NationStates Jolt Archive

In this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=473720), some discussion was raised on the nature of the current debate in the UN forum. Since I think it's safe to say we're hijacking it, I thought I'd move discussion over to a new thread, especially since several posters have expressed interest in this discussion.

Do you think that the current standard of proposal discussion [in the interests of this discussion, I think it adviseable we don't point fingers too much] is too negative, too reactionary with regard to new posters and new ideas, and too likely to stifle, rather than encourage, debate?

I wasn't - I was using what you told me. If I don't have the full story, what do you expect? You said a week, not three days. Based on a week my response stands.
*sob*
My original words: "had we had a week". That is a subjunctive. We did not have a week. The draft was posted on NSO: "Feb 13 2006, 07:35 PM". The proposal was submitted less than 24 hours later by my reckoning. This line of argument is over. If I have future proposals, I'll post them on Jolt - hey it'll be good for my post-count, right - but only when I have time. And I did not.

I wouldn't go that far. There is a huge problem with ALC - it’s such a fundamentally huge problem it’s shocking that it has not been considered before.

Once I tinker with how it can be presented (and added to some of the stuff you have already seen), you’ll see it on here. You might even agree with it.
Don't say; do. I'll respond to this sort of vague babble when you actually post a critique.

I don’t need to. I didn’t target.
It’s not your opposition that is the issue, it is how you (and yes I do mean you, as well as one or two others) fail to make constructive criticism. Instead there is a tendancy to smack it down without trying to explain the reasoning. I feel there is normally something positive about any given proposal.
Taken from http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10612254&postcount=29

Now. Provide examples. Or retract it. Please.

I say it how I read it. You may not have meant for it to be read that way, or I may be misreading it, but it’s how it comes across to me. And if one person can read it that way, then perhaps others can too.
That's a fucking stupid argument, because by that logic, someone could read your posts and be offended, and it'd be your fault, despite your efforts to be a Care Bear. We shouldn't post at all - except the absence of posts might people think they were being ignored, and offend them too! Argh! My point is that you have a tendency to pick on sentences that have no relation whatsoever to your latest theory, and take them completely out of context. That's so in this case, and it's shatteringly unhelpful to any possibility of productive discussion.

We all have our bugbears. But at least you accept that posting a short response to an awful proposal can be considered poor form.
Yeah, and I think those who consider it such are wrong. I'm not going to waste my time on a shit proposal. Something that's good but flawed, I'll invest time in. Something that's good, there's probably little need for comments: remember the complete absence of discussion around Meteorological Cooperation? Solid proposal, little to add. Fucking catastrophic proposal such as we see quite regularly, little to add.

Do you think that the current standard of proposal discussion [in the interests of this discussion, I think it adviseable we don't point fingers too much]...Quite right too. For the record, I was trying to avoid finger pointing (see comments accepting I was using a very broad brush and how I commented that a list of posters who were negative at times comprised of almost everyone) and I apologise for any on my part that happened.is too negative, too reactionary with regard to new posters and new ideas, and too likely to stifle, rather than encourage, debate?I'm inclined to think it is. I feel it is currently very easy for some nations to belittle others.

I feel it's important to foster and encourage new posters and new ideas. There is a group of UN posters who joined in a very narrow space of time who all joined around early 2004 who are still about now – I put myself in that group. Was it coincidence that many joined in a narrow time frame? Or was there an environment within the UN at the time, which encouraged newcomers?

I don’t especially remember feeling especially encouraged, but I remember one or two nations who helped. I’ve been grateful to them for showing us the ropes, and I’ve always aspired to do the same to others.

