NationStates Jolt Archive

I looked through the entire list of past UN resolutions and found none of them that had to do with protecting homeschoolers rights. Since this is a very relevant issue in today's world, with the vast majority of nations having outlawed homeschooling, I believe that this would be a good issue for the NSUN to address with a resolution. We can at least give good parents their due in the NS world.

Here's an initial draft of the proposal. I welcome comments and peer review.

THE UN,

RECOGNIZING the many benefits of free, voluntary systems of public education,

ENCOURAGING the continuation thereof,

NOTICING the many benefits of homeschooling, including but not limited to more personal attention given to each individual student and a friendly, character building environment,

TAKING NOTE of the huge success of homeschooled students in higher learning and standards of living,

BELIEVING that parental rights, including the right to personally educate their child, should be respected by the UN,

THE UN, THEREFORE,

DISCOURAGES

A. Any UN member state from making it illegal for parents to homeschool their children,

B. Any UN member state from passing overly restrictive laws that unfairly discriminate against homeschooling families,

C. DEFINES overly restrictive as meaning the authorized forced entry of social workers who do not have a court order of search, as well as any other invasions of the privacy of respectable homeschooled families,

REGRETING that there will always be a minority of neglectful, uncaring parents who would fain use the privacy rights advocated in this resolution as a way to escape their duties of parenthood,

D. SUGGESTS that UN member states that allow homeschooling to establish reasonable, fair and non-oppressive statues of accountability for all responsible homeschooling families, and to take whatever punitive measures that any nation shall deem appropriate against deceitful parents trying to abuse the system,

F. THEREFORE, the UN shall establish the United Nations Bureau of Educational Freedom(UNBEF) whose duties shall be to,

1. Encourage the legalization of homeschooling in all UN member states.

2. Provide a yearly report to the UN on the success of national accountability laws of compiling UN members, and reports on the progress of educational freedom of all UN members.

3. Assist any UN member state that requests their help in the successful implementation of this resolution.

Considering that state-run propoganda schools are considered the backbone to some societies, I think no.

This resolution doesn't abolish state run propaganda schools, if that's what you want your nation to have.

Parental Rights are very important and should be respected even by dictatorships.

After all, who says that homeschooled parents in a brain-washed dictatorship are going to teach anything other than what they have been taught all their lives? Those governments will just get kids that not only believe the same thing, but are a real asset to their society.

Anyway, the resolution never says that the government can't regulate the curricula if they are despotic enough to do so.

Considering that state-run propoganda schools are considered the backbone to some societies, I think no.

Really? It is shocking to see how people don't want freedom in their countries.

Anyways, Andrssia, 'tis a very good proposition you have there. It doesn't look like you left anything out. Good work-- I'll support it.

~Tekneon

BELIEVING that the ultimate responsibility of the education of a child should rest with the parent, not the state,
Not really; many parents aren't really able to teach their children well, or don't care enough.

The Congressional Republic believes that this is a national concern; and that this resolution constitutes pointless micromanagement. Different nations have different needs. Ceorana, for instance, allows homeschooling, but allows inspectors and standardized tests to make sure that students' learning is up to scratch. We would ask that this resolution preferably be scrapped entirely, or else at least allow nations to institute inspectors and tests comparable or even slightly more stringent than in regular classrooms. More inspection would be necessary because the majority of homeschooling parents do not hold teaching degrees and may therefore be incompetent at teaching their children the appropriate skills and information.

Not really; many parents aren't really able to teach their children well, or don't care enough.

The Congressional Republic believes that this is a national concern; and that this resolution constitutes pointless micromanagement. Different nations have different needs. Ceorana, for instance, allows homeschooling, but allows inspectors and standardized tests to make sure that students' learning is up to scratch. We would ask that this resolution preferably be scrapped entirely, or else at least allow nations to institute inspectors and tests comparable or even slightly more stringent than in regular classrooms. More inspection would be necessary because the majority of homeschooling parents do not hold teaching degrees and may therefore be incompetent at teaching their children the appropriate skills and information.

Alrighty so, what you're saying is you need a degree to teach you kid the ABCs. I don't think so. If you know how to read then you can teach someone to read-- maybe not as well as someone else but the message still get through.

Now, On the other hand there may be parents who haven't gone through High-School and are trying to teach their teen-age kid. The parent may or may not know how to teach classes like "Biology" or other advanced classes like that.

I think that possibly the countries, themselves, would have their own rules set up, so this would fall under--

"E. SENSIBLY COMMANDS UN member states to establish reasonable, fair and non-oppressive statues of accountability for all responsible homeschooling families, and to take whatever punitive measures that any nation shall deem appropriate against deceitful parents trying to abuse the system,"

Thanks,

~Tek

Alrighty so, what you're saying is you need a degree to teach you kid the ABCs. I don't think so. If you know how to read then you can teach someone to read-- maybe not as well as someone else but the message still get through.

Now, On the other hand there may be parents who haven't gone through High-School and are trying to teach their teen-age kid. The parent may or may not know how to teach classes like "Biology" or other advanced classes like that.

