NationStates Jolt Archive

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/frisbeeteria/modedit.jpgIt's not common for us to Stick a thread which starts off being critical about the proposal At Vote, but in this case there was no other thread being discussed. Therefore, this can be considered an "Unofficial" Official Topic.


It's commonly held that The Montreal Protocol (http://hq.unep.org/ozone/Montreal-Protocol/Montreal-Protocol2000.shtml) is one of the best treaties administered by UNEP - and possibly one of the best international agreements of modern times. And the idea of the NSUN doing something similar seems perfectly possible.

However, the current proposal in queue is NOT adequate.

Help Prevent Ozone Depletion

A resolution to increase the quality of the world's environment, at the expense of industry.

Category: Environmental

Industry Affected: All Businesses

Proposed by: The Black Market HQ

Description: For too long humans have been emitting chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) which effect the ozone that protects us. Most of CFCs come from the industry. If CFCs continue to be emitted we will not have enough ozone to protect us.

Ozone protects us, it prevents the majority of UV(Ultra-Violet) rays from reaching our surface. Too many UV rays and you get skin cancer.

The Ozone is depleted so much over the south pole and the north pole that almost 100% of UV rays reach the surface.

If we don't stop emitting CFCs the 'hole'(area of significantly depleted ozone) will continue to grow until it covers the entire earth.


Therefore all businesses must reduce emitions of CFCs by 50% within five years and 90% within thirty years. It is still possible for businesses to work effectively even though they have to reduce the amount of gas they release.

If there is a reduction in CFCs, the ozone will stop depleting, there will be a significant reduction in skin cancer and therefore a reduction in medical costs. It will also help endangered animals as animals suffer from the same problem.

Basically by reducing CFC emitions we make the world a better place.

Approvals: 126 (Errinundera, The Isle of Bute, RacconTown, Arhkonnius, Adamzonia, New Britannian kingdom, Elghinn, Logic-land, Arkaria, Upenzi, Espaniam, Eyceland, Ellenburg, Brania, Rhodesia Newydd, Skwirltopia, Jed Scott, Erith Avlantia, Ace Pilots, Tenmark, Bargwann, Mannana, Viitasaari, Cornflake Gremlins, Manussa, Gaiah, Hormigo, Wyniard, Northern habamastan, Yandall, Katiiland, ElJefe, Judgement Sound, The Isle of Duckia, Lisergicanabis, Miriana, The Soul Harvestor, Gregstoniasrevenge, General M Bison, Mark and Grace, Johnsvillia, Desadarium, Lymoria, His Exalted Justicar, Hoven, Palorrin, StarcoreZach, Aetheronian Republics, Wolololia, Petisolandia, Henrilandia, Twilight Union, Spaz Land, Seemannia, Bellaben, Underhive, Penguingdom, Koebenhavn, Binzer, Mr God, Umimimi, Cheason, Maineiacs, The Teeple of Doom, Kursania, Warta Endor, East Gramscistan, Mancialcha, Dinglebad, My Left Nad, Buddome, Cape Isles, Lenticularis, Camini, UKDanistan, Budingerschik, Intergalactica III, Sorgloss, Mandy Sue, Chandelier, HappyValley0012, Melawati, Matteh Island, StoneBrewing, The Derrak Quadrant, USanada, Donkistan, Amphioxus, Athesitica, Whisky and Gasoline, Caraz, Martinbia, The Black Market HQ, The MCC Federation, Alexandersom, The Talisman, Hip-hoppers, McCreary, New Tachbe, Armistria, Welsh Rabbits, The Grey Messiah, The Risen Christ, Brong-Ahafo, People of Iraqistan, Pitufina, Corellisi, Swanness, Niy, Aveous, Diddly Squitt, The Belima, Zegota, New Thomasus, Tirgovici, Nikandreia, Arden Hills, HeebsWithChutspa, Roboczechnyrica, Eisenherz, Pemberley Dwellers, The Sun and Stars, Eve the First, Jediwookiee, Nietszcheian, Kings21117)

Status: Quorum Reached: In Queue!

For the moment, let's put aside the entirely arbitrary requirements (they don't really make any sense), the terrible burden on developing nations and lack of redress for this, and the atrocious spelling, format and organization of the proposal. It's based on fundamentally unsound science.

When it talks about "CFCs", what it means is chlorofluorocarbons (freons). Yet these do not hold a monopoly on ozone depletion. Halons are just as damaging. These are bromofluorocarbons. They are not CFCs as defined by this proposal, so they are not banned. This proposal does not stop ozone depletion - it just ducks around it!

In fact, it doesn't even do that. It's entirely reasonable to define hydrochlorofluorocarbons and hydrobromofluorocarbons as separate from "CFCs". For example, the Montreal Protocol does this exactly. It has nine categories of ODS (ozone depleting substance):
- chlorofluorocarbons
- bromofluorocarbons
- other fully halogenated CFCs
- carbon tetrachloride
- methyl chloroform
- hydrofluorocarbons
- hydrobromocarbons
- methyl bromide
- bromochloromethane

At most three of these are prohibited by this proposal; more likely, just the one.

This is a woefully inadequate proposal that should be voted down in the interests of the environment.

Of course, it won't be, and I'll be lectured by "environmentalists" as to how I hate nature...

A Ceoranan UN page stands up, whispers a query to Ambassador Lopez, gets a nod in return, retrieves a large megaphone from the closet, takes the elevator down to the General Assembly room, and begins a long-winded rant about how right the representative from Golgothastan is in regards to this proposal.

Half an hour later, there is no doubt in anyone's mind what the Ceoranan position on this proposal is, although everyone's ears are ringing slightly.

As the honorable representative of Golgothastan began to speak, the members of the Ausserland delegation listened attentively. This is a member who rarely takes the floor and seems to do so only when he has something truly worthwhile to contribute. By the time he got to "hydrochlorofluorocarbons", their jaws had dropped. Ausserlanders aren't exactly famous for their knowledge of environmental matters.

As the honorable representative of Golgothastan resumed his seat, Ambassador Ahlmann leaped to her feet and yelled into the microphone: "Yeah! What he said!"

;)

Since we live beyond the intended planet (that human world) this proposal would support helping we find it not in the interest of the UN to support a single planet. There are more out there that need the same support as this one does in this area or some other area thus why single out just one problem on one world and deal with it. As the UN is suppose to help all it's members not just certain ones. This seems to focus on that single group of members at some cost to those not in that group...

We hear the call for national sovernity all the time well we believe that planets must first take care of themselves before they move out looking for more problems off their world. Or seeking help from outsiders as they first must show some effort to protect themselves from their own stupidity and bad actions.

Who knows maybe this universe would be better off without all those humans in it. Then again we can probably say it for any group of people as they all have faults and in time will pay for them. Some will just do it faster than others and all we can do is pray they don't take us with them when they go.

Mindi Lessone,
Minister of Science Zeldon

This is a woefully inadequate proposal that should be voted down in the interests of the environment.

It seems that a growing number of woefully inadequate proposals are reaching quorum as of late--probably due to many new players willing to do telegram campaigning, but not willing to do proposal drafting. Unfortunately, a good percentage of these proposals, including this one, are deemed legal by the moderators.

I really hate voting against Resolutions I would probably like having, were they not teh suck.

Ugh.

While we are frustrated by the declaration that there is evidence of an ozone hold developing over the poles (OOC: which sounds heavily like a metagaming violation, but whatever), we are in full agreement with the representative of Golgothastan.

However, the passage of this resolution is not a total disaster. While its science is poor and its timeframes are questionable, its failure to address other ozone depleting substances leaves room for the UN to address its failings in the future without the necessity of repeal.

That said, we agree with our fellow representatives that it would be best if this resolution didn't pass in the first place and encourage our fellow ambassadors to vote against this resolution, to spread the true science behind ozone depletion, and to find ways to spearhead a more sufficient proposal

We would also like to nominate this proposal for a PoSP Scientific Achievement Award.

On a side note, has anyone yet contacted the ambassador of The Black Market HQ. We've proven before that sometimes a proposal with scientific failings can be encouraged enough to be withdrawn in favor of a scientifically accurate proposal. Our discussion with Starcra II, despite having nearly a month of opportunity, did not really begin until his/her proposal was nearly up for vote. If we had focused on the problems of the proposal earlier, it is possible we could've avoided the disaster of it passing. Perhaps we can try to explain the failings of Black Market HQ's proposal to him in hopes that he will remedy these issues and bring forth an improved proposal. We have 3 days to investigate this hope. We should not waste it.

Edit: done

OOC _ I'll have to dig out the proposal on this topic that I started drafting a few months ago, for possible use as a suggested alternative to this one: It got put on hold back then because it was already somewhat over the maximum length allowed even without a detailed list of the chemicals to be restricted, and I couldn't decide what to cut... and then, of course, I got side-tracked by other topics...
I suppose I'll have to end up leaving the detailed list for a committee to determine.

Just to be certain, I checked with scientists in Cluichabad, and they assure me that there is no evidence of any hole in the ozone layer over Antarctic Oasis (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?).

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

Your scientists are good at getting rid of evidence I suppose? :p

I think I can safely say that the problem of ozone is one of migration and relocation. Clearly we have too much ozone as it is. I liked it better when the stuff would just live in the high upper atmosphere and not visiting us in our cities at ground level.

Personally I would think that a better solution is the pro-active one. Perhaps creating blimps that would go into the ozone layer and spark up some more ozone? I mean making ozone is not rocket science.

CFCs and the Ozone layer? What the hell is this? 1991?

Should we all dance around in parachute pants listening to M.C. Hammer and get designs carved into our buzz-cuts and drink invisible cola? And you know something else? I hear the New Kids on the Block might be gay ...

http://funkdiggityfresh.com/images/postpics/hammerdance.gif
"Can't touch dis!"

Last stab at a legality challenge:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11492243&postcount=9

I'm not going to make a "from now on" ruling without consulting other mods, but yeah, there's a good chance that GFDA at least should have been bounced. Stating effects as percentages over time is a sort of Game Mechanics violation, as there is an expectation that those actual figures should be used. Since only the few know the actual effect (and you're VERY unlikely to guess right), it's a Mechanics issue.
That would seem to suggest that "Therefore all businesses must reduce emitions of CFCs by 50% within five years and 90% within thirty years" is illegal.

(As an aside, just rereading that...."emitions"? For the love of fuck :mad: )

Therefore, I'd ask that the mods do at least consider whether this sort of system is illegal.

Forgive my impatience, but as this goes to vote tomorrow, it's obviously a matter of some urgency. I have sent a GHR in about the above. Hopefully there'll be a mod ruling tonight.

I mean does this reward or recognize people or businesses or industries that are environmentally sound?

No once again, it's negative and look for random bad guys and go after them instead of working together to create a better world.

Also most of this is theory not proven fact. And we're having policies without any facts behind it.

Let's waste our time and money on better things...

Forgive my impatience, but as this goes to vote tomorrow, it's obviously a matter of some urgency. I have sent a GHR in about the above. Hopefully there'll be a mod ruling tonight.Didn't seem to take. Sorry about that.

We're now at vote. Guess how I voted? Go on, guess.

