NationStates Jolt Archive

CR Oscilloscopes, Sinaasappel and Love and esterel would like to introduce a new draft proposal:
“Intersexed Persons Recognition Act”

Please let us know about every comments, suggestion or critics


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Intersexed Persons Recognition Act

Category: Education and creativity
Area of Effect: Educational

The United Nations

-A- Fully aware that some persons are born with sex chromosomes different from XX or XY, such as XO, XXX, XXY, XYY or a combination of XO and XY

-B- Fully aware that some persons are born with in various degree: male-typical anatomy with XX chromosomes or female-typical anatomy with XY chromosomes, related to sex-determining genes presence/absence/inhibition or male/female hormones presence/absence/inhibition.

-C- Defining an intersex person as someone born physically between the male and female genders with anatomy that is either ambiguous or comprised of varying degrees of both male and female anatomy, as described in paragraph [A] and [B],

-D- Observing and regretting that the taboo on this topic leads many often to an unjustified unfair regard over intersex persons and is what often leads to difficult psychological conditions for them, as from their youth:


-1- Recommends that the existence of intersex persons and the treatment and regards they deserve, as any other human or sapient being, be taught in schools of member nations.

Co-authored by CR Oscilloscopes and Sinaasappel
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No, no, no, no, no, no, NO.

-1- Recommends that the existence of intersex persons and the treatment and regards they deserve, as any other human or sapient being, be taught in schools of member nations.
Don't like it. I'm fine with them being given rights, but in Gruenberg we'd rather pretend they don't exist. I'm in general opposed to meddling in education systems, especially when it's to promote the heresy that Great Mother Wena did not create us all perfectly in her image.

Co-authored by CR Oscilloscopes and Sinaasappel
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Branding.

~Lori Jiffjeff
Legal Aide to the Gruenberger UN Office
Minister of Sandy Vaginas
Chair of "Mothers Against Weird Shit"

Well, that's interesting but ... No!

I mean it all boils down to a vague attempt to add something to add a single concept to the school's cirriculium. What's next? Chimerism? (That is multiple sets of DNA within the same organism ... it's actually more common than people think and it's now proven that fetal DNA remain in the mother for decades after the original embryo implantation in the uterus.) Add to that hormone imbanances and there are more things in heaven and earth than are drempt by a simple DNA philosophy.

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO.

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO.

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO.

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO.
.......

Well, that's interesting but ... No!

Thanks for your comment,

What's next? Chimerism? (That is multiple sets of DNA within the same organism ... it's actually more common than people think and it's now proven that fetal DNA remain in the mother for decades after the original embryo implantation in the uterus.) Add to that hormone imbanances and there are more things in heaven and earth than are drempt by a simple DNA philosophy.

But please forgive me if I'm low to understand today, as I don't get the point of what you said.

Don't like it. I'm fine with them being given rights, but in Gruenberg we'd rather pretend they don't exist. I'm in general opposed to meddling in education systems, especially when it's to promote the heresy that Great Mother Wena did not create us all perfectly in her image.

Just to know more about Gruenberg's culture and pantheon, would you rather pretend disabled persons at birth don't exist, as it may promote the heresy that Great Mother Wena did not create us all perfectly in her image?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5049626.stm


Branding.

You right; but It seems to me that the NSUN jurisprudence accept that;)

I'd vote in favour of this. Good idea.

Just to know more about Gruenberg's culture and pantheon, would you rather pretend disabled persons at birth don't exist, as it may promote the heresy that Great Mother Wena did not create us all perfectly in her image?
Absolutely.

You right; but It seems to me that the NSUN jurisprudence accept that
No bones to me. Submit it, and find out.

Absolutely.

Ok:cool:


No bones to me. Submit it, and find out.
I prefer to follow the rules; but if it's tolerated, it's better for us

Actually, Co-Authored branding is the only allowed form, I believe.

