NationStates Jolt Archive

Previous Drafting Topic: FoIA (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=465639)
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The General Assembly of the United Nations,

RECALLING Past Resolution #97 – Universal Library Coalition – for its ability to provide the populace with a great informational archive,

RECOGNIZING the limitations presented by the ULC regarding allowed informational entries and financial requirements,

ALSO RECOGNIZING the positive effects that the ability of obtaining freely available relevant governmental documents and other information brings to the people of a nation, including the ability of widespread communication abilities and the growth of knowledge,

CONCERNED by the lack of information readily available to the average citizen of some nations, especially those nations not members of the ULC and those who do not regularly use the internet for informational accessibility, thus leading to the ineptitude of some citizens in certain areas of desirable understanding,

ESTABLISHES the need for legislation which guarantees a citizens’ right to view relevant governmental information from public agencies and to visit a public forum to view helpful informational and educational material:

Part I – Governmental Informational Accessibility

CALLS ON each official public governmental agency of N.S.U.N. members to make publicly available upon request, the following governmental forms, records, and policies, including:

(1) A DESCRIPTION and INDEX of major information and record locator systems maintained by the agency,

(2) A HAND BOOK for obtaining various types and categories of public information from the agency,

(3) RULES OF PROCEDURE, descriptions of forms available or the places at which forms may be obtained, and instructions as to the scope and contents of all papers, reports, or examinations,

(4) FINAL OPINIONS, including concurring and dissenting opinions, as well as orders, made in the adjudication of cases, and,

(5) RECORDS which shall be provided by all public governmental agencies freely to the public.

EXEMPTIONS

(1) Documents and records specifically authorized under criteria established by a Government order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy and are in fact properly classified pursuant to such government order;

(2) Documents related solely to the internal personnel rules and practices of an agency,

(3) Documents and records specifically exempted from disclosure by statute,

(4) Trade secrets and commercial or financial information obtained from a person and privileged or confidential,

(5) Personnel and medical files and similar files the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,

(6) Contained in or related to examination, operating, or condition reports prepared by, on behalf of, or for the use of an agency responsible for the regulation or supervision of financial institutions,

UNDERSTANDING that the enactment of Part I of this legislation will lead to the discovery of widespread waste, fraud, abuse, and wrongdoing in the N.S.U.N. member governments,

AWARE that the enactment of Part I of this legislation will lead to the identification of unsafe consumer products, harmful drugs, and serious health hazards,

CONCLUDING that without free dissemination of information to the public, government agencies are able to commit illegal and immoral acts and,

FURTHER CONCLUDING that these acts will have severe consequences upon the public without its knowledge or understanding,

Part II – Non-Governmental Informational Accessibility

CALLS ON national and local governments of N.S.U.N. members to provide the public with the following informational utilities:

(1) Current census figures which include invaluable data such as number of citizens, and each citizens and business’ name, address, and telephone numbers. Citizens who desire to have their information be expunged from public records will be provided this ability,

(2) Free invaluable scientific and educationally accurate information, particularly dealing with health-related topics and other information that is necessary to the well-being of the populace. Nations considering restricting the public viewing of top-secret information, or information valuable to a war effort, will be provided this ability.

(3) A public forum to locally view the material stated in Part II,

(4) Accurate daily news reports to ensure the public retains contemporary knowledge, especially with regard to political news, scientific discoveries, and health issues,

(5) Federal initiatives to fund the creation of new libraries, and other informational archives,

UNDERSTANDING that the enactment of Part II of this legislation will lead to a substantial increase in public knowledge in various areas of understanding, as well as communicational advancements,

CONVINCED that this knowledge will allow the public to make informed decisions on many issues, particularly dealing with health concerns,

HEREBY ENACTS Parts I and II of the Freedom of Information Act.
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Looks like we've got another proposal that needs some serious slimming down. :rolleyes:

First thing: category? This seems to me to be either Furtherment of Democracy, or Free Trade. That will shape how this turns out. I have several substantive suggestions, but initially, I'd advise moving away from painting this as ULC 2: Return Of The Books. It's a new, different proposal, and your preamble clauses don't make it clear it stands on its own.

More to come later.

First thing: category? This seems to me to be either Furtherment of Democracy, or Free Trade.

I'm leaning towards Furtherment of Democracy.

I'll take part II first.