As President and Representative of Tzorsland, I find this resolution very reasonable and we intend to vote ... why hello there Mr. Prime Minister. Yes I know just call you the Master. What do you mean that this resolution is a sinkload of manure that would stat wank our nation into the dark ages? Stop trying that "I am the Master and you will obey me" routine on me. Please put down that tissue compression eliminator.

Tzorsland votes NAY.

I need a drink.

It is my opinion that this proposal is far too nonspecific and, as the word is, fluffy, to be any good. It makes no provision for countries in their early stages who require, as unlikeable as it is, dirty industry for their growth. We also acknowledge that it also does not define all of the individual items that are hazardous, but merely touts "CFCs are bad," as people have done before. Really, I don't feel this is a bad idea, but this is one very bad proposal. In the name of the Commonwealth, I cast our vote no.

*snip*Leaving aside for now your scheme to infiltrate Miss Casandra into my government, can I just ask: um, your prime minister outranks your president? :confused:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f235/HoratioSulla/catgirl3.jpg

Okay, now that I got that one off my chest, its time to state that the Palentine emphatically votes no on this piece of S**T, called a resolution. Firstly, the Palentine happens to be in the Antarctic, and we certianly haven't noticed any bloody holes in the ozone. Secondy, I may not be a scientist, but I certainly would say the scientific facts here appear to be a bunch of Bupkiss. (OOC:If you want some science facts read the book published by the Cato Institute Apocylpse Not, by Ben Bolch and Harold Lyons). And lastly, we would love to see how this will be enforced, without wrecking the economies of the UN member Nations, and turning them into a buch of granola munching luddites!
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

My favorite part is all the skin cancer polar bears get thru 3 inches of fur. Do me a favor, go outside with a down comforter wrapped around you and tell me what a nice UV tan you get. And i have to see a cite on 100% UV getting thru on both poles. I call major bullshit. The ozone hole will grow big enough to cover the whole earth? Cite? I call bullshit again. While it may have been written with the best of intentions i dont support bills filled with nonsence.

allrite first off my pos is that this proposal is written fine by me i really find it scientifically correct in a few aspects, as for it breaking any rules of the game i find that it dosent. i mean correct me if im wrong but manny of the rules if followed by the book would null and void most every proposal you could put out there. and the only reason why most of the rules were made from the best myself and my country can surmize is to protect other's political views from being ganged up opoin in the real world i mean serriously to say it breaks a rule when it dosent talk about leaders or anything else is ridiculous. next i am a science buff i personally enjoy reading about science and other matters relateing to that and history. now if you can grant that this is a simulator and given that we are homosapients for the most part then i cant see the deal why we cant agree on an issue that just seems to overlap a looked over real world issue. its not like this is a hot button topic anyway for everyone whos posted all the esteemed delegates seem to be fed up with non hot button issues. now you say it dosent make sence but as far as everything gose between real life and the game why not make the ozone a enviromental factor i mean serriously. oh and btw UV rays are in outerspace naturally without a sun. also some planets can emit them so i personally think this is a relevent issue just from thoughs facts alone that you dont need a star to get your ass cooked from UV rays.

thank you for hearing me, I vote to rest but rest ashured i refuse to stay silent for long.

~The Dleagate Of GreenHamland~

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f235/HoratioSulla/catgirl3.jpg

OOC: TG that to every delegate that voted for this turd. :p

OOC: Are you writing like that just to piss us off? If so, then you are staggeringly brilliant.

as for it breaking any rules of the game i find that it dosent.
That's no longer relevant - it can't be deleted now, and by virtue of being allowed to go to vote, it is legal.

i mean correct me if im wrong but manny of the rules if followed by the book would null and void most every proposal you could put out there.
You are wrong. Perfectly possible to write a legal proposal.

and the only reason why most of the rules were made from the best myself and my country can surmize is to protect other's political views from being ganged up opoin in the real world i mean serriously to say it breaks a rule when it dosent talk about leaders or anything else is ridiculous.
Don't understand this, but from what I think you're saying...there's more to the rules than the Ideological Ban and RL Reference clauses.

next i am a science buff i personally enjoy reading about science and other matters relateing to that and history.
Evidently you're not a "not writing like a fucking retard" buff.

now if you can grant that this is a simulator and given that we are homosapients for the most part then i cant see the deal why we cant agree on an issue that just seems to overlap a looked over real world issue.
Again, don't understand, but that this is a simulation is irrelevant. Laws should still make sense - as should comments on them.

its not like this is a hot button topic anyway for everyone whos posted all the esteemed delegates seem to be fed up with non hot button issues.
Oh? On what do you base that wild unfounded assertion?

now you say it dosent make sence but as far as everything gose between real life and the game why not make the ozone a enviromental factor i mean serriously.
I'm beginning to understand why you feel this proposal makes "sence".

Suffice it to say, some of us disagree, and given we can spell complicated scientific terms like "goes" and "does", we're right.

oh and btw UV rays are in outerspace naturally without a sun.
Totally fucking irrelevant, but ok.

also some planets can emit them so i personally think this is a relevent issue just from thoughs facts alone that you dont need a star to get your ass cooked from UV rays.
Yes, you do, because the amount coming in from outer space is going to be negligible compared to the amount coming from the Sun. Which is besides the point anyway, because what you're essentially suggesting is that if we made the Sun disappear, we'd still have a problem.

So, I have a suggestion. You go wait for the Sun to burn out, and then come back laugh at me. Take a dictionary while you wait.

thank you for hearing me, I vote to rest but rest ashured i refuse to stay silent for long.
Ok, now I just know you're doing this to annoy us.

Could someone who can spell words with more than five letters have a try?

The delegate from the Foleyan area simply would like to state that the idea of this resolution is very good, and indeed anyone with common sense would want to support it.

That being said, however, I regret to say that I cannot support a resolution whose premise is that we stop depleting the ozone, without giving concrete measures as to how. With amendments, this could be a very good and solid proposal. But as it stands right now, this proposal is a dream.

We, the Foleyans, must vote against, with the understanding that it is not the concept we oppose, it is the plan.

allrite first off my pos is that this proposal is written fine by me i really find it scientifically correct in a few aspects, as for it
*Chainsaw roar*

My Commonwealth for a comma...and a few shift key presses, maybe a spellcheck, a fact check, a reality check, and an attitude check.

The Free land of Left Socks agrees that this is a dangerous resolution. And wishes to add the following:

Left Socks is a nation that thrives on its environmental splendor. As such a nation our industry is already heavily regulated. Our government puts heavy restrictions on the release of CFCs as well as other pollutants. To ask these already regulated companies to reduce there CFCs out put by 50% is a cost prohibitive proposal. While the most egregiously polluting companies around the world will still be gross polluters, only 50% less so.

As the UN delegate from The Free Land of Left Socks I feel that such an intuitive should set standard levels of acceptable pollution rather then asking for a blanket reduction. It should also take into consideration the cost and potential economical impact for smaller upstart nations.

Thank You,

Fredrick Redbluff
UN Delegate for the Freeland of Left Socks

That being said, however, I regret to say that I cannot support a resolution whose premise is that we stop depleting the ozone, without giving concrete measures as to how. With amendments, this could be a very good and solid proposal. But as it stands right now, this proposal is a dream.But ... but ... I thought the proposal was "very good," and "anyone with common sense would want to support it"? I'm confused ... then again I'm a Kennyite, so I don't know what to tell you.

The proposal itself is sound, but the writing is quite poor, and last I checked, that matters.. Right? Anyway, I doubt anyone uses CFCs anymore. Those are dumb.. and bad. Also, while I admire the slow, gradual phase-out idea here, it's kinda silly since a lot of UN issues have gotten voted in despite being impossible to implement.

The proposal itself is sound, but the writing is quite poor, and last I checked, that matters.. Right? Anyway, I doubt anyone uses CFCs anymore. Those are dumb.. and bad. Also, while I admire the slow, gradual phase-out idea here, it's kinda silly since a lot of UN issues have gotten voted in despite being impossible to implement.
So what you're saying is the proposal should be more unrealistic in its mandates, just because it can?

Oh, no! The ReadNothings are winning again! BLAST!

*begins speaking into an unseen communicator*

Yes, Alpha Elect. That's right, Alpha Elect. Yes, we must cut our already ridiculously clean industry's output in half, Alpha Elect. I'm... I'm very sorry, Alpha Elect... I don't think there's anything we can do, Alpha Elect...

*trails off as he wanders out of the room, still apologizing to the Alpha*

Although Pyandran struggled to hear everything the CWG representative mumbled to...himself?...he did catch the line, "Yes, we must cut our already ridiculously clean industry's output in half."

Leaning over, he said, "Well, actually, you'd be better off doing the opposite. If we double our CFC output now, then five years down the line this resolution still doesn't cause any problems."

Midori Kasgi-Nero listens intently and makes her judgement.

"having read this proposal which looks like it belongs in the bad old days of the NSUN I would like to announce that we are voting against it as it is now at vote.

our reasons are plentiful. for starters the time scale is unrealistic. how can you expect a poor or developing nation to comply with this when a rich nation would have serious bother cutting its CFC output by 50% in five years.

this is also on top off badly thought out environmmental resolutions that nations already have to deal with"

Wolfgang's ear twitches at the Gruenberg Ambassador's idea. He whispers back, "We cannot knowingly and intentionally spew toxins in our atmosphere... However... " He looked thoughtful. "We could... spew toxins all over our testing equipment..."

OOC: We apologize for whatever continuity/paradox calamities might have occured by 013 leaving the room and then suddenly reappearing to respond to Gruenberg. We sympathize with any universes destroyed, but deny any wrongdoing in such instances.

LMAO

The Wolf Guardians']OOC: We apologize for whatever continuity/paradox calamities might have occured by 013 leaving the room and then suddenly reappearing to respond to Gruenberg. We sympathize with any universes destroyed, but deny any wrongdoing in such instances.

LMAO
OOC: I wouldn't worry about that, do you have any idea how many people have reentered the stranger's bar without leaving first. Hell my main UN character is one of them.

OH, and is there some reason that this hasn't been stickied yet?

Isn't this proposal illegal? Why was it not deleted by mods? It specifically mentions two real world places. I thought that was illegal???

Isn't this proposal illegal? Why was it not deleted by mods? It specifically mentions two real world places. I thought that was illegal???
Are you saying that the NS earth doesn't have north and south poles?

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Everyone, remember that the illegality doesn't matter. Mods have ruled it legal enough. However, that does not mean that the proposal is not crap. Anyone who reads the UN forums will notice that. Perhaps we shoul change the "Debate this issue in the UN forum!" on the UN page to "PLEASE! For the love of God! Debate this issue in the UN forum!" so that more people will.

Despite the fact that the wording is somewhat inadequate,I support this proposal.
If the reason that my esteemed colleagues do not support this proposal is that the wording is inadequate,then we are,again,drowning in semantics while
a real threat exists.
So,one of my learned associates should compose a proposal that they deem potent enough to have the desired effect.
If this proposal,as it now stands,is to rejected,then do so with a plan to replace it with a stronger one.

Let me share my opinion

It's impossible to Prevent Ozone Depletion; all you can do is delay it. You can prevent large ammounts of these chemicals being dumped into the air, but you can't ban these chemicals all together; only chaos will be created from that. The Ozone will only deplete slowly as years pass by. What about the future?

