separate category now! :rolleyes:
Look on the bright side - you won't have to read past the category before deciding that you don't like a resolution.

Look on the bright side - you won't have to read past the category before deciding that you don't like a resolution.

http://www.nrk.no/img/394457.jpeg
Always look on the briiiiight side of life...

I'm thinking that this is a category where M/S/St isn't going to work as well. It's just too broad, and there's not a lot of room for different "strengths" in this category, I think.



How about this for Areas of Effect: Travel (covers transit safety, border crossing, passport harmonization, etc.), Communications (covers stuff like Worldwide Media Act, phone integration, file format standards, measurements, etc.), Goods (covers stuff like standard ant-farm thicknesses, bolt thicknesses, standards boards for goods, etc.), and Research & Technology (covers stuff like international cooperation on projects, standard medical practices and research, scientific cooperation, etc.)

I think that covers just about all of the suggestions.

I still need a good by-line. I like Mik's, but I think it's a bit too narrow. How about "A resolution to create a framework for streamlined commerce or cooperation between nations"?

But I still think it needs a more descriptive name and possibly a better byline. "International Harmony/Harmonization" are the best so far, IMO.

Unless there are any other ideas?

Maybe?

Please?

EDIT: also, my four areas of effect wouldn't cover a building code proposal, which is certainly a good candidate for this category. Perhaps it could be changed to Production Standards instead of Goods?

To be honest, I'd like a category that was simply an exact opposite of Free Trade: it reduced economic freedoms, and that's it (maybe the Free Trade category has other effects, for example lowering tax rate/Administration spending...if so, those could be reversed as well, but I'm not convinced FT proposals actually improve the economy). Social Justice doesn't do this: it's more about wealth redistribution and welfare.

For example, the category explanations cite a Securities & Exchanges Commission, and a Food and Drug Administration, as two possible ways of regulating economic activity (i.e. they're not Free Trade). But they wouldn't work as Social Justice proposals, either (unless you proposed the FDA give out free chocolate bars).

So perhaps simply "Trade Regulation", with Mild, Significant, Strong for strength?

But I still think it needs a more descriptive name and possibly a better byline. "International Harmony/Harmonization" are the best so far, IMO.

Unless there are any other ideas?

Maybe?

Please?

EDIT: also, my four areas of effect wouldn't cover a building code proposal, which is certainly a good candidate for this category. Perhaps it could be changed to Production Standards instead of Goods?

Building codes are actually emergency response related issues. Specifically, they are intended to be practices / regulations that are placed upon the construction industry with three goals (often in this order): (1) save the lives of the occupants, (2) protect the non-living contents inside the facility, and (3) prolong the design life of the facility itself.

In addition to building codes, certification to practice as say ... an engineer would also be a "regulation". Along those lines, the UN could essentially certify doctors, engineers, lawyers, geologists, and *gasp* teachers -- note I'm not saying "how" this could be done, but I do have a good, fair, and sovereign friendly approach in mind.

To be honest, I'd like a category that was simply an exact opposite of Free Trade

Isn't there already? I thought I saw some proposals in the queue last week that were specifically protecting domestic industries.

Isn't there already? I thought I saw some proposals in the queue last week that were specifically protecting domestic industries.
Ah, you mean the "Protective Tariffs" part of Advancement of Industry.

Yes, that's true, but it's very specialised. Tariffs is only one part of Free Trade (caps or no), and there are plenty of legitimate Free Trade proposals that wouldn't mention tariffs. I meant a more general regulation category.

Ah, you mean the "Protective Tariffs" part of Advancement of Industry.

Yes, that's true, but it's very specialised. Tariffs is only one part of Free Trade (caps or no), and there are plenty of legitimate Free Trade proposals that wouldn't mention tariffs. I meant a more general regulation category.