Actually, Co-Authored branding is the only allowed form, I believe.
My point was you can only list one co-author. I asked after Repeal "Mandatory Recycling" passed, and it was confirmed that the rule was still in place.

ooc: I know two hermaphrodites. What's the odds on that?

ic: In Randomea a person is a person is a person. There is gender equality, and I believe that is defended in one of the passed resolutions...*eyes pile of passed resolutions neatly stacked on shelf, decides not to search*...and I don't think it needs to be stated that gender equality is more than male-female.
To teach it? Is it really necessary? Or am I misunderstanding the last clause? It is badly worded.

Basically it is a defining proposal...with no mention of transexuals, that as far as I can tell says 'teach kids that not everyone has XX or XY.'
Give it more substance or abandon altogether.

-1- Recommends that the existence of intersex persons and the treatment and regards they deserve, as any other human or sapient being, be taught in schools of member nations.-----Hell you can't teach children to properly speak one language in schools so how the heck do you expect to teach them all the so called different sexes? We have to first teach them the basics that will allow them to survive in this world and that means to be able to read and understand a language so they can communicate with others no matter how each may differ from the other. Also we have to teach basic respect for others in order to expect to get it for ourselves.

Here you want to teach about different sexes others want to teach about different races and still other want to teach about their own little issue. Our schools are poorly funded and not able to teach those subjects considered important and needed to our children now. Adding issues to be taught requires time from some place and funds to draft up material to be included in the course as well as to pay teachers to teach it. Thus you have to take from some place to fund this or that or balance it all out thus as you add to the things taught you cut time and funds from some place and all in the end lose.

Also what percentage of the worlds polulation does this directly effect as we see this as bringing a small group to light; thus giving reason for others to discriminate againt them more than they may be now. You may ask members how many people in their own family would fall in another odd sex group and most probably can't tell you so then you consider how many people they may work with that do and they know even less. If a person is discriminated against in society it often is not something like this until the issue is shoved down others throats because that group wants something given them. Thus since all people are suppose to be equal then we don't need to single out individual small groups and make them different thus giving grounds for folks to not like them simply because they want more than they are willing to work for. As again if they are not doing well it probably not because of their sexual oriantation but something else so this will not help them just add another reason to hate them.

ooc: I know two hermaphrodites. What's the odds on that?

OOC: Wow, I'd say damn near astronomical.

An interesting schema of the development of genitalia from different stages:

http://www.uhh.hawaii.edu/~ronald/393/Fausto-2.jpg

Stage in Development of male external genitalia (around 12 weeks):
http://www.futura-sciences.com/communiquer/g/showphoto.php/photo/2144/cat/587
http://www.futura-sciences.com/communiquer/g/showphoto.php/photo/2141/cat/587

Is it wise to be posting these images?

Further, is it even relevant?

Is it wise to be posting these images?

Further, is it even relevant?

I was thinking these pictures, and the schema (in post 15) were in the same time: not provocative, and an help to approach what intersexuality can be, as it illustrates how male and female genitalia are close in their development.

Sorry, if these 2 posts fail to achieve their goals, I just tried my best.

Aren't there already anti-discrimination laws in place? Wouldn't those render this fairly unnecessary?

As for the education.... Is that actually necessary? The only people who really need to know about the variant biological, chemical, hormonal, etc, issues would be doctors. One would hope such things would be covered in Med school.

Aren't there already anti-discrimination laws in place? Wouldn't those render this fairly unnecessary?Kind of my thought. Furthermore, I seem to remember this crashing and burning horribly the last time it was tried...

I like the idea, however I think the proposal totally lacks operative clauses. The only one is "recommends recognizing inersex blah-blah". Recommends isn't exactly a command, rendering the entire resolution useless. Howsabout mandating something? Like equal treatment for intersex people, and a commitee to research the genetics behind it etc...?

Kind of my thought. Furthermore, I seem to remember this crashing and burning horribly the last time it was tried...