I think that possibly the countries, themselves, would have their own rules set up, so this would fall under--

"E. SENSIBLY COMMANDS UN member states to establish reasonable, fair and non-oppressive statues of accountability for all responsible homeschooling families, and to take whatever punitive measures that any nation shall deem appropriate against deceitful parents trying to abuse the system,"

Thanks,

~Tek
I don't think it goes far enough though. You're banning social workers searching the area of education without probable cause for a court order (in Ceorana anyway), something that doesn't happen with regular schools.

I'm not convinced that any man off the street who doesn't have a teaching degree will be able to teach a child basic stuff that is learned in school. This is an issue that should be left to nations.

OOC: I can't bring myself to post any serious comment here until that silly coloured text goes away.

You do know what "OOC" means right?

Anyway--any guy off the street could tell you the Alphabet I'm sure. those who can't probably have no kids.

Nonetheless according to the this proposal it is the Nation's job to enforce proper restrictions on those who are not able to teach their kids--that could mean you nation could make it agains the law for a homeschooler to get an "F" thereby having a Legal case against the family. ((alowing you to search the house or what ever))

And, I'm not taking the color off my text just because it irks you a bit

THE UN,

RECOGNIZING the many benefits of a free, voluntary system of public education,

ENCOURAGING the continuation thereof,

NOTICING the many benefits of homeschooling, including but not limited to more personal attention and a friendly environment,

*mutters something about the misconceptions of the public system

TAKING NOTE of the huge success of homeschooled students in higher learning and standards of living,

BELIEVING that the ultimate responsibility of the education of a child should rest with the parent, not the state,

Nay. Considering most industrialized nations have an age range within which the parents get charged if they're child is in school, that shows the responsibility lies with the state. The responsibility of whether his or her son/daughter does well or not does rest with the parent as the state really can't do much more than encourage.

THE UN, THEREFORE,

A. BANS any UN member state from making it illegal for parents to homeschool their children,

Again, this hinders dictatorships from doing having their propoganda schools from being the method to indoctrinate all their citizens - allowing any citizens to be homeschooled or schooled by any method other than the public system damages their government.

B. FORBIDS any UN member state from passing overly restrictive laws that unfairly discriminate against homeschooling families,

C. DEFINES overly restrictive as meaning the authorized forced entry of social workers who do not have a court order of search, as well as any other invasions of the privacy of respectable homeschooled families,

Hmm.....there needs to be a clause in here that permits inspections of schooling environment and compliance with the curriculum. Personally, I think it would be difficult not to justify such inspections since, quite frankly, the situation might be that the child is cut off from the outside world and unable to send out an SOS if there are problems - either because they aren't allowed or are unaware of the services available out there.

D. REGRETS that there will always be a minority of neglectful, uncaring parents who would fain use the privacy rights advocated in this resolution as a way to escape their duties of parenthood,

This is a preamble or epilogue statement. It really doesn't belong as an active clause.

E. SENSIBLY COMMANDS UN member states to establish reasonable, fair and non-oppressive statues of accountability for all responsible homeschooling families, and to take whatever punitive measures that any nation shall deem appropriate against deceitful parents trying to abuse the system,

Drop sensibly. You're adding an opinion of quality to an order - makes you sound arrogant.

This might cover my comments above. I'll need to think

F. THEREFORE, the UN shall establish the United Nations Bureau of Educational Freedom(UNBEF) whose duties shall be to,

1. Enforce this resolution in all UN member states,

Questionable legality. You'll want a mod ruling for sure on that one.

2. Provide a yearly report to the UN on the success of national accountability laws and educational freedom of all UN members,

I think this is legally ok, but again something you'll want to check.

3. Assist any UN member state that requests their help in the successful implementation of this resolution.

......ok.... I'm edgy with this one. Not sure what to say about it. It might just be the after effects of the UNSAI.

Tekneon - DROP THE COLOR. It's hard to read and its presence makes you look like you feel your post has more value to our comments than anything else. We don't care and many will ignore you if you continue using color.

"Not really; many parents aren't really able to teach their children well, or don't care enough."

That's why I made punishent of parents that abuse this system part of the resolution.

"The Congressional Republic believes that this is a national concern; and that this resolution constitutes pointless micromanagement."

Parental Rights are a world-wide issue. They are being abused in many countires, and I believe that the UN should take a stand in favor of them.


"Different nations have different needs."

Indeed, I have tried to make this resolution flexible. If you have suggestions of improvement, just mention them.

"Ceorana, for instance, allows homeschooling, but allows inspectors and standardized tests to make sure that students' learning is up to scratch. We would ask that this resolution preferably be scrapped entirely, or else at least allow nations to institute inspectors and tests comparable or even slightly more stringent than in regular classrooms. More inspection would be necessary because the majority of homeschooling parents do not hold teaching degrees and may therefore be incompetent at teaching their children the appropriate skills and information."

I would just like to point out that many homeschooled students are not taught by their parents for just that reason. Many take online courses, listen to tapes, watch lectures, ect. The parents can't do it all. There are many homeschooling helps that exist for parents put together by qualified teachers.

