NationStates Jolt Archive

The United Nations,

NOTING the potential security risks arising from being unable to accurately assess those entering and leaving a nation,

FURTHER NOTING that such a potential security risk may be exacerbated by the inability of relevant officials to be unable to understand all the information on a foreign passport, and to guarantee it's authenticity,

1. DEFINES a Passport as a travel document by the nation of which the person is a citizen, identifying the bearer as a national of that country,

2. MANDATES that all citizens carry a Passport issued by a relevant nation in which they hold citizenship or other citizen status, when travelling abroad, except where deemed unnecessary through the existence of bilateral and multilateral border control agreement,

3. PERMITS issuing nations to allow children under the age of majority, or a specific age that is lower than that of the age of majority, in the issuing country to travel on the passport of one or both of their parents, as necessary under national law

4. MANDATES that a Passport must have the following minimum information in English and all languages recognised by the issuing state:
a) Name, date of birth, gender, place of birth, nationality, citizenship status, height and distinguishing features of the holder;
b) A facial photograph or other accurate portrait of the holder’s face measuring at least 35mm by 45mm;
c) A unique passport number in both Arabic numerals, and, should letters be used, Roman lettering along with any numeral and lettering system used in the issuing state;
d) Passport type;
e) Protections against the counterfeiting of Passports;
f) Adequate space for visas, and entry and exit stamps;
g) The names and dates of births of children listed on a parent's passport (if applicable)

5. AFFIRMS that the passport entitles the holder to any of the Consular services available from their nation's Embassies, Consulates, Consulates-General and Legations as they may require,

6. ENSHRINES the right for nationals of one nation, carrying a passport that identifies them a national of said nation, who is held under arrest or detained in gaol either prior to or following prosecution, or pending execution or other such punishment, in a foreign nation to have visitations made by a consul of said national's nation, or another nation with bilateral or multilateral agreements in place in cases where there is no diplomatic or consular presence of the national's nation, to their place of imprisonment or detention and access to relevant legal information, and to ensure that the detained national is treated well,

8. AFFIRMS that any person, who holds citizenship in a nation within the United Nations, carrying a valid passport and visa cannot be denied entry to a nation, except where the security of that nation is at stake,

9. CALLS UPON all nations to recognise the passports of citizens from nations within the United Nations,

10. MANDATES that all immigration and other relevant officials have a basic grounding in the English Language,

11. MANDATES the publication of all Passport designs (including information about counterfeit protections), to be made available to all relevent officials, including but not limited to: immigration officials, customs and excise officers, security personnel, police constables, and check in staff.


Submitting as two seperate resolutions. (International Vias Act will be part 2)Nothing's really changed, except the addition of point 6. And bits of the preamble

There is a loophole in clause 3 and problems in a few others, but otherwise it looks OK.

For #3, suppose I just set the age of majority at 100 years of age? If parents were, say, 40, then other nations would be forced to let children and parents travel who were both minors.

I don't like the idea that immigration officials must speak English. Perhaps just mandating translators for a few main languages?


8. AFFIRMS that any person, who holds citizenship in a nation within the United Nations, carrying a valid passport and visa cannot be denied entry to a nation, except where the security of that nation is at stake,
I don't like this. There are a lot of valid reasons to deny entry besides security concerns. Biohazards/disease outbreaks/agricultural health concerns are one, trade embargoes and international leverage are others. I think nations should retain the right to deny entry at their discretion.

b) A facial photograph or other accurate portrait of the holder’s face measuring at least 35mm by 45mm;
This seems limiting. Suppose a nation developed a technology where the photo could be shrunk down and then enlarged with an included magnifyer? I propose that it read: b) A facial photograph or other accurate portrait of the holder’s face that can be easily seen to be the same person as the holder; or something to that effect.

c) A unique passport number in both Arabic numerals, and, should letters be used, Roman lettering along with any numeral and lettering system used in the issuing state;
Again, this seems limiting. How about just a unique passport number?

f) Adequate space for visas, and entry and exit stamps;

Stamps are only one way of recognizing that a person came into a country.

I like it, it just needs a few more tweaks.

This is very good, with the exception of 4 c) (which I feel goes into more detail than is necessary) and 10, which is unworkable.

Mathieu Vergniaud
Deputy Speaker to the UN

Wait, are your two proposals seperate or are they redrafts of each other in two different threads? If not, clause 8 in this version (which is clause 3 in the other version) is still unacceptable to me.

2. MANDATES that all citizens carry a Passport issued by a relevant nation in which they hold citizenship or other citizen status, when travelling abroad, except where deemed unnecessary through the existence of bilateral and multilateral border control agreement,

So you're dropping the line allowing nations to waive this requirement on a unilateral basis (if, for example, they're poor nations that want to encourage tourism from richer neighbours)?

