NationStates Jolt Archive

Would anyone object to a ban on, basically, time travel? That is, any global violation of causality via faster-than-light or effectively faster-than-light transmission of matter or information. Grandfather bombs, acausal logic, travel along closed timelike curves, etc. Most especially the use of causal violation as a weapon or to edit history.

This kind of technology is very possible; entangled particle pairs can transmit information instantaneously, and superluminal travel (suggested to be possible via certain theoretical methods) and travel in a major gravity well like a black hole's can follow paths called closed timelike curves that allow the object to travel into the absolute past.

The problem with this is obvious; the resulting paradoxes, causal violations, and runaway history destabilization could tear reality apart at the temporal seams unless used with only the most incredible responsibility and caution, something that isn't likely to happen.

Good luck on this one. Sounds like a legislative nightmare. I wouldn't object to it but I'm not sure I'd consider it NSUN concern number one.

OOC: Does this mean my country has to hire Jean-Claude Van Damme? ;)

I think the problem you'll get is "there's no such thing as time travel".

It's mainly a weapons convention, like the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, except even more important. Nuke=1 city goes boom. Causal weaponry=the human species goes missing in a crack in time.

I think the problem you'll get is "there's no such thing as time travel".

But....there is. It doesn't exist/occur in the real world, not yet, but NS!=RL, and it's certainly possible in RL's future. My nation, for example, is well ahead of RL's worldline. We could conceivably build these weapons, and knowing their dangers are campaigning against their construction and use.

But....there is. It doesn't exist/occur in the real world, not yet, but NS!=RL, and it's certainly possible in RL's future. My nation, for example, is well ahead of RL's worldline. We could conceivably build these weapons, and knowing their dangers are campaigning against their construction and use.
I agree with you that time travel is possible. I think the concern Gruen brought forth is a legitimate one though as many people do not have familiarity with the physics behind it. I'm just not sure you're going to be able to drum up enough concern on the issue. You're welcome to try though.

But....there is. It doesn't exist/occur in the real world, not yet, but NS!=RL, and it's certainly possible in RL's future. My nation, for example, is well ahead of RL's worldline. We could conceivably build these weapons, and knowing their dangers are campaigning against their construction and use.
And there is the problem. My nation is not well ahead of RL's worldline. We could not conceivably build these weapons.

I'm not saying I'd vote against for these reasons, but many many people would. See "Rights of Biological Sapients", for example.

But you'd vote for it so that nations like mine would be prevented from engaging in activities that could edit your country out of existence whether you understand the activities or not...

I agree with you that time travel is possible.

'Tis possible and in practice here in Jey as a tourism industry. Thus, opposed.

For sure time travel is possible. Why, I do it every day.

If you mean travelling back in time, it is a trickier subject. You believe it is possible; it is your right. But please don't hide behind pseudo-science. There is absolutely no scientific evidence for the possibility of time travel, and it is excluded by currently accepted theory.

But you'd vote for it so that nations like mine would be prevented from engaging in activities that could edit your country out of existence whether you understand the activities or not...

Or..you could be on the beneficial end of such activity. :p

But you'd vote for it so that nations like mine would be prevented from engaging in activities that could edit your country out of existence whether you understand the activities or not...
Yes, Gruenberg would.

10,000 UN voters would squeal "omg there's no such thing as time travel stop wasting our time!!!"

Seriously, good luck: you will need it.

The problem I see is that it only impacts a very small portion of NS. My own country is still trying to get indoor plumbing to the masses. Time Travel isn't even on the radar. Even most FT nations don't have it.

Bah, time travel would have no effect on our society. If you went back in time, the very fact you went back in time would change the future, but only the future of the peron who went back in time. Our future would still exist.

Think about it

Time stream A -------------1950----------------------------------2006-------->
Time stream B -------------1950----------------------------------2006-------->

Anyway, if your in 2006, and you travel back to 1950 and, say, kill Nixon. Then travel back o 2006, your 2006 will be different. However, ours will not have changed. By changing the past you do not erase our future, you simply enter yourself into a new one, changing from time stream A, to time stream B. Heck, the very fact you went back in time would alter the time stream you returned too. There are trillions of trillions of these time streams running beside each other, one for each tiny different choice. Changing things simply switches the time-traveller from one time stream to another.

Basically, sending a nuke back in time would have no discernable effect whatsoever.

