NationStates Jolt Archive

We here in the Democratic Republic of Starmericana believe that one of the few ways for the true corporate development and ostentation of economic to become fully fledged and wide-spread in its potential is through the utilization of 5th world sweat shops. Cheap and dependable labor through the work output of expendable non-nationals makes this truly the only way for a steady flow of income.
Presidentia Case
DMS

"5th world"?

And?

Why mention it here?

Worse than the 3rd world, indeed.

I was just wondering what other UN members thought of this sort of ideal.

Starmericana']Worse than the 3rd world, indeed.

I was just wondering what other UN members thought of this sort of ideal.
Are you serious?

Well, certainly in a world with such nations as our own, it's not surprising that there are places even worse than 3 world nations, is it?

And all things considered, what actual profit does a humanitarian outlook give? I'm all in favor of supporting international aid if it profits trade and bolsters the economy, but purely philanthropic interest in others? An outdated illusion.

Starmericana']Well, certainly in a world with such nations as our own, it's not surprising that there are places even worse than 3 world nations, is it?

And all things considered, what actual profit does a humanitarian outlook give? I'm all in favor of supporting international aid if it profits trade and bolsters the economy, but purely philanthropic interest in others? An outdated illusion.

Yeah, boy... Treating people well is just so foolish and difficult. Nothing good can ever come of it. What were we thinking when we abolished slavery, set up a Parliamentary government, and built schools?

There is nothing illusory about the benefits of humanism, for all parties involved. For one thing, I've never turned around to be bitten in the ass by anyone I lent a hand to. I can guarantee you won't be able to say the same, should you continue to deliberately eschew the concept of the old addage, "What goes around, comes around," and the ever popular (in Norderia, at least) concept of wu-wei, which amounts to about the same thing as Newton's laws of physics.

To adress your points...
#1. Slavery has been firmly abolished in Starmericana for the explicit reason that it is not economically or politically sound. Any nation using slavery as a basis for their economy is certain to undergo a revolution or economy breakdown.
#2. While parliamentary governments are well and good, how exactly do they know how to directly influence the people? With the exceedingly high amount of pure bureaucratic red tape, it's almost impossible to deal with any issue that relates to the people.
#3. Schools are the fundamental building blocks of Starmericana, without them, the entire specialized work system of our and many other nations would not exist, leading us straight back to the Stone Age.

Our extremely popular policy in Starmericana (as are all of the policies) is to ignore the spiritual mumbo jumbo that you speak of.

5th world is a rather interesting concept, but you are false in your understanding of what the 3rd world is in relation to the first world.

During the cold war, there was a feeling amongst many undeveloped nations that they were being thrown into the war between the two superpowers - quite a justified concern. As such, they felt themselves become "united" as the third block (or third world). Now, in terms of formal alliances, defensive work, etc, there was really very little the third world did during the cold war but the term remained as an excellent way to describe those that had been too weak to be considered worthy of alliance with the two superpowers.

The US/NATO/"Democracy"/Capitalist block was the first world, the USSR/Warsaw/Communism block was the second world.

There is no such thing as 4th world or lower. The entire concept of the 3rd world is actually not really valid in this game. The concept really should be "developed" or "undeveloped". You wish to address nations that, as far as economic developement is concerned, they are "backwards"

The Commonwealth values all life, especially sentient life, and their rights to, as the saying goes, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Furthermore, "what goes around, comes around," and the pseudo-Newton's-third-law are philosophies. Philosophy does not necessarily mean spirituality in any way. In this case, they are simply ways of living, nonspiritually, in the case of the rather agnostic Commonwealth. We find your attempt to duck around morals, or possibly your personal lack of morals, deplorable.

The US/NATO/"Democracy"/Capitalist block was the first world, the USSR/Warsaw/Communism block was the second world.

There is no such thing as 4th world or lower. The entire concept of the 3rd world is actually not really valid in this game. The concept really should be "developed" or "undeveloped". You wish to address nations that, as far as economic developement is concerned, they are "backwards"

Correct, I thank you for the correction. However, we must acknowledge that the term '3rd world nation' has now become broadly usable as an extremely poor and/or backwards nation. So for the interest solely of this article, I beg your forgiveness towards my misunderstanding.