Excuse this idea for being a little weird. Underground cities or above ground environments protected by glass of some sort powered by the heat created from the melting ozone. I do realize that it's a very different idea, but I'm only trying

You raise an excellent point, the protection offered by this proposal is inadequate, yet, if you bother to look, you will notice that I support it. My reason is simple enough: it's better than nothing. Yes it does not cover the entire issue, but right now nothing else is there to provide any sort of solution, so I still support this proposal, and will until a superior proposal is introduced, and I suggest you be the one to write it, since you seem to know a great deal on the subject.

Are you saying that the NS earth doesn't have north and south poles?

Bob Flibble
UN Representative


Lol! I don't know. But maybe we don't call it "the north pole" and "the south pole". Those are real world places right?

Real World Violations

George Bush, Hammas, France, The Michigan Compiled Laws (Annotated), and Smith & Wesson do not exist in the NationStates world. Don't bring them up in Proposals. This includes references to real world documents, movies, and books. This is really easy to grasp and is a "bright line" violation. A Proposal that is wonderfully written, but mentions "the Great Wall of China" will be deleted.

Evidence for real world violation A:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole

Evidence for real world violation B:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole

Maybe it's semantics, but if we have rules, the question becomes will we enforce the rules or not. I've had a proposal deleted for rule violations because of "national sovereignty". This one mentions two real world places and is not deleted. I just thought I'd point that out. Good day everyone!

Vertality']
It's impossible to Prevent Ozone Depletion; all you can do is delay it. You can prevent large ammounts of these chemicals being dumped into the air, but you can't ban these chemicals all together; only chaos will be created from that. The Ozone will only deplete slowly as years pass by. What about the future?


Agreed. With what they are trying to do they might as well try and patch it up themselves, it might be easier.

Are you saying that the NS earth doesn't have north and south poles?

Bob Flibble
UN RepresentativeNo. Our poles are the Left Pole and the Other Left Pole.

No. Our poles are the Left Pole and the Other Left Pole.

Why do I believe that?

No. Our poles are the Left Pole and the Other Left Pole.

And the "hole" in our ozone is actually more of a tear.

No. Our poles are the Left Pole and the Other Left Pole.Why do I believe that?Because this is NS, and it has the ring of truth?!?

And the "hole" in our ozone is actually more of a tear.
Well, if it's only a tear then all we need is a really big needle and thread to sew it back up.

OOC: Look. The mods decided (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11560515&postcount=3162) the pole argument didn't stand up, and it was legal. I didn't get a response on my other legality challenge, but I'm assuming they thought that wasn't sufficient either. It doesn't matter, because by being at vote, this proposal is legal, and it cannot be deleted anyway. What we need to concentrate on now is putting enough of a dent in the voting margin to allow for a repeal.

it's better than nothing.

We vote yes.

The People of Sconchiglioso Zeta.

No, it's not better than nothing! It is nothing! Gaaagh!

*blasts head off with Simulated Destruction gun for third time since joining UN*

We would rather have nothing then this current idea being implemented in any way or form. It is still going to be voted in so might I suggest we all start finding loopholes that means we can ignore this proposal anyway?

Sun Loyalds

We would rather have nothing then this current idea being implemented in any way or form. It is still going to be voted in so might I suggest we all start finding loopholes that means we can ignore this proposal anyway?

Sun Loyalds
The first loophole would seem to be that it's not very comprehensive.

The second that you can double CFC output now, thus meaning in five years you only have to return to your current levels (I think increasing CFC output tenfold is unlikely, but I guess if you can do it...)

The third is to have non-UN nations do CFC-intensive industry for you.

As it stands, I would push for a revision and rewriting of the proposal. It's a nice thought, but right now, it's the equivalent to saying "Let's start pulling money out of our left nostril to improve economy".

Great idea!! How do we do it?--you never told us.

That, in my mind, is very important before deciding how we vote for this. I STRESS that this be revised or amended.

That, in my mind, is very important before deciding how we vote for this. I STRESS that this be revised or amended.
It can't be. There is no means of amending a proposal. Therefore, the only way to change it is to vote it down or later repeal it, and submit a new version.

It can't be. There is no means of amending a proposal. Therefore, the only way to change it is to vote it down or later repeal it, and submit a new version.

Well, that's what I mean.

OOC: Look. The mods decided (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11560515&postcount=3162) the pole argument didn't stand up, and it was legal.

Yea, I know. The person who did the grief should be hung, drawn and quartered ... The rw world violation is not the pole problem but the 100% reference. "The Ozone is depleted so much over the south pole and the north pole that almost 100% of UV rays reach the surface." It's either a RW violation or blatent God Modding, but that's neither here not there.

Let's face it. It's no use debating over who started the bombing. It's clear that this pile of nuclear toxic manure is going to pass from the masses of I only read the resolution's title. Even an immediate repeal (which is bloody unlikely anyway) will not remove the worst passed resolution of the year. This is going to have a drastic impact on all future resolutions. The era of well writen resolutions, it appears is dead.

*The Lolicom delegate stands up*
As a new member to the UN, I must say that my first encounter of a proposal is a saddening and disheartening affair. Also my Science Advisor reports that it is physically impossible for a planet to emit UV rays. Reflect, maybe, but not emit. I, therefore, request that all members of this globally esteemed organisation do all they can to prevent its implementation, or repeal it at the earliest opportunity. This is scientifically inaccurate and imprecise in its wording. Am I to understand that the UN allows gibberish and that the passing of this as a resolution will force gibberish upon the world? As far as my nation can see, this would seem to be the case. I, once again, urge all members to reconsider their votes on this matter. True- the environment is a matter of concern, but dealing with problems in this matter will only cause problems further down the line as old resolutions will need to be repealed and new ones voted in. This takes time and I for one would rather get things right first time. Thank you for listening.
*With that, he sits*

Although Pyandran struggled to hear everything the CWG representative mumbled to...himself?...he did catch the line, "Yes, we must cut our already ridiculously clean industry's output in half."

Leaning over, he said, "Well, actually, you'd be better off doing the opposite. If we double our CFC output now, then five years down the line this resolution still doesn't cause any problems."


Overhearing Pyandran's remark, Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich leans over to his friend, smirking.

We're way ahead of you. We started as soon as this proposal hit quorum.

He slides back into his chair and winks, offering Pyandran a sip from his flask of Cluichstani whiskey.

Yea, I know. The person who did the grief should be hung, drawn and quartered ... The rw world violation is not the pole problem but the 100% reference. "The Ozone is depleted so much over the south pole and the north pole that almost 100% of UV rays reach the surface." It's either a RW violation or blatent God Modding, but that's neither here not there.
It's "hanged", and if by "did the grief" you mean "sent the GHR", that would be me. And the think about 100% isn't a RL reference, because they don't.

Nonetheless, I apologise for actually trying to do something about this, instead of taking your usual productive tactic of whining about people only reading the title and not doing a fucking thing about it. That's proved real successful over the years.

It's "hanged", and if by "did the grief" you mean "sent the GHR", that would be me. And the think about 100% isn't a RL reference, because they don't.

Nonetheless, I apologise for actually trying to do something about this, instead of taking your usual productive tactic of whining about people only reading the title and not doing a fucking thing about it. That's proved real successful over the years.

OOC: I was going to try a GHR myself but saw you'd already beaten me to the punch. You usually do, it seems. I think I've only sent a GHR for one other proposal before you did, though I can't seem to recall which it was. :p

EDIT: And that hanged/hung thing irritates the hell outta me, too. ;)

Although Pyandran struggled to hear everything the CWG representative mumbled to...himself?...he did catch the line, "Yes, we must cut our already ridiculously clean industry's output in half."

Leaning over, he said, "Well, actually, you'd be better off doing the opposite. If we double our CFC output now, then five years down the line this resolution still doesn't cause any problems."Overhearing Pyandran's remark, Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich leans over to his friend, smirking.

We're way ahead of you. We started as soon as this proposal hit quorum.

He slides back into his chair and winks, offering Pyandran a sip from his flask of Cluichstani whiskey.[The tables for both delegations being situated naturally close to the Kennyites' (as all three nations are in the same region), Sammy overhears them and leans over to his Creative Solutions advisor:]

Why is everyone whispering? And have you guys been infiltrating (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Creative_Solutions_Agency#Resolution_.23126:_Fossil_Fuel_Reduction_Act) foreign UN offices or something?

Ok I like the ozone and the environment just as much as the next guy, but this is a horrible idea. First off the benifits were the only thing mentioned in this proposal, which I might add was in a bad format. What about all the negative effects it will have. Businesses will have to pay to fix their emitions, which will cause prices of tthings to go up to pay for it. Now the poor can't afford to have electricity or water cause their bills are too high. Having a country run on nuclear power we rely on the power company to keep prices low so everyone can enjoy.... well light. Who let this guy post this thing anyway.

Despite the fact that the wording is somewhat inadequate,I support this proposal.
If the reason that my esteemed colleagues do not support this proposal is that the wording is inadequate,then we are,again,drowning in semantics while
a real threat exists.
So,one of my learned associates should compose a proposal that they deem potent enough to have the desired effect.
If this proposal,as it now stands,is to rejected,then do so with a plan to replace it with a stronger one.

What real threat? We who live in the Antarctic haven't noticed any appreciable depletion of the ozone. Once again, we have a badly written proposal, addressing a phantom issue. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL GOOD AND PURE, STOP USING RL ISSUES IN NS!!!!! Especially issues based on very shakey or very bad junk science. As for your concern about a stronger proposal to be written insted of this piece of bopkiss, The Palentine shall vote against that one too.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla
Palentine UN Office
ANTARCTIC OASIS

The Delegation of Krieger Vom Donner considers that this proposal should be rejected, first, because it isn't written using the official opening and operative clauses (or the courteous language stated in the UN Rules of Debate).

Furthermore, if the Delegation proposing this Resolution would have taken time to check the Montreal Protocol, submitted under the Vienna's 1987 Convention, and the Kyoto Protocol agreed upon in 1997, to name the most important, they would have noticed that these are more elaborate, state a series of issues completely ignored by The Black Market HQ and are currently being adopted throughout the World. If The Black Market HQ would consider rewriting this proposal to ammend those faults, this Delegation would have no problem voting for it.

The Delegation of Krieger Vom Donner considers that this proposal should be rejected, first, because it isn't written using the official opening and operative clauses (or the courteous language stated in the UN Rules of Debate).Where is it required that resolutions use "official opening and operative clauses"? And where are these "UN Rules of Debate" of which you speak?

Furthermore, if the Delegation proposing this Resolution would have taken time to check the Montreal Protocol, submitted under the Vienna's 1987 Convention, and the Kyoto Protocol agreed upon in 1997, to name the most important, they would have noticed that these are more elaborated, state a series of issues completely ignored by The Black Market HQ and are currently being adopted throughout the World. If The Black Market HQ would consider re-elaborating this proposal to ammend those faults, this Delegation would have no problem voting for it.Montreal Protocol? Vienna Convention? Kyoto Protocols? I don't find any of these in the NSUN list of resolutions (http://www.nationstates.net/-1/page=UN_past_resolutions). Perhaps they were inadvertently omitted?