I feel It's important to foster and encourage new posters and new ideas

I feel it's important to foster and encourage new posters and new ideas. There is a group of UN posters who joined in a very narrow space of time who all joined around early 2004 who are still about now – I put myself in that group. Was it coincidence that many joined in a narrow time frame? Or was there an environment within the UN at the time, which encouraged newcomers?That's interesting. I also recall the time I started playing, and many fellow newcomers at the time are still here today: Gruen, HOCEK, Cluichstan, The Palentine, LAE. In the past few months alone, there have sprouted a few newcomers who have decided to stay on longer than a few weeks: Fonzo, Ceo, J-T, Kivisto. Newcomers come. Some stay. Some don't. Don't try to romanticize the period at which you started playing as somehow more conducive to welcoming new players. "Your day" was no more productive or constructive than any other. And some of the resolutions I've read from that time period are indicative of that fact.

I feel It's important to foster and encourage new posters and new ideasAnd sniping at forum regulars and giving them condescending lectures accomplishes nothing to that end.

I don’t want to continue this much further, because it seems pretty clear that I’ve got you annoyed, and that’s not going to help at all. I’ll try and wrap this up, resist the instinctive urge to perpetuate this pointlessness and hopefully we can move on and get back to non-fingerpointing.

You might even get a hug.

Now. Provide examples. Or retract it. Please.I apologise for suggesting (inadvertently I might add) that you were “worse” than anyone else. I don’t apologise for suggesting you have a tendency to smack down newcomers efforts without trying to explain the reasoning. We all have our moments, you, I, and everyone else. It was wrong to somehow imply you were responsible for a greater magnitude of such occurrences. That's a stupid argument, because by that logic, someone could read your posts and be offended, and it'd be your fault, despite your efforts to be a Care Bear.Quite possibly. It depends on the scenario I suppose.

But lets just end this little spat here yeah? It’s not going anywhere further.

OOC: I actually destroyed my sisters care bear when I was younger. It was armless for several weeks.

Some stay. Some don't. Don't try to romanticize the period at which you started playing. It wasn't any more productive or constructive as any other era. And some of the resolutions I've read from that time period are indicative of that fact.<sigh> I didn't say it was more constructive. I actually said I don't recall that being the case. It's not more constructive than any other time. I think regulars appear in batches, and I think it's interesting to ponder why.

Note: I actually recall hating the UN for bringing in a piece of rubbish on prostitution the first time round. I did my first draft back then. I'm still rather proud of it.And sniping at forum regulars and giving them condescending lectures accomplishes nothing to that end.Absolutely, and I hope I'm not condescending to anyone. My RL better half tells me I'm a patronising git sometimes. It's a character fault of mine. Please don't think it's deliberate.

And sniping at forum regulars and giving them condescending lectures accomplishes nothing to that end.

I'd actually like to put this up as something I'd like to discuss, 'cause it's bugging me.

As Gruen said, sometimes you just don't have the patience to deal with the shitty proposals. Occasionally I do and it often results in a lot of shredded proposals. That's a matter of personal activity and my patience level for that day.

However, there are other issues bugging me within the vet community. I know tempers flared over more than a few proposals and resolutions that came about so far this year. More than a few regulars left either the Jolt forums or NS altogether. While it's nice to know that we have second homes available to those that can no longer stand jolt and continue drafting, I think these facts show there's a problem and I think it's a problem with the way the regulars are starting to treat each other. Some of it is backlash from the points Hirota has brought up, but not all of it.

I don't think it's nearly as much about what was discussed (there were a few departures where this was the case), but rather there seems to be more sniping, more people who feel they are personally being attacked, and just plain more problems with the way the regulars walk away from the debates. I think we see the same thing with the few departures from the Old Guard.

Unfortunately, I missed Feb so I missed the entire deterioration, but I think the question remains the same either way: what happened?

I don't think it's nearly as much about what was discussed (there were a few departures where this was the case), but rather there seems to be more sniping, more people who feel they are personally being attacked, and just plain more problems with the way the regulars walk away from the debates. I think we see the same thing with the few departures from the Old Guard.

Let's keep the UNOG discussions inside the UNOG, shall we? <--- Fonzoland's latest one-liner. :p

Let's keep the UNOG discussions inside the UNOG, shall we? <--- Fonzoland's latest one-liner. :p

Agreed, but I think what happened is still a relevant example.

That's a matter of personal activity and my patience level for that day.Yup, we all have lapses.