4. MANDATES that a Passport must have the following minimum information in English and all languages recognised by the issuing state
a) Name, date of birth, gender, place of birth, nationality, citizenship status, height and distinguishing features of the holder;
b) A facial photograph or other accurate portrait of the holder’s face measuring at least 35mm by 45mm;

"All languages recognised by the issuing state" could be a bit much in some cases... Consider the fact that an ethnically-diverse nation might only count a few languages as 'official' ones for the country as a whole but also recognise several different languages as 'official' locally in each of various provinces or in tribal reservations: Perhaps "All languages that are 'official' ones for the issuing state"?
As it's currently written, it would seem to say that the photographs have to be in each of those languages as well... ;-)

I'll include unilateral and change the thingy about official laguages. Can't do much about photographs because it would mean that I would have to stick it on every other option, which would bring it above the character limit.


As for the English thing, I've explained why it is really the only feasible option. You would either need 40,000 page passports with ever language, all immigration officers to speak every language, or translators, which would be far more expensive for each country, bar English speaking nations, concerned (you'd have to double the size of your immigration service). And it only insists on a basic grounding; they don't need to be fluent

Then I'm afraid this proposal does not get our support.

MV

Children should be required to have a passport.

Then I'm afraid this proposal does not get our support.

MV

But there is no good reason not to educate them in English; apart from wanting to be irritating. They would only need to know "Name" et cetera. It's not as if I'm asking them to be able to understand Chaucer...

We're being "irritating" about this subject because look at the repeal for the UNSC. They specifically mention Earth and the Moon as the only places covered under the resolution, therefore creating a monserous loophole for those not on Earth and every other object in space that can support colonizing. In this proposal, you list English as the only means of communicating which is not a very good move if you want this to stay on the books for a while and not get repealed.

In this proposal, you list English as the only means of communicating which is not a very good move if you want this to stay on the books for a while and not get repealed.

No, all it says is that English should be listed alongside national languages, and that, therefore, immigration officers should be instructed in basic English. Plus, English IS the only means of communicating in the UN, and is the most widely spoken language in NS. I fail to see what UNSC has to do with this. A bigger loophole would arise from not having instruction in foreign languages ("Sorry mate, we can't let you in because we don't understand Kernwaffen, and so we can't tell if this is your passport")

But by mandating that English be required, you're forcing something onto countries that, obviously, a lot are not willing to accept. Most people would support this if that clause was removed. And I mentioned the UNSC because they put specifics in that were easily sidestepped. But what is a "basic grounding"? To me it might be fluency but to someone else it might be "hello" "goodbye" "hand over your money".

It only forces Customs & Excise and immigration officers to learn English, however, I admit I could be more specific as to what they would require to know...

If a proper definition of the basic requirements is included, and I think they are adequate, I will vote for this.

No.

No.


At least those of us who are opposing this are giving him the courtesy of a reason so that he can fix them. You should do the same.

Plus, English IS the only means of communicating in the UN, and is the most widely spoken language in NS.
OOC: Is it? Maybe Vergniaud is reading/hearing this in Paristani thanks to the UN's wondrous translating system.

Originally Posted by Cobdenia
Plus, English IS the only means of communicating in the UN, and is the most widely spoken language in NS.
OOC: Is it? Maybe Vergniaud is reading/hearing this in Paristani thanks to the UN's wondrous translating system.
OOC: If the forum was in Portugese or Thai, most of us wouldn't be here. Obviously, we use English here because it's the one language that all of us can speak well enough to communicate with each other. That's not to say that all of our nations speak English. It's also not to say that our governments are going to take kindly to the idea of forcing immigration officials and border guards to learn English, a language that until recently many of them had never heard of. Surely there is some way of doing this without making us acknowledge IC that English is the de facto language of NS.

OOC: If the forum was in Portugese or Thai, most of us wouldn't be here. Obviously, we use English here because it's the one language that all of us can speak well enough to communicate with each other. That's not to say that all of our nations speak English. It's also not to say that our governments are going to take kindly to the idea of forcing immigration officials and border guards to learn English, a language that until recently many of them had never heard of. Surely there is some way of doing this without making us acknowledge IC that English is the de facto language of NS.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I remember something in the FAQ (or perhaps somewhere else) that does say that English is the "official" language, so to speak, of NS.

The United Nations,

NOTING the potential security risks arising from being unable to accurately assess those entering and leaving a nation,

FURTHER NOTING that such a potential security risk may be exacerbated by the inability of relevant officials to be unable to understand all the information on a foreign passport, and to guarantee it's authenticity,

1. DEFINES a Passport as a travel document by the nation of which the person is a citizen, identifying the bearer as a national of that country,

2. MANDATES that all citizens carry a Passport issued by a relevant nation in which they hold citizenship or other citizen status, when travelling abroad, except where deemed unnecessary through the existence of bilateral and multilateral border control agreement,

3. PERMITS issuing nations to allow children under the age of majority, or a specific age that is lower than that of the age of majority, in the issuing country to travel on the passport of one or both of their parents, as necessary under national law