Mr. Secretary General, esteemed collegues and fellow citizens of the world.

As it is clear that the recklessly proposed resolution "Help Prevent Ozone Depletion" will inevitably pass, I call upon all concerned nations to immediately begin work on revocation and revision of this most unfortunate piece of legislation.

I believe I speak for a majority of my collegues when I say that we are all deeply concerned about the very real and forthcoming consequences of ozone depletion that will most certainly affect our not so future generations. But to simply throw all reason and caution to the wind for the sake of the environment, without enacting a resolution that is based on generally accepted scientific principles is foolish and will ultimately do nothing to help the ozone problem, but will surely destroy many smaller national economies, and create a huge disparity between the first and third worlds.

The random and spurrious requirements proposed (50 percent and 90 percent reductions, over time stages) are far too general, and wrongly assume that all nations are polluting equally, requiring the cleanest industrial country to reduce the same amount as the worlds largest polluters, clearly creating discrepency and inequality.

This resolution will send already fragile third world economies into chaos, further enlarging the gap between the first and third worlds, serving to prolong poverty and instability in those regions, which will only further future political conflicts.

I urge all of us to strongly consider these reprocussions and reconsider this most harmful resolution.

The Honorable Emel e Challouh

The Emirate of Dartoon Ambassador to the United Nations

Wolfgang whimpers. "I admit there is the occasional proposal that makes me not want to read it, though I do anyway. But, this thing's not even that long... would it have been that hard to actually read it? Do the "yes" voters realize the what they'll actually have to do to bring their country into compliance? It's not just a fluffy title that magically does the work for you! This will cost time and money, and, while well meant, it won't help! It's not even possible for some! There's no details!" He blasts his head off with the SD gun for the second time during this topic alone.

OOC: Honestly, if you're going to play the game... PLAY THE GAME. I absolutely hate it when people play any game halfassed. It's one thing if you do that during a single-player game that does not affect anyone else, but when you're playing any multiplayer game, especially a massive multiplayer game, you need to PLAY. You shouldn't be in the UN if you can't devote at least 15 minutes a day to reading the debate about, if nothing else, the resolution at vote. It's really not fair to others who want to really play. Of course, none of the people I'm pissed at are actually going to read this, so, go figure.

Sitting at his chair, President Lucas MacJennings spoke softly, behind the 'big stick' of his nation itself. "It's obvious the poor structure of this article seems to be a big issue. Western Maris itself is against depletion of the ozone, but on a sidenote, I do believe the ozone, last year in fact, slowed, stopped, and assumedly even started repairing itself. However, that may be disreguarded, as this resolution would help reguardless of that situation, and it should not be a dilema to any that the previous information holds a candle. As of now, Western Maris has decided to hold the vote to itself until further notice. The resolution mentions nothing of businesses that emit virturally no CFCs at all. What if a small business runs a single air conditioning unit for a mere four hours a day to cool off? On hot summer's day, this resolution would kill those workers, possibly. There are many unknowns or absurdities. Would hospitals and senior centers be effected? Et cetera." He thought out his next words. "I would highly recommend that this resolution be withdrawn, re-written, then proposed at a later date."


EDIT:
MacJennings sat, listening to the arguements of others for a while. "In lue of what Wolfgang has said, Western Maris may indeed vote against this resolution. Western Maris doesn't wish to spend so much money and sacrifice so much economy to an issue so relatively light. We can't afford to raise our taxes much more. The CFC count will lower with enhancements of technology, I assure you. Maybe not as gradually as you would like, but it will."

Where is it required that resolutions use "official opening and operative clauses"? And where are these "UN Rules of Debate" of which you speak?

Delegation of Omigodtheykilledkenny,

If you could check any UN Resolution (or Draft Resolution, which is the previous step), you'll see that they are written in a specific language, using previously agreed-upon Preambulatory (or Opening) and Operative Clauses. We would list them, but it's the duty of every Delegation to know and act according to them.

If you wish to know more about this subject, I would recommend the reading of this material:

HERE (http://cyberschoolbus.un.org/student/2004/participate.asp)

Review the "Tips for writing a Plan of Action" section. It states the formal aspects that an UN Draft Resolution should cover.

Montreal Protocol? Vienna Convention? Kyoto Protocols? I don't find any of these in the NSUN list of resolutions (http://www.nationstates.net/-1/page=UN_past_resolutions). Perhaps they were inadvertently omitted?

Here is a short brief of the Kyoto Protocol, found on the UN Official Web Page: HERE (http://www.un.org/millennium/law/xxvii-23.htm)

And here's a short brief on the Montreal Protocol, stated during the Vienna Convention (in which the UN Environment Programme formed):

HERE (http://ozone.unep.org/Treaties_and_Ratification/2B_montreal_protocol.asp)

In those, you will notice that there are a series of issues that aren't being addressed by this Draft Resolution, and without them, this first Resolution would be incomplete. My country, for example, is looking for a way to ban the use of ethylene dibromide as a infestation-controlling chemical, because of the environmental hazards it presents, and would like that issue to be addressed in this type of Resolution. Further research would ensure this problem is taken into account.

The Delegation of The Empire of Krieger Vom Donner.

[OOC: Yes, I know what the Montreal and Kyoto protocols are, dumbass. My point was they don't apply to NationStates. I really couldn't care less what Web resources you use in your Model UN Club, or whatever it is; here we abide by the proposal rules (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=420465). The stickies (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=412468) may also be worth the read.]

OOC: LOL! For the record, REAL UN != NATIONSTATES UN, controller of The Empire of Krieger Vom Donner.

[OOC= Omigodtheykilledkenny, don't go calling people dumbass unless you wanna get insulted back. Besides, on the links you submitted me, Preambulatory (or Opening) and Operative Clauses are listed as mandatory Draft Resolution writing guide. Yeah, I'm new to the game, and I didn't know you couldn't just mention real world Resolutions, legislations or whatever. My bad, sue me if you can guess what's my real nationality. I'm playing the game like I should, and if you wanna go doing stuff like you want to, fine, go do it. Meanwhile, I'm taking this seriously and roleplaying cause it helps me practice.

Oh, and my Model UN Club? The WorldMUN, or World Model United Nations, Switzerland 2007. Heard about Beijing last year? Yeah, I won Best Delegate and my University got the most awards. I KNOW MY UN, as you put it, dumbass. =)]

Besides, on the links you submitted me, Preambulatory (or Opening) and Operative Clauses are listed as mandatory Draft Resolution writing guide.They're not mandatory; that's why it's called a "guide."

Oh, and my Model UN Club? The WorldMUN, or World Model United Nations, Switzerland 2007. Heard about Beijing last year? Yeah, I won Best Delegate and my University got the most awards. I KNOW MY UN, as you put it, dumbass. =)]I genuflect before your Supreme Geek Powers, oh great one.

*the representative from Cantape takes the floor*

Dear colleagues, as we have all determined that this moronic, ill written metagaming piece of crap is inevitably going to pass (Courtesy to all of those who only read the title), I suggest that we begin a repeal, we should joint write it here in the forum.... and I propose it be titled "In Order To Protect Fluffy Bunnies"... why, you may ask? Simply because those who read only the title will certainly pass it... I mean, who doesn't want to protect the Fluffy Bunnies...

*the representative resumes his seat and excessive drinking habit*

What real threat? We who live in the Antarctic haven't noticed any appreciable depletion of the ozone. Once again, we have a badly written proposal, addressing a phantom issue. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL GOOD AND PURE, STOP USING RL ISSUES IN NS!!!!! Especially issues based on very shakey or very bad junk science. As for your concern about a stronger proposal to be written insted of this piece of bopkiss, The Palentine shall vote against that one too.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla
Palentine UN Office
ANTARCTIC OASISReally. I mean, didn't anybody read the orientation pack when they started?

NS Earth != RL Earth.

In RL, there are maybe 6.6 billion people from about 200 nations living on a world with a surface area (including oceans) of 509,600,000 km² for an average population density of ~12 per km² (~43 per km² if you deduct the oceans from the available living space).

In contrast, NS has a population of somewhere over 70 trillion people divided among over 100,000 nations. If we were living on RL Earth, we'd have a population density of over 130,000 per km² (~450,000 per km² if you deduct the surface or our oceans, as above). Allemande, with a population of 3.186 billion (at last count) would be only slightly larger than the metro Detroit area, and each person in Allemande would have only 2.2 m² of space! Ridiculous!

For my money, NS Earth is a Niven Ring; the one in Larry Niven's novel Ringworld had a surface area equal to 3 million Earth's. Were NS set on such a megastructure, the population density would be ~0.04 per km² (~0.15 per km², assuming the same 70-30 proportion of ocean to land, which of course might not actually be valid).

Under those conditions, we should worry more about stabilizing the ring and maintaining the shadow screens or the anti-meteor system than the "ozone hole" at two poles that, in fact, don't even exist. ;)

[OOC= Omigodtheykilledkenny, don't go calling people dumbass unless you wanna get insulted back. Besides, on the links you submitted me, Preambulatory (or Opening) and Operative Clauses are listed as mandatory Draft Resolution writing guide. Yeah, I'm new to the game, and I didn't know you couldn't just mention real world Resolutions, legislations or whatever. My bad, sue me if you can guess what's my real nationality. I'm playing the game like I should, and if you wanna go doing stuff like you want to, fine, go do it. Meanwhile, I'm taking this seriously and roleplaying cause it helps me practice.

Oh, and my Model UN Club? The WorldMUN, or World Model United Nations, Switzerland 2007. Heard about Beijing last year? Yeah, I won Best Delegate and my University got the most awards. I KNOW MY UN, as you put it, dumbass. =)]You are new around here, aren't you?

NationStates is not Real Life™. The NationStates United Nations is not the Real Life™ United Nations™. The organizations have different purposes and run in totally different ways. Things that exist in Real Life™ - Microsoft, Coca-Cola, Chrysler-Daimler, Maxwell House, George Bush, NASA, Israel and Palestine, Bloom County, and The Wall Street Journal - don't exist here (although there are exceptions - Coke doesn't exist, but Pepsi does; the Wall Street Journal doesn't exist, but the New York Times might). That means that there's no Kyoto or Montreal Protocol, no Vienna Convention (and, for that matter, no Hague or Geneva Conventions).

I know this takes some getting used to, but it's the way things work in NationStates.

I genuflect before your Supreme Geek Powers, oh great one.
OOC:
I don't. Any real geek worth his salt is fully capable of comprehending that he has moved from one game forum into another.

This is not your WMUN or whatever the heck it was, KvM. This is the NSUN. This is a completely different international game that utilizes the UN as a single aspect of it. Your rules for your competition are irrelevant. The fact that you won some prize is not only irrelevant, but ridiculous to mention. There are players of this game that have been involved in real life politics since before you were born (I guess at the approximate age based on your school references). There are scientists, lawyers, politicians, teachers, environmentalists, car mechanics, bakers, stay at home parents, cab drivers, journalists. There are right wing conservatives, left wing socialists, imperialists, anarchists, communists, fascists. There are intelligent people and stupid people. So far, your comments are slipping you towards being marked in the latter category. Kudos on your prize (sincerely), but only the weak of mind and will are going to be impressed that you won the pony show. RLUN=/=NSUN=/=WMUN. Simple enough. The rules for the others don't apply here.