I agree with your statements about strict accountablity laws. I thought that I made that clear in the resolution. If you have any idea on how I could word it better, please mention them, that's what the topic is for.

By the way, thank you forgottenlands for your helpful comments.

"mutters something about the misconceptions of the public system."

What's the misconception? I'll correct it if you tell me.



"Nay. Considering most industrialized nations have an age range within which the parents get charged if they're child is in school, that shows the responsibility lies with the state. The responsibility of whether his or her son/daughter does well or not does rest with the parent as the state really can't do much more than encourage."

The parents choose to make the state responsible for their children if they enroll them in their countries public school system. So they are ultimately the ones that make the decision. What this resolution does is guarantee that they will have more than one option in making that crucial decision.

"Again, this hinders dictatorships from doing having their propoganda schools from being the method to indoctrinate all their citizens - allowing any citizens to be homeschooled or schooled by any method other than the public system damages their government."

I never said that the government couldn't regulate the school material used. If some government wants to teach all their kids about "Mein Kapf" or something like that this resolution doesn't stop them from doing that. It just means that parents will have the option to have their kids indoctrinated at home rather than at school, were you have the benefits of individual attention and a friendly environment.

Anyway, isn't the UN supposed to support the advancement of democracy? Isn't that one of the earliest resolutions? If the only argument against this resolution is that it helps dictators than I think that it will pass.

"Hmm.....there needs to be a clause in here that permits inspections of schooling environment and compliance with the curriculum."

I'm not quite sure what you mean, so why don't you write up what you are talking about and telegram it to me? I will consider your suggestions.

"Personally, I think it would be difficult not to justify such inspections since, quite frankly, the situation might be that the child is cut off from the outside world and unable to send out an SOS if there are problems - either because they aren't allowed or are unaware of the services available out there."

All homeschooled families under this resolution would be accountable to the government to make sure that the above kind of situations wouldn't happen. Inspections can and will occur, you will just need a warrant first. If you fail the accountability standards, be assured that you will have a swift visit from Social Services.

Once again, thank you for your comments.

As a side note - the misconception is the caring part. I actually never had a problem with how caring the teachers were at my schools and I went through public school the entire time. It's more just a personal opinion and probably stems from a good personal experience. Overall, I dislike that part as a generalization. I just dislike the immediate association with family and caring so....yeah.

Nothing major, I just find it a difficult generalization to work with.

1) I would like it if you could add the possibility of "regularly scheduled inspections" alongside warrant. I think it would be a humungous headache to go through all the paperwork for just a routine inspection, and I really do think that such inspections are necessary.

2) Actually....you misunderstand the concept of these propoganda schools. The teachers are all indoctrinated in party methodology and are to report anyone who shows deviances from the expectations so they can be....ahem...."fixed".

Also, the promotion of democracy got repealed last month. The world doesn't give a damn - and it's a damn shame.

3) I really can't agree with you on who's the party responsible. Yes, the parents get the right to choose which institution they want, but it is the state that is responsible to ensure that one IS chosen, that the child IS getting taught and that the parent IS NOT preventing the child from learning. Whether the parent gets to make many choices, it is the state's responsibility in the end. The state asks parents to take on that responsibility and holds them accountable if they fail to - and since the person that holds them accountable is the state, it is the state that holds responsibility.

I really don't think that line is going to help you. I think it'll be a disasterous line to work with and those that agree with you aren't going to need that line to be convinced.

[color="cornflowerblue"]Alrighty so, what you're saying is you need a degree to teach you kid the ABCs. I don't think so. If you know how to read then you can teach someone to read-- maybe not as well as someone else but the message still get through.No they don't need a degree to teach kids the ABC but they do need to speak the national language so the kids can learn it from them if they are to live in a nation that speaks a certain language. All to often the parents can teach but in the wrong language so XYZ don't get you what ABC does in the nation.

Now, On the other hand there may be parents who haven't gone through High-School and are trying to teach their teen-age kid. The parent may or may not know how to teach classes like "Biology" or other advanced classes like that.Thus a need for some time in a public school to insure that all kids learn the basics that they will need to become productive citizens. This is to be able to read, write, and speak in a national language so that you can communicate with others that you will live with. Once the can do this in one language then allow them to expand their learning as they so choose into fields they want to.. Parents still play a role in their eductation as they are the ones who spend most of the time with them.. Schools also help kids learn to interact with others they will later have to work, live, and play with as citizens of a nation. Isolate them at home and they often have trouble fitting into the normal society.

I think that possibly the countries, themselves, would have their own rules set up, so this would fall under--This is why UN needs to stay out of this and let individual nations deal with this issue in the same way they might public education. Here we in public school teach them all to read, write, and speak one language so they can communicate with each other and also teach them about our government and laws so they know then and can make stable citizens when they reach that time in their lives.

"E. SENSIBLY COMMANDS UN member states to establish reasonable, fair and non-oppressive statues of accountability for all responsible homeschooling families, and to take whatever punitive measures that any nation shall deem appropriate against deceitful parents trying to abuse the system,"Here you leave it to the individual nations where it needs to be left period. Most nations deal with parents who fail to let their children get an education in their own ways already so this is not needed. Also our prisons are already crowded thus we don't need reason to send parents to them because they might be teaching their kids that prey is what you do to a God and pray is what you shot and serve for diner. Also take the parents out of the kids lives and you have orphans depending on the state to keep them.