(1) Current census figures which include invaluable data such as number of citizens, and each citizens and business’ name, address, and telephone numbers. Citizens who desire to have their information be expunged from public records will be provided this ability,
Lose 'invaluable': you should be making the case for action in the preambles, not the operative section. The grammar is a little squiffy. And specifying telephone numbers is very modern-West: perhaps 'contact details'? Finally, I would prefer you changed the emphasis to 'citizens permitting their nation to be included', rather than 'being permitted to exclude it'. The default setting should be exclusion. This protection should also apply to businesses: some scientific firms in Gruenberg receive harassment for their animal testing laboratories, and wish to keep their details - and those of their contractors - private. (We don't, as smoking out the protestors gives us an excuse to shoot them, but we respect our businesses' rights in this.) Suggested rewrite:

"Current census figures, specifically including population estimates and the names, addresses and contact details of any citizens and businesses who agree to have such information included,"
Thinking about it, there may need to be an exclusion for children and the mentally-ill.

Honestly, I regard all of Part II as micromanagement, and I think this first clause shows why: it's not it's a bad idea, it's just too hard to adapt to national exigencies - and for this information to be useful, it has to do just that. At least leave this section as a national decision.

(2) Free invaluable scientific and educationally accurate information, particularly dealing with health-related topics and other information that is necessary to the well-being of the populace. Nations considering restricting the public viewing of top-secret information, or information valuable to a war effort, will be provided this ability.
Given the whole section is only 'calls on', and thus optional, the exemption isn't really needed. This clause also seems rather vague, and partially covered by things such as The Sex Education Act.

(3) A public forum to locally view the material stated in Part II,
Ok...

(4) Accurate daily news reports to ensure the public retains contemporary knowledge, especially with regard to political news, scientific discoveries, and health issues,
Seems fair.

(5) Federal initiatives to fund the creation of new libraries, and other informational archives,
Not all nations have federal governments. This line also seems slightly out of line with the rest: perhaps as an addendum simply generally all similar methods of expanding the availability of information to the public.

UNDERSTANDING that the enactment of Part II of this legislation will lead to a substantial increase in public knowledge in various areas of understanding, as well as communicational advancements,

CONVINCED that this knowledge will allow the public to make informed decisions on many issues, particularly dealing with health concerns,
This should all be in the preamble.

HEREBY ENACTS Parts I and II of the Freedom of Information Act.
Lose this line completely.

We're pleased to see that the honorable representative of Jey is continuing to work on this proposal. We believe it has considerable promise. Some comments after a quick reading of the draft....

UNDERSTANDING that the enactment of Part I of this legislation will lead to the discovery of widespread waste, fraud, abuse, and wrongdoing in the N.S.U.N. member governments,

We find this statement to be insulting to the member nations of the NSUN and would strongly recommend deletion.

We would recommend deleting Part II entirely. Part I covers making government information available to citizens. Fine. Part II attempts to turn governments into journalistic agencies and disseminators of information. We think Part I is sound and defensible. Part II simply opens the proposal to many serious objections.

Preambulatory clauses (UNDERSTANDING, AWARE, etc.) should precede the proposal's operative clauses. They're your arguments for why the proposal deserves support, and should be right up front.

If Part II of the proposal is removed, we would certainly support this proposal. We'd also be happy to help with suggestions on some of the technical points involved. We happen to have an individual in our Ministry for Security and Intelligence with many years of experience in dealing with freedom of information laws, and we'd be happy to place him at your service.

Patrick T. Olembe
Minister for Foreign Affairs

You need information, why wait for the UN resolution? Bahgum can hire you our infallible Mother in Law investigative persons. Special rates for overseas contracts, extra special rates for long stays overseas......

I'm leaning towards Furtherment of Democracy.It'd be nice to see a FoD Proposal.

Originally Posted by FoIA
EXEMPTIONS
(1) Documents and records specifically authorized under criteria established by a Government order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy and are in fact properly classified pursuant to such government order;
Part II – Non-Governmental Informational Accessibility
CALLS ON national and local governments of N.S.U.N. members to provide the public with the following informational utilities:
(1) Current census figures which include invaluable data such as number of citizens, and each citizens and business’ name, address, and telephone numbers. Citizens who desire to have their information be expunged from public records will be provided this ability,
:

This one to me does nothing as here we can either classify it secret for national defense reasons or just expunge it because we desire to do so. Thus why make a proposal that in it does nothing.... but make nations stamp Secret on everything.

Newest Draft.