After all that, welcome to the UN. Hopefully that skill that won you that prize will serve you well here once you learn the layout.

OOC:
I don't. Any real geek worth his salt is fully capable of comprehending that he has moved from one game forum into another.

This is not your WMUN or whatever the heck it was, KvM. This is the NSUN. This is a completely different international game that utilizes the UN as a single aspect of it. Your rules for your competition are irrelevant. The fact that you won some prize is not only irrelevant, but ridiculous to mention. There are players of this game that have been involved in real life politics since before you were born (I guess at the approximate age based on your school references). There are scientists, lawyers, politicians, teachers, environmentalists, car mechanics, bakers, stay at home parents, cab drivers, journalists. There are right wing conservatives, left wing socialists, imperialists, anarchists, communists, fascists. There are intelligent people and stupid people. So far, your comments are slipping you towards being marked in the latter category. Kudos on your prize (sincerely), but only the weak of mind and will are going to be impressed that you won the pony show. RLUN=/=NSUN=/=WMUN. Simple enough. The rules for the others don't apply here.

After all that, welcome to the UN. Hopefully that skill that won you that prize will serve you well here once you learn the layout.

Amen Kiv. In all sincerity, we welcome you to the NSUN, KvM. With your experience in other political clubs in the past, we hope you become interested with this organization and be active here and contribute, once you learn the ropes.

I'll admit Razat hasn't studied the problems of ozone depletion, but given that a large number of the active debators here are from the Antarctic Oasis, and their suntans aren't any darker than mine, I'm inclined to take their word for it when they say there isn't a problem. :p

i agree with Golgothastan and am suprised that it seems this will pass (due to members only reading the title, perhaps)

*the Porlandian representives get up and leave the council, their seats are empty the next day*

OOC:
I don't. Any real geek worth his salt is fully capable of comprehending that he has moved from one game forum into another.

This is not your WMUN or whatever the heck it was, KvM. This is the NSUN. This is a completely different international game that utilizes the UN as a single aspect of it. Your rules for your competition are irrelevant. The fact that you won some prize is not only irrelevant, but ridiculous to mention. There are players of this game that have been involved in real life politics since before you were born (I guess at the approximate age based on your school references). There are scientists, lawyers, politicians, teachers, environmentalists, car mechanics, bakers, stay at home parents, cab drivers, journalists. There are right wing conservatives, left wing socialists, imperialists, anarchists, communists, fascists. There are intelligent people and stupid people. So far, your comments are slipping you towards being marked in the latter category. Kudos on your prize (sincerely), but only the weak of mind and will are going to be impressed that you won the pony show. RLUN=/=NSUN=/=WMUN. Simple enough. The rules for the others don't apply here.

After all that, welcome to the UN. Hopefully that skill that won you that prize will serve you well here once you learn the layout.

OOC:

Well, first, thanks for the welcome (even tho' it's been not quite... hmmmm... welcoming). Mentioning the prize was my bad, actually. This isn't real life, but I expected that UN politics would be the same, here and in China. Again, my bad. I guess I'm paying up through the noob status.

Didn't know how the system worked, didn't get any orientations on how it would. However, ignorance doesn't excuse from misbehavior, and again, my bad and apologies to everyone. I guess I just have to get accustomed to this system.

Oh, and probably your estimations are all wrong, Kivisto. But, hell, everybody thinks whatever he or she likes to think. WMUN might be a game, but it's taken very seriously by every academical institution imparting knowledge on diplomatic excercise. I invite you to look further into it before treating it so lightly.

Thank you.

Now, back to the game:

Fellow NSUN Delegates:

The nation of Krieger vom Donner thinks that approving this Draft Resolution is sheer nonsense. Additional to the writing problems expressed in previous interventions, benefits, in no way, relate to the humongous losses in our nations' economies. For example, we could just spend some money in enacting an ordinance for mandatory industrial waste & smoke processing, and save millions of manufacturing and services corporations of bankruptcy -which will actually occur when their operations are diminished by 50%-.

Furthermore, by enacting a mandatory air conditioning filtering law, we would obtain better results. I know that in my nation it would be much more effective, because summers are long, temperatures over 30ºC and air conditioning is the only way of not becoming bacon while living your regular life.

i agree with Golgothastan and am suprised that it seems this will pass (due to members only reading the title, perhaps)
That and it's an environmental resolution and the UN has a bad habit of passing anything in the Environmental category reguardless of quality, just look at Promotion of Solar Panels (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9692882&postcount=123).

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

allrite first off i realize you guys like makeing fun of someone for havein poor writeing skills but jsut to set the record strait im not tryin to piss anyone off. i hate grammar and i can barely spell to save my life. the point i was trying to get accross is that this bill is sound as far as facts are concerned. and being that the UN seems to hate the enviroment i personally belive without a shadow of a doubt that this bill is a great one. and as far as tryin to piss people off if logic makes sence and if careing about the enviroment is bad then hell ill piss you guys off all year! and yes i do extensive reserch before posting anything and no i cant change my spelling habits, but maybe you should look past what is written and look for what is said.

now on to the main part of this is weather this is getting passed or not. frankly if i had all nite i would debate this but i have another life and it dosent evolve arround this simulation. next CFC's are relevent very relevent and by reduceing thoughs say in factorys and use more effecent alternitives not just for the enviroment mind you but for monetary value as well. also its a gradual process five years is a long time literaly all it will need is co operation. frankly the arlternitives to CFC's im shure will be better in the long run...think long term not short.

further more if u want to say something about the way i spell things telegram me id love to annoy the holy hell out of you with even more horrid spelling.

thank you for your time and comments and please allways read between the lines.

OOC: See, part of what bugs me is, YOU'RE SITTING AT A COMPUTER. And, almost EVERY computer has a word processor. If you are not confidant about your writing skills, why don't you write in there, and have the machine make at least the rudimentary corrections? Then copy and paste it. Then we wouldn't be having this part of the conversation. I have nothing against you, I just enjoy the proper use of English. Do not get defensive just because you are not using the tools at your disposal. And, don't knock the debating. We have lives, too. This happens to be a part of it.

IC: "This isn't about the environment. I'm fairly certain that very few, if any, people don't like the environment. This is about the correct way to effect the protection of it. And, about having good legislation on the books. This resolution does not take into effect developing nations that require dirty industries for survival, or the fact that some nations are already so clean that it will be impossible to cut their emission (OOC: for the record, I had to look up the correct spelling of emission... I had two m's... but, I corrected it, since it took all of two seconds to go to m-w.com and do it) in half. There need to be designations for such things. Incomplete legislation should not make it into the books. Unfortunately, it doesn't look as though the major opinion of the debaters matters, since the (most likely) ReadNothings are winning 6,043 to 2,426. Now I have to explain to the Alpha that he has to find a way to reduce our emissions to almost zero."

OOC: I must stress, once again, that we must find a way to increase awareness of the those who do not use the forums that there is, in fact, a forum for... anything, really. My first few weeks in NS were great, but in the past two, it's just gotten ridiculous. Everything and its uncle is being passed regardless of whether or not it's any good.

i hate grammar and i can barely spell to save my life.As long as you can remember "Would you like fries with that?", I'm sure you'll do fine.

Or, I suppose, "Spare change?" would work, too.

the point i was trying to get accross is that this bill is sound as far as facts are concernedGood point. Except that, you know, it isn't. It's a silly move in the NS world, and largely inaccurate in the real one.

and being that the UN seems to hate the enviroment i personally belive without a shadow of a doubt that this bill is a great oneGuilt by association fallacy (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html).

and as far as tryin to piss people off if logic makes sence and if careing about the enviroment is bad then hell ill piss you guys off all year!Um. Hooray? See, this is part of why grammar is important. It lets people know just what the fuck you're talking about.

and yes i do extensive reserch before posting anything and no i cant change my spelling habits, but maybe you should look past what is written and look for what is said.Congratulations, I guess.

now on to the main part of this is weather this is getting passed or not. frankly if i had all nite i would debate this but i have another life and it dosent evolve arround this simulation.Well, thank you for gracing us with your divine presence. Surely we are humbled by that two minutes you spent slapping this tripe together.

next CFC's are relevent very relevent and by reduceing thoughs say in factorys and use more effecent alternitives not just for the enviroment mind you but for monetary value as well.This is where that thing called "proof" would be really swanky.

also its a gradual process five years is a long time literaly all it will need is co operation. frankly the arlternitives to CFC's im shure will be better in the long run...think long term not short.When did "belief" become the same thing as "fact"?

further more if u want to say something about the way i spell things telegram me id love to annoy the holy hell out of you with even more horrid spelling. Thanks for the offer, but I'd hate to take away from your very important work and have you spend more time with this simulation. After all, you don't have time to use a spell checker, surely you don't have time to flood telegram boxes with gibberish.

thank you for your time and comments and please allways read between the lines.Oh, you have nothing to worry about. Plenty has been read, I'm sure.

OOC: Hack, you... are... a... GOD... *bows down* I'm not worthy to be in your insightful presence! (lol) No, seriously, I like you. You're levelheaded. Common sense is rapidly becoming extinct on this world.

...

I suppose there's a REASON you're a moderator. (lol)

The Wolf Guardians']I had to m's...
two:p

BLOODY HELL! *blasts head off yet again*
AND... corrected. Gah. See, that's what I get for typing tOO fast. Dammitall.
Say... you looked for errors on purpose, didn't you? Grrr... :headbang:
Hmm... I wish there was a smiley that shot itself through the head. I'd use it all the time. Brick walls just aren't traumatizing enough for such a gratuitous error. Especially while whining hypocritically about such errors. Sigh... one more for good measure: :headbang:
Wolfgang 013 simulated death count: 6

Just to be certain, I checked with scientists in Cluichabad, and they assure me that there is no evidence of any hole in the ozone layer over Antarctic Oasis (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?).

Then maybe you and the other nations on the Earth concerned collectively simply aren't using enough of the ozone-depeleting chemicals yet to have a significant effect... in which case the cost to your economies for stopping using those chemicals shouldn't be very high...

Really. I mean, didn't anybody read the orientation pack when they started?

NS Earth != RL Earth.

In RL, there are maybe 6.6 billion people from about 200 nations living on a world with a surface area (including oceans) of 509,600,000 km² for an average population density of ~12 per km² (~43 per km² if you deduct the oceans from the available living space).

In contrast, NS has a population of somewhere over 70 trillion people divided among over 100,000 nations. If we were living on RL Earth, we'd have a population density of over 130,000 per km² (~450,000 per km² if you deduct the surface or our oceans, as above). Allemande, with a population of 3.186 billion (at last count) would be only slightly larger than the metro Detroit area, and each person in Allemande would have only 2.2 m² of space! Ridiculous!

For my money, NS Earth is a Niven Ring; the one in Larry Niven's novel Ringworld had a surface area equal to 3 million Earth's. Were NS set on such a megastructure, the population density would be ~0.04 per km² (~0.15 per km², assuming the same 70-30 proportion of ocean to land, which of course might not actually be valid).