How many times have I said this, the UN has no business dictating to how it's members should run their educational systems.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

OOC: and Tekneon please drop the damn color, it makes it so that I can't read your posts.

Anyway--any guy off the street could tell you the Alphabet I'm sure. those who can't probably have no kids.What the heck do you think they were doing while not attending school to learn their ABC...?

OOC: I beleive that many people today in America would not be here if it was based on their parents having and education. That would include both races, black and white.. as early on not many whites were educated and slaves knew little more than they needed to do their work. So to assume if somebody is not educated that they don't have kids. Well most of the reason there is an issue of abortion is due to a lack of education and kids resulting from this fact.


IC: As far as telling one the ABCs the problem comes in when they can't tell others it in the right language to let folks know what they are saying.

My personal feelings of homeschooling and public ed aside, let me make a few points about some generalizations I'm seeing in this proposal before I go into my opinion of it as a whole.

I hear "friendly" being used in the home schooling description. Give me a reason to believe that such is the case more often than at public or even private schools. If you can't do any better than conjecture, then be rid of the generalization.

The next is that one does not need a teaching degree to teach basic skills. I'll bite. But I will say that one must have a thorough understanding of these basic skills in order to teach them to someone else. The average parent does not have a teaching degree. And I'm willing to bet that a great many of those don't have as strong a command of such concepts that are taught all through school as the author and supportors would like to believe. Having faith in people is a wonderful thing, I applaud the good members for it, but when it comes to the education of children, Norderia does not leave such matters to trust.

The clause beginning with "TAKING NOTE of the huge success" is one that I can argue with. So far as my personal experience with home schooled children extends, a majority of the cases fits in very nicely with the stereotype of a child who is not socially adept due to the deprivation of peer interaction in such a setting as school. I also would like to know where the "huge success" has been reported, and by whom. If there is something to this Homeschooling, we'd be glad to hear it.


Now, as far as the soul of the proposal, the only cases of Home Schooling that Norderia has is in such cases where a personal tutor is appointed to a child who cannot physically attend school. Our system is too well funded to leave parents thinking they can do better. Respectfully, Norderia would likely abstain from this issue should it ever come to vote. We do not feel that it is one the UN should be deciding. The UN might protect the right to an education in all its member nations, or even mandate that a minimum age be reached before an individual may leave school (perhaps excepting where financial needs are a priority and other similar conditions), but such a thing as Homeschooling seems far too particular and non-essential to come under the purview of the UN.

Tommo the Stout
UN Ambassador from Norderia
Regional Delegate of the North Sea

"I hear "friendly" being used in the home schooling description. Give me a reason to believe that such is the case more often than at public or even private schools. If you can't do any better than conjecture, then be rid of the generalization."

The friendly environment stems from the complete lack of peer pressure, bullies and many other stressful things that result from the public school system. No one is going to be pressuring homeschool kids to smoke, cause its their own family that their dealing with.

I probably should make that clearer, thanks for that point.

"The next is that one does not need a teaching degree to teach basic skills. I'll bite. But I will say that one must have a thorough understanding of these basic skills in order to teach them to someone else. The average parent does not have a teaching degree. And I'm willing to bet that a great many of those don't have as strong a command of such concepts that are taught all through school as the author and supportors would like to believe. Having faith in people is a wonderful thing, I applaud the good members for it, but when it comes to the education of children, Norderia does not leave such matters to trust."

I applaud that Norderia takes such a commendable interest in the well-being of its children.

Allow me to point out that
It's true that the average parent doesn't have a teaching degree. Also, the average parent doesn't homeschool. Those who have degrees themselves are much more likely to hoomeschool, so those are the types of parents that we are talking about.My mother has a master's degree's in science ed and taught highschool math and science for several years. She is highly qualified to teach my siblings and I. According to Norderia's laws, she would be unable to do that. I don't think that that is just.

Maybe I could add requirements and standards for the homeschooled parent. Those who want to homeschool but don't have a degree could use online courses for their children, like I have pointed out before.

"The clause beginning with "TAKING NOTE of the huge success" is one that I can argue with. So far as my personal experience with home schooled children extends, a majority of the cases fits in very nicely with the stereotype of a child who is not socially adept due to the deprivation of peer interaction in such a setting as school."

You must not have had lots of experiance with homeschooled students. I assure you, the entire stereotype of the antisocial homeschool student couldn't be further from the truth. The students I know are involved in national debate leagues, competitive swim teams, teenpact, and even go on campaign trails for political candidates that they support. Homeschooled students are actually more active socially than the vast majority of public school students.

"I also would like to know where the "huge success" has been reported, and by whom. If there is something to this Homeschooling, we'd be glad to hear it."

Homeschooled students consistently score much, much better on standardised public school tests than public school students themselves. I didn't want to mention that because it would be bragging, but homeschooled students are in general just smarter than their peers. This has been proven over and over by studies and statistics.