The Wolf Guardians']The Commonwealth values all life, especially sentient life, and their rights to, as the saying goes, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Furthermore, "what goes around, comes around," and the pseudo-Newton's-third-law are philosophies. Philosophy does not necessarily mean spirituality in any way. In this case, they are simply ways of living, nonspiritually, in the case of the rather agnostic Commonwealth. We find your attempt to duck around morals, or possibly your personal lack of morals, deplorable.In referrandum to your seemingly impolite memorandum, I must clarify my usage of 'spiritual mumbo jumbo' is solely used citing this occasion:
...and the ever popular (in Norderia, at least) concept of wu-wei...This 'wu-wei' sounds ephemeral and surely no way to run a nation. Regarding our independant morals, they are purely and simply defined as What Is Best For Our People and have functioned despite hard weather and depressions for some time now. Thank you very much.

We perceive that you did not bother to ask what "wu-wei" meant. It could, in fact, be exactly the same thing as "what goes around, comes around", only in a different language. Just because it is in a different language does not mean that it is spiritual. I admit that it may well be, but perhaps you should ask before leaping to conclusions and essentially insulting another culture. At the very least, you could have stated it better. "Spiritual mumbo jumbo" is hardly diplomatic. Even if it is spiritual, saying that could, indeed, be interpreted as an insult against the basis of their society.

One rule the Commonwealth trys very hard to live by: "Don't ASSUME. It makes an ASS out of U and ME." Corny, yes. But still a good philosophy to live by.

I personally apologize for the insulting nature of the last missive. However, the Rights of all Life are at the basis of our culture, and I was momentarily taken aback. We respect your sovereignty, and once again would like to apologize for such appalling behavior, and would like to emphasize that that behavior was on my own behalf, not that of the Commonwealth.

Diplomacy prevails.

To the Commonwealth: I wish to acknowledge your apology and present one of my own for my assumptions regarding Norderia.

To Norderia: I wish to extend my friendship to you, along with my most sincere apologies for any unintended insult I may have presented you.

To both nations, I must beg forgiveness, as I have been recently deprived of all close advisors through a terrorista/revolutionarista attack which had to be dealt with immediately by the Coverup Cops.

Presidentia Case

Starmericana

Starmericana']Correct, I thank you for the correction. However, we must acknowledge that the term '3rd world nation' has now become broadly usable as an extremely poor and/or backwards nation. So for the interest solely of this article, I beg your forgiveness towards my misunderstanding.

I cannot support a proposal with such blatant failures to use proper termonology. We see the drafting stage as an important stage of the proposal's developement, and failures in termonology should be addressed there. In this case, the term used decides to take a term created from politics, turned into a stereotype, and then expands to create new terms based upon this stereotype. We have provided alternative terms (such as, economically undeveloped) that have a gentler connotation to them, a greater historical and economic accuracy, and a more formal purpose to them. We feel that this term is much more satisfactory and do not accept "good enough" as an argument when we have indicated it is far from a good claim.

We find the decision to use the term "3rd world" to define the undeveloped to be demeaning. It reminds us of the day when the societies of nations were divided distinctly into different classes. I'm sure many disliked being called "3rd class" as it suggested they were lesser beings rather than they were worse off (as poor would indicate). 3rd world brings with it the same loaded connotations.

Forgottenlands: I apologize, however, I had not meant this to constitute a complete proposal, but merely a sounding board for possible future proposals. Your advice and enlightenment is duly noted, as is your exceedingly polite tone. /sarcasm.

There is nothing of any spiritual value in Norderia. Indeed, such practices are allowed, but they are rare. Wu-wei is the idea that an action of good intention begets an action of bad intention, and vice versa. For every action, there will be another action, and while it may not be diametrically opposed to the first action, it will be of a similar impact, and a dissimilar intention.

In your case, such an abhorrent mistreatment of foreign nationals to serve your own greed-driven desires will most certainly come back to haunt you in times to come. When comes the day that the very people you mistreat today have the chance to impact your life, I am not so certain that they would be as forgiving as you might hope. There is no moral imperitive that makes me think in such a manner. The knowledge that nature (read: the very circadian rhythm of the world) will see that all debts are repaid in kind is enough to ensure that Norderia treats the world with respect and honor.