4. MANDATES that a Passport must have the following minimum information in English and all languages recognised by the issuing state:
a) Name, date of birth, gender, place of birth, nationality, citizenship status, height and distinguishing features of the holder;
b) A facial photograph or other accurate portrait of the holder’s face measuring at least 35mm by 45mm;
c) A unique passport number in both Arabic numerals, and, should letters be used, Roman lettering along with any numeral and lettering system used in the issuing state;
d) Passport type;
e) Protections against the counterfeiting of Passports;
f) Adequate space for visas, and entry and exit stamps;
g) The names and dates of births of children listed on a parent's passport (if applicable)

5. AFFIRMS that the passport entitles the holder to any of the Consular services available from their nation's Embassies, Consulates, Consulates-General and Legations as they may require,

6. ENSHRINES the right for nationals of one nation, carrying a passport that identifies them a national of said nation, who is held under arrest or detained in gaol either prior to or following prosecution, or pending execution or other such punishment, in a foreign nation to have visitations made by a consul of said national's nation, or another nation with bilateral or multilateral agreements in place in cases where there is no diplomatic or consular presence of the national's nation, to their place of imprisonment or detention and access to relevant legal information, and to ensure that the detained national is treated well,

8. AFFIRMS that any person, who holds citizenship in a nation within the United Nations, carrying a valid passport and visa cannot be denied entry to a nation, except where the security of that nation is at stake or for reasons of medical quarentine,

9. CALLS UPON all nations to recognise the passports of citizens from nations within the United Nations,

10. MANDATES that all immigration and other relevant officials have sufficient knowledge of the English Language to be able to understand the information provided in passports under Article 4.,

11. MANDATES the publication of all Passport designs (including information about counterfeit protections), to be made available to all relevent officials, including but not limited to: immigration officials, customs and excise officers, security personnel, police constables, and check in staff.

One or two alterations, to do with prohibiting entrance due to medical quarentine and going into detail in article 10.

Surely there is some way of doing this without making us acknowledge IC that English is the de facto language of NS.
Nobody, so far, has thought of any

We mostly agree with this proposal but we understand the concerns about clauses 4 (and 10).

And we would like to propose an alternative
Why not let every nation the right to choose their passport language, while asking every nation, with a possible 2-3 years delay if needed, to include on the passport a "Two-Dimensional Barcode'" including every needed information in english, the 5 other most spoken language in the world and any other languague wanted by the national authority.

http://www.barcodebootcamp.com/images/pdf417.gif

http://www.barcodebootcamp.com/images/datamatrix.gif

http://www.barcodebootcamp.com/images/intacta.gif

http://www.barcodebootcamp.com/images/azteccode.gif

How is a past tech nation supposed to read a two dimensional barcode?

How is a past tech nation supposed to read a two dimensional barcode?

They can import the technology or the materials, "two dimensional barcode" is a cheap technology, almost the same than one dimensional barcode used in supermarket.
They will just need some barcode reader in aiports and border crossing, and some computers there and in passport administrations.

I really think it's better to ask some few nations to introduce some useful and peaceful technology than to impose a language in 30 000 nations, don't you?

Furthermore you mention nation past tech nation without barcode, but then what about past tech nations without photography you require in 4b?;)

b) A facial photograph or other accurate portrait of the holder’s face measuring at least 35mm by 45mm;



But if you really don't like it as the informations required on passport are few, may i suggest:

4. MANDATES that a Passport must have the following minimum information in English, in the 5 others main spoken languages in the world and in all languages recognised by the issuing state:

4. MANDATES that a Passport must have the following minimum information in English, in the 5 others main spoken languages in the world and in all languages recognised by the issuing state:

We recognise over 500 tribal languages...

Let's stick to English.

We recognise over 500 tribal languages...

Let's stick to English.


"and in all languages recognised by the issuing state"

is the text from cobdenia, but i'm pretty sure he mean:

""and in all languages desired by the issuing state"

Ambassador Mizugi-Nero's suggestions do not, I'm afraid, meet with our favour.

MV

Ambassador Mizugi-Nero's suggestions do not, I'm afraid, meet with our favour.

MV


Kasigi Nero:)

Do you disagree with one or both of our 2 suggestions?:
-the Two-Dimensional Barcode', or
-the informations written in 5 languages

About Two-Dimensional Barcode: i want to say that's it's not a RFID chip (as the RL US now require to enter US territory)
With Two-Dimensional Barcode you need a physical contact to read the information, with RFID you don't need.
Furthermore, i never mentionned biometric information to be included in the barcode.
Finnaly Two-Dimensional Barcode can simplify the tasks of borders administrations.

Also abouut clause [9]:
How this proposal deal with nation as RL US who ask non-resident for RFID-biometric passport?
It's why i think the Two-Dimensional Barcode is a good compromise

And anyway, with or without barcode, maybe we should ask nations to protect the data collected and prevent them to sell them; or release them apart to a national legal authority.

On another topic, maybe the information mentionned in clause -4-, need to be "typed"

Do you disagree with one or both of our 2 suggestions?:
-the Two-Dimensional Barcode', or
-the informations written in 5 languages
I can't speak for Ecopoeia, but I like the barcode idea. The technology for producing and reading the barcodes is fairly simple and well known.