OK I understand now, a building code would ultimately do two things:

- Save lives
- Increase construction costs

It is a regulation. I think we're of the same mind here. :)

How about Trade Standards? I think that would fit more in with the category naming conventions (they're all sort of fluffy: furthering democracy, stabilizing politics, advancing industry, freeing trade, etc.), as Trade Regulation just doesn't seem to fit. Standards also allows for mild stuff like standards that don't actually mandate anything, but provide a common exchange medium, like file formats or an international currency (not saying we should actually have one, but something like that).

As for the stats, I think Mild/Medium/Strong would work, but I think it ought to be a little different:

Mild would keep economic freedom the same and improve the economy. (This would be like creating a common file format without mandating anything, which would improve the economy because we'd all have a file format to use, but it wouldn't restrict anything.)

Significant would slightly reduce economic freedom and slightly improve (or keep the same) the economy. (This would be like mandated standards, but ones that a) most companies would already have, b) most consumers would insist on and c) would cause economic damages if not implemented. Stuff like building codes and safety standards.)

Strong would reduce economic freedom and keep the same or reduce the economy. (This would be akin to environmental regulations, except they don't fit into the environmental category. Maybe something like that Sustainable Energy Act I had on Reclamation?)

Or, we could rename them for easier understanding, although I can't really think what.

The problem with that is that it doesn't leave room for a resolution URGING nations to implement standards, as that would lead to a slight decrease in freedom and economy.

How about simply "Standards" or "Standards and Practices", broken down into about four categories?

Generating bureaucratic nonsense is an essential role of government, and we should recognize that. Not to mention that we'd have the opportunity to legislate lots of crap without a lot of effect on nations. Also, think of the fun you can have repealing and redefining each batch of bureaucratic crapola, week after week, and month after month.

Regardless of what you folks propose, we're going to have to write the code that makes it run. I can't imagine any set of standards (which essentially only define rather than mandate action) as having an effect more than "mild". Try to use ideas and areas that you know the game uses (the United Nations Report and your nation's descriptions would be good starting points), and we'll be a lot more likely to campaign for its inclusion.

How about this for Areas of Effect: Travel (covers transit safety, border crossing, passport harmonization, etc.), Communications (covers stuff like Worldwide Media Act, phone integration, file format standards, measurements, etc.), Goods (covers stuff like standard ant-farm thicknesses, bolt thicknesses, standards boards for goods, etc.), and Research & Technology (covers stuff like international cooperation on projects, standard medical practices and research, scientific cooperation, etc.)
Substitute "Commerce" for "Goods", and I quite like this list. I'd also consider making "Travel" into "International Travel", just to throw a bone to the sovereigntists.

Either that, or make the entire category "International Standards", which might keep out some of the real garbage.

How about:

Standards and Protocols
A resolution to create standards for improved international relations or safety.
Area of Effect: Travel, Communications, Research & Design, Trade (covers "commerce" and "goods" previous categories)

So how do we go about actually proposing this?

You buy SalusaSecondus/Pythagosaurus caek.

Yes, I support this category too.

I've taken this concept to the mods and admins. We'll poke some numbers around and see if we can get consensus.


Don't wait up. Leave the porch light on.

Okay. Thanks Fris. :)

The category BOOK-KEEPING and its sub-strengths are not a valid category.

All proposals using this temporary category will be deleted without penalty to the poster ... but please stop posting them.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator

Bumping this thread, formerly known as Category Proposal: International Harmonization/Something, to see if it has applicability to the new (and possibly not temporary) Book-keeping category.

Book-keeping as currently written doesn't affect the statistics of member nations. As such, it offers the opportunity to create any number of valid international issues that don't actually have a statistical effect. All those proposals about standards, licenses, international space cooperatives, and such could fit here ... if we designed it well.

Players spotting it on the list have tossed out any number of game-changing suggestions, on the theory that if Maxtopia can do it, anyone can. Not gonna happen, folks. What we need to do if we're going to keep it, is find a way to prevent proposals about what cannot be changed, plus keep proposals that should change statistics from being proposed in this category.