"Now, as far as the soul of the proposal, the only cases of Home Schooling that Norderia has is in such cases where a personal tutor is appointed to a child who cannot physically attend school. Our system is too well funded to leave parents thinking they can do better. "

What about parents whose religious beliefs, such as Amish, forbid them
from sending their kids to public schools? You nation oppresses those people.


"Respectfully, Norderia would likely abstain from this issue should it ever come to vote. We do not feel that it is one the UN should be deciding. The UN might protect the right to an education in all its member nations, or even mandate that a minimum age be reached before an individual may leave school (perhaps excepting where financial needs are a priority and other similar conditions), but such a thing as Homeschooling seems far too particular and non-essential to come under the purview of the UN."

You are welcome to your opinon and I thank you for your input.

How many times have I said this, the UN has no business dictating to how it's members should run their educational systems.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

OOC: and Tekneon please drop the damn color, it makes it so that I can't read your posts.

What the Don said.

The friendly environment stems from the complete lack of peer pressure, bullies and many other stressful things that result from the public school system. No one is going to be pressuring homeschool kids to smoke, cause its their own family that their dealing with.

If that's your point, absolutely, positively opposed. I had assumed it was from the concept that a parent might be a more caring teacher than a public servant - something I could live with.

Quite frankly, the issue of having to deal with bullies is a GOOD thing. The issue of having to deal with peer pressure is a GOOD thing. The issue of having to deal with stress is a REALLY GOOD thing.

Why?

School is there to prepare you for life. That doesn't just stem from making sure you learn the right stuff, but the social skills, the mental skills, and the ability to be analytical on not just the material but life in general. Am I saying that bullying shouldn't be prevented? No. Am I saying that peer pressure doesn't have negative sides to it? No. However, they'll have to deal with these issues sometime in their life because there are people in the real world who have never gotten past the bullying age. Peer pressure I experience all the time in University ("Have a beer", "have ten beers", "wanna smoke a joint", "want a cigarette", "dump her", etc, etc, etc) and it ISN'T just from my friends at school, its from those that I work with during the summer, it's from my Profs, it's from my student leaders, it's from the clubs. Peer pressure is everywhere and it is important that a child learns to deal with it - especially when they're young where there is always time for a second chance. Once you get into the work world, that doesn't happen.

And I'll be damned if there's a single successful person in the workforce that didn't have to deal with stress.

Alrighty so, what you're saying is you need a degree to teach you kid the ABCs. I don't think so. If you know how to read then you can teach someone to read-- maybe not as well as someone else but the message still get through.

This would probably be more difficult in cultures that used non-alphabetic forms of writing...

It's true that the average parent doesn't have a teaching degree. Also, the average parent doesn't homeschool. Those who have degrees themselves are much more likely to hoomeschool, so those are the types of parents that we are talking about.My mother has a master's degree's in science ed and taught highschool math and science for several years. She is highly qualified to teach my siblings and I. According to Norderia's laws, she would be unable to do that. I don't think that that is just.

Homeschooled students consistently score much, much better on standardised public school tests than public school students themselves. I didn't want to mention that because it would be bragging, but homeschooled students are in general just smarter than their peers. This has been proven over and over by studies and statistics.

Maybe these two facts are related, and the children of those better-educated-than-average (& maybe actually brighter-than-average) parents would themselves still do better than average if they were in the state (or, as you call it, 'public') schools -- instead of being homeschooled -- too?

I don't think this needs to be done as a proposal, though it would likely be very good as a Daily Issue. Have you considered trying to write one of those?

I don't think this needs to be done as a proposal, though it would likely be very good as a Daily Issue. Have you considered trying to write one of those?

That's actually a very good idea.

I agree with the members from Enn and Cluichstan.

I also want to comment on a remark that the good member made in response to my earlier post. I also want to thank them for their civility in opposition.

The students I know are involved in national debate leagues, competitive swim teams, teenpact, and even go on campaign trails for political candidates that they support. Homeschooled students are actually more active socially than the vast majority of public school students.

First, I want to mention that stereotypes have to come from somewhere. I would not argue that they are true in every case, or even a majority of cases, but in enough cases that it was notable enough to give birth to a stereotype. The concerns are not unfounded. Beyond that, the clubs and leagues you mention are all in an academic setting. I had intended to speak of purely casual social settings. As the Representative of Forgottenlands mentioned, removing children from the sometimes hostile setting of classroom education may prove to be sheltering them to an extent that later proves detrimental to the child.

Again, I recommend that this issue be submitted to the daily issues section. It has the feel of it that seems to fit nicely with it.

Do be sure that if you decide to go that route, that you leave plenty of options. I often find myself dismissing two or three choice issues because of the poor fit of the options.



Tommo the Stout
UN Ambassador of Norderia
Delegate from the North Sea

Alrighty so, what you're saying is you need a degree to teach you kid the ABCs. I don't think so. If you know how to read then you can teach someone to read-- maybe not as well as someone else but the message still get through.