OOC: Apologies about the name. Er, can't be arsed to write an IC response - basically, barcoding looks too expensive for Eco, while the languages solution only seems to make things more complicated. I admit I don't have a solution to either issue.

One item that is of concern to Nucleardom is the start up cost of a Passport processing system on poorer states, and the damage we may do to their finanical situation by mandating the issuance of passports. Would it not be better to recognize the right of nations to not allow someone without a passport (as defined within this resolution) into their country? This would make the issuance of passports optional for some nations, but at the expense that their citizens would not be allowed to travel abroad.

One item that is of concern to Nucleardom is the start up cost of a Passport processing system on poorer states, and the damage we may do to their finanical situation by mandating the issuance of passports. Would it not be better to recognize the right of nations to not allow someone without a passport (as defined within this resolution) into their country? This would make the issuance of passports optional for some nations, but at the expense that their citizens would not be allowed to travel abroad.

There's a draft proposal on emigration rights, with which such a clause might conflict, also under discussion...

There's a draft proposal on emigration rights, with which such a clause might conflict, also under discussion...

I thought that proposal took away a nations right to restrict its own citizens from leaving. My suggestion would give a nation the right to restrict someone from entering without the proper identification. (A right that I believe is incidentally recognized in the emigration proposal.) I don't think that this is a conflict, since there are any number of non NSUN states that someone could emigrate too without a passport with the passage of both resolutions.

OOC: Apologies about the name. Er, can't be arsed to write an IC response -

no pb:)

basically, barcoding looks too expensive for Eco, while the languages solution only seems to make things more complicated. I admit I don't have a solution to either issue.

In fact, the barcode is also a solution to reduce the cost of border administrations, borders officials will have only to read the informations with a barcode reader, and the information will be then checked and recorded easilyand without mistakes, it's called productivity;)

Furthermore, i took the example of nations, as US in RL, who deliver visa at ariport only to non-resident with passport with a RFID chip inside including cripted biometric information (digital pictures for facial recognition, and soon digital Fingerprint), I have no opinion about this, but this resolution can eventualy mandate these nations to accept also passport with 2d barcode.

What i propose is also a compromize to avoid RFID-biometric passport rule as it will become in 2006 in real world

In fact, the barcode is also a solution to reduce the cost of border administrations, borders officials will have only to read the informations with a barcode reader, and the information will be then checked and recorded easilyand without mistakes, it's called productivity;)

Unless the immigration center does not have electricity, in which case a barcode reader wouldn't work.

Unless the immigration center does not have electricity, in which case a barcode reader wouldn't work.

Unless the immigration center does not have photography, in which case a facial photograph wouldn't work.;)

Unless the immigration center does not have photography, in which case a facial photograph wouldn't work.;)

Which is probably why the proposal contains the phrase 'or other accurate portrait'.

Which is probably why the proposal contains the phrase 'or other accurate portrait'.


You right, but LAE will, unless mandated by the UN, not grant any VISA to non-resident without a facial photography on their passport, and i guess we will not be the only nation to do that.

Anyway, what about nations without printing or even paper
Will Clay tablet passport or papyrus passport will be allowed
How can you put a visa on a clay tablet?:p

LAE will vote against this proposal if it doesn't requires passport to include a facial photography. I hope it won't do that because i like very much this proposal.


I think that the global food act was important and that international trade is important, if nation are past tech, it's easy for them to acquire cheap useful and peaceful technology, many nations as LAE will be pretty happy to help.

OOC: Apologies about the name. Er, can't be arsed to write an IC response - basically, barcoding looks too expensive for EcoEh. Barcodes are stunningly cheap. They use very basic technology both in creation and reading. The software and hardware needed are pretty basic as well.

A standard 1D barcode (UPC) can literaly be made with a piece of paper and a pen, and doesn't take much more to read. Over the past year I've read countless articles in 2600 dealing with them, as well as using spare parts to build your own reader and printer at home. Very, very basic stuff.

I'm not as familiar with the 2D, but they shouldn't be much more complicated to generate (a simple laser printer should manage), but are decidedly more difficult to forge or modify (something painfully easy to do with UPCs). I would imagine that any nation able to print out passports could also print out the barcodes. In all honesty, a government probably spends more on toilet paper than such a system would cost.

As for the languages encoded, that's largely unnecessary. If the barcode only encoded basic information (name, sex, height, weight, nationality, etc), the language largely wouldn't matter provided you standardized the software. Who cares if it says 'name' or 'naam' or 'όνομα' or 'имя', as long as the first field was always the persons name? The name wouldn't need to be translated, you'd just need to see if the characters matched. Things like height and weight are numbers, which translate easily.

If you don't want to standardize the language, putting key information in a standardized order in the code will allow for verification, and will minimize language problems.

As for the languages encoded, that's largely unnecessary. If the barcode only encoded basic information (name, sex, height, weight, nationality, etc), the language largely wouldn't matter provided you standardized the software. Who cares if it says 'name' or 'naam' or 'όνομα' or 'имя', as long as the first field was always the persons name? The name wouldn't need to be translated, you'd just need to see if the characters matched. Things like height and weight are numbers, which translate easily.