Please note that this is not a commitment to keep this category active, nor an agreement between game staff and players to accept all your suggestions. However, many minds are frequently better than fewer minds at coming up with suggestions. See what you can do to help us!

I can keep track of most international codes that identify Nations. So keep the Book-keeping category to seize that chance to standardize international codes, TLDs and so on.

I think any of us can think of one or a dozen possible proposals based on this. That's not what I'm looking for here.

Under the Category of Book-keeping, we can have up to four distinctly different Effects. Each Effect can have its own description to define that effect. What I want from you are lists of those effects and description lines. Something like ...

Standards and Protocols
"A resolution to create standards for improved international relations or safety."

International Organization
(something about improving the bureaucracy)

Research & Technology
"A resolution to encourage and inspire the advancement of member nations"

Now, come up with your own lists or improve on the ones already here.

H'mm. Would proposals on Diplomatic Immunity, and along the same lines as the UN resolution 'Continuity of Government', fit into that 'International Organization' area-of-effect?

International Organisation
"A resolution to harmonise bureaucracy and improve international communications and travel" perhaps?

Research & Technology is going to need some words to emphasise that no funding is involved, otherwise it's going to get all the "Spend money on a cure for AIDS" resolutions. Sorry, I can't think of any at the moment.

One I would dearly love to see, though it doesn't quite fit and I imagine no-one's going to want to code it: Internal Book-keeping: "A resolution to strike out the text (but not the effect) of a repeal, for being a lying toe-rag."

Definitions and Procedures
"A resolution to provide standard terminology for other WA resolutions."
Though arguably that's not stat-neutral either, depending on where you think the whole "Sentients' Rights" issue sits in this.

I'm a bit uncertain about this idea as I think it will lead to many interminable games mechanics discussions, but I like the International Standards & Protocols idea. I'm less keen on Research as I feel that would (should) have stat effects.

Perhaps a subcategory could be: International Legal Order - which could be used to describe national obligations to one another (e.g. Rights of Neutral States, Rights & Duties [which has made quorum, oh well], laws of war) so they don't all have to be shoehorned into Pol Stab/Human Rights.

The whole purpose of the proposal categories is to assure that UN proposals passed in-game have a noticeable effect on national stats. What statistical effect would "international standardization" or "international organization" even have? An increase in our administrative budgets? I said before that a category akin to this is unnecessary, and I still hold that view. Filing proposals such as Diplomatic Immunity and Rights and Duties under "Political Stability" or "Furtherment of Democracy," or intellectual property conventions under "Free Trade," was never much of a stretch in my mind anyway.

The only thing that's coming to mind is that BOOKKEEPING is the category that a WA Funding Act should be submitted under.

I can't really cohere together subcategories in my mind right now, but I'll continue thinking on it to see if anything jiggles loose and falls out my ear.

I'd actually like a new *level* of play in the WA.

In addition to "strength" for resolutions, there should be an "influence" parameter which has one of three options:

- domestic
- international
- both

It would force players to really write their resolutions with these influences for each category in mind. For example, are you changing the way nations treat each other (international) or are you telling nations how they have to treat their own citizens (domestic).

I agree fully with Frisbeeteria because we do need standards like TLD code systems and airline identification codes. I really love codes so it would be a good job for me, but currently, I'm in college, OOC.

I'd actually like a new *level* of play in the WA.

In addition to "strength" for resolutions, there should be an "influence" parameter which has one of three options:

- domestic
- international
- both

It would force players to really write their resolutions with these influences for each category in mind. For example, are you changing the way nations treat each other (international) or are you telling nations how they have to treat their own citizens (domestic).

but you cant ever differentiate domestic politics from international. tariffs effect domestic constituencies. treaties effect domestic constituencies. international arrangements undeniably effect domestic ideology. the two realms simply arent seperable.