For sure time travel is possible. Why, I do it every day.

If you mean travelling back in time, it is a trickier subject. You believe it is possible; it is your right. But please don't hide behind pseudo-science. There is absolutely no scientific evidence for the possibility of time travel, and it is excluded by currently accepted theory.
I know a guy in astrophysics who would have a bone to pick with you on that one ;)

But it's besides the point and not worth arguing.

The way I see it's still valid as a preventative measure as a what if. Plus it may (and apparently does according to Jey) exist in the NS universe at any rate.

But then as I said, it's probably not of enough interest to the whole of the NSUN to bother with.

I know a guy in astrophysics who would have a bone to pick with you on that one

OOC: Oh come one, tell me it doesn't make sense. Ok, I know time travel might not even exist, but to be fair, if it did exist that the only way it could without being full of paradoxs. (thats why Skynet keeps sending Terminators to kill Linda Hamilton and co... because its not seeing the results).

OOC: Oh come one, tell me it doesn't make sense. Ok, I know time travel might not even exist, but to be fair, if it did exist that the only way it could without being full of paradoxs. (thats why Skynet keeps sending Terminators to kill Linda Hamilton and co... because its not seeing the results).
Er I wasn't commenting on your point...

If your friend intends to claim that time travel "is certainly possible in RL's future," then by all means bring him on.

Back in NS world, if you are allowed to RP time travel, I am allowed to RP that our scientists proved it impossible. Bringing us back to square one, unless we base our legislation on more realistic issues.

Back in NS world, if you are allowed to RP time travel, I am allowed to RP that our scientists proved it impossible. Bringing us back to square one, unless we base our legislation on more realistic issues.
Indeed. Which is why I brought it back to a what if/preventative issue. That's the only real way I think it could be handled here.

For sure time travel is possible. Why, I do it every day.

If you mean travelling back in time, it is a trickier subject. You believe it is possible; it is your right. But please don't hide behind pseudo-science. There is absolutely no scientific evidence for the possibility of time travel, and it is excluded by currently accepted theory.

And you base that assertion on what, exactly? There's no "currently accepted theory" that excludes time travel; nothing excludes it. Have you ever heard of the field equations of general relativity? Are you aware that effective travel along a closed timelike loop, a possible solution to those equations, would deposit you in the absolute past? Do you know what quantum entanglement is? What about quantum wormholes and the Casimir effect? The possibility of setting up longitudinal compression waves in spacetime via gravity manipulation?

Don't make dumb comments about topics you know nothing about.

The Palentine wishes the proposal author luck. We will probally abstain, as Time travel is not a big concern of our Mad Scientis...err...Science Advisors right now. Currently they are still working the bugs out of the Teleportation/De-materializing Device, they created about a year ago. Making the subject vanish seems to be no problem. However the calibration seems to be off, as there has been problems on rematerializing the subject. Perhaps the subject teleported, or maybe even travelled in time. In an infinite universe anything is possible, I suppose. Also there seems to be a problem with getting test subjects for the device. The state allocates some criminals for that purpose(kind of a "Dirty Dozen" Pardon scheme.). The problem is that the scientists go through the subjects faster than they can be allocated. Dr. Bent Cranium(head of the Palentine Research Department) has assured my Emperor,Captain Spaulding I, that the bugs should be worked out soon.

There is absolutely no scientific evidence for the possibility of time travel, and it is excluded by currently accepted theory.Actually (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050716/fob7.asp)...

Would Dr Who become an international criminal under this law?

He'd be pretty difficult to catch with all the different appearances.

What happens if in order to enter and exit the nation you have to travel through one of several space-time vorteces?

(Basically, am I fucked?)

Have you ever heard of the field equations of general relativity? Are you aware that effective travel along a closed timelike loop, a possible solution to those equations, would deposit you in the absolute past? Do you know what quantum entanglement is? What about quantum wormholes and the Casimir effect? The possibility of setting up longitudinal compression waves in spacetime via gravity manipulation?

Don't make dumb comments about topics you know nothing about.
I'm failing to see how simply naming parts of relativity theory constitutes anything more substantive than the Fonzolander's comments.

OOC: This is a problem with free-form RP. We are not forced to recognise FT nations, so we should we be forced to recognise their technology.

