NationStates Jolt Archive

In our opinion, it is perfectly proper to say that, with the passage of the legislation now before us: Unions may represent workers in negotiations pertaining to working hours (¶2),

Unions may still negotiate collective labor agreements (#149 ¶1),

Such agreements are non-binding where working hours are concerned
(¶3),

Where workers elect to disregard collective bargaining agreements with respect to work hours, they may then proceed to negotiate their own individual agreements without reliance on union resources, with the help of any other counsel or representative they wish to employ (¶2).The practical effect of this would be to take unions out of the business of negotiating contracts that affect hours or compensation, since such contracts would be unenforceable.

We must admit to being continually amazed at the tenacity with which the representative of Community Property twists the language of two resolutions at once to try to convince people they say what they would say if his arguments made any sense.

Contracts are legal documents binding under civil law upon the signatory parties and those they legally represent. This resolution doesn't change that one bit. Nor does NSUN Resolution #149, no matter how much tortuous and skewed misreading the representative tries to pawn off on this Assembly.

Patrick T. Olembe
Minister for Foreign Affairs

We must admit to being continually amazed at the tenacity with which the representative of Community Property twists the language of two resolutions at once to try to convince people they say what they would say if his arguments made any sense.

Contracts are legal documents binding under civil law upon the signatory parties and those they legally represent. This resolution doesn't change that one bit. Nor does NSUN Resolution #149, no matter how much tortuous and skewed misreading the representative tries to pawn off on this Assembly.

Patrick T. Olembe
Minister for Foreign Affairs

More empty rhetoric. Just because you say he's full shit, doesn't make it so. You have not addressed why his points are invalid. And until such time as you do, they are quite valid. And of much concern to my country.

Jimayo Oyamitch
Shi Huang Di
The United Socialist States of Jimayo

That's not entirely true. Where a resolution fails to delineate its terms or scope clearly, other acts can change its meaning.
So what you mean is: "that is entirely correct; however, there is an additional consideration". I agree.

“Collective representation” means what, precisely?
It means collective representation. What, you want a fucking dictionary?

Yeah, terms should be defined...to a point. Where ridiculous squirrelling sets in, I cease to have any interest in the matter. If someone wants to define "the" as meaning "kill all Jews", worrying about reasonable response to a resolution's terms ceases to have any importance.

If a nation looks at this and says, “This is trouble,” you want them to neglect their own inner counsel?
No. What I mean is, such an intepretation would be idiotic. I can't legislate against people being idiots. Your argument is coming down to: "if nations completely ignore what everything in this proposal means, they might screw themselves with it". No, really? Find a new tune to play; this one's now died, and the scratching on the roof of the coffin is pretty annoying.

~Rono Pyandran
Chief of Staff

Chief Pyandran, my constituency has requested that I argue against the resolution with this rebuttal of your address to the reply of Grand Duke Boziis.

Here is the Grand Duke's rebuttal:

Our legal staff point out that clause 4 uses weaker language than clause 1 (and clause 3), "reserving the right" to limit workweeks in the "general public interest" as long as such laws do not "unduly abridge" individual freedoms. Our courts would normally interpret this to mean that greater weight should be placed on carrying out clause 1 and 3. Workweek and similar laws routinely abridge individual rights of entire classes of persons unduly to achieve some general goal.

Essentially, our labour lawyers believe that this opens loopholes that employers could drive large strip-mining dredges through.

The Grand Duke acknowledges that not all courts work in the same way as Boziian courts, but insists that this fact should not lessen the value of his arguments. There does seem to be much "wiggle room" in a law determined to have international significance.

I thank the Assembly for its time.

Magister Intangelon
Jubal Harshaw

UN Minister
Benjamin Royce

No. What I mean is, such an intepretation would be idiotic. I can't legislate against people being idiots. Your argument is coming down to: "if nations completely ignore what everything in this proposal means, they might screw themselves with it". No, really? Find a new tune to play; this one's now died, and the scratching on the roof of the coffin is pretty annoying.

Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true. As pointed out, employers can use the courts to strip away laws(at least in some countries) by interpretations of this clause. Not just governments. I'm not worried about screwing myself with this, I'm worried employers will find ways to screw unions and my government with this. And the fact that you repeatedly ignore this says worlds about your countries political agenda.