I think you're recalling the transgender mess. I was reminded of it as well when we read this equally needless proposal, but I should point out that "intersexed" and "transgender" are not the same thing.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

Aren't there already anti-discrimination laws in place?

There are already some anti-discrimination laws passed, you right, but no one of them deal with intersexed people.

I'm really sad once again that amendment are impossible, it would have been far simplier and better.


As for the education.... Is that actually necessary? The only people who really need to know about the variant biological, chemical, hormonal, etc, issues would be doctors. One would hope such things would be covered in Med school.

Most of our nations have a 2 cases male/female classification. We have absolutly nothing against that. But, as there is a continuum between male and femame, and that's it's absolutly not possible to draw a border, our classification of people who are in between is arbitrary and doesn't fit to reality.

This is why we think they need some recognition.


Kind of my thought. Furthermore, I seem to remember this crashing and burning horribly the last time it was tried...

Even if it's related, it's not really the same topic, we are dealing with people with ambiguous anatomy at birth. And also, you right about the former crashing but by a smaller margin than the 1st try of both diplomatic immunity and the dolphin repeal.


I like the idea, however I think the proposal totally lacks operative clauses. The only one is "recommends recognizing inersex blah-blah". Recommends isn't exactly a command, rendering the entire resolution useless. Howsabout mandating something? Like equal treatment for intersex people, and a commitee to research the genetics behind it etc...?

Basically it is a defining proposal...with no mention of transexuals, that as far as I can tell says 'teach kids that not everyone has XX or XY.'
Give it more substance or abandon altogether.

Thanks for your comment. Our policy is that "mild" proposal are not useless. We remember the estimeed Ambassador of Hirota in this same forum few months ago affirming (with better words) that in some case recommandation may have more effects than stick.

Also, we would prefer to avoid a similar debate from the last year transgender one.

Also, we would prefer to avoid a similar debate from the last year transgender one.

As would we all, I'm sure.

There are already some anti-discrimination laws passed, you right, but no one of them deal with intersexed people.

With respect to the representative of Love and Esterel, we suggest a rereading of past resolutions. There are several that enforce freedom from discrimination based on gender. Many of them make a point to refer to multiple possible genders or sexes, not just two.

We believe this legislation to be unnecessary. Is it possible that it would even be illegal, since it largely repeats legislation already on the books?

Yoash Uriel,
Airatum Ambassador to the UN

-1- Recommends that the existence of intersex persons and the treatment and regards they deserve, as any other human or sapient being, be taught in schools of member nations.-----We understand the intent of this proposal but must say we can't support it as it's written. Mainly because we feel this is imposing on the education system of our nation and requiring us to add things to it that we feel are best dealt with in other areas and later in the lives of our children.

Children for the most don't know they are different until parents tell them they are.. Thus the first measure is educating the parents not the children, thus this would not be effective in todays schools since the children still live with their primary teachers, their parents. They also probably attend some religious functions that may not teach these sorts of things in a manner suitable to benifit all concerned. Thus again outside influences beyond the school come into play here that the school has no control over and often ends up getting the blame when things go wrong.

Our lower grade schools only need to teach those subjects that are basic needs not that will move the child to become a rocket scientist or master cloner. Only those things that a child will need to move forward to the next level where they learn special skills that will be used to make them productive citizens. If a child is not given the power to think on their own they will not grow on their own and follow the ways of those before them.. many times giving reason to a failure to respect others because of some differences thought to exist between the two groups.

Respect for others is first taught at home as most children don't start school until age five or six so that time is when they learn to respect or not respect others who might be different from them. Thus the schools have to play catchup already when parents fail to teach them this before they start school, thus time is lost trying to cope with bad mannered children that should have learned some respect for others at home but didn't.

As we see here you want to add teaching this in school at some point and we say okay at the proper point; but here you make it seem we must start the day they walk into schools and teach them everything that first day. Also requiring teachers to take coursed on subjects they don't have a need for is a waste of time and funds. The idea that everyone should know all is just not possible as if it would we would not be here trying to make everyone equal. They would already be just that.

