NationStates Jolt Archive

Social Agreement about Youth

A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.


Category: Social Justice


Strength: Significant


Proposed by: Temisas

Description: Description: A resolution to regulate salaries in all nation members.

All Governements know that young people have difficulty finding a house or getting their first job, and when it happens the conditions are very negative for

them. So that the economic viability of young people is unstable and very hard.

The purposes of our societies should be to create an ideal environment for making a culture and intelectual engine related with social movements.

Considering that youth is more qualifying each day, we have an opportunity for dedicate our effort in getting a better social integration.

The UN:

1. ADVISES member nations the creation of an Office for International Convergence (OIC), where nation members will regulate the salaries.

2. ENCOURAGES member nations to create public organisations, or to stimulate the creation of new employments, capable of performing responsibly for reaching

this objetives.

3. DEFINE a new list of jobs and/or professions.

4. Establish, publish, and regularly update a list of new technologies and new economical markets.

5. ENCOURAGES and Intensifying that young people become an universitary student as soon as possible.

6. COMPARE and doing similar salaries in all nation members.

I like this proposal :D Let's vote for it!

First, welcome to the UN forum. I'm not sure Gruenberg would support this proposal in its present form, but it is an interesting - and, crucially, new - idea.

Our main concern is that this is something that is best left to individual nations, as they will all have different structures when it comes to these sort of situations. However, something to do with finding jobs or higher education places overseas might be a good idea. I'm less sold on the idea of a universal wage, though.

So perhaps the proposal could be more focussed on the international jobs market? It could promote exchange programs as well.

Hi, maybe your option is the correct, but i think that if UN nations walk together toward Free Trade, it'll be logical take any agreement in subjects as employment, youth, ... We should try that products were similars, with competitive prices in our economical regions, so it won't be just for anyone.

We don't buy the thing about salary regulation. Salaries should be regulated by the market, not the government.

And we don't really understand clauses 2 - 6. But some of them look promising. We pretty much agree with Gruenberg.

We don't buy the thing about salary regulation. Salaries should be regulated by the market, not the government.

And we don't really understand clauses 2 - 6. But some of them look promising. We pretty much agree with Gruenberg.

What about the minimum wage?

May the blessings of our otters be upon you.

Leonard Otterby
Ambassador for the Republic of Compadria to the U.N.

What about the minimum wage?

May the blessings of our otters be upon you.

Leonard Otterby
Ambassador for the Republic of Compadria to the U.N.
On the other hand, I think I misinterpreted "regulate", thinking it meant "decide". If it were to include simply having a minimum wage, my first line no longer stands.

EDIT: changed sentence to line

2, 3, 4 and 5 could possibly be reworked seperately into a fairly decent resolution. 1 and 6 are too complex of an issue to possibly be done so simply or coupled together with so many other features.

If you think to the real world, the concept of having to pay Mexican workers the same amount as American workers doing the exact same job is ludicrous. Quite simply, the economy isn't there and then you're making the Mexican workers effective millionaires within their own countries. As such, standardizing nations to pay the same amount for the same job is just impossible. By the same token, you'll find that many urban environments have a much higher cost of living relative to the rural environments for the same amount of comfort. As such, I couldn't support any proposal with 1 and 6 being written the way it is.

Centralised wage determination is essentially an ideological ban. Minimum wages are not, but I believe such laws should be specific to countries, not UN regulated. It is a much too complicated issue to be determined centrally. I believe this proposal should be directed to eliminating labour market frictions, as Gruen said.

If you think to the real world, the concept of having to pay Mexican workers the same amount as American workers doing the exact same job is ludicrous. Quite simply, the economy isn't there and then you're making the Mexican workers effective millionaires within their own countries. As such, standardizing nations to pay the same amount for the same job is just impossible. By the same token, you'll find that many urban environments have a much higher cost of living relative to the rural environments for the same amount of comfort. As such, I couldn't support any proposal with 1 and 6 being written the way it is.
A minimum wage proposal could be written based on some basic units (food, accommodation, and so on), and then adjusted by CPI. The IFTA definition of a living wage, for example, isn't referenced in World Dollars, but is based on "adding the mean cost of food for the worker and one dependant, housing for the worker and one dependant, electricity, water, local telecommunications, schooling for a dependant and +30% discretionary spending".