Jimayo Oyamitch
Shi Huang Di
The United Socialist States of Jimayo

Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true. As pointed out, employers can use the courts to strip away laws(at least in some countries) by interpretations of this clause. Not just governments. I'm not worried about screwing myself with this, I'm worried employers will find ways to screw unions and my government with this. And the fact that you repeatedly ignore this says worlds about your countries political agenda.

Jimayo Oyamitch
Shi Huang Di
The United Socialist States of Jimayo

Pot calling the kettle black, eh? Just because you keep saying that this resolution is going to eviscerate labor unions doesn't mean it is. Who the hell cares what Gruenbeg's political agenda is? The people of Allech-Atreus don't, and neither do I. Neither do I care for what your country does to its citizens. What I do care about is this arrogant stance taken that seems to suggest that we do not know how to run our nations.

You have admitted in this same paragraph that the effect of this law in your own nation does not pose a problem. Okay, fine. If you had shut up right there we wouldn't be arguing. But, you went further and started sticking your nose into the affairs of sovereign nations, and that is both obnoxious, annoying, and wrong.

Who gives a fuck if there aren't any labor unions in Allech-Atreus? Do you? If you do, fuck off, and mind your own business.

Landaman Pendankr dan Samda
Ambassador to the UN
Baron of Khaylamian Samda

Given the emotional intensity of the statements made by proponents of this bill, the People's Democratic Republic of Community Property has decided that it is neither in the best interests of the global community nor or the United Nations to continue debate on this resolution.

The rage underlying the opposition's use of profanity shows that this is what political analysts call a “red meat” issue with them, and this approach to ideology is in keeping with recent trends in conservative thinking, where visceral feelings mean more than reason. Anyone who does not agree with such people is “f_ck_ng stupid” and deserves, in their eyes, the worst kind of scorn and verbal abuse they can dish out.

The record of this debate will show that opponents of this legislation did not use such vulgarity in addressing the bill's supporters, preferring instead to remain with the bounds of decorum, as is proper within the halls of this great institution.

<At the Ambassador's signal, the delegation from Community Property rises and exits the hall>

Later...“What's the predicted margin of passage?”
<Glances at polling data>
“52% to 48%. A definite repeal target.”
“Good. It's time we moved on.”
“So what is our next step?”
“We will proceed with presenting the initial draft of our National Overtime Standards resolution. The folks at the Ministry of Compliance have worked out all of the legality issues; it's just a matter of getting it in queue.”
“Will it pass?”
“Depends on the Gatesville crowd, believe it or not. They wavered on this one, and for good reason; regardless of Rono's semantic gymnastics, this bill was anything but sovereignty-neutral, and they knew it.”
“It's going to be a hard sell. We're communists; they're not going to trust us.”
“They don't have to trust us; they just have to trust their eyes and their heads.”

Pot calling the kettle black, eh? Just because you keep saying that this resolution is going to eviscerate labor unions doesn't mean it is. Who the hell cares what Gruenbeg's political agenda is? The people of Allech-Atreus don't, and neither do I. Neither do I care for what your country does to its citizens. What I do care about is this arrogant stance taken that seems to suggest that we do not know how to run our nations.

You have admitted in this same paragraph that the effect of this law in your own nation does not pose a problem. Okay, fine. If you had shut up right there we wouldn't be arguing. But, you went further and started sticking your nose into the affairs of sovereign nations, and that is both obnoxious, annoying, and wrong.

Who gives a fuck if there aren't any labor unions in Allech-Atreus? Do you? If you do, fuck off, and mind your own business.

Landaman Pendankr dan Samda
Ambassador to the UN
Baron of Khaylamian Samda

No I don't give a flying fuck about you or your country. And your right as of right now, I can tell my courts to eat shit and die, cause I am a dictator. But upon my death, my country will become a democracy, so the courts interpretation of this resolution, is a matter for my concern.

And why is it so important for you that this resolution passes? Are you trying to push your ideological agenda onto countries like mine? I think you are. There is no need, or reason for this bill.

Neither do I care for what your country does to its citizens. What I do care about is this arrogant stance taken that seems to suggest that we do not know how to run our nations.
....
You have admitted in this same paragraph that the effect of this law in your own nation does not pose a problem. Okay, fine. If you had shut up right there we wouldn't be arguing. But, you went further and started sticking your nose into the affairs of sovereign nations, and that is both obnoxious, annoying, and wrong.