We agree most strongly with the representatives of Starmericana. We also note that many in poor countries are willing to endure sweatshop labour, in order to earn money for their families. As ever, we're saddened by the liberal devotion to abolishing such things as poverty, oppression, and employment.

~The Sub-Vizier
Deputy Ambassador

We agree most strongly with the representatives of Starmericana. We also note that many in poor countries are willing to endure sweatshop labour, in order to earn money for their families. As ever, we're saddened by the liberal devotion to abolishing such things as poverty, oppression, and employment.

~The Sub-Vizier
Deputy Ambassador

Gruenberg agrees with Starmericana. I am vindicated.

Gruenberg agrees with Starmericana. I am vindicated.
We agreed with you on voting for the "UN Education Act", and against the "Hearing Impaired Aid Act".

Therefore, you must be evil fucks.

~Rono Pyandran
Chief of Fucking Staff

We agreed with you on voting for the "UN Education Act", and against the "Hearing Impaired Aid Act".

Therefore, you must be evil fucks.

~Rono Pyandran
Chief of Fucking Staff

I mean vindicated in that such a proposal would be an atrocious attack on human rights. Not simply Gruenberg = badevildierothellburn.

We agree most strongly with the representatives of Starmericana. We also note that many in poor countries are willing to endure sweatshop labour, in order to earn money for their families. As ever, we're saddened by the liberal devotion to abolishing such things as poverty, oppression, and employment.

~The Sub-Vizier
Deputy AmbassadorThank you for the support of my specific point of view, despite the many high level charges being levelled against it.

Presidentia Case
DMS

Starmericana']To adress your points...
#1. Slavery has been firmly abolished in Starmericana for the explicit reason that it is not economically or politically sound. Any nation using slavery as a basis for their economy is certain to undergo a revolution or economy breakdown.
#2. While parliamentary governments are well and good, how exactly do they know how to directly influence the people? With the exceedingly high amount of pure bureaucratic red tape, it's almost impossible to deal with any issue that relates to the people.
#3. Schools are the fundamental building blocks of Starmericana, without them, the entire specialized work system of our and many other nations would not exist, leading us straight back to the Stone Age.

Our extremely popular policy in Starmericana (as are all of the policies) is to ignore the spiritual mumbo jumbo that you speak of.

Parliamentary governments directly influence the people by being elected by the people. For this to work, the people must be willing to govern themselves. There need not be an excess of "bureaucratic red tape" if the parliament is designed with efficiency in mind. Quick decisions, in any case, are not always the wisest ones.

The broader source of the Republic's disdain for a proposal such as this, however, is that Krioval is a technologically advanced nation, and as such, we find "sweatshops" to be detrimental to our national economy. Considering that as short a time as ten generations ago most Kriovalians went shirtless and carried pikes, it is possible for any nation to devote significant resources to industrialization, becoming a more desirable trade partner to any nation wishing to establish a strong international economy.

Ambassador Jevo Telovar
City of Neo Tyros
Republic of Krioval

Considering that as short a time as ten generations ago most Kriovalians went shirtless and carried pikes, it is possible for any nation to devote significant resources to industrialization, becoming a more desirable trade partner to any nation wishing to establish a strong international economy.
OOC: Considering that ten generations is approximately 250 years, and 250 years ago was just prior to the RL Industrial Revolution, this isn't really that surprising. Yes, most western European nations were beyond bare torsos and pikes, but not that far.

IC: Yes, and the reverse can happen in at little as a few weeks. You're never so far from barbarity that it can't happen to you.

Anegri Favon
UN Rep for the Remnants of Enn

While parliamentary governments are well and good, how exactly do they know how to directly influence the people?

Most of us democracy advocates really prefer it the other way round.

If I understand the representative of Starmericana correctly, he's asking for a practical reason against exploiting undeveloped countries. One reason is that exploitation can lead to terrorism. Exploitation breeds resentment, and if enough people resent you for long enough, some of them will do something about it.

My own fine nation, Razat, has been victimized by exploiters and responded with violence.

Razat has a point and while the Cuation government has no objection to exploiting the poor or troubled nations for our own profit, nor keeping them from turning into economic or military threats. However any attempt to allow sweat shops as law of the UN will probably not work due to a sizeable human right contingent in the UN. Be great if such a thing was a passed but I really do doubt it.

Sun Loyalds
Diplomat to the UN