I going to repost from the OG my own comments on there, since they seem appropriate (and edited to reflect some changes). Hopefully no smacked bottoms from Fonzoland :)Too many people getting too touchy on here. I’m sure nobody means to offend anyone else on here. I certainly don’t. But sometimes it might happen. The trick is making sure that people know you did not intend to cause offence.

As long as people know that, then you can call them all sorts of names.

Now calm down, you bunch of to**ers. :DLots of strong personalities, some of whom are prone to clashing.I’d hope people respect one another enough to put that to one side. I might disagree with people, but you can’t let it ruin things over time. Sadly some people have, which means some very good people are no longer here today.It seems to be the same here. But what we have here on jolt is people who are just getting to grips with the UN – people who have little understanding of the UN – in those circumstances, if they are bashed, it is so much worse for them than it is for us.
If we can’t stay civil on offsite forums, what chance do we have on here? More importantly, with all the arguments going on, the whole atmosphere of the UN is soured.

If we can’t stay civil on offsite forums, what chance do we have on here? More importantly, with all the arguments going on, the whole atmosphere of the UN is soured.

That actually is part of the reason why I want to bring this up. If newbies see us bickering and having snipy remarks at one another, they're much less inclined to get involved for it isn't just "survive the newbie gauntlet" anymore (something that long-term gamers simply come to expect). If they see it as the way of the UN, they won't be interested in sticking around.

Firstly, everything I have said has been OOC. I consider this whole thread to be OOC.

I apologise for suggesting (inadvertently I might add) that you were “worse” than anyone else. I don’t apologise for suggesting you have a tendency to smack down newcomers efforts without trying to explain the reasoning. We all have our moments, you, I, and everyone else. It was wrong to somehow imply you were responsible for a greater magnitude of such occurrences.
Well, thank you, but you're not really retracting anything with the second non-apology. If you could provide evidence - which you clearly have, if you're to make such a claim - that I don't provide evidence for my 'smacking down', that'd be nice.

Anyway, one of the things I did before posting on Jolt was to read the stickied threads. Yes, I read all of TH's posts. I read some of the linked threads. Then I still had questions, and posted them. You seem to be suggesting we should go easy on those who don't know much about the UN; I'd suggest there is everything present at any player's disposal to find out a good deal, without their having to have been regulars at all.

Do you think that the current standard of proposal discussion [in the interests of this discussion, I think it adviseable we don't point fingers too much] is too negative, too reactionary with regard to new posters and new ideas, and too likely to stifle, rather than encourage, debate?
I remember when when I started posting here (before taking a year-and-a-half break), people would be praised for writing a resolution that followed the style guidelines, whereas now you just get censured for not following them.

I remember when when I started posting here (before taking a year-and-a-half break), people would be praised for writing a resolution that followed the style guidelines, whereas now you just get censured for not following them.
I think it depends on the resolution and its author. Wolfish got on fine with his Rights of Neutral States, which was 'unconventional'; there have been others that have 'deviated' but not really been criticised for it. Its substance, not appearance, that matters.

I remember when when I started posting here (before taking a year-and-a-half break), people would be praised for writing a resolution that followed the style guidelines, whereas now you just get censured for not following them.

There have been more than a few that have deviated from traditional styles but have gotten away with it. We will mention it to them but if they disagree, then we often just say "fine", and worry about some other issue. I remember when LAE started, he had quite a different style, but his biggest issues were grammar and arguments. I made a comment about the style but tackled the other two issues and did a final edit for his first few resolutions. He adapted some of the style suggestions I made but kept the others.

When you look at how he was criticized at the end of the day, it wasn't about style, it was about the topics he went after and how he went after them - all content issues.

Speaking as a new nation, I haven't noticed anything particularly bad directed towards me. On the other hand, I haven't tried to put forward a proposal yet, and I'm not sure whether I ever will.

At least not without going through non-Jolt forums first. You get less crazies away from here, and you're more likely to be able to find your thread again.