I'm confused, are you OPPOSING this proposal or supporting it?

Your objecting to others interfering with how your nation is governed, so I assumed naturally that you OPPOSED legislation in the United Nations which would stop your nation from passing laws on this matter in any way they wished.

But glancing through the minutes of this debate, it appears perhaps you are arguing FOR this legislation.

Which means your arguement boil down to:
"How dare other nations object to having laws forced on them by the United Nations, they shouldn't be sticking their noses in other nations business" which demonstrates an inability to reason.

We will vote against if we can be bothered to wake up early enough.

Who needs to be forced to work long hours?

Down with all Governmental Production Quotas.

Longer holidays, shorter working weeks for all.

I'm confused, are you OPPOSING this proposal or supporting it?

Your objecting to others interfering with how your nation is governed, so I assumed naturally that you OPPOSED legislation in the United Nations which would stop your nation from passing laws on this matter in any way they wished.

But glancing through the minutes of this debate, it appears perhaps you are arguing FOR this legislation.

Which means your arguement boil down to:
"How dare other nations object to having laws forced on them by the United Nations, they shouldn't be sticking their noses in other nations business" which demonstrates an inability to reason.

We believe the problem is that they are trying to push their political agenda onto other nations and since they don't want to explicitely as it might be viewed by right-thinking nations as improper, so their arguments against those who have come to that conclusion is rather specious as they cannot state their true reasons for supporting the bill.

Essentially Landaman Pendankr dan Samda argument is that this bill will not infringe on your sovereignty so why not pass it? Which is a poor reason to pass a bill, at best.

Jimayo Oyamitch
Shi Huang Di
The United Socialist States of Jimayo

Our legal staff point out that clause 4 uses weaker language than clause 1 (and clause 3), "reserving the right" to limit workweeks in the "general public interest" as long as such laws do not "unduly abridge" individual freedoms. Our courts would normally interpret this to mean that greater weight should be placed on carrying out clause 1 and 3. Workweek and similar laws routinely abridge individual rights of entire classes of persons unduly to achieve some general goal.

Essentially, our labour lawyers believe that this opens loopholes that employers could drive large strip-mining dredges through.
I don't think "reserves" is necessarily any weaker than "requires" or "mandates". It's just their direction that's different: the latter two are placing obligations on nations, from the UN, while the former is setting up rights for nations, free from UN interference. I can't comment on how specific courts would interpret the legislation. I think it's sufficiently flexible to allow courts to retain as legal an array of working time regulations.

And I don't think will especially resolve the issue. It's a difference of opinion, and neither side is going to be able to prove their way. This in turn, though, suggests that such a difference of opinion might be acknowledged by the courts, and that judges might be able to interpret the legislation to allow the sort of regulations the Grand Duke seems keen on retaining.

Not just governments. I'm not worried about screwing myself with this, I'm worried employers will find ways to screw unions and my government with this.
So demonstrate how! You can't simply say "they might screw with us". You need to go to the text of the proposal, and show how it would force your national government to pass laws that would in turn allow employers to harm the government. Until then, your statements are next to worthless.

"This proposal cures cancer!"

See, I haven't backed it up with textual reference - but then why should I?

And the fact that you repeatedly ignore this says worlds about your countries political agenda.
What, that I'd rather address reasoned, factual statements than vague rhetoric? Fuck me, you're right: I must be a...well, whatever you're accusing me of being.

Given the emotional intensity of the statements made by proponents of this bill, the People's Democratic Republic of Community Property has decided that it is neither in the best interests of the global community nor or the United Nations to continue debate on this resolution.
About fucking time.

The record of this debate will show that opponents of this legislation did not use such vulgarity in addressing the bill's supporters, preferring instead to remain with the bounds of decorum, as is proper within the halls of this great institution.
And this means, what exactly? That you didn't swear means you win the debate.

See this, again, is what I'm talking about. You're hanging yourself on the noose you're trying to knot. If the use of profanity is a bad debating tactic - once again putting aside that it's not even being employed as a tactic - then it is irrelevant to the outcome of the debate. Think of it in terms of fallacious arguments: all fallacious arguments can be struck from the final sum of their proponents' substantive points. We should weigh up relevant, logical arguments. Calling you a dipshit doesn't strengthen my cause at all - so your whining about being called a dipshit doesn't strengthen yours.

