NationStates Jolt Archive

"Might I also suggest that it's a damn good idea to get all proposals approved BEFORE you submit them, even if you don't think there's a snowflake's chance in hell that there's anything illegal with it."

Is it just me or is anyone else annoyed with the fact that the UN is now suggesting that we propose a proposal instead of just posting it? I'm all for things being read over before being posted, however now they are suggesting that we have to propose a proposal! It's absurd! The idea of a proposal in the first place is to throw around ideas, but now it seems as if the "Elite", will be the only ones that are allowed to pass the proposals. It is a slippery slope, and may indeed lead to segregation. APPAULED!!!

Excuse me, what?

OOC:
What do you mean? I didn't understand anything that you said. Please explain in more detail for the sake of us who arn't related to you.

"Might I also suggest that it's a damn good idea to get all proposals approved BEFORE you submit them, even if you don't think there's a snowflake's chance in hell that there's anything illegal with it."

Is it just me or is anyone else annoyed with the fact that the UN is now suggesting that we propose a proposal instead of just posting it? I'm all for things being read over before being posted, however now they are suggesting that we have to propose a proposal! It's absurd! The idea of a proposal in the first place is to throw around ideas, but now it seems as if the "Elite", will be the only ones that are allowed to pass the proposals. It is a slippery slope, and may indeed lead to segregation. APPAULED!!!

Who on earth told you that?! I can just see the moderators gasping and gagging. They have enough to do without something like this.

If this was posted in a forum thread, please let us know where so we can see who lost their marbles.

Lorelei M. Ahlmann
Ambassador-at-Large

Ahem.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8916033&postcount=4


Edit: And how wrong do I think the UN are? Yes. ;)

"Might I also suggest that it's a damn good idea to get all proposals approved BEFORE you submit them, even if you don't think there's a snowflake's chance in hell that there's anything illegal with it."

Is it just me or is anyone else annoyed with the fact that the UN is now suggesting that we propose a proposal instead of just posting it? I'm all for things being read over before being posted, however now they are suggesting that we have to propose a proposal! It's absurd! The idea of a proposal in the first place is to throw around ideas, but now it seems as if the "Elite", will be the only ones that are allowed to pass the proposals. It is a slippery slope, and may indeed lead to segregation. APPAULED!!!

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/9513/spongebobweed9gb.jpg

Ahem.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8916033&postcount=4


Edit: And how wrong do I think the UN are? Yes. ;)

OOC: Sheesh! I can understand the confusion on Allied Alien Planets' part, since Hersfold's post is in the "Official Rules" thread. It could easily be seen as "official".

Allied Alien Planets -- My (totally unofficial) advice.... If you have a doubt about the legality of a proposal you draft, mention it when you post the draft in the NSUN forum. One of the moderators may give you an answer. If not, you'll probably get some help in resolving your doubt from experienced players. Only if that doesn't work should you ask for a ruling from a moderator.

Am I right, Hack?

Frankly, it's not so much "one of the mods" as it is the UN regulars. You guys have FAR more time to analyze this stuff than we do. Every once in a great while (like now) we get called in to settle a dispute between opinions about legality or category, but it's far more likely that somebody here has correctly aided a new player.

We've got a ton to do besides the UN. You guys can spend 3 hours tearing apart a single proposal. We'd rather sponge off the work you're already doing, if y'all don't mind.

To put it in context, the official paragraph that Hersfold was replying to:

Getting Additional Help
As extensive as these explanations are, sometimes there are things that still aren't clear and you need additional help. Ask your fellow players for advice. When drafting a UN proposal, do it on a word processor on your own computer. Then, post the draft as a new topic here in the "United Nations" forum and ask for advice. Hopefully, experienced players will come along and point out anything in your draft proposal that violates NationStates rules and needs to be changed. Moderators are not always available to answer questions on draft proposals, so experienced players are the next best thing. This is essentially a peer review process.