The only solution to this problem is take all children at birth and put them in state run schools that sort them by their mental and physical abilities and then train them to do something in society based on how they test.. or rate. If they are found to be a burden on society simply lose them.. thus keeping only those that meet the standards set by society for people to live in it. Thus they will all come out equal think alike and there will never be any problems..

I think you're recalling the transgender mess. I was reminded of it as well when we read this equally needless proposal, but I should point out that "intersexed" and "transgender" are not the same thing.Really? Huh. I just remember the whole XXY XYY XYZZY or whatever from another Proposal.

Or, I could just be hallucinating.

Frankly, this proposal seems even more useless than the Sex Education one...and here I thought you wouldn't be able to top it, L&E.

Hack, you have a PM on the UNDEFCON forum.

Apart from the education part, I think this is perfectly fine.

I'd replace the education part with something along the lines of:

DETERMINED that Intersexed persons shall enjoy equality in dignity, rights, freedom and opportunities under international and domestic law.

I'd also add something underlining that intersexed people should not be coerced or pressured into surgery intended to make intersexed people to physically conform to cultural definitions of "normal"

I'd also suggest that information on the condition is made freely available. It's not forced on educational systems, but I'd suggest that such information was made publicly and freely available.

Some of this does overlap with other resolutions, but the overlap is implicit, and something needs to be done to ensure that the rights of intersexed individuals are explicitly clear and equal to all other peoples.

As for Gruen's observation on branding - simply create a new nation called x & y (if you can fit the full name) if you need to work around it.

Frankly, this proposal seems even more useless than the Sex Education one...and here I thought you wouldn't be able to top it, L&E.I try not to make judgement calls on utility ;)

Hack, you have a PM on the UNDEFCON forum.So I do! Swanky!

I hate double posting, but editing is hard...

As for Gruen's observation on branding - simply create a new nation called x & y (if you can fit the full name) if you need to work around it.I would really appretiate it if this didn't become common practice.

Really? Huh. I just remember the whole XXY XYY XYZZY or whatever from another Proposal.

Or, I could just be hallucinating.

Meh, could've been before my time. *shrug*

Now watch what you say or they´ll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal

Now watch what you say or they´ll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal

Gah! Supertramp reference! :eek:

OoC: I decided that today my debates would be composed entirely of lyrics from the Logical Song

OoC: I decided that today my debates would be composed entirely of lyrics from the Logical Song

For that you have my complete and utter respect.

To the Proposal at hand.

The subject is of particular interest to me. For some time, I have contemplated this odd (meaning rare, for the political correctness fans out there) occurance. I would like to once again point out that there are certain prejudices and philosophies that have caused these people a great amount of suffering.

Let's consider Casey, a hermaphrodite who was often considered to be male who was coerced into chosing a female childhood. So traumatic it even drove him mad.

Perhaps, if this had been proposed and passed 15 years ago, both Casey and those his madness affected would be living peacefully today. Of course, his actions only lead to hate, fear, and mistrust which the people of Amrotville are only now getting over.

Which is why Amrotville places it's full support behind this proposition.

I'd also add something underlining that intersexed people should not be coerced or pressured into surgery intended to make intersexed people to physically conform to cultural definitions of "normal"


For this addition, I am grateful.

With respect to the representative of Love and Esterel, we suggest a rereading of past resolutions. There are several that enforce freedom from discrimination based on gender.

It doesn't seems to me that this proposal is a duplication of a passed one, but I may be wrong, please may you let me know from which one(s), it's a duplication, thanks.

Many of them make a point to refer to multiple possible genders or sexes, not just two.

This proposal is absolutly not about a third sex, but deal only with the continuum between male and female.

Gah! Supertramp reference! :eek:

Which track?

Ok, indeed:



1. ... These centres must be sensitive and cater to the needs of intersex people.

Which track?

ooc: That would be Logical Song, which is Track 2 on Breakfast in America. It is also featured on every greatest hits album.