You right about the fields.

Maybe, just a suggestion, i'm not sure yet, it could be great just to ask the information to be then included in the 2D barcode in language desired by the nation
+ either in "latin alphabet" or in "International Phonetic Alphabet" in order communication between travellers and borders official to be more easy

If a traveller from China, Kerala, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Japan, Pakistan ... is coming to the US for example, it can be difficult to the US border offficial to spell the travellers name in chinese ... characters... Mr ???


http://test256.free.fr/IPA.jpg
from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

Also from Wikipedia:
Exemple:
International Phonetic Alphabet correspondence for English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet_for_English

Consonants:

* /p/: pit
* /b/: bit
* /t/: tin
* /d/: din
* /k/: cut
* /g/: gut
* /tʃ/: cheap
* /dʒ/: jeep
* /m/: map
* /n/: nap
* /ŋ/: bang
* /f/: fat
* /v/: vat



* /θ/: thin
* /ð/: then
* /s/: sap
* /z/: zap
* /ʃ/: she
* /ʒ/: measure
* /x/: loch, Chanukah (some speakers of some English varieties only, often replaced by /h/ in onset position and /k/ in coda position)
* /h/: ham
* /ʍ/: whine (Also written /hw/, it occurs in only those English dialects that distinguish between pairs like whine/wine and which/witch.)
* /w/: we
* /ɹ/: run (Frequently written /r/ in broad transcription of English.)
* /j/: yes
* /l/: left

Vowels:

* /ɪ/: bid
* /ʊ/: good
* /ɛ/: bed
* /ʌ/: bud
* /æ/: bat
* /ɒ/: pot



* /iː/: bead
* /uː/: booed
* /ɜː/: bird
* /ɔː/: bought, board

You right about the fields.
Maybe, just a suggestion, i'm not sure yet, it could be great just to ask the information to be then included in the 2D barcode in language desired by the nation
+ either in "latin alphabet" or in "International Phonetic Alphabet" in order communication between travellers and borders official to be more easy

Wouldn't that just make things more confusing? Then both people (the travelers and the border officials), would have to learn an entirely new language. Plus IPA is just pronounciation, not actual spellings. Why isn't the information included on the barcode in the native spelling, and then you just scan it; no translation required.

Wouldn't that just make things more confusing? Then both people (the travelers and the border officials), would have to learn an entirely new language. Plus IPA is just pronounciation, not actual spellings. Why isn't the information included on the barcode in the native spelling, and then you just scan it; no translation required.


I'am not sure about my last suggestion, I just wanted to open the debate
The intention is just to allow border officials to say hello Mr/Ms *****, when the language of the traveller passport doesn't use the same alphabet or use a different system of writings than in the visited nation.
Maybe this can only be encouraged.
The other possibility i mentionned was to use the latin alphabet.

From wiikipedia, an interesting map showing the differents systems of writting in the world:

http://test256.free.fr/WritingSystemsoftheWorld.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/WritingSystemsoftheWorld3.png

In fact the phonetic language is not needed to be included in the 2D barcode.
the software can easily translate in phonetic language (it will not be perfect, but good enough)

We can even imagine than the software (opensource one) include a previously recorded voice that can say every sound from every language. It will not be hard to do it.
Then if the border official want to know how to say the name of the visitor, he/she have just to click on the play button in the computer, and then will have only to repeat.

At the end of the day, what we need is for passports to be able to be read in all nations. Cultural imperialism aside for a moment, the business of the United Nations is conducted predominantly in English, which is not considered the primary language of Krioval. Yet we adapt to the circumstances at hand. Thus, Krioval feels that the inclusion of English, or of several major languages, in addition to one's native language on a passport is a reasonable thing to do. If for nothing else, it must be easier to translate from a widely spoken language to a more localized one than between two local languages.

Yoshi Takahara
Director, International Affairs
Empire of Krioval


OOC: Not to mention the nightmares with various technological "workarounds" - Krioval is capable of doing many things that, say, Cobdenia, is unable to do.

At the end of the day, what we need is for passports to be able to be read in all nations. Cultural imperialism aside for a moment, the business of the United Nations is conducted predominantly in English, which is not considered the primary language of Krioval. Yet we adapt to the circumstances at hand. Thus, Krioval feels that the inclusion of English, or of several major languages, in addition to one's native language on a passport is a reasonable thing to do. If for nothing else, it must be easier to translate from a widely spoken language to a more localized one than between two local languages.

Yoshi Takahara
Director, International Affairs
Empire of Krioval


OOC: Not to mention the nightmares with various technological "workarounds" - Krioval is capable of doing many things that, say, Cobdenia, is unable to do.


In fact we took the wrong direction, in RL most if not all passport have information written in "latin letters" in addition to national systems of writting.
Maybe it could be great to replace "english" in Cobdenia proposal by "latin letters" (english could then be kept for the name of the fields).

Here is an example find with google search image:
http://www.temworld.com/TEM/Chinese/procedure/passport.jpg

Anyway, i think it could be great to add also the 2D barcode for security and productivity reasons; and also to make facial photography mandatory.