If you guys can help me here, I think I've got the admins sold on the change. If not, 99% of the stuff proposed under Bookkeeping will probably end up getting deleted for Game Mechanics violations, until such time as we finally kill the category.

This is your big chance. Step up and get your ideas incorporated into the game.

If you guys can help me here, I think I've got the admins sold on the change. If not, 99% of the stuff proposed under Bookkeeping will probably end up getting deleted for Game Mechanics violations, until such time as we finally kill the category.

This is your big chance. Step up and get your ideas incorporated into the game.

Given that this thread is nearly two years old, which of the many ideas presented here would you like us to focus on? :)

Specifically do we still have to keep the Bookkeeping category or is there a possibility of some of the Standards ideas being green lighted?

-M

The category will almost certainly remain "Bookkeeping".

What we want is 3-4 Effects to replace the "Mild", "Significant" and "Sweeping", as those are just too damn generic. We need short names like the ones used in "Advancement of Industry" or "Education and Creativity". One of them could be something to do with Standards.

In addition, one of them needs to incorporate WA Res #1, as even Maxtopia's proposals are bound by the same rules as the rest of the game. So one of them needs to have to do with WA rules and regulations.

Category:
Bookkeeping

Areas of Effect:
Diplomatic Relations"A resolution reducing bureaucratic inefficiencies by formalizing international communication and diplomatic policies."
Examples: The World Assembly (WA001), Diplomatic Immunity (UN127)

Trade & Commerce"A resolution to stimulate international trade and commerce by adopting common standards or practices."
Example: Metric System (UN024), Labeling Standards (UN123)

Collaborative Research"A resolution to reduce the cost of research efforts through increased exchanges of information."
Example: Tracking Near Earth Objects (UN064), Stem Cell Research Funding (UN082)

Safety & Emergency Response"A resolution to promote safety through increased emergency response preparedness and response coordination."
Example: Good Samaritan Laws (UN076), Natural Disaster Act (UN100)

I stuck my (slightly disorganised) thoughts in earlier. Miki's are good, though; I'd rather call "Trade & Commerce" "International Standards" though, since it's got a far wider potential impact than just trade.

I stuck my (slightly disorganised) thoughts in earlier. Miki's are good, though; I'd rather call "Trade & Commerce" "International Standards" though, since it's got a far wider potential impact than just trade.

I'm good with the name change. Ultimately I just want more knobs for us to turn and I've been very patiently waiting for an emergency response category since the day in 2004 that I was zapped for having a proposal that didn't fit any category.

I like Mik's ideas, with Gobbles's modifier. Do we need to come up with suggestions for mechanical effects?

A rough idea of what you think it'd do couldn't hurt. It could easily be phrased like Issue results are ("civil rights up, taxes down").

Category:
Bookkeeping

Areas of Effect:
Diplomatic Relations"A resolution reducing bureaucratic inefficiencies by formalizing international communication and diplomatic policies."
Examples: The World Assembly (WA001), Diplomatic Immunity (UN127)
Stats Impacts: government size slightly decreases, civil rights slightly increase, slight tax increase

International Standards"A resolution to stimulate trade and commerce by adopting common standards or practices."
Example: Metric System (UN024), Labeling Standards (UN123)
Stats Impacts: economic status significantly increases, government size slightly increases

Collaborative Research"A resolution to reduce the cost of research efforts through increased exchanges of information."
Example: Tracking Near Earth Objects (UN064), Stem Cell Research Funding (UN082)
Stats Impacts: environmental slightly increases, apathy decreases

Safety & Emergency Response"A resolution to promote safety through increased emergency response preparedness and response coordination."
Example: Good Samaritan Laws (UN076), Natural Disaster Act (UN100)
Stats Impacts: crime rate slightly decreases, apathy slightly decreases, government size significantly increases



Aside: I'm not sure on what game stats exist, but my thoughts are that (1) diplomatic procedures, give citizens more rights and reduce tensions between nations, (2) standards make industry more efficient by placing the policing on government (companies can more readily trade employees because everybody is interchangeable), (3) sharing information reduces overall --> government size is the same (duplicate researchers are now all about communication), but quality of life improves (your environment) and people are less apt to complain, (4) quality of life and unrest decrease when a government has the ability to make natural disasters less significant, but at the cost of additional ER people.