Uh-huh, and you don't need to pull your kid out of school to teach them either. (OOC: Really, my parents taught me to read before I went to school; and have continually taught me more then school ever did...but I still go to school). Although the resolution is far more well thought out then I expected, I still think it's a bit of a non-issue for the UN. I mean, you don't need to pull your kid out of school in order to teach them yourself...heck, if you ask me it's a better system, it provided multiple learning paths and sources of information, creating a stronger and more critical mind in the child. Not that I dislike homeschooling, but it's just a wee-bit below the UN in my opinion.

We will not support micro-management of our education system. The excellent standards of Ariddian education have been commended by the United Nations, and are due in great part to compulsory schooling. We encourage parents to have an active role as parents, but we will not allow parents to withdraw their children from school.

Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

We don't really care who teaches our children, so long as they stick to the basic curriculum (Wenaism is the one true faith, foreign infidels will die, abstinence is the only way to stop STDs, women are genetically inferior, that sort of thing), so we allow home-schooling. As always, we oppose any attempt at micromanagement of domestic education policy with vigour.

~Lori Jiffjeff
Acting Ambassador
Legal Aide
Minister of Sandy Vaginas
Chair of "Mothers Against Weird Shit"

We don't really care who teaches our children, so long as they stick to the basic curriculum (Wenaism is the one true faith, foreign infidels will die, abstinence is the only way to stop STDs, women are genetically inferior, that sort of thing), so we allow home-schooling. As always, we oppose any attempt at micromanagement of domestic education policy with vigour.

~Lori Jiffjeff
Acting Ambassador
Legal Aide
Minister of Sandy Vaginas
Chair of "Mothers Against Weird Shit"

Hmm........

"IRCO Free Condom Program"

If that's your point, absolutely, positively opposed. I had assumed it was from the concept that a parent might be a more caring teacher than a public servant - something I could live with.

Quite frankly, the issue of having to deal with bullies is a GOOD thing. The issue of having to deal with peer pressure is a GOOD thing. The issue of having to deal with stress is a REALLY GOOD thing.

Why?

School is there to prepare you for life. That doesn't just stem from making sure you learn the right stuff, but the social skills, the mental skills, and the ability to be analytical on not just the material but life in general. Am I saying that bullying shouldn't be prevented? No. Am I saying that peer pressure doesn't have negative sides to it? No. However, they'll have to deal with these issues sometime in their life because there are people in the real world who have never gotten past the bullying age. Peer pressure I experience all the time in University ("Have a beer", "have ten beers", "wanna smoke a joint", "want a cigarette", "dump her", etc, etc, etc) and it ISN'T just from my friends at school, its from those that I work with during the summer, it's from my Profs, it's from my student leaders, it's from the clubs. Peer pressure is everywhere and it is important that a child learns to deal with it - especially when they're young where there is always time for a second chance. Once you get into the work world, that doesn't happen.

And I'll be damned if there's a single successful person in the workforce that didn't have to deal with stress.

You misunderstand. What I am saying is that being homeschooled prepares one for the stress of adult life before actually entering it. The family enviroment that the child grows up in often instills in them a strong sense of morality from an early age. Through the frequent contact with their parents, their parents have many opportunites to build the character of a child. This is opposed to sending them at a very young age into the public school system, were they will encounter things such as peer pressure before they can handle it, and they therefore succumb to it.

How many times have I said this, the UN has no business dictating to how it's members should run their educational systems.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative



Agreed. The UN does, however, have a responsibility to promote human rights, as is seen by the multiple resolutions on that subject. We are dealing with parental rights here, one of the most basic rights of humanity. The UN should acknowledge parental rights in some way, which is what I am trying to get started. Homeschooling is just the most well-known issue that has to do with parental rights.

Maybe these two facts are related, and the children of those better-educated-than-average (& maybe actually brighter-than-average) parents would themselves still do better than average if they were in the state (or, as you call it, 'public') schools -- instead of being homeschooled -- too?

Nope. The high test scores are the direct result not only of qualified parents teaching them, but also of the personal attention that you receive, something that you won't get in a public school class of 25. There is also the complete lack of the distractions that abound in public schools that can take the mind of off learning.

I don't think this needs to be done as a proposal, though it would likely be very good as a Daily Issue. Have you considered trying to write one of those?

I am sorry, I am new here and have no idea what a Daily Issue is. Could you please explain?

We will not support micro-management of our education system. The excellent standards of Ariddian education have been commended by the United Nations, and are due in great part to compulsory schooling. We encourage parents to have an active role as parents, but we will not allow parents to withdraw their children from school.

Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

What oppression. What about people whose religious beliefs conflict with sending their kids to public school, such as the Amish? What about parental rights?

Schooling is always compulsory. It can be either homeschooling or private school or public school, but it is always compulsory, and that's how it should be. Why not allow qualified parents to teach their kids at home, get young people who are extremely smart and a benefit to society, and save your taxpayers the thousands of dollars that it would take to put that one kid through public school? Your position makes no sense at all.



I also want to comment on a remark that the good member made in response to my earlier post. I also want to thank them for their civility in opposition.