Do not underestimate the value of informal peer reviews. When you submit a proposal to the UN, you certify that you understand the proposal rules and that you are subject to Moderator action if the proposal is deemed to be in violation. "I didn't know" or "I didn't understand" is not an acceptable excuse. If your nation gets thrown out of the UN, then that's permanent. In that case, you'll have to start over with a new nation if you want to continue participating in the UN. Get help before you get in trouble.

Is this settled, because being from California I *actually* do have the ability to read between the lines of half-questions ...

The advice quoted (while sounding strange) actually makes a fair amount of sense. Last night while working on the NSWiki Olympics articles (I was archiving way old UN links) I filled out similar advice, which in non-California translates to, "It is a good idea to try and find somebody else to check your idea first."

I think you should also bear in mind that krrrrrrrkkkkkkkr krrrrrrrkrrrrrrrrrkr noise in the background. Yes, it's an axe grinding. Hersfold had probably the most famous deleted proposal of all time, so it's understandable that he would be especially keen on double-checking.

I think you should also bear in mind that krrrrrrrkkkkkkkr krrrrrrrkrrrrrrrrrkr noise in the background. Yes, it's an axe grinding. Hersfold had probably the most famous deleted proposal of all time, so it's understandable that he would be especially keen on double-checking.

Wasn't it Hersfold who got a resolution passed that (accidentally?) directed some of every UN member's taxes into his own nation's education budget?

This isn't a 'kick Hersfold' thread. But yes.

Is this settled, because being from California I *actually* do have the ability to read between the lines of half-questions ...

The advice quoted (while sounding strange) actually makes a fair amount of sense. Last night while working on the NSWiki Olympics articles (I was archiving way old UN links) I filled out similar advice, which in non-California translates to, "It is a good idea to try and find somebody else to check your idea first."

OOC:

Mik, I think the point is that Hersfold's post uses the word "approved", which could be read as meaning that every time someone writes a proposal, he or she ought to get a mod ruling on legality before submitting. Absurd, of course.

Your suggestion that a person get a second opinion is perfectly sound, of course. That's the beauty of being able to post drafts in the forum.

OOC:

Mik, I think the point is that Hersfold's post uses the word "approved", which could be read as meaning that every time someone writes a proposal, he or she ought to get a mod ruling on legality before submitting. Absurd, of course.

Your suggestion that a person get a second opinion is perfectly sound, of course. That's the beauty of being able to post drafts in the forum.

I helped Hersfold on the Olympics resolution (and it is the most famous example of something deleted -- like Gruen said), but it isn't the only relevant one here ...

The problem with second opinions, is that I've seen times when players who tend to even disagree will agree and "approve" a draft, only to have a moderator pull some other rabbit out of his hat. Recent example: Powerhungry Chipmunks and security guards (not police) in UN facilities in the UN Arms Amnesity Act (sp?). Virtually most of the current cast of UN forum regulars were comfortable with the proposal, but GMC's own axe came down HARD.

I actually think Hersfold's advice isn't that absurd because he has been burned twice and other players have as well including PC and myself.

The problem is that there are moderators who don't give a damn about this opinions of forum regulars (the second opinions you might request) and aren't paying attention to how the other mods are interpeting the current rule set .... but every now and then, they join Hack and Fris and sweep through the proposal queue and base their decisions on a different idea of what the UN rules are. They aren't "wrong", but they are basing their decisions on a vastly different idea of what is OK and what is wrong.

Given that mods have almost NEVER overturned another moderation decision in public (I've seen it once, and it was in relation to Hersfold again ... he and I wrote an extension of the UN Educational Committee ... which was mentioned here as well ... and Stephistan zapped him because the proposal was called "Amendment to the UNEC" or something similar ... Cog and other moderators managed to get her to change her mind on Hersfold's warning and it *may* have been removed, but not being a moderator I don't know if it was officially removed or not), a decision by somebody who isn't active here, really makes the advice forum regulars might give sometimes spotty. :/

Problem solved; Hersfold's post has been deleted.