OOC: That appears to be a Chinese passport, with Chinese and English writing. Thus, Cobdenia's use of "English" would simply reflect the current RL state of affairs

OOC: That appears to be a Chinese passport, with Chinese and English writing. Thus, Cobdenia's use of "English" would simply reflect the current RL state of affairs

Yes you right, I will not oppose the english use, just ask for a codbar and facial photography.

Ok after some research:
The part at the bottom of the passport is the MRZ (machine readable zone), the 2D codbar I proposed have the same function.

I have no pb about MRZ instead of 2D codbar.
The only thing is that the MRZ don't include adress, place of birth or place of issue (because it can contain only very few data)
http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/numbers/mrp.html

The problem with the code bar thingy and facial photography is still the problems of past tech nations. While a 1930's nation may be able to do photographs, they wouldn't be able to do bar codes at all (no microchips); an 1700's nation wouldn't even be able to do photographs. Saying that you could give such a nation the technology is silly; it's tantamount to forcing every nation in the UN to become modern tech. Plus the fact that you wouldn't just give them bar code readers, for a 1700's nation you'd have to give them electricity as well...

The problem with the code bar thingy and facial photography is still the problems of past tech nations. While a 1930's nation may be able to do photographs, they wouldn't be able to do bar codes at all (no microchips); an 1700's nation wouldn't even be able to do photographs. Saying that you could give such a nation the technology is silly; it's tantamount to forcing every nation in the UN to become modern tech. Plus the fact that you wouldn't just give them bar code readers, for a 1700's nation you'd have to give them electricity as well...

If I follow your logic, a 1400 nation wouldn't be able to have printed passport, and a -2000 nation will have only clay tablet passport.

International trade exist, and every nation will be able to do that, as this techno is very cheap, it's used in thousand of supermarkets in the world. Some nations may need some time delay of course.

LAE administration try hard to be efficient and productive and even if we are far from being a police state we have a certain standard of security.
Not mandating facial photography is a dangerous security hole.

Unless mandated by the UN, LAE don't allow visitor without facial photography on their passport (unless they come from another nation in the Parallel Pacific region), and visitor with no MRZ on their passport are not be able to pass at LAE's international airports without a visa previously obtained in embasy or consulate.
LAE will almost not accept passport without optical zone in few years.


Furthermore, some nation (as US in RL) now ask for a RFID-biometric passport
to pass without a visa previously obtained in embasy or consulate.
(personnaly i have no opinion about RFID-biometric passport, and anyway i don't favour it in NS)

As the title of this proposal states, we need some harmonisation, and maybe also a little bit of security.

PS: in a previous post, I also mentionned that it could be nice to add something about the privacy of data collected by borders officials, i really think it's important

If I follow your logic, a 1400 nation wouldn't be able to have printed passport, and a -2000 nation will have only clay tablet passport

Yes; nothing wrong with a handwritten passport or a clay tablet passport, as long as it abides by the rules. Nothing in the text says it has to be printed.

Not mandating facial photography is a dangerous security hole

It mandates a photograph or an accurate potrait. Until about the 1970's is wasn't uncommon to find passports with sketches of the person instead of photographs

As the title of this proposal states, we need some harmonisation, and maybe also a little bit of security.
There's nothing stopping you from introducing a technologically advanced visa, containing all the information and biometrics and Barcodes and whatever, but I'm not going to force MT on the UN. A visa doesn't have to be just a stamp; in fact American visas are practically the same as the back page of a passport:

http://www.poeff.de/Deutsch/Zukunft/Visa-P.jpg

To tell the truth, this seems like some more unnecessary beuracracy (sp?). If people want passports than they can get them and if they don't, they don't need to bother.

Yes; nothing wrong with a handwritten passport or a clay tablet passport, as long as it abides by the rules. Nothing in the text says it has to be printed.

How our official are supposed to put visa on clay tablet?
Anyway don't accept it, for security reasons



It mandates a photograph or an accurate potrait. Until about the 1970's is wasn't uncommon to find passports with sketches of the person instead of photographs


Yes and even before there was no passport, it's not because it was common 30 years ago, than nothing more useful exist nowadays.

There's nothing stopping you from introducing a technologically advanced visa, containing all the information and biometrics and Barcodes and whatever,

Thanks, but we visitors come from others nations, and we are concerned by our security and by the efficiency of our administration, this proposal is a great opportunity for harmonisation, efficiency and security.


but I'm not going to force MT on the UN

The global food act passed few weeks ago, and i'm afraid that many food need refrigerator or freezer.
Why so many nation have a pb about introducing barcode or photography in past tech nations when there is absolutly no pb for anyone about cars, refrigerator or freezer?

in fact American visas are practically the same as the back page of a passport:

http://test256.free.fr/Visa-P.jpg

yes you can see on the visa, the MRZ (machine readable zone / optical zone), it's an international standard for VIsa, passport and many national ID

http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/numbers/mrp.html

In my nation (as most of RL nations) we have a MRZ on passport, we have one inour national ID, there was one on my chinese visa, when i went there also.