First, I want to mention that stereotypes have to come from somewhere. I would not argue that they are true in every case, or even a majority of cases, but in enough cases that it was notable enough to give birth to a stereotype. The concerns are not unfounded. Beyond that, the clubs and leagues you mention are all in an academic setting. I had intended to speak of purely casual social settings. As the Representative of Forgottenlands mentioned, removing children from the sometimes hostile setting of classroom education may prove to be sheltering them to an extent that later proves detrimental to the child.

Tommo the Stout
UN Ambassador of Norderia
Delegate from the North Sea

I believe that the stereotype of the antisocial homeschooler was completely invented by the public school bureaucracy that discourages homeschooling. I have been homeschooled for over ten years, and I assure you, it is a myth, pure and simple.

Schooling is always compulsory. It can be either homeschooling or private school or public school, but it is always compulsory.
Perhaps you'd care to demonstrate the UN resolution that makes schooling compulsory?

I wasn't speaking of the UN as a whole. I was speaking to the nation that I was responding to, were schooling is compulsory. Hope that clears things up.

OOC: I can answer your question to Enn about Daily Issues.
On your nation's page, you receive "Issues" to deal with on a basis chosen through your settings. These issues are submitted by nations, approved by a moderator, and added to the list of randomly selected issues that come up for each individual nation.

What oppression. What about people whose religious beliefs conflict with sending their kids to public school, such as the Amish?

There are no Amish in Ariddia.


What about parental rights?


Parents are entitled, and indeed encouraged, to supplement school education. But "home schooling" may not replace going to school. Ariddia prides itself on its excellent education system, and will not approve a proposal which may jeopardise it.


Why not allow qualified parents to teach their kids at home, get young people who are extremely smart and a benefit to society, and save your taxpayers the thousands of dollars that it would take to put that one kid through public school? Your position makes no sense at all.


Before the honourable delegate makes a fool of himself, perhaps he should find out a little more about the basics of Ariddia's economy (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Ariddian_economy)? 1. Our society is essentially moneyless. 2. Given that it's a moneyless economy, our education system is not funded by tax money in the conventional sense. 3. Our citizens are not self-centred capitalists, and do not object to paying tax.

The honourable delegate is obviously confused. Or simply misinformed.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

I've been reading this thread with interest, and just have a couple of comments.

From what I can see, this proposal really isn't taking the different cultures of the thousands of UN nations into account. Not all nations value education highly, some of us don't recognise any "rights" of parents over children, and others have good reasons to refuse to allow home schooling.

My nation has an excellent education system, it eats up the majority of our budget and we don't and won't permit children to be home schooled. We are a socialist nation and our children are raised much more by their community than their parents because all adults work. Most of them full time. They start off in care creches soon after birth or when the mother decides to stop breast feeding, and then at age 2 or so move through to early learning environments, then school. We also insist that all children are taught by qualified teachers, and learn the same curriculum. This system has kept our education standards high and home schooling by unqualified parent teachers would threaten that.

Perhaps you would consider turning this from a mandatory thing to a document that explains the benefits of home schooling, then encourages and urges nations to allow it. That way you will get your message across, but wouldn't be trampling all over the education systems of other nations by forcing them to accept something they don't want, or in cases like ours don't need. That may go down much better with UN members than what you have now.

I am definately leaning in that direction, Waterana. I didn't realize that there was such diversity of opinion on this issue. Perhaps I will make the resolution simply encourage homeschooling and make the case for parental rights, or something like that.

When I have the time I will commence a major edit of my resolution. Thank you all for your input, I needed this. It's true that people who want their proposals passed should come here first.

Oh, Waterana, I actually submitted a much more moderate draft in the proposals a few weeks ago, but it was deleted because "UN resolutions are not optional." What's up with that, and how can I be fair to all nations without being "optional"?

As for the honorable delegate from Arridia, I must say that our nations, beliefs, culture and society are so radically different that I can now understand your objections to my resolution. I couldn't really comprehend them before, since we are on such different pages.

Norderia, how do you actually submit an issue to a moderator?

I have made some edits to the resolution. Please tell me what you think of it now.

Norderia, how do you actually submit an issue to a moderator?
I'll take this one.

On the page where you see all your pending issues, there should be a link saying "Want to contribute an Issue to NationStates? Do it here!". Click on the link, and submit your issue.

I thoroughly recommend drafting it in the Got Issues Forum prior to submission - very, very few issues are selected without extensive editting, and it's best to get that done before you sibmit rather than relying on overworked mods to do it.

You need a population of at least 500 million to submit an issue. However, it may take that long for the editting and redrafting to get done, so I suggest taking your idea to Got Issues soon, if you intend to try this as an Issue.

I thoroughly recommend drafting it in the Got Issues Forum prior to submission - very, very few issues are selected without extensive editting, and it's best to get that done before you sibmit rather than relying on overworked mods to do it.Quoted for emphasis.

I don't edit issues directly. Occationally, when Siro's stuck, he'll ask other Mods for thoughts and opinions, but, by and large, he does all the work. Reppy and Sal will occationally do an issue, but it's mainly Siro. Please, please, have your issue vetted in the Got Issues? forum. That vast majority of submitted issues are deleted without a second thought. This cannot be overstated. There are times when he'll delete over one hundred issues before finding one that involves hours of editing. Frequently, the end result bears little relation to the original; often the only commonality is the subject matter.