(I'll point out that in Real-Life I'm an ER person. My job is to make it so other people have less to worry about, but they have to pay increased taxes for me to do my job.)

This is just a first shot based on my theories / experiences as a RL government / bureaucratic employee. I'm VERY eager to do whatever it takes to get these new subcategories and work with the mods. :)

So what is this - a debate on bookkeeping?!! :headbang: This is very superfluous. Bookkeeping should be held in LIBRARIES!!!!!!!!!!

So what is this - a debate on bookkeeping?!! :headbang: This is very superfluous. Bookkeeping should be held in LIBRARIES!!!!!!!!!!

We are discussing changes to the game -- we hope to introduce new resolution categories, giving players more options.

I really favor for 'International Standards' to be a category of its own, with no variable level of effect or strength. I feel that NationStates original has a lot of life left even if NS2 comes out.

I really favor for 'International Standards' to be a category of its own, with no variable level of effect or strength. I feel that NationStates original has a lot of life left even if NS2 comes out.

International Standards *is* a sub-category. If we bumped it up to its own category, mechanically the game would still need area of effect or strength sub-categories.

Though sadly the passage of the last resolution has opened the door for future potential bookkeeping & international standards proposals to just be squeezed into any other category as a mild proposal. If we get the categories, the mods can simply make a ruling grandfathering previous resolution ... that isn't a major issue.

I suspect NS2 is still a ways away, but I also think it will really decrease the level of interest in NS. I'll play both at first, but plan to eventually migrate to one of the games.

Though sadly the passage of the last resolution has opened the door for future potential bookkeeping & international standards proposals to just be squeezed into any other category as a mild proposal.
Maybe it's now time to let that out of your teeth?

Category:
Bookkeeping

Areas of Effect:
Diplomatic Relations"A resolution reducing bureaucratic inefficiencies by formalizing international communication and diplomatic policies."
Examples: The World Assembly (WA001), Diplomatic Immunity (UN127)
Stats Impacts: government size slightly decreases, civil rights slightly increase, slight tax increase

International Standards"A resolution to stimulate trade and commerce by adopting common standards or practices."
Example: Metric System (UN024), Labeling Standards (UN123)
Stats Impacts: economic status significantly increases, government size slightly increases

Collaborative Research"A resolution to reduce the cost of research efforts through increased exchanges of information."
Example: Tracking Near Earth Objects (UN064), Stem Cell Research Funding (UN082)
Stats Impacts: environmental slightly increases, apathy decreases

Safety & Emergency Response"A resolution to promote safety through increased emergency response preparedness and response coordination."
Example: Good Samaritan Laws (UN076), Natural Disaster Act (UN100)
Stats Impacts: crime rate slightly decreases, apathy slightly decreases, government size significantly increasesWhile I appreciate that a great deal of thought obviously went into this, most of it overlaps existing categories: most of "International Standards," for example, is covered by Free Trade; "Collaborative Research," Education and Creativity; and "Safety and Emergency Response," International Security.

Diplomatic Relations sounds like a good idea for a separate category, however. "World Assembly" (and yes, "WA HQ" :rolleyes:) would have fitted nicely in a like category. Although, since I cannot think of an instance for a "Strong" Diplomatic Relations proposal, maybe instead of strength level we resort to a "Decision" sub-group, a la Recreational Drug Use and Gun Control?

"Promote/stabilize"?