Rather than address something as specific and divisive as this, how about an airy 'thou shalt not exploit questionable physics for thine own gain at the the expense of yon poor M/PT mites, nay, nor for big weapons, thou scurvy dog'?

I think the problem you'll get is "there's no such thing as time travel".

There's no such thing as time travel. :p

Somebody had to do it.

Gentlebeings, the nation of Ardchoille has invited Mr Neville NotThatOne Chamberlain, Barlord of the Strangers' Bar in the UN Building, to give expert testimony on the suitability of this subject for UN legislation:

"Thank you, Dicey -- I beg your pardon, Co-President Riley. I wish to point out that a ban on Global Causality Violations would necessarily lead to the immediate closure of the Strangers' Bar on Occupational Health and Safety grounds, in the interests of the sanity of the staff and clientele.

Undiplomatic Incidents would assuredly rise, owing to our inability to reverse certain outcomes, and an era of unprecedented dysfunctionality would descend on the world body.

Furthermore, the Bar would no longer be able to cater to delegates from all UN nations, many of whom employ forms of GCV to arrive, survive and contrive at the UN.

This would put us in breach of the terms under which the UN Building Management authorises our operation. Our forced closure would, of course, lead to the regrettable obligation to seek immediate payment of all outstanding personal and national accounts."

Thank you, Neville -- er, Mr Chamberlain. Of course I am not suggesting that the deliberations of the august body charged with the grave responsibility of facilitating international relations should be influenced by minor personal considerations, such as whether delegates are able to relax a bit after work.

However, I felt it would be remiss of me not to bring this point to your attention.

-- Dicey Riley, Co-President of Ardchoille.

At least in _Myopia_'s timeline, there is still debate concerning the nature and possibility of time travel. We cannot be sure of the potential impacts, so to outright ban it when physicists elsewhere might be in the process of demonstrating it to be harmless (e.g. with the crossing-to-parallel-timelines explanation) seems wrong.

I know a guy in astrophysics who would have a bone to pick with you on that one ;)

Your friend in astrophysics probably watches too much Star Trek.

--Rooty

Your friend in astrophysics probably watches too much Star Trek.

--Rooty
Quit trolling.

Quit trolling.

Uh, I'm not and I don't appreciate the accusation.
Whoever it was in this thread that earlier said that time travel is not an accepted theory was correct. You aren't going to find it in any journals.
Star Trek physics and real physics are not the same.

--Rooty

Uh, I'm not and I don't appreciate the accusation.
Whoever it was in this thread that earlier said that time travel is not an accepted theory was correct. You aren't going to find it in any journals.
Star Trek physics and real physics are not the same.

--Rooty
Your comment was snippy. 'har har he must watch too much star trek'. Proven theory to the level required no. Evidence yes. Debate within the scientific community yes. Dismissing something as non-existent because it is not accepted by the whole at this time seems a wee bit premature is all I was saying. Hack's article is a rather perfect example.

Your comment was snippy. 'har har he must watch too much star trek'.

Grow some thicker skin.
Trolling is actively looking for a fight online, which I wasn't.
If you honestly think that time travel is anything near acceptable science, than maybe you could grab an article or two to back it up instead of going with a "my friend said" style argument.

--Rooty

Grow some thicker skin.
Trolling is actively looking for a fight online, which I wasn't.
If you honestly think that time travel is anything near acceptable science, than maybe you could grab an article or two to back it up instead of going with a "my friend said" style argument.

--Rooty
I wasn't arguing it. No one is going to prove or disprove time travel in this discussion. As I said it's not worth arguing as I think this sort of legislation should be approached as a what if/preventative for the purposes of the NS universe, if it is approached at all.

As for growing thicker skin. My skin is just fine thank you. I would suggest a course in diplomacy however. Condescension will win you no arguements nor friends.

As for growing thicker skin. My skin is just fine thank you. I would suggest a course in diplomacy however. Condescension will win you no arguements nor friends.

I doubt your toughness, since not only are you still running with this, you assumed I was being condescending.

--Rooty

Well pardon me for needing to reply to your rude comment. Oh well. You doubting my 'toughness' is not exactly a great concern and you're running with that as well. So lets just both bring this to a conclusion yes?

Well pardon me for needing to reply to your rude comment. Oh well. You doubting my 'toughness' is not exactly a great concern and you're running with that as well. So lets just both bring this to a conclusion yes?