OOC:

Mik, I think the point is that Hersfold's post uses the word "approved", which could be read as meaning that every time someone writes a proposal, he or she ought to get a mod ruling on legality before submitting. Absurd, of course.

Your suggestion that a person get a second opinion is perfectly sound, of course. That's the beauty of being able to post drafts in the forum.

I completely agree with having a draft looked over. But the way it was implied seemed to suggest that a resolution is passed that would disallow delegates to post a finished proposal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a second opinion. Especially for inexperienced members such as myself.
And to comment, California man. Do not, under any circumstances, patronise me, at least I had the foresight to see a fundamental change that could have been brought about should it have been left alone. Perhaps it was taken out of context, perhaps not. Your arrogance just shows how little you seem to grasp the concept that the UN's left hand might not know what it's right hand was doing. Please respect that. We are all learning, and keen to be of some help to the UN. It does not need people that are just out to criticise.

Wow...just ten posts and you're already seriously trying my patience...

And to comment, California man.

Your arrogance just shows how little you seem to grasp the concept that the UN's left hand might not know what it's right hand was doing. Please respect that. We are all learning, and keen to be of some help to the UN. It does not need people that are just out to criticise.

Who are you talking to and what specifically (please quote) did you find arrogant? It helps the rest of us know whom you are mad at and why. Could you be a bit more specific?


I suspect you are flaming me here, which, I actually understood your first question and feel it still remains valid. Given the number of people whom didn't and responded with "What are you smoking", I figured a bit of humour, "I speak Californian" might lighten things up. Americans are always teasing Californians, just like Germans teasing Bavarians. It really means nothing. :)

But if you'll reread my reply to Ausserland, who also is a really nice guy, I think you'll see that I'm of the opinion that Hersfold's advice (even if Hack deleted it) had value.

Who are you talking to and what specifically (please quote) did you find arrogant? It helps the rest of us know whom you are mad at and why. Could you be a bit more specific?


I suspect you are flaming me here, which, I actually understood your first question and feel it still remains valid. Given the number of people whom didn't and responded with "What are you smoking", I figured a bit of humour, "I speak Californian" might lighten things up. Americans are always teasing Californians, just like Germans teasing Bavarians. It really means nothing. :)

But if you'll reread my reply to Ausserland, who also is a really nice guy, I think you'll see that I'm of the opinion that Hersfold's advice (even if Hack deleted it) had value.


It really is quite irrelevant now... Never mind. All I wanted was some constructive criticism, not sarcasm. I am only trying to make things better. And not just for myself, but for everyone. It seems to me that new members to nationstates seem to get stuck with the bad end of the stick. You have already made your alliances etc. What are the newbies supposed to do? Biased is a very common trait.

What are the newbies supposed to do?

Watch and learn. That way we're not subjected to proposals for a universal language and the like.

Watch and learn. That way we're not subjected to proposals for a universal language and the like.


Nice hit below the belt! :P

Nice hit below the belt! :P

It wasn't meant as a jab really.

It really is quite irrelevant now... Never mind. All I wanted was some constructive criticism, not sarcasm. I am only trying to make things better. And not just for myself, but for everyone. It seems to me that new members to nationstates seem to get stuck with the bad end of the stick. You have already made your alliances etc. What are the newbies supposed to do? Biased is a very common trait.

Oh, most of us welcome alliances with newbies and players whom are interested in maintaining long-term and friendly relationships ... as nations. You just don't see much of that happening here on NationStates' official (Jolt) forums. Alliances and things tend to start at the regional level.

As for sarcasm, I wasn't making fun of you, but the fact that you asked a question and *others* didn't understand it.