Speaking as a new nation, I haven't noticed anything particularly bad directed towards me. On the other hand, I haven't tried to put forward a proposal yet, and I'm not sure whether I ever will.

At least not without going through non-Jolt forums first. You get less crazies away from here, and you're more likely to be able to find your thread again.

New nation? Piss off! :p

Actually, I've preferred working the few proposals I've drafted on offsite forums myself -- more serious discussion and less threadjacking by people like me. ;)

That's interesting. I also recall the time I started playing, and many fellow newcomers at the time are still here today: Gruen, HOCEK, Cluichstan, The Palentine, LAE. In the past few months alone, there have sprouted a few newcomers who have decided to stay on longer than a few weeks: Fonzo, Ceo, J-T, Kivisto. Newcomers come. Some stay. Some don't.Meh. Y'all are a buncha noobs as far as I'm concerned. ;)

I'm of mixed opinions here. I'm seeing a lot of new (at least to me) people comming in here with reslutions that seem well written; a few better than some of the resolutions that come from longer term posters. It's still a school of hard knocks here, but I find that it's a contamination effect, we all tend to snipe more often when there is a resolution on the floor that we are currently passionately debating.

Personally I think that we have to look beyond the idea, the argument and the form, although all three are important. Everyone will at one time or the other miss the intitutively obvious. If you want to play with the big boys you have to be brave enough to risk being an absolute moron. (I know I have done this a number of times.) You need to also have a thick skin to be able to stand and be shown that you have stated something absolutely moronic. It's a rough thing, but the survival of the fittest produces only the best ideas.

Unfortunately, most true morons never come here in the first place. Instead they post their drivel directly to the proposal queues. This makes moderators very unhappy trying to clean the queues. And we don't want that do we?

This makes moderators very unhappy trying to clean the queues. And we don't want that do we?

Three words: Midget Protection Act. :p

That's the one that got me booted out of the UN.

As one of those nations that joined about 2 years ago, I've seen quite a bit of the UN (although I have had large periods where I didn't really follow what happened here).

The thing is, we've just had winter, a time when people are traditionally more snipy at eachother. And I do recall from those early days that there was a lot of bickering then, too. It's just gotten more organized these days. In the past, the odd nations shouted "natsov!" and we could ridicule them, now they're organized, have more (and, I have to admit, better) arguments, but at the same time you see the two groups growing apart. And with that, people seem to forget this is just a game.

In my home region, I've just copied a discussion from april 2004 to the archives. One of the remarks:
Yes, Gouda is being amazingly shortsighted and childish. I'm just waiting for him to scream, "We'll bury you!" and stomp out. Then we'll be able to take care of business.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. So not much has changed, but perhaps we started caring for it more. After all, there are more nations now who stayed longer than a few weeks and spend quite some time on this game. Poorly written resolutions barely make it now, and if they do they'll get repealed quickly. It isn't special anymore to write a proper resolution, it is expected. And anything less that that might meet more criticism than is strictly necessary.

Whether something can be done about that here, I doubt it. Except for looking at yourself and your own comments. In our region we try to help people there first, before they enter the jolt forum, so at least they're prepared and know how to write a resolution. But that's difficult to do for all regions.

Perhaps it'll get better in spring. Sunny days, happy people, and more fluffy resolutions. I can't wait! :)

Perhaps it'll get better in spring. Sunny days, happy people, and more fluffy resolutions. I can't wait! :)

Yeah, neither can I... :rolleyes:

Meh. Y'all are a buncha noobs as far as I'm concerned. ;)
Considering that you're older than dirt around here, I'm not suprised you feel that way.:p

Perhaps it'll get better in spring. Sunny days, happy people, and more fluffy resolutions. I can't wait! :)
Hah! Autumn here. Time for depression.

Heheheheh. I have a deep dark secret...I'm not a newbie. I actually had nations on here back when NS was brand new, and I tell you though, coming back a couple years later, I was a newbie. (Heck, I remember voting on the 40-hour-workweek!) the point is, things have changed. People are taking their RPing super-seriously, posters are massacred for bad resolutions, people are taking it all so much more seriously then they used to. Back in the day resolutions where very poorly ritten by these standards, RPs where barely coherent at best, and nobody threw a hissy fit when someone had more soldiers than their nation should be able to support or somesuch.