While I appreciate that a great deal of thought obviously went into this, most of it overlaps existing categories: most of "International Standards," for example, is covered by Free Trade; "Collaborative Research," Education and Creativity; and "Safety and Emergency Response," International Security.

I disagree ...
"Let's focus on the means and not just the ends here, Please".

The game stats for what I've proposed *needs* to be different than the existing categories game stats. If they aren't, then you're right -- no need for changes. But I think in practice they are. And I think Fris saw some potential here too when he asked us to throw out some specific details.

Standards vs. Free Trade
There are significant differences between stimulating trade through standardization and stimulating trade through deregulation.

It is really the fundamental difference between capitalism and socialism. Both systems use laws to tweak the economy, but one essentially uses "blockers" to prevent roadblocks and the other uses regulations to streamline the economy.

I'm proposing the following
Stats Impacts: economic status significantly increases, government size slightly increases

Economic status is not the same as economic freedoms.

Safety
While education is one part of safety if you want to lump all planning efforts together, safety & emergency response also impose restrictions and in practice also includes stockpiling, such as, "Don't have camp fires when the fire danger is high" and "Let's put a fire engine here in case some moron starts a forest fire". Education simply would tell you why that is bad, safety would actually restrict your freedoms by fining you when you do something stupid like that and using your tax dollars to pay for the response resources.

Furthermore, the intent of the Creativity category was also to support cultural issues.

Let's look at the stats I'm proposing for safety:
crime rate slightly decreases, apathy slightly decreases, government size significantly increases

Based on what I've said above, we could also decrease civil freedoms slightly. "Don't cross this line, it will kill you." I don't think there is a safety game stat, so I've proposed crime rate.

Honestly, what do you think the stat changes for education and creativity do? There is a culture game stat and an educated, right. "Most Cultured nations ..." Safety is not going to change that a bit. But I think the key is to knowing how the stats are changed for those categories and making these slightly different.

We need to look at how we are changing things.


Diplomatic Relations sounds like a good idea for a separate category, however. "World Assembly" (and yes, "WA HQ" :rolleyes:) would have fitted nicely in a like category. Although, since I cannot think of an instance for a "Strong" Diplomatic Relations proposal, maybe instead of strength level we resort to a "Decision" sub-group, a la Recreational Drug Use and Gun Control?

"Promote/stabilize"?

The goal Fris tasked us with was to treat Bookkeeping as the category, but to actually focus on the game stat impacts of subcategories.

NS2 will eventually be here, and I don't think we need entirely new categories. But it sounded from Fris's post that only minor changes could be implemented in order for us to make use of the Bookkeeping.

Diplomatic relations shouldn't be made worse by a World Assembly resolution, which "promote/restrict" options would tend to do, but I think we're digressing from Fris's request to focus on sub-categories.

In theory, we should be able to look at each World Assembly and United Nations resolution and on our own make up game stat changes based on the text. We should send trends were categories of resolutions should have similar game stat changes, but there are numerous examples of when we've shoehorned something into a category (I'm the largest perp there is <-- which is why I'd like to see more categories).

Let's look at the stats I'm proposing for safety:
crime rate slightly decreases, apathy slightly decreases, government size significantly increases

Based on what I've said above, we could also decrease civil freedoms slightly. "Don't cross this line, it will kill you." I don't think there is a safety game stat, so I've proposed crime rate.

I've seen both the UN & the WA use 'Safest Nation' as a category in the daily rankings...

I've seen both the UN & the WA use 'Safest Nation' as a category in the daily rankings...

I've seen it too. Thanks for reminding me. :)

Is it its own stat or a crime rate inversed? It is ultimately the measure of a safety resolution, and not really crime rate.

:sniper: I think there should be a book,but on trade and commerce.

Did you read more than the title of this thread?

Standards vs. Free Trade
There are significant differences between stimulating trade through standardization and stimulating trade through deregulation.