Under those conditions, we should worry more about stabilizing the ring and maintaining the shadow screens or the anti-meteor system than the "ozone hole" at two poles that, in fact, don't even exist. ;)

OOC: or the NS nations are spread across multiple, "parallel" or "alternative" Earths (each of which probably has N & S Poles) -- as well as various other worlds -- instead, as a number of nations already RP...

OOC: Please don't start bragging about how bad you are at spelling. My bad spelling skills have been refined over the years ever since I entered a spelling contest in the 7th grade and got knocked out by the word "island." (Spell it like it sounds right? What's that silent "s" doing there? It's "eye land" not "is land.") Take it to Word “for all your fancy quotation mark needs” or download the Google tool bar (which I have at home) that comes with a spell checker for your text boxes. There is no excuse for a badly spelled resolution.

IC: I would like to present my aide, the wonderful Amber Red-Brown who is from the Antartic Oasis. As you can clearly see she is not exceptionally sunburnt as the resolution would insist. Bear in mind that in the Antartic (as in the sands of a desert) the rays of the sun are twice effective because the rays also bounce from the ground thus exposing you from above and below!

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL291/1756382/5512569/173876309.jpg

The Meddling Monk rests his case.

(You picked a fnie time to try out the tanning salon Amber!)

Then maybe you and the other nations on the Earth concerned collectively simply aren't using enough of the ozone-depeleting chemicals yet to have a significant effect... in which case the cost to your economies for stopping using those chemicals shouldn't be very high...


Oh, believe me, since this proposal reached quorum, we've been heavily stepping up our use of those chemicals so that, when it passes (and it will, thanks to the mindless fluffies), we can simply cut back our use to our original levels, and lookee here! No effect on us. So then what did this proposal accomplish? Nothing but reckless overuse of CFCs in a very short period of time. Congratulations, fluffies.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

My country's top scientific minds assure me that these so called "cfc's" do not exist and have never been produced by our industry. They are not sure why such a proposal would be introduced to reduce emissions of a non-existent toxin. It took over five minutes for them to stop laughing when I originally asked them about it. They thought it was a joke. Therefore I must vote against this resolution as it does not appear to have a point and I have advised the others in my region to do the same.

Thank you.

Oh, believe me, since this proposal reached quorum, we've been heavily stepping up our use of those chemicals so that, when it passes (and it will, thanks to the mindless fluffies), we can simply cut back our use to our original levels, and lookee here! No effect on us. So then what did this proposal accomplish? Nothing but reckless overuse of CFCs in a very short period of time. Congratulations, fluffies.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

You could double your production of those substances in such a short time? Well, surely that's proof that you can only have been producing them on a very small scale before this...

(OOC: What ratio of RL time to NS time do you actually use? I think that most of my nations are on about a 7:1 ratio...)

My country's top scientific minds assure me that these so called "cfc's" do not exist and have never been produced by our industry. They are not sure why such a proposal would be introduced to reduce emissions of a non-existent toxin. It took over five minutes for them to stop laughing when I originally asked them about it. They thought it was a joke. Therefore I must vote against this resolution as it does not appear to have a point and I have advised the others in my region to do the same.

Thank you.

OOC _
A 'Past-Tech' nation?
Ignorant as well as "Drunken"?
Or just godmodding?

OOC - as far as I can tell from my limited reading through these forums it is not well defined what exists in this particular game world. In order for us to have a problem with CFC's they would have to exist in this world. I don't see where they exist so I am simply stating that my scientists have not found them. It is not unreasonable to believe that certain toxins would have never been created or used by industry in a game world that developed completely independant of the real world. So my fairly young nation could be past-tech, they could be drunken fools, but I do not believe they are godmodding.

You could double your production of those substances in such a short time? Well, surely that's proof that you can only have been producing them on a very small scale before this...

(OOC: What ratio of RL time to NS time do you actually use? I think that most of my nations are on about a 7:1 ratio...)

We can certainly do it within the time required, before having to cut back to original levels. We're just producing the chemicals for the sake of producing them. Thus, stopping after a few years won't affect anything.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

OOC: I tend to think of it as a 1:1 ratio, although for certain roleplays, that doesn't necessarily work so well, what with people having RL obligations preventing rapid replies on forums.

(OOC: What ratio of RL time to NS time do you actually use? I think that most of my nations are on about a 7:1 ratio...)

Why do you think I have Time Lords running my nation? I'm luck enough to manage to get cause before effect. I think in my case I use multiple ratios at the same time! :p (For example I have already implied three generations before my initial attempt to create werepenguins from last year's infamous war against Chechnya. Yet the Eshter Williams Memorial Birthday Bash - August - and the Tzorsland's Return of the King - October - both take place in the same year.)

We can certainly do it within the time required, before having to cut back to original levels. We're just producing the chemicals for the sake of producing them. Thus, stopping after a few years won't affect anything.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN


*Sniff* Thats beautiful, mate!*wipes eyes* I wish my nation thought of that. Have a Klondike Bar, and Cold Iron.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

The nation of Crynic absolutely refuses to support ANY legislation or resolution that the authors couldn't even be bothered to spell-check. Such obvious lack of concern over even the most basic rules of presentation leaves one to wonder exactly how much care was given to the "science" behind the sentiment.

Especially since the resolution in question does not include, nor even reference ANY scientific study, nor even mention a single hard fact in the body of the resolution. Instead, it simply demands that all businesses "reduce emitions of CFCs by 50% within five years and 90% within thirty years."

Let me break down the absolute failures of this resolution to address anything of substance:

1) "For too long humans have been emitting chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs)..."
- Humans "emit" fewer CFCs than cows. Enough said.

2) "which effect the ozone that protects us."
- No, actually, they don't. They may affect the ozone layer, but the overall effect is still up for debate.

3) "Most of CFCs come from the industry."
- Which industry, exactly? The Forestry industry? The Fishing industry? Perhaps the flower-growing industry?

4) "Ozone protects us, it prevents the majority of UV(Ultra-Violet) rays from reaching our surface."
- Which surface? The surface of the Earth? Going by the grammar, one must assume the author means our surface - or our skin. Clothing accomplishes the same thing.

5) "Too many UV rays and you get skin cancer."
- Who gets skin cancer? The UN? The nations thereof? Who is this "you?" In addition, where is the science to prove this claim?

6) "The Ozone is depleted so much over the south pole and the north pole that almost 100% of UV rays reach the surface."
- Again, proof? Even a footnote referencing a high-school essay? Anything?

7) "If we don't stop emitting CFCs the 'hole'(area of significantly depleted ozone) will continue to grow until it covers the entire earth."
- Again, humans "emit" less CFCs than cow farts.

8) "Therefore all businesses must reduce emitions of CFCs by 50% within five years and 90% within thirty years. It is still possible for businesses to work effectively even though they have to reduce the amount of gas they release."
- ALL Businesses? What about the home business that involves no more CFC emission than using a phone and a computer? How do you regulate this? Also, what, exactly, is an "emition?"

9) "If there is a reduction in CFCs, the ozone will stop depleting..."
- Proof? Even a tested theory?

10) "[T]here will be a significant reduction in skin cancer and therefore a reduction in medical costs."
- Oh, wait, I know; Nostradamus told you so, right?

11) "It will also help endangered animals as animals suffer from the same problem."
- Ever notice that people, who put on sun block and live in houses and such, get sunburned badly enough to need hospitalization, yet we never, ever hear about all the cases of animals, who live outside their entire lives, getting sunburned? Why is that, I wonder?

12) "Basically by reducing CFC emitions we make the world a better place."
- Is this the "Conclude your essay by restating your thesis" part of the assignment?

Here's a true summary:

This tripe is not a resolution. It is a collection of vague, half-considered (being generous), unsubstantiated, and uninformed statements that may or may not reflect an actual, considered position. The UN deserves more respect than to have such a pile of tripe placed before it for consideration. It is a disgrace to this body to have to admit that such a thing ever made it to this level.

And yes, before you flame, I did consider that the author's primary language might not be English. That doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely NOTHING substantial here to be voting upon. Vote "no," and let this thing die. Then, perhaps someone can put together a real resolution that addresses the actual threat to our environment, and suggest attainable goals for resolving such issues.

Crynic']1) "For too long humans have been emitting chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs)..."
- Humans "emit" fewer CFCs than cows. Enough said.
Didn't read anything more of your post, this is absolute crap. You are thinking of greenhouse gases (in particular, methane). Yes, cows do produce more methane than people individually.

CFCs are another matter. They aren't produced naturally, and are only in existence because of humanity.

Oh, then I saw this:

9) "If there is a reduction in CFCs, the ozone will stop depleting..."
- Proof? Even a tested theory?
RW science has indeed recently shown that since the worldwide reduction and phasing out of CFCs, the hole in the ozone layer over the Antarctic has stabilised, and may in fact be shrinking. Yes, that's RL, but so I believe your post is.

These two points alone show profound ignorance of the very nature of CFCs. I suggest you do a bit more reading before putting up another grand list of lies and 'proofs'.

The Empire Of Cromcastle is strongly against the passing of this legislation.
Until i see irrefutable proof of the supposed o-zone depletion then i will not agree to spend my money on stopping it.

Hey Tree Huggers- the sun REPLENISHES the ozone layer. The "fact" that the ozone layer is being depleted is one of the biggest scientific farses ever proclaimed. JUNK SCIENCE at it's best.


"Jackman explains that ultraviolet radiation from the sun continuously strikes the upper atmosphere. These harmful ultraviolet rays would make life on Earth impossible if it weren’t for the ozone layer that absorbs the radiation. Ozone forms when three atoms of oxygen bind together to create a single molecule (O3), but when ozone absorbs ultraviolet radiation, the molecules split apart into a single free oxygen atom, and an oxygen molecule of two tightly bound oxygen atoms (O2). O2 is the oxygen we breathe, and it makes up about 21 percent of the Earth’s air.

“The free oxygen atom is so reactive and there is so much O2 around, that out of 1001 times that this reaction occurs, 1000 times it will reform,” Jackman says. As a result, day-to-day break down of ozone by ultraviolet radiation doesn’t affect the overall amount of it in the atmosphere. “The only way to destroy ozone is for that free atom of oxygen to reform with something else,” Jackman says.

That’s where solar proton events enter the picture. When protons from the sun hit the atmosphere they break apart both water vapor and nitrogen gas, which accounts for 78 percent of our atmosphere. The nitrogen gas molecules (N2) disconnect and leave two free nitrogen atoms. Nitrogen atoms are highly reactive with O2, creating oxides of nitrogen. Once formed, these molecules can last for weeks to months depending on where they end up in the atmosphere before they get destroyed. Protons also break up water vapor (H20) into a hydroxide molecule (OH) and a free-floating single atom of hydrogen. Both of these products also react easily with ozone and reduce its levels in the atmosphere. Fortunately, oxides of hydrogen are short-lived and only stay together as long as the rain of protons keeps coming."

Cromcastle']Until i see irrefutable proof of the supposed o-zone depletion then i will not agree to spend my money on stopping it.
Yes, I am also very skeptical about this mysterious "o-zone." Probably some sort of a-rab plot.

"Ozone-Friendly Chemicals Lead to Warming"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/20/ap/tech/mainD8JKDDH80.shtml

Duh people. You'll be trading one evil for a more expensive evil. IT MAKES NO SENSE!