So i think it can be great to have a simlar MRZ in NS.
I just proposed 2D barcode to have something different, more fun, and which can contain more data.

Yes but it's not practical for NS passports because not every nation has machines. However, if your nation has machines, you can put an MRZ on your visas, if your so worried about it...

Hold on. Is there anything in this proposal to stop nations having extra requirements? Couldn't L&E Customs insist on MRZs on their passports, still?

Yes but it's not practical for NS passports because not every nation has machines. However, if your nation has machines, you can put an MRZ on your visas, if your so worried about it...

These machine are no more expensive than those used in thousands and thousands of supermarket and others stores, it's pretty cheap, and i always proposed some delay.

It doesn't matter how expensive they are, if a country is PT and has no electricity, the things are useless. And they wont be able to print the information so it is machine readable in other countries (such as in hand written passports).

WaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mummy, they're not listening to me!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111!!!!!!!!1 :(

It doesn't matter how expensive they are, if a country is PT and has no electricity, the things are useless. And they wont be able to print the information so it is machine readable in other countries (such as in hand written passports).

Cobdenia, you never ansered me about visa on clay tablet, about freezer and refrigerator in the Global food act, about cars in teruchev's proposal which seems to deter noone. Most cars are batteries inside = electricity.

I mentionned a delay, nations will just have to get some equipments in passports delivery administrations, and if they want to at borders crossing and airports, this is not huge, and as international trade is not banned in the UN they will be able to get everything easily, they can install some solar panel, wind power .....

I also mentionned security, efficiency reasons.

Anyway, if you are so afraid by electricity while not being afraid by cars, car radio, DVD players, GPS in cars, not afraid by freezer and refrigirators, you can always strongly urges nations to add the MRZ, but it will be a lost opportunity.

About photography, i really hope you will mandate it.

Hold on. Is there anything in this proposal to stop nations having extra requirements? Couldn't L&E Customs insist on MRZs on their passports, still?

Cobdenia's Visa Act:


2. AFFIRMS the rights of nations to set their own migration policies,


6. AFFIRMS that nations may impose restrictions as to who are entitled to visas, except when such restriction violate the United Nations' antidescrimination resolutions,

As i understand it, it seems to me that with or withour Cobdenia's Visa Act, LAE will be able to refuse to give a visa to a visitor who don't have photography on their passport

And also nations will be able to refuse to give a visa to a visitor who don't have a RFID-biometric passport (even if RFID tech is great for many stuff, LAE prefer not to put a RFID chip in passport as it can be read without contact)

OOC:

Advanced technology is going to get a person through Krioval's borders more quickly due to better security protocols. Thus, holography combined with biometrics on the passport will typically allow a person to clear customs in a few minutes. Barcodes and facial photography might mean a slight delay, but not more than, say, fifteen minutes. A sketch is going to require contacting the sponsoring government, and if contact is impossible, denying the passport holder from entering Krioval.

Reasons are simple enough. It is far more likely that someone is going to fake a low-tech passport to evade border security than to arrive unannounced from a pre-modern tech nation. While this may appear to be an argument against the proposal, I feel that it actually supports it. Make a minimum level of information available on all passports so that they can actually be read by border control officers, and leave the details to individual nations. This means that Krioval will continue to issue incredibly detailed passports along with lower-tech equivalents to allow entry into nations that may not believe in the integrity of holography and biometric data, or may be unable to read the information encoded therein.

Ultimately, I see the goal of the proposal to be making border crossing easier by mandating that nations create documentation that can be easily understood by other nations. Cobdenia, please correct me if I am totally off base on this one.

As i understand it, it seems to me that with or withour Cobdenia's Visa Act, LAE will be able to refuse to give a visa to a visitor who don't have photography on their passport

And also nations will be able to refuse to give a visa to a visitor who don't have a RFID-biometric passport (even if RFID tech is great for many stuff, LAE prefer not to put a RFID chip in passport as it can be read without contact)

Right! So you don't need him to force all nations to adopt photography, because you can still force all entrants to have photographs.

It doesn't matter how expensive they are, if a country is PT and has no electricity, the things are useless. And they wont be able to print the information so it is machine readable in other countries (such as in hand written passports).Enough DLE-esque pendantry.

UN Proposals cannot work for the infinite permutations possible in the NS world, therefore they must assume a certain technological base (and ceiling). The MRZ requires no advanced technology and any nation with 15th century technology is capable of creating the MRZ. Any nation with 19th century technology can manage photographs. This is more than reasonable.

Yes, a nation set in 2000 BC isn't going to be able to do this, and a nation in 35000 AD could just teleport in. Neither matters. This is rapidly becoming desperate attempts to grasp onto any possible straw to oppose a Proposal.

Right! So you don't need him to force all nations to adopt photography, because you can still force all entrants to have photographs.

LAE welcome most people in the world in our archipelago. We just have some few legitime security concerns, not huge ones, we only requires photography and that beholder of passport without MRZ are required to ask to some LAE officials before their trip, nothing special, no RFID or biometry required.