It seems to me that new members to nationstates seem to get stuck with the bad end of the stick. You have already made your alliances etc. What are the newbies supposed to do? Biased is a very common trait.Actually I agree, sometimes us regulars do have a habit of being harsh on newcomers. Most of the time that’s quite warranted though. The number of times we will have a newcomer try and wade in with a dozen or so (poor) resolutions, with no idea how the UN works, and with no idea of the differences between NS and RL, and several other things which range from the naïve to the absurdly stupid…well, it’s very common. Worst of all most of these newcomers are so damned arrogant and think they know better. That’s probably why we can be a bit harsh. Normally it’s well justified. Sometimes a newcomer will join in who can contribute given time, and I hope you might be one of them.

Don’t take it personally is my advice; it works well in the short and long term. I disagree with a number of established nations on here on a number of issues, but I still respect the nation, and don’t try and let it affect my discussions with them in the future.

Actually I agree, sometimes us regulars do have a habit of being harsh on newcomers. Most of the time that’s quite warranted though. The number of times we will have a newcomer try and wade in with a dozen or so (poor) resolutions, with no idea how the UN works, and with no idea of the differences between NS and RL, and several other things which range from the naïve to the absurdly stupid…well, it’s very common. Worst of all most of these newcomers are so damned arrogant and think they know better. That’s probably why we can be a bit harsh. Normally it’s well justified. Sometimes a newcomer will join in who can contribute given time, and I hope you might be one of them.

Don’t take it personally is my advice; it works well in the short and long term. I disagree with a number of established nations on here on a number of issues, but I still respect the nation, and don’t try and let it affect my discussions with them in the future.

We second the remarks of the distinguished representative of Hirota. And we would add that it's sometimes devilish hard to tell the difference between clueless arrogance and the enthusiasm common to newcomers to a group.

Our delegation's policy is that, if we think a newcomer is obviously just spouting off and not interested in participating positively, we ignore them. They'll probably just go away. If we think the newcomer just might be willing to learn and contribute, we try to post something that's positive -- or at least not insulting. Contributing members of this Assembly are too few for us to drive off people who might just join those ranks. Better to be safe than sorry.

It's really not that hard to avoid posting insulting one-line responses.

Patrick T. Olembe
Minister for Foreign Affairs

It's really not that hard to avoid posting insulting one-line responses.

Speak for yourself. :p

Speak for yourself. :pSTFU n00b ;)

STFU n00b ;)

Oh noes!!!!1one Teh M0D! :eek:

Oh noes!!!!1one Teh M0D! :eek:
Do I have to seperate you two? [/notamod]

It seems to me that new members to nationstates seem to get stuck with the bad end of the stick. You have already made your alliances etc. What are the newbies supposed to do? Biased is a very common trait.

I have to say that I've not felt as though I got the bad end of the stick here. I'm new to the forums, not new to the game. Granted, I don't post a whole hell of a lot so I haven't really given anyone a chance to decide they hate my guts yet, but still..... I don't think I've pissed anyone off yet, anyway.

You do here what you do on every new message board you go on: you watch for a little bit and then jump in. Read everything and see what the hell is going on. I screwed up on my first proposal submission (I didn't know what the hell "branding" was) but I found the rules and read them and now I know.

Trust me, these guys aren't all that harsh to n00bs. I belong to a couple of boards where there are no mods. Wanna talk about making people cry? Go there with a box of popcorn and enjoy the show.

Trust me, these guys aren't all that harsh to n00bs.

Damn...I must not be doing my job properly.

Damn...I must not be doing my job properly.

Nope. Guess not. You remind me of a fluffy bunny. Or Happy Bunny. Whichever you prefer.

Nope. Guess not. You remind me of a fluffy bunny. Or Happy Bunny. Whichever you prefer.

Actually, according to Fonzo, I'm a fluffy puppy.

Actually, according to Fonzo, I'm a fluffy puppy.

Oh, okay. Then we'll go with that. Cuz a fluffy bunpy would just be silly.