-Removed Part II
-Tried to fix the preambulatory clauses

The General Assembly of the United Nations,

RECOGNIZING that all citizens deserve the right to access relevant governmental records, data, and procedures of all public agencies of their respective country,

CONCERNED that the possibility exists that citizens of UN nations are left completely unaware of the processes and other information of each of their government's agencies,

ALSO CONCERNED that the possibility exists that without this information exposed to the public, governmental agencies may commit illegal and immoral acts, as well as fraud, waste, and abuse on the populace, all without their knowledge or understanding,

CONSIDERING that declassifying this information will lead to the identification of unsafe consumer products and harmful / serious health hazards,

DECLARES that each official public governmental agency of N.S.U.N. members make publicly available upon request, the following governmental forms, records, and policies, including:

(1) A DESCRIPTION and INDEX of major information and record locator systems maintained by the agency,

(2) A HAND BOOK for obtaining various types and categories of public information from the agency,

(3) RULES OF PROCEDURE, descriptions of forms available or the places at which forms may be obtained, and instructions as to the scope and contents of all papers, reports, or examinations,

(4) FINAL OPINIONS, including concurring and dissenting opinions, as well as orders, made in the adjudication of cases, and,

(5) RECORDS which shall be provided by all public governmental agencies freely to the public.

EXEMPTIONS

(1) Documents and records specifically authorized under criteria established by a Government order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy and are in fact properly classified pursuant to such government order;

(2) Documents related solely to the internal personnel rules and practices of an agency,

(3) Documents and records specifically exempted from disclosure by statute,

(4) Trade secrets and commercial or financial information obtained from a person and privileged or confidential,

(5) Personnel and medical files and similar files the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,

(6) Contained in or related to examination, operating, or condition reports prepared by, on behalf of, or for the use of an agency responsible for the regulation or supervision of financial institutions.

EXEMPTIONS



Again as long as you have EXEMPTIONS we classify all our documents SECRET or PRIVATE and thus don't have any to fall under the requirements of this one... All this does it create red tape and give some fool a job that is not productive... toward something we need workers at. Like digging Uranium out of the ground... for making nukes to trade with those who can afford them from us...

BUMP. With the "new" proposal by Jeonju, we feel this deserves the same recognition and consideration when drafting.

BUMP. With the "new" proposal by Jeonju, we feel this deserves the same recognition and consideration when drafting.
Yeah, because now it's not even more confusing than before.

The proposals cross over so much anyway, couldn't you work together or something?

The General Assembly of the United Nations,

RECOGNIZING that all citizens deserve the right to access relevant governmental records, data, and procedures of all public agencies of their respective country,

This is totally unacceptable to Sithya. We are not about to allow the enemies of the state know what we know about them.

CONCERNED that the possibility exists that citizens of UN nations are left completely unaware of the processes and other information of each of their government's agencies,

So?

ALSO CONCERNED that the possibility exists that without this information exposed to the public, governmental agencies may commit illegal and immoral acts, as well as fraud, waste, and abuse on the populace, all without their knowledge or understanding,

What should we be more concerned about - the government committing immoral or illegal acts, or individual terrorists committing immoral or illegal acts? The Empire of Sithya has judged the latter to be of greater concern.


CONSIDERING that declassifying this information will lead to the identification of unsafe consumer products and harmful / serious health hazards,

The logic does not follow. We do not believe declassifying personal information necessarily leads to improvements in consumer products. Our policies are simple - if a manufacturer releases a product that is unsafe, the manufacturer is personally liable, and in extreme cases, will be executed.


DECLARES that each official public governmental agency of N.S.U.N. members make publicly available upon request, the following governmental forms, records, and policies, including:

(1) A DESCRIPTION and INDEX of major information and record locator systems maintained by the agency,


We are not about to open ourselves up to hackers and terrorists to let them know where and how and who has information about matters of vital national security. Unacceptable.


(2) A HAND BOOK for obtaining various types and categories of public information from the agency,


Unacceptable for the same reasons as listed above.


(3) RULES OF PROCEDURE, descriptions of forms available or the places at which forms may be obtained, and instructions as to the scope and contents of all papers, reports, or examinations,


Publication of such rules will be manipulated by the enemies of the state to their own ends. Again, unacceptable.


(4) FINAL OPINIONS, including concurring and dissenting opinions, as well as orders, made in the adjudication of cases, and,


We already have an efficient system of justice. The guilty are either exiled to the Nether Regions of Sithya's Outer Islands to mine uranium or are executed. The innocent are set free and given a sum for their trouble. We see no need for this additional transparency.


(5) RECORDS which shall be provided by all public governmental agencies freely to the public.