It is irrelevant. So fucking drop it, already.

~Rono Pyandran
Chief of Staff

The delegation from the Commonwealth of the UK in Exile would like to draw a line under this obviously heated line of debate by declaring with pride that for the first time in this august chamber it will be casting its vote for a resolution.

the UKIE votes FOR

Calling you a dipshit doesn't strengthen my cause at all - so your whining about being called a dipshit doesn't strengthen yours.

Although I don’t personally agree with using profanity in a debate, (elsewhere is fine) that is a very good point. I have a feeling that argument will come in handy in the future.;)

This is taking too long, it should take like only 2 days to get ppl to decide if they want it or not, or may 3 at the most if ppl havent decided by day 3 they aint going to

This is taking too long, it should take like only 2 days to get ppl to decide if they want it or not, or may 3 at the most if ppl havent decided by day 3 they aint going to

Huh? What the bloody hell are you talking about? What are ppl? If you mean people, then say so. Christ, that's annoying. There are certain acronyms that are acceptable. ppl is not one of them. Unacceptable in my books. Are you too damn lazy to type the word 'people'? GAH! Do you not know how to spell it?

I'm done now.

I'll be happy when the voting ends and this puppy is passed.

I'm confused, are you OPPOSING this proposal or supporting it?

Your objecting to others interfering with how your nation is governed, so I assumed naturally that you OPPOSED legislation in the United Nations which would stop your nation from passing laws on this matter in any way they wished.

But glancing through the minutes of this debate, it appears perhaps you are arguing FOR this legislation.

Uhhh... it's very clear that I support his proposal. I don't see how you could get any other impression.

The reason my government supports this legislation is because it takes the power to determine working hours away from the UN and puts it in the hands of the individual nation. That is very clearly FOR the resolution.

And your assesment of my argument is completely off-base.

Which means your arguement boil down to:
"How dare other nations object to having laws forced on them by the United Nations, they shouldn't be sticking their noses in other nations business" which demonstrates an inability to reason.

What? This resolution removes the UN from the affairs of the individual nation, which increases national sovereignty. I suppose that yes, you are at least a little bit correct, in that I support UN legislation that prevents further UN meddling in my nation. I do object to other nations thinking that my nation's economic and political systems are wrong.

Clear now?

Landaman Pendankr dan Samda
Ambassador to the UN
Baron of Khaylamnian Samda

Just say no!

This is taking too long, it should take like only 2 days to get ppl to decide if they want it or not, or may 3 at the most if ppl havent decided by day 3 they aint going to

Do you recall telling the rest of us of mere days ago how we had no life compared to you? One of the reasons resolutions are debated for 4 and a half days on the UN Floor is because many UN ambassadors do in fact have real lives and are so busy that they don't visit the Halls of the UN on a daily basis.

In other words, the reason we see UN Delegates, such as the Delegate from Gatesville, changing her vote, is she represents hundreds of nations, all working on their own timetables. The point of the UN is to exchange ideas, and that takes time.

Howie T. Katzman

[A few days ago ...]

"Now, Jess, pay attention: this is important. This is your voting card ... Jess, will you stop rubbing up against Cmdr. Chiang's stripper poll and listen to me?"

Jessie groaned and turned to her superior. "Fine, Sammy. I'm listening. Now what's so important you have to interrupt me at work?"

"This isn't 'work,' Jess. This is the Strangers' Bar; you only think this is work because you never do any of it. Now will you pay attention for one moment ... ?"

"Ugh. Fine!"

"Now ... this--" (Sammy held up a small device resembling a credit card, speaking to her with a supremely patronizing tone, as though this were her first day of kindergarten) "--is your voting card. All you have to do is slide it into the electronic device, and type in your access code. Your access code is: ●●●● -- Jess, are you listening?"

Of course, she wasn't, having turned her attention on a hot guy who had just entered the establishment, checking to make sure he couldn't see her talking to Sammy.

"Jess!"

"God, what?! Why do I have to do this, anyway?"

"Because, like I already told you, the vote is going to be called on Saturday, and I'm going to be in Paradise City that day for the treaty signing, so you have to cover for me."