It is really the fundamental difference between capitalism and socialism. Both systems use laws to tweak the economy, but one essentially uses "blockers" to prevent roadblocks and the other uses regulations to streamline the economy.

I'm proposing the following
Stats Impacts: economic status significantly increases, government size slightly increases

Economic status is not the same as economic freedoms.I fail to see how the differences are all that "significant" (I said your proposed subsets "overlapped" existing categories, not duplicated them), just as I fail to see how such hairsplitting is conducive to category development. Whether the focus is to stimulate trade through uniformity of standards, or through elimination of tariffs, both of them as a general rule are intended to stimulate trade, and "reduce barriers to trade and commerce." Insisting otherwise would make the category scheme something less than efficient, and only increase the possibility that proposal authors will choose the wrong category, as though the WA wasn't already infected by this problem.

Your point about "Book-keeping" is taken; if that's what we're being given, I suppose we just have to live with it. But I reserve the right to state that "Book-keeping" is a pretty silly idea for a category.

I fail to see how the differences are all that "significant" (I said your proposed subsets "overlapped" existing categories, not duplicated them), just as I fail to see how such hairsplitting is conducive to category development.

No problem. I can appreciate the difficulty in understanding the game mechanics behind the categories. A moderator asked us to *help* him by coming up with suggested impacts.

Resolutions have impacts on one or *more* (the key here) game stats.

Economic freedom is not the same game stat as the Economy stat. The Economy stat can be "Frightening" (i.e. huge) for a country with a zero economic freedoms. It can also be "Frightening" for country with essentially every possible economic freedom there is.

As players we are not supposed to know with certainty the complete stat impacts of issues and resolutions, though people do figure them out after a while.

My guess is that Free Trade bumps *both* Economy and Economic freedoms. It is deregulation. A booking keeping subcategory that imposes regulations is not at all in line with laissez-faire free market economics. "Let do".

Essentially you are arguing that there is no difference whatsoever in capitalism and socialism *and* that we shouldn't allow players the ability to tweak their nations in one direction or the other. I think that is shortsighted. It is focusing only on the ends and not the means.


Whether the focus is to stimulate trade through uniformity of standards, or through elimination of tariffs, both of them as a general rule are intended to stimulate trade, and "reduce barriers to trade and commerce."

Uniformity of standards is a rule. It is a regulation. It is an easy concept to understand, as it pretty much comes up in many of the old UN "Free Trade" resolution debates, especially when a Free Trade resolution misuses the category to impose more standards and rules than it relaxes. We've seen this come up a few times in NationStates over the years.

Speed limits are a rule. They promote safety, but they also would reduce our freedom to do what we damn well please. Every 16-year old in the United States figures this out damn fast.

We could *not* promote safety through speed limits, but instead education. (I personally am willing to bet it wouldn't be nearly as effective -- teens have other things on their er "minds".)

NationStates mimics the carrot and stick reality of real-life politics. Governments rule by dangling carrots and sticks in front of people. Both a carrot and a stick can get to the same ends, but the POINT of the daily issues is the smaller impacts that come along with the carrot and stick.

But I reserve the right to state that "Book-keeping" is a pretty silly idea for a category.

Sure. Knock yourself out.

I think it is a funny and much more positive way to describe bureaucracy. Laws and regulations are what bureaucracy are *partially* about. They are the means, but the goal is always something else, because no adult is gonna impose a rule for a rules sake.

Hence the reason to give the category meaningful subcategories that giveth and taketh away at the same time. If we are gonna us the stick approach (which is what bookkeeping and bureaucracy does best) let's offset it a bit with other game stat changes too.

One of our fine admins did a bit of coding today, and the Bookkeeping category is no longer a player choice. As such, this sticky serves no further purpose. I've un-stuck it.

At the same time, he removed the repeal link on WA Res #1, so we should be seeing no more attempted repeals with the principal argument "hey, I can click this button, so I'm going to make an ass of myself". They'll have to come on the forums to do that for Res #1.