I love how you have to tell me that you want "us" to stop, instead of just stopping. Desperate for the last word, are we?
Conclusion: I still think your friend watches too much Star Trek.

But about the proposal, to be honest I am not sure that it is a good idea to come up with proposals that limit a nation's scientific research. Since we can't change past events to influence the current shape of nations (which is the theoretical problem with time travel), what could any legislation regarding it possibly acheive?
I think we should focus on more pressing problems, like the overwhelming number of redundant or poorly written resolutions.

--Rooty

I love how you have to tell me that you want "us" to stop, instead of just stopping. Desperate for the last word, are we?
Just showing you're doing the same bit and trying to bring it to an understanding/conclusion. So yes. Final post. You may have the last word if that is your wish. Conclusion: I still think you're being an ass ;)

Grow some thicker skin.
Trolling is actively looking for a fight online, which I wasn't.
If you honestly think that time travel is anything near acceptable science, than maybe you could grab an article or two to back it up instead of going with a "my friend said" style argument.

--Rooty

OOC:
Check Einstein's works on Relativity ragarding light speed or near light speed travels and the potentials for such things as it regards the passage of time in reference to the traveller. You might also consider looking into some of Stephen Hawkings writings. Brief History of Time is a good place to start, though there are many of his essays which deal with the matter. Of course, as a good starting point, you could do as was originally suggested, follow the link supplied by Hack, read the article regarding the possibilities of time travel and the research currently being done in that area, and then realize that accepted scientists are doing accepted work in this accepted area of study.
/OOC

IC:
It could be argued that as you obviously did not read the entire debate and simply sputtered out something that you hoped would be witty and incisive (failing at both), that you were hoping for some sort of fight or flight response. In short, it looked like you were picking a fight, and not only that, you have continued along that vein with a fight. Not a debate, you're not exchanging information, you're fighting. Go hijack a thread that's closer to your maturity level, troll. Altenatively, stop acting like a troll and that label will be gleefully removed as we can continue in a constructive discourse.

This is not an issue relevent to current scientific knowledge and capabilities. It is not worth the UN's time.

This is not an issue relevent to current scientific knowledge and capabilities. It is not worth the UN's time.
Remember that there are UN nations of all different time periods, with all different scientific knowledge and capabilities.

That said, I pretty much agree with you.

If you honestly think that time travel is anything near acceptable science, than maybe you could grab an articleYou mean like this one (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050716/fob7.asp)? Or do physicists at the Technion Israel Institute of Technology "watch too much Star Trek" too?

Philosophical discourse from those noted Star Trek fans at Stanford (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time-machine/#Conc)

And nobody likes Star Trek like those geeks at Nova (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/)

A take on time travel using Abbott's Flatland, which was clearly just another Star Trek fanfic (http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/patricia/lctoc.html)

Divided into way too many pages, but here we see the classic black hole-into-a-time-machine method (http://www.howstuffworks.com/time-travel.htm)

And I find myself wondering why I'm doing your research for you. Perhaps if you'd come down off that high horse and realise that maybe, just maybe, bleeding edge science has changed since you last looked, all this wouldn't be necessary.

Or, you could continue to be a pompus ass. That seems to be working for you.

As for the proposal itself, we don't much care if it passes. We figure it'll give us all the time in the world to change the laws. As long as we do it before the Universe ends, y'all won't know the difference. Heh.

- Extratemporal Gnome
"Wait... where am I?"

a ban on time travel!?! not going to happen!! that would take forums, chat rooms, im, telephones, email, basically EVERYTHING we us on a daily basis, and throw it out the window! they travel as fast, if not faster than light!

Uh... right, then...

a ban on time travel!?! not going to happen!! that would take forums, chat rooms, im, telephones, email, basically EVERYTHING we us on a daily basis, and throw it out the window! they travel as fast, if not faster than light!


They don't arrive before you send it. Near instantaneously, granted, but not before. Please think before you respond.

They don't arrive before you send it. Near instantaneously, granted, but not before. Please think before you respond.

But, I often get email dated several hours in the future. Obviously, it had to travel through time to get here before it was sent. :p

But, I often get email dated several hours in the future. Obviously, it had to travel through time to get here before it was sent. :p


Just means someones clock was off or they are in a different time zone. Get over it.

Come now, Kivisto. 'Twas a harmless aside.

Anyway, the Gnomes are right.