I'd still vote against it, though.

A minimum wage proposal could be written based on some basic units (food, accommodation, and so on), and then adjusted by CPI. The IFTA definition of a living wage, for example, isn't referenced in World Dollars, but is based on "adding the mean cost of food for the worker and one dependant, housing for the worker and one dependant, electricity, water, local telecommunications, schooling for a dependant and +30% discretionary spending".

I'd still vote against it, though.

Or percentage of GDP per capita, or .....

Centralised wage determination is essentially an ideological ban. Minimum wages are not, but I believe such laws should be specific to countries, not UN regulated. It is a much too complicated issue to be determined centrally. I believe this proposal should be directed to eliminating labour market frictions, as Gruen said.

I agree, this sounds like something that should be dealt with on a domestic law/government program basis.

A minimum wage proposal could be written based on some basic units (food, accommodation, and so on), and then adjusted by CPI. The IFTA definition of a living wage, for example, isn't referenced in World Dollars, but is based on "adding the mean cost of food for the worker and one dependant, housing for the worker and one dependant, electricity, water, local telecommunications, schooling for a dependant and +30% discretionary spending".
My, that sounds like a very good definition. Perhaps someone should take it to the UN.

Mathieu Vergniaud
Deputy Speaker to the UN

Or percentage of GDP per capita, or .....
Not really, because there's no way of saying what GDP per capita means in real terms. It doesn't account for inflation.

Not really, because there's no way of saying what GDP per capita means in real terms. It doesn't account for inflation.

Uh? GDP per capita is nominal, but so are wages. And anyway, real GDP can be computed (using a GDP deflator).

*loud booing noises from the Ecopoeian delegation at the mention of GDP*

A minimum wage proposal could be written based on some basic units (food, accommodation, and so on), and then adjusted by CPI. The IFTA definition of a living wage, for example, isn't referenced in World Dollars, but is based on "adding the mean cost of food for the worker and one dependant, housing for the worker and one dependant, electricity, water, local telecommunications, schooling for a dependant and +30% discretionary spending".

I'd still vote against it, though.

I think it's a excellent definition, but I'd avoid defining dependants, as some nations have extended families incorporated as part of the core family group as well as varying numbers of other dependants, which makes setting the number of dependants at one a little problematic in our view. Equally, I'd add on heating costs and + 40% discretionary spending, just to further ease the comfort of the citizens affected.

May the blessings of our otters be upon you.

Leonard Otterby
Ambassador for the Republic of Compadria to the U.N.

Uh? GDP per capita is nominal, but so are wages. And anyway, real GDP can be computed (using a GDP deflator).
OOC: Bah.

IC: I still don't think GDP per capita is an especially helpful measure for calculating a minimum wage, especially without taking into account things like income inequality and distribution.

I think it's a excellent definition, but I'd avoid defining dependants, as some nations have extended families incorporated as part of the core family group as well as varying numbers of other dependants, which makes setting the number of dependants at one a little problematic in our view. Equally, I'd add on heating costs and + 40% discretionary spending, just to further ease the comfort of the citizens affected.
Otterby, I'm not proposing this. I was quoting an example. Gruenberg is vehemently opposed to any minimum wage legislation. We pay our workers in beans and beatings, and they'll like it, damn them!

A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.

INCREASE BASIC WELFARE... why not get rid of WELFARE program and put people to work so they can earn an INCOME..? as INCOME earners are the ones pay for those on WELFARE. Thus to INCEASE WELFARE means INCOME earners must make more to pay for this... while the WELFARE folks drain the system and do nothing to help society...

A resolution to regulate salaries in all nation members.
1. ADVISES member nations the creation of an Office for International Convergence (OIC), where nation members will regulate the salaries..

We already do this so why do we need the UN to come and do it. As we have a national government that sets standards for our citizens and expect them to meet them thus earn their rights to a healhy life. Those that WON'T meet these standards are not citizens thus have no rights to claim welfare. Those that make every effort to meet the standards but for reason fail parts of them are helped but still have to do something to earn what they might get. As we don't give FREE anything,, you earn it here or you don't get it.