Man, things have changed, I'm certain...

RPs where barely coherent at bestPerhaps the UN RP was, and perhaps your RP was, but mine were certainly better than what you seem to be referencing.

DBL - still leaves the question: What do we do about it?

Obviously, going back isn't the answer. How do we move forward to try and address this issue? How do we keep ourselves in check from tearing a newbie's head off for just not having read all the stickies, or failing to understand some of them.

I'm not sure there is a simple answer. (At least one that would not involve at least a modicum of code or human involvement.) Basically, there are two types of "new" people in the UN, members and deligates.

It is not intitutively obvious to even a casual observer that forum participation is a must for full UN participation. In the real world "freshmen" representatives are typically given a short orientation course. Ideally we could write two courses, one for freshmen members and one for freshmen deligates. Ideally the system could also generate telegrams from the UN to new members/deligates referring them to the appropriate course to review.

Ideally the system could also generate telegrams from the UN to new members/deligates referring them to the appropriate course to review.
No. You have to put the course in the telegram, so by the time they know what it's about, and how much time it would take, they've already read it. :p

Why should we differentiate between members and delegates?

Well, first off we could have a "sticky summary" that just gives a rundown summary of what the stickies say, with relevant links to the stickies for extra detail.

Secondly, as for tearing newbies heads off, its really simple, don't. Just exercise some self-control, and try and be calm and helpful in educating a newbie.

Also, for UN delegates we could have other delegates set up to, errr, guide them through the process. Like buddy readers in elementary schools (older kids wh read with the little kids, helping them learn).

Erm.....

*points at the first post in the consolidated sticy whatchamacallit

Secondly, as for tearing newbies heads off, its really simple, don't. Just exercise some self-control, and try and be calm and helpful in educating a newbie.


[The Ausserland delegation stands and applauds.]

[The Kennyite delegate stands and proceeds to pelt the Ausserlander geeks -- errr, "delegation" with spitballs.]

[The Cluichstani delegation chimes in with the artificial-fart-under-the-arm trick.]

[Foreign Minister Olembe tries mightily to act as if he doesn't notice the goings on. Ambassador Ahlmann takes off her glasses and wipes a spitball smear from a lens. She looks over at the Kennyite representative and grins. (The last time she grinned at somebody like that, they cancelled his health insurance after he got out of the hospital.) Ambassador Barfanger glances at the Cluichstani delegation and snorts, "Typical constructive comment."] :p

[Foreign Minister Olembe tries mightily to act as if he doesn't notice the goings on. Ambassador Ahlmann takes off her glasses and wipes a spitball smear from a lens. She looks over at the Kennyite representative and grins. (The last time she grinned at somebody like that, they cancelled his health insurance after he got out of the hospital.) Ambassador Barfanger glances at the Cluichstani delegation and snorts, "Typical constructive comment."] :p

We can always be counted on for constructive comments. ;)

We can always be counted on for constructive comments. ;)

OOC: Yeah, like I count on my cat to wash the car. ;)

OOC: Yeah, like I count on my cat to wash the car. ;)

OOC: You must have a very well trained cat then. ;)

Heheheheh. I have a deep dark secret...I'm not a newbie. I actually had nations on here back when NS was brand new, and I tell you though, coming back a couple years later, I was a newbie. (Heck, I remember voting on the 40-hour-workweek!) the point is, things have changed. People are taking their RPing super-seriously, posters are massacred for bad resolutions, people are taking it all so much more seriously then they used to. Back in the day resolutions where very poorly ritten by these standards, RPs where barely coherent at best, and nobody threw a hissy fit when someone had more soldiers than their nation should be able to support or somesuch.

Man, things have changed, I'm certain...