"And why can't Jenny do it?"

"Cmdr. Chiang can't do it because she is going to be bugging the Norderian offices-- er, I mean, she's busy. Now our corporate sponsors have made it clear they want a yes vote on this proposal, being that it is sponsored by an important ally, and they really want their rights to force laborers to work grudging 15-hour days without any breaktime to be protected. You don't even have to speak; you just have to vote for it. Um, Jess?"

The deputy ambassador's gaze had shifted once again to Hot Guy. "Oh, shit! He's looking at me!" she panicked. Immediately she turned back to her boss and slapped him hard on the cheek. "For the millionth time, NO, I'm not going to dance with you, pervert!" she shouted obviously.

Hot Guy had moved on. "Did he see that?" she inquired. "Was I convincing?"

Sammy clutched his cheek. "Uhh, yes ..." he said bemusedly. "You are the master of thespian arts."

Jessie turned on him, her eyes blazing. "What did you just call me?!" she demanded.

"Nothing," Sammy sighed. "Now, I did a favor for you ..." He held out her voting card with a hinting cough.

She took it. "Fine; I'll vote for your stupid proposal," she consented, starting toward the main exit.

"Did you remember what I told you about how to vote?" he asked after her.

"Well, duh, moron; it's not brain surgery!"

"Well, actually, speaking of brains, your mind will be wiped if you accidentally push--"

"Will ya get off my back already? God!"

"Jesus fucking Christ," Sammy exclaimed, clutching his cheek again while heading for a side door.

* * * * *

Jessie slouched in Sammy's usual chair in the General Assembly hall, antsily shifting around in her seat. Shit, she'd picked a bad morning to run out of Ritalin ... must ... resist ... urge ... to slather ... breasts ... with whipped cream ...

"... and upon further reading of Resolution #67, interpreting the word 'is' to mean 'militant breast-feeding moms,' and 'recognizes' to mean 'Incredible Hulk SMASH!!!', it is painfully clear that, interpreting this article's citation of 'individual freedoms' to mean 'giant radioactive mutating squid,' this proposal -- if one reads it upside-down while cross-eyed and glaring at it through a kaleidoscope -- actually commands us to eat our children! Now, Madame Secretary-General, I'd like to amend my statement for the record to include 18 pages of non-germane footnotes. Footnote the first ..."

Shit, is that lady from Community Property ever going to shut the hell up? Jessie thought exasperatingly to herself. Man, I could really use a drink right now ... where's Sen. Sulla when you need him? She glanced over at The Palentine's table to find the man, securely cradling his Wild Turkey bottle, passed out on his desk.

Damn ...

"... Would the gentleman from Gruenberg care to respond?"

"Gladly, Madame Secretary-General. -ahem!- ... Fuck, fuck, fuck, shit, fuck ... arse, twat ... shit ... fuck ... up your fucking arse ... fuck, fuck, fuck, Barbra Streisand ..."

The most intelligent speech she'd heard all day, Jessie agreed to herself.

"... For what purpose does the gentleman from Cluichstan rise?"

"Madame Secretary-General, the people of Cluichstan would like to remind everybody that we have a fricking Death Star (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?showtopic=142), man! ..."

Shit, did Sammy have to listen to this crap all day? Man, his job is soooooooo boring ... of course, Sammy's pretty fucking boring to start off with, so it's perfect for him, actually ...

"... Death Star ... Death Star ... Death Star ... did I mention we have a Death Star (http://z11.invisionfree.com/Antarctic_Oasis/index.php?showtopic=142)? ..."

Why won't his debate fucking end?! Jessie screamed inside her head. Get on with it already! And that Jimayo guy's sworn more than once in this debate; why hasn't he been removed yet?! Man, that Tommo the Stout is one sexy--

"... Madame Secretary-General, it is with sadness that I report that the Gatesville Princess of Nevadar has changed her vote yet again in this discussion. Being in a wildly erotic mood, she'd now like to abstain. Or nuke Norderia. Um, is that an option? ..."

Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up ... aw, screw this. I'm outta here! Angrily Jessie rose from her seat and turned toward the aisle.

"For what purpose does the lady from the Federal Republic rise?"

"Erm?" Horrified, Jessie realized the secretary-general was talking to her.