3. DEFINE a new list of jobs and/or professions..

Why do we need to define a list of jobs or professions; when if a person don't already know what these are then they probably don't want to earn an INCOME just go on WELFARE?

5. ENCOURAGES and Intensifying that young people become an universitary student as soon as possible.

Why do they need to go to some universitary? What do you send them there to learn? We have a National Service that all must finish before becoming full citizens of our nation with any titles and honor due them based on how they do in such and what profession they enter. Failure to finish National Service means they are not cosidered full citizens and can't claim certain rights, titles, honors, or even work; since they are not citizens of our nation..

I think it's a excellent definition, but I'd avoid defining dependants, as some nations have extended families incorporated as part of the core family group as well as varying numbers of other dependants, which makes setting the number of dependants at one a little problematic in our view. Equally, I'd add on heating costs and + 40% discretionary spending, just to further ease the comfort of the citizens affected.

May the blessings of our otters be upon you.

Leonard Otterby
Ambassador for the Republic of Compadria to the U.N.
OOC: Compadria, if you'd like to find out more about the joy of IFTA, please TG me (via NS or UNOG) - I can send you a link to the full document and forums.

OOC: Bah.

IC: I still don't think GDP per capita is an especially helpful measure for calculating a minimum wage, especially without taking into account things like income inequality and distribution.

It is a method. Certainly, a method with faults, but a method nonetheless. Without question, it is a method much easier to define than a living wage in a manner that had fewer loopholes. Percentage of GDP is a pretty damn hard definition to get around.

Regarding the possibility of a minimum wage law, the government of St Edmund repeats its question (OOC: from an earlier thread about that theme) as to whether this would set the same minimum for a person who's only working part-time in the cash economy -- and who gets most of their actual subsistence requirements from a family-worked farm -- as it would for somebody who depended entirely on a full-time job in the cash economy for their livelihood?

and who gets most of their actual subsistence requirements from a family-worked farm -- as it would for somebody who depended entirely on a full-time job in the cash economy for their livelihood?

A minimum wage law is irrelevant to a family owned farm. They are the employers, not the employees. You would start wondering about the minimum wage for a CEO, so why are you discussing it about a family farm?

Regarding the possibility of a minimum wage law, the government of St Edmund repeats its question (OOC: from an earlier thread about that theme) as to whether this would set the same minimum for a person who's only working part-time in the cash economy -- and who gets most of their actual subsistence requirements from a family-worked farm -- as it would for somebody who depended entirely on a full-time job in the cash economy for their livelihood?
I'm not sure of the farmer-specific nature of your question, but I would imagine that more generally the answer would be no - part-time workers would be guaranteed a pro rata payment. Of course, some nations will take a different view for a variety of reasons (encouraging procreation, etc) but this needn't be mandated across the board.

Of course, someone intending to draft a minimum wage proposal may take a different view.

MV

A minimum wage law is irrelevant to a family owned farm. They are the employers, not the employees. You would start wondering about the minimum wage for a CEO, so why are you discussing it about a family farm?

Hypothetical example: Billybob spends 40 hours a week working in a factory for the 'Hack' sports-shoes business, and depends on his paycheck from that job for supporting himself & his dependents. BobbyBill & his dependents gain most of their subsistence requirements from a family-owned farm that they themselves work, but Bobbybill also works 10 hours a week for 'Hack' in order to obtain some extra spending money. Would this law require 'Hack' to give Bobbybill the same total wage that Billybob would receive, or only a quarter of that amount?

Hypothetical example: Billybob spends 40 hours a week working in a factory for the 'Hack' sports-shoes business, and depends on his paycheck from that job for supporting himself & his dependents. BobbyBill & his dependents gain most of their subsistence requirements from a family-owned farm that they themselves work, but Bobbybill also works 10 hours a week for 'Hack' in order to obtain some extra spending money. Would this law require 'Hack' to give Bobbybill the same total wage that Billybob would receive, or only a quarter of that amount?

So it would be no different of a complaint than the Part-time one, regardless of farming situation or not.