We have no intention of doing so for the reasons which have previously been described.


EXEMPTIONS

(1) Documents and records specifically authorized under criteria established by a Government order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy and are in fact properly classified pursuant to such government order;

(2) Documents related solely to the internal personnel rules and practices of an agency,

(3) Documents and records specifically exempted from disclosure by statute,

(4) Trade secrets and commercial or financial information obtained from a person and privileged or confidential,

(5) Personnel and medical files and similar files the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,

(6) Contained in or related to examination, operating, or condition reports prepared by, on behalf of, or for the use of an agency responsible for the regulation or supervision of financial institutions.

If this measure passes, Sithya will utilise all these exemptions to maintain the status quo for our information policies.

BUMP. With the "new" proposal by Jeonju, we feel this deserves the same recognition and consideration when drafting.

its not new, its old...i proposed it almost a year and a half ago...if anything, jey has the "new" version, which is my "old" version...get the facts...freedom of information

The proposals cross over so much anyway, couldn't you work together or something?

This seems increasingly unlikely. As the initial author of FOIA, I told Jeonju that I would be willing to work with him if I could retain authorship. He replied, claiming I had plagiarized all of my resolutions and that he must get authorship if this is submitted.

this makes no sense, but if you are admitting your mistakes and offering me sole authorship, then i accept.

Acting like an ass towards a repected member of this assembly is not going to score you any points...

this makes no sense, but if you are admitting your mistakes and offering me sole authorship, then i accept.
Jeonju, you changed the post you quoted. I've lost any respect I had for you (which, honstly, I can't say I had much).

this makes no sense, but if you are admitting your mistakes and offering me sole authorship, then i accept.
That is pretty fucking low.

Acting like an ass towards a repected member of this assembly is not going to score you any points...
you changed my quote on this page Cluichstan
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482478&page=2
stop being such an ass.

Jeonju, you changed the post you quoted. I've lost any respect I had for you (which, honstly, I can't say I had much).
thats fine, but i have no respect for nations that wont admit that they are NOT the FIRST author of a resolution. ask some of the nations that have been around. The FOIA was a proposal long before Jey claims to have "authored it"

That is pretty fucking low.
lying about sole authorship is pretty low as well.

thats fine, but i have no respect for nations that wont admit that they are NOT the FIRST author of a resolution. ask some of the nations that have been around. The FOIA was a proposal long before Jey claims to have "authored it"

I've been around. And I've seen plenty of proposals that do pretty much the same thing. Freedom of Information, Ban Nukes, End Capital Punishment, Equal Wages for All, and so on. Most proposal ideas and formats have been done in the UN before.

If you want to claim that he's plagiarising, I suggest you find the post or file where you first authored the text Jey is claiming as his own and go to the Mods with it. Either that or stop wasting our time. Whichever.

If you want to claim that he's plagiarising, I suggest you find the post or file where you first authored the text Jey is claiming as his own and go to the Mods with it. Either that or stop wasting our time. Whichever.
OOC: i would, except my proposal was posted on a forum that no longer exists, this was in 2005, when the site was under construction and the URL changed. also the forum changed. i realize time may be wasted, but wasting or spending, they are both the same...time is time. but, when you saw Freedom of Information Act for the first time, that was me, the ex-nation of Mephi.

This seems increasingly unlikely. As the plagiarizing author of the second FOIA, I told Jeonju that I would be willing to work with him if I could retain authorship. He replied, correctly pointing out that I had plagiarized all of my resolutions and that he must get authorship if this is submitted.this makes no sense, but if you are admitting your mistakes and offering me sole authorship, then i accept.
Jeonju, it's one thing to attempt to change quotes while making it quite clear that the edits are humorous. It's an entirely different event when done maliciously to attempt to justify YOUR theft of the prior resolution.

Do it again, and you'll get an enforced vacation from the forums. Clear?

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

OOC: i would, except my proposal was posted on a forum that no longer exists, this was in 2005, when the site was under construction and the URL changed. also the forum changed. i realize time may be wasted, but wasting or spending, they are both the same...time is time. but, when you saw Freedom of Information Act for the first time, that was me, the ex-nation of Mephi.

Time is indeed time. I see your point on that. But...

Use Google to search through archived posts from the old forum if you can, though I've seen nothing to indicate that you're telling the truth here.

And by the way, the change in forums was in 2004, not 2005. And the site was under construction in 2002, not 2005. Just so you know.