This resolution has no basis in common sense. How do you expect CFC emissions to be reduced by 50%? Since the UN funds every other bleeding-heart tree hugging liberal cause, where is the funding for the research required to assist small and large businesses to cope with this asinine resolution?

There is made no suggestion as to the far reaching implications of economic impact.

To the >7000 nations that votes for this swill, did you stop for one second to think what will happen to your economies and effectively the livelihood of your entire populous? Well, for half you welfare hungry nations, this is right up your alley. To the other half, what are you thinking about!?

Hey Tree Huggers- the sun REPLENISHES the ozone layer. The "fact" that the ozone layer is being depleted is one of the biggest scientific farses ever proclaimed. JUNK SCIENCE at it's best.
You're entirely right that ozone is created by ultraviolet rays. What your quote doesn't point out is that CFCs prevent ozone from re-forming from free oxygen. It is wqell documented (in the real world) that the use of CFCs and related chemicals caused damage to the ozone layer, so much so that a hole formed over RW Antarctica. It is also well documented that since the use of CFCs has slowed and in some cases stopped, the hole has stabilised and may be closing.

Ken oath, if I have to keep on pointing out things like this, I may have to vote for this thing

"Ozone-Friendly Chemicals Lead to Warming"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...8JKDDH80.shtml

You'll be trading one evil for a more expensive evil. IT MAKES NO SENSE!

VOTE FOR SANITY - VOTE NO!

I'm going to keep posting this over and over again, until it starts to sink in.

I wonder if it's too late to point out that UV rays ... in moderation, are an excellent source of vitamin D which can and does in fact help reduce a large number of internal cancers.

Wolfgang stands once again. "May I point out that the current problem is not that depletion of the ozone is bad? It's fairly common knowledge, this whole CFC ozone thing. But, it's irrelavant. If you want to start a new resolution, we can debate that issue in there. However, this one has already been submitted and made it to the vote. Thus, the problem is not whether or not we stand behind the environment. It's whether or not this resolution will do it. It will not. A percentage decrease is not a good idea. The most smoggy nations on the planet will still be the most smoggy nations, and nations with almost no pollution will be hard pressed to meet the requirements. THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE OZONE ARE GOOD. THIS RESOLUTION IS BAD. That's what this debate should be about. I doubt you'll find people truly arguing against the environment. Of course, I must also point out that this is all moot, as there are too many people who don't care to come and debate. Currently, it's 7,322 to 3,449 in favor. Sigh..." He collapses into his chair, defeated.

Just curious: has anyone started work on a repeal yet?

((I would start a repeal, however, I'm not so sure it would be passed. Out of the 10,000 some nations that vote, I doubt that even 100 come and look at these debate forums. At least, I'm not so sure mine would be passed. I haven't attempted to write a single resolution as of yet, nor have I given thought to it. That and my education and sports, social activities, et cetera, tend to interefere with my available time.
If anyone would like, however, I'd be willing to give some help as to what a repeal would contain.))

President Lucas MacJennings yet again took the stand. "Western Maris has made up their minds. My nation will not back such a preposterous resolution! It has become an abhorance in my nation's economy. My factories are already as clean as our technology can make them, and I don't wish to be reprimanded for something that my nation can not control. Furthermore, I would like to point out that only certain businesses emit large amounts of CFCs. Others, however, give off smog, and if anyone listened to their Chemistry teaches, would know that smog is, in fact, Ozone. The CFCs can even help get rid of this smog that plagues some nations. While I do not support the emission of CFCs for the most part, we need air conditioning units, do we not? We need refrigerators and freezers to keep our perishables fresh until we need them. Some of Western Maris' businesses would run into the ground if this went into a prolonged ordinance. Our hospital patients would enter with cases of heat stroke and die of it as well because they were inable to get cool before their bodies merely fried out. Or worse, someone would enter with a major injury, be fixed in surgery, only to die because of dehydration and, yes, heat stroke. The elderly homes would become morgues quickly. This resolution cannot be passed. No considerations have been made! It's as if the writer saw some tree-huggers on T.V. and decided to help out an atmosphere that was already fixing itself."

OOC: Ozone, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone). I was curious and started looking, and it seems ozone is quite a lot of not good for the human body, lol. I never really knew that. And, Western Maris, in the name of NationStates, you're right, it is created by recombination of pollutants. I learned something today, lol. *wags tail* Oh, wait, this is OOC... What's that about a tail? No tail here. Move along, people.

This resolution does not really provide a good basis for getting rid of CFC's as each Nation would take longer than five years even to achieve its aims as some projects such as building roads can take 10 to 15 years because of the paperwork and then actually constructing a road. Imagine the time it would take to shut down or divert CFC producers from CFC's - Just as long, imagine the paperwork and the time it would take.

The resolution is not only lacking a good time frame but it would in fact hurt the most polluting nations and heavily favour environmentally friendly ones.
It would cripple economies of the most polluting and make the most environmentally friendly nations the wealthiest.

The following was posted in the discussion of this resolution in the forum of our region, City Ankh Morpork:

Posted by Perfect unreality:

The science reads like it came off the back of a cereal box, one which did its research by reading the backs of other cereal boxes.

We agree.

Lorelei M. Ahlmann
Ambassador-at-Large

Such is the problem with this Resolution. Golgothastan highlighted the major flaws with it in the very first post of this thread. The idea and the sentiment is not bad (as with Hearing Impaired Aid Act) but the Resolution is. Thus, it does not get our support.

I am saddened by those who are voting against this because they do not even believe that the ozone is either important, or in jeopardy.

Just curious: has anyone started work on a repeal yet?
I believe the ACCEL intend to.

This resolution does not really provide a good basis for getting rid of CFC's as each Nation would take longer than five years even to achieve its aims as some projects such as building roads can take 10 to 15 years because of the paperwork and then actually constructing a road. Imagine the time it would take to shut down or divert CFC producers from CFC's - Just as long, imagine the paperwork and the time it would take.

OOC: compare the timeline, and the extent of reduction required, with those in the RL 'Motreal Protocol' which many RL nations -- including the UK and even the USA -- have ratified.

I am saddened by those who are voting against this because they do not even believe that the ozone is either important, or in jeopardy.

While I am against this for a number of obvious reasons I am also mildly against it for a number of not so obvious reasons. The flat tax solution to emissions by making everyone cut by the same percentage is moronic. Large advanced nations while having large numbers to cut can more easily make their targets than the smaller less advanced nations. This is true for stuff like CFC since it's in a whole lot of primitive air conditioning units. (You want the small backward nation to purchase all their citizen's window AC units, and give them brand new non CFC units? Because that's probably where half their leaking CFC emissions are comming from! Don't forget refrigerators, freezers, and automobile AC units.)

No. Sad but true, those who can can do more and those who can't should not be crushed to the ground. If the goal is global emissions then the best solution is a global emission reduction trading market. (Note if the goal is the removal of localized hot spots the trading market is moronic.) Blanket percentage cuts generally do not work across diverse economic systems.

OOC: There is a difference between the RW and NS - the Antarctic is highly populated in NS. :p There are those, especially from the Antartic Oasis who might consider problems above the poles - especially the south one - as a "regional" problem ... and since they didn't come up with the problem they see it as regional interference.

OOC: There is a difference between the RW and NS - the Antarctic is highly populated in NS. :p There are those, especially from the Antartic Oasis who might consider problems above the poles - especially the south one - as a "regional" problem ... and since they didn't come up with the problem they see it as regional interference.

OOC: And then there are nations, whether located in the Antarctic or not, who realise that the atmosphere isn't neatly divided into regional compartments by rigid but invisible walls and that therefore anything that happens to it one region can eventually (if it's happening on a large enough scale) -- due simply to diffusion -- affect the atmosphere of other regions too... After all, in RL, it isn't "local" production & emission of CFCs in the Antarctic that's affecting the ozone there...

how do resolutions like this make it up for a vote? there is no presentation of scientific facts or research, nor any plan as to how businesses are to decrease cfc's. basically the resolution boils down to this:

cfc's are bad, therefore let's make businesses reduce them by the arbitrary percentage of 50%, and just to sound a little more complex, let's make them decrease it by 90%. what a better world it will be.

geez, give me a break. here's another resolution with the same naivety:

murders are bad. let's make murderers cut down on their murders by ... well 40% sounds good. hey, i mean it. all you murderers cut it out. i don't know how we'll make you, but just do it, because the UN says to. then we'll all live in a better world.

do not pass this resolution as it stands. rewrite it first!

murders are bad. let's make murderers cut down on their murders by ... well 40% sounds good. hey, i mean it. all you murderers cut it out. i don't know how we'll make you, but just do it, because the UN says to. then we'll all live in a better world.Except the UN could do that, if a resolution passed.

The UN Gnomes would increase police spending until there was a reduction of 40% on murders.

Hey, don't blame me, but that's what would happen.

Except in OMGTKK, where we shoot the gnomes and undertake our own measures to reduce crime.

Except in OMGTKK, where we shoot the gnomes and undertake our own measures to reduce crime.

I thought that was regional policy, not just Kennyite policy. ;)

Oh, and to the supporters of this rubbish:

http://test256.free.fr/UN%20Cards/catgirls4hn.jpg

If I may respond...

This resolution seems, for lack of a better word, fluffy. Craftica supports the environmentalist's cause; however, the lack of effort put into planning for the resolution's implementation renders it unsupportable.





OOC: I really want to use this smily face for some reason :upyours: (sorry)

The Holy Emperor-Saint of the Holy Empire of Saint Anns Bay specifically joined the UN so that he may cast a vote against this resolution. Not only would this have a detrimental effect on business across the entire NationStates but also it is a complete waste of this body's time. I say someone with power to draft resolutions immediately begin a draft to repeal this tripe. You are guaranteed this empire's vote

His Almighty out

The Holy Emperor-Saint of the Holy Empire of Saint Anns Bay specifically joined the UN so that he may cast a vote against this resolution. Not only would this have a detrimental effect on business across the entire NationStates but also it is a complete waste of this body's time. I say someone with power to draft resolutions immediately begin a draft to repeal this tripe. You are guaranteed this empire's vote

His Almighty out

Actually, it wouldn't affect anyone outside of the UN. But it'll affect you, now that you joined.

Actually, it wouldn't affect anyone outside of the UN. But it'll affect you, now that you joined.


ooc: brain fart i guess...well, it pissed me off so much that I completely forgot about that lol....well, time for someone to start pre-emptive work on a repeal to this poorly planned out resolution...i mean really, who in their right mind voted for this thing? Did they read the entire thing or just the title? which is nothin special anyways....


*finishes rant*

Well techncally if the resolution worked it would have affected everyone but not in any restrictive game stat or role playing way. Unfortunately, since this resolution won't fix the holy ozone problem only put a costly feel good regulation in place, only UN members will be impacted ... negatively.

Except in OMGTKK, where we shoot the gnomes and undertake our own measures to reduce crime.


Lol! The more UN gnomes = the higher the murder rate.

Well, it's been passed. I haven't received a compliance telegram yet, however.

OOC: For reference, see this newspaper article (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?showtopic=130).

IC: "Mr Pyandran! Mr Pyandran?"