This proposal is absolutly not about a third sex, but deal only with the continuum between male and female.Are you saying there are people out there that have no gender... at all..? As today most medical person have assigned some gender name to about every form that might fit between male and female. Thus they all have a gender type. Thus one would be the third sex and others counted in order given.. As I read this you are saying these persons have not been fitted (for lack of better word) into a gender. Thus they are in some sexual limbo and subject to discrimination.

As most laws on discrimination don't single out rights by sexes just persons then maybe we do need to get these persons included in with the rest of the persons those laws protect. As you seem to say they are outside persons in a class or type by themselves. Thus you are making them different and subject to be discriminated against. I will note that voting laws once were gender based but would believe that today that has changed in most nations..

Most laws do protect persons from being discriminated against because of their gender or sex... So do these persons have a sex or not have one? If they are non-sexual but persons then others discrimination laws apply to them just like they would to sexual persons. The key being they are all persons.... so there are already laws that protect them as persons..... thus this is an effort to duplicate those for them based on their gender or lack of a gender thus is not needed. They have those protections as persons already...

OOC: It's 6:30 AM here I need to go to bed....

The wise and armed Kamchuckites believe that those with such differences simply do not deserve life. Why ruin a perfectly fair society of hate.

The wise and armed Kamchuckites believe that those with such differences simply do not deserve life. Why ruin a perfectly fair society of hate.

Great first post. Here, have a puppy. In your second post, you can strangle it.

Let's consider Casey, a hermaphrodite who was often considered to be male who was coerced into chosing a female childhood. So traumatic it even drove him mad.

Perhaps, if this had been proposed and passed 15 years ago, both Casey and those his madness affected would be living peacefully today. Of course, his actions only lead to hate, fear, and mistrust which the people of Amrotville are only now getting over.


Wasn't it an accidental demasculinisation?

I would really appretiate it if this didn't become common practice.I'll avoid suggesting it in the future :)

This proposal is absolutly not about a third sex

Yes it is. Quit the doublespeak. You mentioned something besides XY and XX which would therefore be neither male nor female.

Yes it is. Quit the doublespeak. You mentioned something besides XY and XX which would therefore be neither male nor female.Don't misquote.

Requoted for correct context. Emphasis my own.
This proposal is absolutly not about a third sex, but deal only with the continuum between male and female.

This proposal is absolutly not about a third sex, but deal only with the continuum between male and female.

...unlike all the other resolutions on the subject you've tried to pass in the past?

...unlike all the other resolutions on the subject you've tried to pass in the past?
Which others did he try to pass in the past?

I think they where joking

...unlike all the other resolutions on the subject you've tried to pass in the past?You're confusing L&E with Agnostic Deeishpeople. :rolleyes:

but deal only with the continuum between male and female.

Fine, but it's still a third sex if it's neither XX nor XY.

Continuum - "A continuous extent, succession, or whole, no part of which can be distinguished from neighboring parts except by arbitrary division."

If it's not XX or XY, it can be distinguished from XX and XY and is not a continuous extent.

Fine, but it's still a third sex if it's neither XX nor XY.

Continuum - "A continuous extent, succession, or whole, no part of which can be distinguished from neighboring parts except by arbitrary division."

If it's not XX or XY, it can be distinguished from XX and XY and is not a continuous extent.I'm guessing you are no more qualified than me in this field :)

So, I google'd. And I found this.

www.buddybuddy.com/beeman-1.html

It's a website endorsing gay and lesbian couples, but the article is interesting. IN summary, it claims between 3 and 10 million Americans are neither 100% male or 100% female at birth. Some have one chromosone, others have multiple (and is possible to divide these up in groups, see previous posts about a previous debate). Moreover we have cultural gender, if a man is genetically female, is he a she? Female athletes have underwent testing and been discovered they are genetically male.

You have all these different variations, and then you start to realise it is not black and white. It is simply that society has divided into male and female.