"Does the Federal Republic have anything to say on this matter?"

"Uhh, sure ..." she stammered, clutching her rack. "CLEAVAGE!!!! WHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" she shrieked, to wild applause.

"... Um, OK then ..."

"Madame Secretary-General, at this time, we request a recorded vote."

"A request for a recorded vote has been made. Those in favor will rise ... a sufficient number having arisen, the yeas and nays are ordered. This will be a vote by electronic device ..."

About fucking time! Jessie thought as she raced for the vote recorder, pushing several ambassadors out of the way. Dutifully she slid her card into the machine, like Sammy had told her:Welcome, JESSIE McARTHUR. Please enter your access code.She typed in the four-digit pin. Come on ... come on ...Invalid code entered. Please try again.Damn it! Again she entered the pin. That bastard Sammy better not have given me the wrong number--Invalid code entered. Now you have to show us your boobs.What the fuck is wrong with this thing? Jessie demanded, striking it:That's it! I've been a bad boy! Punish me!Has Hack been screwing with this thing? Aw, shit. Maybe Sammy's code will work ...Welcome, SAMMY FAISANO. Please indicate OMIGODTHEYKILLEDKENNY's vote on this motion.Success! Now, what's the code for yes? ...Invalid code entered. Please try again.Dammit!!! beep-beep-beep ...SAMMY FAISANO is now registered as a sex offender in Sovereign UN Territory. Thank you for fulfilling your obligation under the law, you fucking pervert.What the fuck?! Desperately Jessie tried another code ...SAMMY FAISANO has been placed on Sovereign UN Territory's Terror Watch List. In accordance with UN Resolution #168 (http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_past_resolutions/start=167), your assets have been seized. Where's your Allah now?!Heh. This thing might be useful after all, Jessie smiled to herself. Behind her she could hear an expectant cough and a foot tapping impatiently. She turned to find a robed Nuncio glowering at her. Angrily she raised her baby tee to flash him. "Cute One preserve me!" the Nuncio begged, covering his eyes and fleeing the chamber. Triumphantly Jessie snorted and turned back to the blasted machine and tried another code:Congratulations, SAMMY FAISANO. You have cast the 10,000,000th vote in the NSUN's history! You win 10,000 UN credits, redeemable at any UN store or establishment. What a pity we've already seized all your assets!Jessie kicked the device with frustrated scream, angrily storming up the aisle for the double doors.

"Hold it right there! Voter fraud is a crime, Miss McArthur ..."

Jessie turned about to find a pair of scummy gnomes with handcuffs. Instinctively, she pulled her Colt revolver from her purse and shot the first one. The remaining gnome looked down on his fallen comrade and turned dangerously toward the deputy ambassador. "Shooting a gnome is also a crime ..."

BANG!

"You forget, bitch, I have diplomatic immunity," she said with a huff and strode toward the hallway, trying to remember which way the God-damned Strangers' Bar was.

I'd like to report the theft of some of my government's "Special" Spice Melange ... we have reason to believe the theft occured just "a few days ago".

[A few days ago ...]

*snip*I'd like to report the theft of some of my government's "Special" Spice Melange ... we have reason to believe the theft occured just "a few days ago".A kleptomaniac Kennyite in a chemically altered state? That's crazy! You're crazy, Mik! ... :p

A kleptomaniac Kennyite in a chemically altered state? That's crazy! You're crazy, Mik! ... :p

No, a kleptomaniac Kennyite not in a chemically altered state is crazy.:p

What? This resolution removes the UN from the affairs of the individual nation, which increases national sovereignty. I suppose that yes, you are at least a little bit correct, in that I support UN legislation that prevents further UN meddling in my nation. I do object to other nations thinking that my nation's economic and political systems are wrong.

Clear now?

Landaman Pendankr dan Samda
Ambassador to the UN
Baron of Khaylamnian Samda

What is clear is that the proposal does the opposite of what you claim:

"1. Requires member nations to grant their people the greatest possible degree1 of freedom in determining their terms of employment, with specific regard to working time;"

This clause means that my nation cannot set a maximum work week of 60 hours, nor a minimum work week of 20 hours, or any other such local national mandates. It does not say the United Nations can't do this, it says the members of the United Nations cannot pass such laws internally.