Rono Pyandran lowered his cigarette, shuffling his feet in the cold. "Yeah, what do you want." The girl approached him, and his eyes rolled down her like a blob of grease hitting a kitchen wall. "Hello...what can I do for you?" he continued, his voice softening.

She smiled. "Uh, I have a message for you. Apparently someone called 'Bausch' would like you to call him, at the Paradise City embassy."

"Moltan? Wow it's been a while. Did he say what about."

She shrugged, his eyes glued to her chest as she did so. "It was his PA. She said it was personal...about the Strangers' Bar?"

"Ah. Well then. I'll get on that."

"Oh, and I'm meant to find Mr Lennto, our Environmental Advisor. Do you know who he is?"

Pyandran pointed. "He's the one screaming 'Fuck nature!'"

She nodded, and started towards the howling figure, two aerosol cans clenched in his hands.

"Say, you just started working here?"

"Yeah. I just got transferred."

"Remind you to buy me a drink...little custom we have here."

She smiled again. "Oh, thanks!"

Lurs Lennto was running around madly, spraying the aerosols for all he was worth. "Take that, ozone fucking layer! Hey, how'd you like that, you fluffy scum? Ah, take that! Fuck you, Mother Nature!"

She tapped on his shoulder nervously.

"Uh, Mr Lennto? You have an urgent phonecall."

"Huh, alright. Here, keep spraying this." He exchanged the phone for an aerosol, and walked away.

The young assistant stood chewing on her lip and wafting the aerosol around. There were quite a few other ambassadors and staff out doing the same. She didn't really know why. Lennto returned, ashen.

"Are you ok, sir?"

"Yes...I mean, no, not really. Thank you."

He trundled away, and she diligently followed, spraying away.

"Rono, we are in shit."

"It passed, yeah, I heard."

"No, not that. GC12 just exploded."

"What?"

"It's huge, oh shit, it's huge! The whole industrial area's been flattened, toxic gas clouds...apparently some cat is ok though."

"Lurs, what? What is GC12? Where is this?"

"It's one of my factories. And last night, it exploded. Oh, shit. In Arradan."

"You mean, the one..."

"Well, there's more than one. But yeah, we were ramping up CFC output there."

"And it caused this?"

"No, probably not. But, we don't know."

Pyandran paused. "Hmm."

"What? No, not 'hmm'! Oh shit, Pyandran, oh shit! I have to go."

"Ok." Lennto scuttled off, but Pyandran stood for a while, smoking and spraying, and then turned towards the GA.

It was emptying - the vote was over, and delegates were packing for the mighty snoozefest of the next bullshit repeal. But there were enough there, plus a few reporters. He pushed aside some weedy fluffyite, and took the podium.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I have grave news. Last night, a massive explosion shook Gruenberg as one of our factories, that produced medicine for poorly dolphins, exploded, releasing toxic gases and killing scores. This factory, ladies and gentlemen, was no ordinary factory, though. No, in the course of its vital work producing chemicals to be used to grow hemp, it emitted small quantities of CFCs. But, because of this latest resolution, it was being fitted out to reduce its 'emitions'.

"And ladies and gentlemen, this new technology caused this devastating chemical accident, the worst in Gruenberg's history, in the history of the world - in fact, were a quantum scientist to draw up all the possibilities for any form of accident occurring anywhere, this is without one shadow of a doubt the worst thing that could possibly have happened. I mean, a cat was nearly injured! Hundreds died! And why? Because of this resolution!

"Yes, the conversion of this plant to reduce CFC emissions was THE SOLE reason for this explosion. There is no doubt about this, none whatsoever. Of course, I have no 'evidence', no 'facts'...but I know it's true, with every fibre of my being. Fibres that, if they were in Arradan right now, would be burning in terror as I was engulfed with chemical hell...chemical hell that the General Assembly voted on Gruenberg! You have just voted to kill thousands! Every ambassador who cast his vote for has the blood of millions on his hands!

"So I hope you're happy now. Your precious CFC emissions will be cut...small relief to the billions affected by this disaster. As trillions of babies lie dying in the streets of Gruenberg, remember this...a vote for this resolution was a vote to kill babies!"

Coughing in the cloud of aerosols, Wolfgang stepped forth. "We'd like to point out that this royally sucks. Also, the Alpha Elect sent a personal message to all those who voted in favor of this Resolution. I'd also like it to be known that the last known time an Alpha Elect said this, it started the uprising against our former masters." He very deliberately emphasized the word "former."

"Ahem..." He pulled out a small piece of paper and read, "PISS OFF."

OOC: For reference, see this newspaper article (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?showtopic=130).

IC: "Mr Pyandran! Mr Pyandran?"

Rono Pyandran lowered his cigarette, shuffling his feet in the cold. "Yeah, what do you want." The girl approached him, and his eyes rolled down her like a blob of grease hitting a kitchen wall. "Hello...what can I do for you?" he continued, his voice softening.

She smiled. "Uh, I have a message for you. Apparently someone called 'Bausch' would like you to call him, at the Paradise City embassy."

"Moltan? Wow it's been a while. Did he say what about."

She shrugged, his eyes glued to her chest as she did so. "It was his PA. She said it was personal...about the Strangers' Bar?"

"Ah. Well then. I'll get on that."

"Oh, and I'm meant to find Mr Lennto, our Environmental Advisor. Do you know who he is?"

Pyandran pointed. "He's the one screaming 'Fuck nature!'"

She nodded, and started towards the howling figure, two aerosol cans clenched in his hands.

"Say, you just started working here?"

"Yeah. I just got transferred."

"Remind you to buy me a drink...little custom we have here."

She smiled again. "Oh, thanks!"

Lurs Lennto was running around madly, spraying the aerosols for all he was worth. "Take that, ozone fucking layer! Hey, how'd you like that, you fluffy scum? Ah, take that! Fuck you, Mother Nature!"

She tapped on his shoulder nervously.

"Uh, Mr Lennto? You have an urgent phonecall."

"Huh, alright. Here, keep spraying this." He exchanged the phone for an aerosol, and walked away.

The young assistant stood chewing on her lip and wafting the aerosol around. There were quite a few other ambassadors and staff out doing the same. She didn't really know why. Lennto returned, ashen.

"Are you ok, sir?"

"Yes...I mean, no, not really. Thank you."

He trundled away, and she diligently followed, spraying away.

"Rono, we are in shit."

"It passed, yeah, I heard."

"No, not that. GC12 just exploded."

"What?"

"It's huge, oh shit, it's huge! The whole industrial area's been flattened, toxic gas clouds...apparently some cat is ok though."

"Lurs, what? What is GC12? Where is this?"

"It's one of my factories. And last night, it exploded. Oh, shit. In Arradan."

"You mean, the one..."

"Well, there's more than one. But yeah, we were ramping up CFC output there."

"And it caused this?"

"No, probably not. But, we don't know."

Pyandran paused. "Hmm."

"What? No, not 'hmm'! Oh shit, Pyandran, oh shit! I have to go."

"Ok." Lennto scuttled off, but Pyandran stood for a while, smoking and spraying, and then turned towards the GA.

It was emptying - the vote was over, and delegates were packing for the mighty snoozefest of the next bullshit repeal. But there were enough there, plus a few reporters. He pushed aside some weedy fluffyite, and took the podium.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I have grave news. Last night, a massive explosion shook Gruenberg as one of our factories, that produced medicine for poorly dolphins, exploded, releasing toxic gases and killing scores. This factory, ladies and gentlemen, was no ordinary factory, though. No, in the course of its vital work producing chemicals to be used to grow hemp, it emitted small quantities of CFCs. But, because of this latest resolution, it was being fitted out to reduce its 'emitions'.

"And ladies and gentlemen, this new technology caused this devastating chemical accident, the worst in Gruenberg's history, in the history of the world - in fact, were a quantum scientist to draw up all the possibilities for any form of accident occurring anywhere, this is without one shadow of a doubt the worst thing that could possibly have happened. I mean, a cat was nearly injured! Hundreds died! And why? Because of this resolution!

"Yes, the conversion of this plant to reduce CFC emissions was THE SOLE reason for this explosion. There is no doubt about this, none whatsoever. Of course, I have no 'evidence', no 'facts'...but I know it's true, with every fibre of my being. Fibres that, if they were in Arradan right now, would be burning in terror as I was engulfed with chemical hell...chemical hell that the General Assembly voted on Gruenberg! You have just voted to kill thousands! Every ambassador who cast his vote for has the blood of millions on his hands!

"So I hope you're happy now. Your precious CFC emissions will be cut...small relief to the billions affected by this disaster. As trillions of babies lie dying in the streets of Gruenberg, remember this...a vote for this resolution was a vote to kill babies!"

Should they be needed, Norderia's hospitals are prepared to treat those who need it, if Gruenberg does not have the capacity.

Tommo the Stout mutters under his breath to Juhani Viljakainen, I wonder if that's the scheme the Kennyites had in mine -- increasing the CFC output now so that they only need return it to normal to be in compliance... The Stout climbs out of his hammock and picks up his brief case. He makes for the door.
This is never going to get repealed, just like Hearing Impaired Aid. It's giving environmentalism/socialism a bad rep here.

Voted against......



Reasons are my own, will not discuss...
Reasons are my own, will not discuss...
Reasons are my own, will not discuss...
Reasons are my own, will not discuss...
Reasons are my own, will not discuss........

Should they be needed, Norderia's hospitals are prepared to treat those who need it, if Gruenberg does not have the capacity.
"Well, thank you. However, the High Princess's cat is safe, and should not need hospitalisation."

This is never going to get repealed, just like Hearing Impaired Aid. It's giving environmentalism/socialism a bad rep here.
"They already had bad names. Those bad names were "environmentalism" and "socialism"."

Pyandran resumed spraying his aerosol defiantly.

This is never going to get repealed, just like Hearing Impaired Aid. It's giving environmentalism/socialism a bad rep here.
'The resolution Help Prevent Ozone Depletion was passed 9,028 votes to 6,191'
Getting a repeal into quorum doesn't seem too hard, and it'll also have a reasonable chance when voted on by the General Assembly.

On behalf of the Federal Republic, the State Department and the Destructor from Del Fuego, Mexico, I would like to extend our deepest sympathies to the Gruenberger royal family, and Princess Lara especially, for nearly losing four of their beloved kitties in last night's tragic incident in Arradan (we can only imagine how many despondent corporate CEOs will have to trim their own superfluous salaries by a slight amount as a result of this economic calamity). The Destructor has announced that he will personally be sending balls of yarn via FedEx to Moroschwegen to help poor Mr. Tiddlewumps cope as he recovers from his terrifying ordeal. By this act of charity, the Destructor wants it known, in the grand assemblies of nations, in the hallowed halls of international fellowship, and even in this putrid den of gnomish greed and corruption, that he cares for all of God's creatures. Well, except for dolphins. They can rot in hell. And he absolutely abhors otters. Penguins he finds useful, but he doesn't have much regard for them personally. And he can't stand cats. Pretty much all animals, really. But he really loves all the money that Gruenberg pours annually into Kennyite uranium markets, and it is because the Destructor recognizes that so much of the Federal Republic's economic well-being is dependent upon Gruenberger good will ... er, what were we talking about again?

Sammy Faisano
Ambassador to the United Nations

Who's working on the repeal?