Edit in Response to Quoted Post:

Somehow I doubt that. And even if you were...so what? Look at Mephi's proposal and Jey's propposal. They have the same basic idea behind them, but they're not the same proposal.

except my proposal was posted on a forum that no longer exists
The URL may have changed, but the threads were ported over. I see threads gonig back to 2003 in the history (you have to a dozen or two pages of corrupt topics to get there, but they're still here. You can't use that as an excuse.

Your credibility would have also been greater if you had observed the rules about only one UN nation. Did you do that with Mephi the last time too? Looks like you might have.

Ah...damned if he's lying, damned if he isn't. An unfortunate situation to be in.

I remember now.

Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=465639) is Jey's initial draft; here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=339523) is Mephi's old draft.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10311273&postcount=4
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10311745&postcount=6

Jeonju, it's one thing to attempt to change quotes while making it quite clear that the edits are humorous. It's an entirely different event when done maliciously to attempt to justify YOUR theft of the prior resolution.
i understand, and i will try to make it more obvious next time but,
i thought it was quite clear that i was being humorous...deadpan, dry, unpopular, yes...but Jey has not openly admitted his own plagiarism. it was satire.

I remember now.

Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=465639) is Jey's initial draft; here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=339523) is Mephi's old draft.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10311273&postcount=4
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10311745&postcount=6
there are 2 clauses in Jey's draft that are used word for word, and others that have been changed slightly, without my permission.
thanks for the sleuthing gruenberg

Jeonju, it doesn't matter... most of those clauses are taken directly from the US FOIA: if anything, you BOTH plagerized them.

Ok, I've attempted to fuse my proposal and the one Gruenberg supplied into one super-FoIA. I've split it into two parts: FoIA regarding governmental information, and FoIA regarding non-governmental information. Many parts of the FoIA from '04 remain intact.

It's three pages long and 4000+ characters, so let me know if the proposal doesn't flow properly. Also, any comments would be appreciated.
this quote is from this page, post #9
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=465639

you changed my quote on this page Cluichstan
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482478&page=2
stop being such an ass.

I'm not even on that page, dumbass. Just get lost already.

there are 2 clauses in Jey's draft that are used word for word, and others that have been changed slightly, without my permission.
thanks for the sleuthing gruenberg
What you seem to be forgetting is that BOTH proposals rely on ANOTHER document - the RL US FOIA act.

I can think of one MAJOR difference between the FOIA submitted by Jey and the FOIA submitted by Mephi. The one Jey submitted has a chance of my support. I realize that some of the differences may be subtle, but they are enough. I can think of no greater difference that could be had between two proposals, if one garners support and the other does not.

OOC: out of curiousity, wouldn't it be more appropriate for the plagiarism debate if it were Mephi arguing with Jey. I have heard your claim that Mephi is who you used to be, but IC it looks like you're accusing someone of plagiarizing your work when someone else wrote it. It would be like me accusing someone of plagiarizing my work if they were to come up with a new Counter-Terrorism Proposal, even though it was authored by Cluichstan. If you wish to continue the debate over who submitted first, resurrect Mephi, have Mephi resubmit FOIA (to make the argument worthwhile), and then there will be a point to it.

there are 2 clauses in Jey's draft that are used word for word, and others that have been changed slightly, without my permission.
thanks for the sleuthing gruenberg

Out of curiosity, which specific clauses were "used word for word"?

Lorelei M. Ahlmann
Ambassador-at-Large

we accept your offer of co-authorship. how close do you think your draft is to completion?

Thus, Jeonju has accepted co-authorship of the proposal. We are not at all pleased with the insults directed at us by Jeonju, but, in order to quickly resolve this matter and make it more understandable, we are going to compromise. The FOIA drafted in this topic by Jey is the primary FOIA, with Jeonju as a co-author.

We thank you all for your help with this matter.

Now that it (hopefully) is over, we can begin drafting once again :) .

If you wish to continue the debate over who submitted first, resurrect Mephi, have Mephi resubmit FOIA
I implicitly confirmed that the same player ran both nations in post #26. I'll now explicitly state it: Jeonju = Mephi. Still, the resurrection idea has merit, as Jeonju is no longer in the UN.

we have requested moderator intervention in order to restore Mephi to the ranks of the living.

I implicitly confirmed that the same player ran both nations in post #26. I'll now explicitly state it: Jeonju = Mephi. Still, the resurrection idea has merit, as Jeonju is no longer in the UN.


Cool. And sorry, I must have missed the implication earlier in the thread.