"2. Calls upon member nations to respect the rights of individuals to be free to make choices about their terms of employment, and equally of individuals to seek representation or counsel during such negotiations;"

And member nations are required to pass laws requiring individuals to be able to call their lawyers and review contracts before signing them!

"3. Mandates the removal of working time regulations that serve only to reduce individual liberty, and that unfairly remove decision-making power from the individual level;"

Further specifies that individual nations cannot pass laws regarding work time.

"4. Reserves the right of nations to choose whether to set specific regulations on workweeks and working time in the general public interest, so long as such regulations do not unduly abridge the freedom of individuals in deciding their terms of employment;"

A small out, but then we will have workers taking ther case to the UN court that they feel 20 hours of community service a week is "unduly abridging their freedom", and if we end up with a one of those activist judges, there goes our local national laws.

"5. Endorses policies aimed at delegating decisions concerning working time regulations to the most local level possible;"

Again, this denies nations the ability to set their own laws.

"6. Promotes a healthy harmony of national and individual rights in economic decision-making."

Feel good clap trap

This resolution removes the ability of Nations to self govern and leaves everything in the hands of business and the individuals.

What is clear is that the proposal does the opposite of what you claim:

"1. Requires member nations to grant their people the greatest possible degree1 of freedom in determining their terms of employment, with specific regard to working time;"

This clause means that my nation cannot set a maximum work week of 60 hours, nor a minimum work week of 20 hours, or any other such local national mandates. It does not say the United Nations can't do this, it says the members of the United Nations cannot pass such laws internally.

Greatest possible freedom means "however much you feel is necessary. If the average day on Imperia Prime is the equivalent of 700 Earth hours, is a 40 hour workweek advatageous for Imperia Prime? If you say yes you're crazy.




"2. Calls upon member nations to respect the rights of individuals to be free to make choices about their terms of employment, and equally of individuals to seek representation or counsel during such negotiations;"

And member nations are required to pass laws requiring individuals to be able to call their lawyers and review contracts before signing them!

This clause is worded to be non-binding. "Calls upon" means "asks nicely." It also doesn't mandate laws like you elucidate above, it merely states that people should be able to have lawyers. In the Empire, any person with a noble rank is considered a lawyer and able to settle regional disputes. If a person has an issue with Imperial Interstellar Law, he seeks out a member of the Agundan (the people who enforce and interpret Imperial law). We already have those laws in place, noting that this clause doesn't specify what "representation" and "counsel" actually mean.

"3. Mandates the removal of working time regulations that serve only to reduce individual liberty, and that unfairly remove decision-making power from the individual level;"
Further specifies that individual nations cannot pass laws regarding work time.


No. Just, no. Mandates the removal of does not equal You can't make work time laws. That's very clear from the text.

"4. Reserves the right of nations to choose whether to set specific regulations on workweeks and working time in the general public interest, so long as such regulations do not unduly abridge the freedom of individuals in deciding their terms of employment;"

A small out, but then we will have workers taking ther case to the UN court that they feel 20 hours of community service a week is "unduly abridging their freedom", and if we end up with a one of those activist judges, there goes our local national laws.

What? Just up above you said that nations couldn't pass worktime laws, but the NEXT CLAUSE states that nations can choose specific workweek and workingtime legislation.

And what are you on about with this "UN Court" and community service? Activist judges? Huh? The UN has no court, and no judicial system. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

"5. Endorses policies aimed at delegating decisions concerning working time regulations to the most local level possible;"

Again, this denies nations the ability to set their own laws.

Wrong again, but hey, why stop now! The most local level possible does not mean individuals. It means "local government." At least, that's how the legislation is interpreted in the Empire. And, since every planet has an Imperial governor, that would be the most local Imperial level. Problem solved! See, you don't seem to understand that a national government has some form of control over the cities and towns in it's jurisdiction. If it didn't, it wouldn't be a government, it'd be a bunch of disillusioned old white guys sitting in a ig building writing things no one will ever read.

OOC: Actually, that sounds quite a bit like the US Congress...

"6. Promotes a healthy harmony of national and individual rights in economic decision-making."

Feel good clap trap

This resolution removes the ability of Nations to self govern and leaves everything in the hands of business and the individuals.

IC: I've proven you wrong at every turn. Thank you, come again!