Actually, truthfully, the same thing happened to me. I have been part of the game for years, and I would frequent the boards occasionally, but I really didn't post much. Honestly, back then I just wasn't interested in the boards as much as I was building up my nation. But you can only get the Harry Potter resolution so many times before you start looking for something else to do around here. So I joined a country that is actually active (gasp!) and then I started puttering around here.

I still don't post much, but I assure you that I read the boards everyday. And I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I've not felt unwelcome here at all.

Can I get away with comparing fighting on the internet to winning gold at the Special Olympics on here? Or is that considered entirely too tasteless here?

If anything were too tasteless for this forum, I'd have been perma-banned long ago. ;)

If anything were too tasteless for this forum, I'd have been perma-banned long ago. ;)


Three Words...Midget Protection Act...:p

Three Words...Midget Protection Act...:p
That just got him booted from the UN.

If anything were too tasteless for this forum, I'd have been perma-banned long ago. ;)

Okay, fighting on the internet is like winning gold at the Special Olympics. In the end, you're still retarded.

I used to have a macro for that, but I lost it..... :-(

Okay, fighting on the internet is like winning gold at the Special Olympics. In the end, you're still retarded.

I used to have a macro for that, but I lost it..... :-(I used to have a jpeg for it, but I lost it :(Secondly, as for tearing newbies heads off, its really simple, don't. Just exercise some self-control, and try and be calm and helpful in educating a newbie.That sounds an absolutely fantastic idea. Sadly, not everyone has such control, which is why this topic is here.

Before anyone thinks that sounds big headed, let me try and clarify. I do happen to think I am fortunate to keep a pretty calm head on here. At the same time, we all have our lapses, and that's only human.

Obviously, going back isn't the answer. How do we move forward to try and address this issue? How do we keep ourselves in check from tearing a newbie's head off for just not having read all the stickies, or failing to understand some of them.I quite like the idea of generic responses to newcomers. Something which is positive, points out what they have done, and how they can learn more about it.

I quite like the idea of generic responses to newcomers. Something which is positive, points out what they have done, and how they can learn more about it.

So I guess "STFU, noob! Die in a fire!" is right out then, eh? :p

So I guess "STFU, noob! Die in a fire!" is right out then, eh? :p

Sadly that was the antithesis of what I had in mind:D

I shall ponder what I mean whilst trash-talking on Halo 2 now. Excuse me :p

I quite like the idea of generic responses to newcomers. Something which is positive, points out what they have done, and how they can learn more about it.

"Well done. I notice you found the proposal submission form, accurately pasted your text there, and were able to spell the word 'rampart' correctly. This shows much promise! I suggest you get some help from the regulars in completely rewritting the text, eventually in a different category and about a totally different issue. If you want to learn more, I know a great secondary school in your neighbourhood. You might want to consider private tuition as well. TG me for details."

Would this work?

Dunno if it's just me, or fatigue from hours of TGing today, but dude, ya really got to stop making me crack up like that! :p

So I guess "STFU, noob! Die in a fire!" is right out then, eh? :p

But that's how I greet people in RL.....

"Well done. I notice you found the proposal submission form, accurately pasted your text there, and were able to spell the word 'rampart' correctly. This shows much promise! I suggest you get some help from the regulars in completely rewritting the text, eventually in a different category and about a totally different issue. If you want to learn more, I know a great secondary school in your neighbourhood. You might want to consider private tuition as well. TG me for details."

Would this work?

Bloody brilliant! :D

"Well done. I notice you found the proposal submission form, accurately pasted your text there, and were able to spell the word 'rampart' correctly. This shows much promise! I suggest you get some help from the regulars in completely rewritting the text, eventually in a different category and about a totally different issue. If you want to learn more, I know a great secondary school in your neighbourhood. You might want to consider private tuition as well. TG me for details."

Would this work?That’s the spirit – at least they will be pleased you complemented them on their spelling. ;)

Now, if only we can think of one that is not only polite, but sincere too…..:p

That’s the spirit – at least they will be pleased you complemented them on their spelling. ;)

Now, if only we can think of one that is not only polite, but sincere too…..:p

Sincerity's overrated. :p