If you want to have a hope in Hell, work it out in the Got Issues? forum. If you think the percentage over here is rough, issues are even harsher.

If you want to have a hope in Hell, work it out in the Got Issues? forum. If you think the percentage over here is rough, issues are even harsher.

Harsh enough that they'll actually edit them to make sure they're perfect

As for the honorable delegate from Arridia, I must say that our nations, beliefs, culture and society are so radically different that I can now understand your objections to my resolution. I couldn't really comprehend them before, since we are on such different pages.


No problem. And if the resolution merely encourages home schooling rather than mandating it, we can accept that. It'll have the positive effect of giving governments an alternative to think about, at least.

Thank you all for your help.

So Arridia, what do you think of the resolution now? I changed a bit last night and asked for some new comments.

No problem. And if the resolution merely encourages home schooling rather than mandating it, we can accept that. It'll have the positive effect of giving governments an alternative to think about, at least.

Technically, Arridia, the resolution never mandated homeschooling. It just gave people the option of doing that.

So Arridia, what do you think of the resolution now? I changed a bit last night and asked for some new comments.


The whole introductory part remains highly debatable, and I'm not entirely happy with the idea of supporting that. But as I said, this resolution won't force us to do anything, and it can be beneficial in the sense of suggesting an interesting idea to governments, so overall it looks ok to me.

I support homeschooling. I think it's a great thing, and can have many benefits for children.
However, I don't think a law like this is within the purview of the UN. National soveriegnty and all that rot...
I will need to be convinced before I support it.

--Rooty

Oh, Waterana, I actually submitted a much more moderate draft in the proposals a few weeks ago, but it was deleted because "UN resolutions are not optional." What's up with that, and how can I be fair to all nations without being "optional"?

You can't make a proposal that UN nations can choose to comply with or not because compliance is (supposed to be, but I'm not getting into that arguement) mandatory, but you can make a proposal that states an idea, lays out the groundwork, and then urges, encourages nations to use that idea in their nations. I'm not explaining this very well, so will point you at a passed resolution that does just that for an example...

IT Education Act (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10042612&postcount=132)

If you want to have a hope in Hell, work it out in the Got Issues? forum. If you think the percentage over here is rough, issues are even harsher.

I should point out at the moment the only threads in the Got Issues forum are stickies. This probably explains why I see the same issue again and again and again. Having the forums almost as an add on to the game and then requiring people to find it and use it dooms us all to manure and merely gives all you mods more work with the delete key.

Well there goes my motivation to write an issue. Thanks Hack.

Well there goes my motivation to write an issue. Thanks Hack.


I've thought about giving it a whirl, but I don't think I've been around long enough to have seen all the issues so that I know I'm not duplicating one, especially since some of them are specific to certain types of governments -- for instance, my theocratic puppet's gotten some very funny ones that would never apply to Cluichstan and, thus, that Cluichstan won't ever see. That's one of the reasons I've created a number of different puppets with a variety of government types. I'm trying to get a look at as many issues as possible before I even consider writing one of my own.

I've thought about giving it a whirl, but I don't think I've been around long enough to have seen all the issues so that I know I'm not duplicating one, especially since some of them are specific to certain types of governments -- for instance, my theocratic puppet's gotten some very funny ones that would never apply to Cluichstan and, thus, that Cluichstan won't ever see. That's one of the reasons I've created a number of different puppets with a variety of government types. I'm trying to get a look at as many issues as possible before I even consider writing one of my own.


There's a spoiler list, IIRC, on the Got Issues? forum

There's a spoiler list, IIRC, on the Got Issues? forum

Oh, okay, thanks, FL. :D I'd just assumed I should have more experience before trying, but I'll look for that.

Great plan allowing home schooling.;) It dosen't completly undermine the education system:P

There's a spoiler list, IIRC, on the Got Issues? forum

Which really isn't much of a "spoiler" since it only shows the issue from the POV of the player. Still a nice collection to check on duplications, but it would be really nice to see a full blown example in a sticky showing some real exmples. Right now it seems as though you have to do something where half of the rules for doing something is classified above your level. It's no wonder the issue editor has more work to do, because most of the meat of the issue writing is technically classified.

For issues, this page (http://www.nationstates.net/pages/submit_issue_guidelines.html) is helpful.

I should point out at the moment the only threads in the Got Issues forum are stickies.Perhaps you should adjust the cut-off age for threads. I see 69 pages of threads in that forum.

Well there goes my motivation to write an issue. Thanks Hack.Yeah, sure. Blame me for everything. This is getting really damn old Tzor. I'm not your fucking whipping boy, and I've had just about enough of your constant back handed comments.

Perhaps you should adjust the cut-off age for threads. I see 69 pages of threads in that forum.

Yeah, sure. Blame me for everything. This is getting really damn old Tzor. I'm not your fucking whipping boy, and I've had just about enough of your constant back handed comments.

Did someone say "whipping boy"? I'll be right there, Master! *puts on his leather hood and ball gag*