At this junction, I would like to congratulate Gruenberg on what appears to be a victory. In a few modest hours,(barring any unforseen circumstances) this law will be on the books.

Landaman Pendankr dan Samda
Ambassador to the UN
Baron of Khaylamnian Samda

Get a fucking grip people. I said some naughty words - who, frankly, gives a shit?

You're right - it's not a hugely effective debating tactic. It's a very poor one, actually. So stop fucking concentrating on it! If you continue to complain everytime I dip into my Anglo-Saxon phrasebook, you're only allowing my poor debating tactic to win through - you're being distracted from the issue. Genuinely good debaters would ignore every word thrown about in anger, and carry on resolutely with their point. That you choose to start wagging your finger at me only indicates your inability to separate reason from emotion in this debate.

And again, you're right - it's not a good debating tactic. But really, you give me too much. I'm not using it as a tactic - it's just part of how I talk, who I am. It's how I've always addressed the GA. If it bothers you that much - I'm a reasonable guy. Ask me to cut it out, and I'll gladly do so.

OOC: Please cut it out... because it activates the filters on the computer-system at work, so that I can't check the threads concerned (during my tea-breaks & lunchtime) there.

OOC: Please cut it out... because it activates the filters on the computer-system at work, so that I can't check the threads concerned (during my tea-breaks & lunchtime) there.

OOC: Get back to work, ya bum! :p

*beats St Edmund with a stick*

The sound of the disturbance from the Kennyite section finally roused Sen. Sulla from his whiskey soddened nap. Bleary eyed he noticed the gnomes and instinctively reached for his Colt 1911a, and his Wild Turkey. Staggering to his feet he sluured to his colleagues watching with bated breath. A few of course were taking odds on whether his liver would finally give out. Others(with more sense) were nervously preparing to dive under their desks if he started firing.

"Lhaadish and Gentlenmhen! Firstly I whish to congratul...gongrat...ah the hell with it, give my warm whishes to L&E on the *hic* birth of hisss twinssss. Now thhhat I did my good deed forst the day...on to businessss.*takes a swig from his bottle* Damn, Itssss empty! Anywho The phalentine whishes to annnounnce its shupport for this shere resolution."
*he collapses to his chair*

Last UN Decision

The resolution Individual Working Freedoms was passed 7,812 votes to 6,595, and implemented in all UN member nations.Eight-point margin ain't too shabby. Nice work, Gruen. I'd congratulate you IC but both of my ambassadors are out of commission for the moment.

OOC: Anyone else notice that on the compliance ministry telegram this time, Compliance Ministry is in blue?

oh good, i thought i was going nuts when i saw that.

even if you have older messages from the complience ministry, they are blue as well.

OOC: Anyone else notice that on the compliance ministry telegram this time, Compliance Ministry is in blue?
Mine is still in plain black. *pouts*

Mine was blue as well.

Didn't you people read the news?
http://www.nationstates.net/news/2006/09/06/index.html#tg_colors
It was three whole days ago. :p

/me peeks at one puppet's message. yup. orange too. nice SS!

Why then is mine still black? This is an outrage! I demand satisfaction!

Why then is mine still black? This is an outrage! I demand satisfaction!It is obviously a slight against those of us with leftist governments. Yet one more element of a giant conspiracy. ;)

Did anyone notice any stats changes? It seems like tax rates decreased slightly, and also possibly Welfare spending...but no improvement in the economy?

Much like issues, effects aren't necessarily visible, depending on your stats.

We just happened to be passing through en route to the taxi stand (as OSSA has passed, so the work of our Observer Mission here is done), but we did get some news this morning that will cheer you up: Apparently Community Property's economy tanked in the wake of passage. Not that they care, being a bunch of barefoot, nature-loving hippies and all.

We figure that it was probably from everyone cutting back on their work hours to pick flowers or go birding or such.

Did anyone notice any stats changes? It seems like tax rates decreased slightly, and also possibly Welfare spending...but no improvement in the economy?
* ooc: Dashanzi's economy weakened from Powerhouse to Thriving. However:

Murderers frequently escape punishment by claiming they were protecting their honour, several citizens have complained about scientists abducting their pets for experimentation, major cities shut down as their local sports team takes to the field every day, and all forms of advertising are banned.
I understand that banning advertising may be the main reason for the economic downturn. *