It is a method. Certainly, a method with faults, but a method nonetheless. Without question, it is a method much easier to define than a living wage in a manner that had fewer loopholes. Percentage of GDP is a pretty damn hard definition to get around.

OOC:
GDP doesn't take into account the "informal sector," The informal sector can represent around a quarter of GDP in some RL 'first world' countries, and much more in the rest of the world. Don't get me started on population census data... Easy to define, sure. Hard to get around? Don't think so.

So it would be no different of a complaint than the Part-time one, regardless of farming situation or not.

Except that with the farm taken into account Bobbybill doesn't actually need as much income from the paid job in order to reach subsistence level as somebody else who could only find part-time rather than full-time employment in the cash economy -- and who didn't have such a farm -- would require...

OOC:
GDP doesn't take into account the "informal sector," The informal sector can represent around a quarter of GDP in some RL 'first world' countries, and much more in the rest of the world. Don't get me started on population census data... Easy to define, sure. Hard to get around? Don't think so.There are ways and means of estimating the scale of the informal sector.

OOC: although you are exaggerating the scale of the informal sector. The world bank estimates the size of the informal labor market to vary from an estimated 4-6% in the high-income countries to over 50% in the low-income countries.

There are ways and means of estimating the scale of the informal sector.

As is implied by my statement of a percentage, right? Those methods are not part of national accounting, highly subjective and method dependant, and most of all, clearly not loophole-proof.

OOC: although you are exaggerating the scale of the informal sector. The world bank estimates the size of the informal labor market to vary from an estimated 4-6% in the high-income countries to over 50% in the low-income countries.

Nope, I am not. I said some RL 'first world' countries are at 25%, which does not contradict the world bank in any way. I was thinking of southern European countries, but I dug up some numbers for ya. (http://www.sbs.gov.uk/SBS_Gov_files/sbc/SBC-Informal-Economy-EvBase.pdf) (Table 1, page 15)

I imagine the variations of estimation are the perfect example of how difficult it is to determine a level.

Here, have the link I used to look into it: here (http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/eca/eca.nsf/Sectors/ECSPE/2E4EDE543787A0C085256A940073F4E4?OpenDocument)

This resolution is too complicated and full of holes. The description on how you create an international minimum wage are ludicrous. The idea of matching currency is at best problematic. Part of my currency is attached to time, others currencies may be big blocks of stone for all I know. Exchanging them through an international system would be hard enough to do. There is no international currency exchange. I think the way this is written is at best inadequate. They may sound like good ideas but they are not written to be universally applied.

I think part of the problem with this is the amount of grammatical mistakes, which make this confusing. For example:

So that the economic viability of young people is unstable and very hard.Sentence fragment. Do you really want "viability"?

The purposes of our societies should be to create an ideal environment for making a culture and intelectual engine related with social movements."Intellectual engine"? What does this mean, and why is making it the purpose of society?

Considering that youth is more qualifying each day, we have an opportunity for dedicate our effort in getting a better social integration.Do you mean "more qualified"? And better social integration of youth has always come as they've grown up.

1. ADVISES member nations the creation of an Office for International Convergence (OIC), where nation members will regulate the salaries.Advises them of the creation of the OIC, or advises them to create it? If the first, it would just be better to say "CREATES the Office...". Also, do you mean "member nations" or "the nation's members"

2. ENCOURAGES member nations to create public organisations, or to stimulate the creation of new employments, capable of performing responsibly for reaching this objetives.What objectives? And "performing responsibility for" doesn't make any sense.

3. DEFINE a new list of jobs and/or professions.What defines this? The OIC? If so, this should be a subclause of 1.

4. Establish, publish, and regularly update a list of new technologies and new economical markets.As above. Though a good endeavour.

5. ENCOURAGES and Intensifying that young people become an universitary student as soon as possible."Intensifying"? Also, this is not always economically viable... someone has to work the low skilled jobs, and not all young people need to go to university. This also ignores colleges, technical schools, and other educational facilities.

6. COMPARE and doing similar salaries in all nation members. Sorry, this is gibberish.

I just can't figure out what you are trying to do here.