But we are drafting an harmonisation resolution here, it's why i proposed a low cost, cost efficiency, and moderate security solution, and tThe only argument so far aginst it is "past tech nations". And I don't understand why the nations using this argument see no pb to FORCE all nation to accept freezer, refrigirator, cars, including batteries, car radio, DVD player, GPS and therefore electricity and have only a pb with MRZ and photography:confused:

As I've already explained, no nation is forced to buy freezers; they can let their food rot. They don't have to buy new batteries for their cars; they can let them rust. Yours is a different suggestion entirely.

However, as per the post previous to yours, I drop my objection on tech basis. We, too, only accept those with photographs; however, if other countries don't wish to, then I don't see it as our mandate to force them to.

As I've already explained, no nation is forced to buy freezers; they can let their food rot. They don't have to buy new batteries for their cars; they can let them rust. Yours is a different suggestion entirely.


What i would like to emphasize is that free trade resolution, as the food one or the car one, is not for government, as obviously Government can import what they want with or without resolutions, they don't need UN resolution if they want to import cars.

IT's for PEOPLE. So a past tech nation without car, will not be anymore past tech, as soon as one person (a LAE diplomat by example) import a car. It's why free trade resolution FORCE past tech nation, not to be past tech anymore, and I see no pb with that, as it respect the rules.

Enough DLE-esque pendantry.

UN Proposals cannot work for the infinite permutations possible in the NS world, therefore they must assume a certain technological base (and ceiling). The MRZ requires no advanced technology and any nation with 15th century technology is capable of creating the MRZ. Any nation with 19th century technology can manage photographs. This is more than reasonable.

Yes, a nation set in 2000 BC isn't going to be able to do this, and a nation in 35000 AD could just teleport in. Neither matters. This is rapidly becoming desperate attempts to grasp onto any possible straw to oppose a Proposal.

I disagree; mandating MRZ's and photographs are unneccessary and would only serve to alienate PT nations. Why would a sketch portrait of the person be less secure than a photo? Why would an MRZ be more secure than entering the information into a ledger? The only reason why an MRZ exists is to make life easier for immigration officials; it has no added security benefits. Same with photo's; it's just easier and cheaper then sketches. And if you do want all the people to have a photograph and a MRZ, just put it on your visa's.

IT's for PEOPLE. So a past tech nation without car, will not be anymore past tech, as soon as one person (a LAE diplomat by example) import a car. It's why free trade resolution FORCE past tech nation, not to be past tech anymore, and I see no pb with that, as it respect the rules.
But trade requires demand. A PT nation without electricity isn't going to import fridges as they can't use them; a nation without petrol stations isn't going to import cars. PT nations won't demand MT stuff: no demand=no trade

Cobdenia, please correct me if I am totally off base on this one.
No, you're pretty much correct.

I disagree; mandating MRZ's and photographs are unneccessary and would only serve to alienate PT nations.Bull. Photography has been around since the mid 1800's and the printing press since the mid 1400s. Trying to claim this alienates past tech nations is nonsense.

Why would a sketch portrait of the person be less secure than a photo?Do you honestly need to ask this?

Why would an MRZ be more secure than entering the information into a ledger?Ah. So PTNationA is supposed to have a giant book with the information of all 6 billion of my citizens in case one pops in. Oh yes, that's so much easier than printing a string of characters on a passport.

The only reason why an MRZ exists is to make life easier for immigration officials; it has no added security benefits.If the information is encoded, it stops weak attempts at forgery. It's also a way to give important information in a standardized fashion. My driver's license number seems like a random number of characters, but it encodes my first name, my last name, and my date of birth, all in a 12 character string.

PT nations won't demand MT stuff: no demand=no tradeOnly if they're utterly isolated from MT nations. Otherwise, people will come back and start wanting modern toys ("Screw this horse, I want a hover car!")

OOC and IC:
Bull. Photography has been around since the mid 1800's and the printing press since the mid 1400s. Trying to claim this alienates past tech nations is nonsense.
You contradict yourself in this sentence....

Do you honestly need to ask this?

All a photograph is is an accurate image of the owner that allows the immigration official to be certain that the passpot is being held by the owner. Why is that any different from a portrait that does the same?

So PTNationA is supposed to have a giant book with the information of all 6 billion of my citizens in case one pops in.
No, they would just need the information of those that did arrive in the country, not those who haven't yet. Do you think the UK has the information of every US passport holder in their machines? They only have those who have come to the UK. And anyway, a past tech nation would need to use ledgers anyway, as they would have no computers. Even in the real world, every country keeps solid records; why do you think you need to fill in landing cards?

If the information is encoded, it stops weak attempts at forgery.
Indeed, and there is nothing in this resolution that prohibits you to use such a system on your own passport; however I am not going to mandate it. The proposal says that there must be counterfiet protections, and this could be one of them, but I don't feel it is appropriate to mandate a standardised form of counterfeit protection on the UN. If you want everyone who comes into your country to have encoded information in there passports, then stick it on your visas, like the US, UK, Russia and most western nations do. Or don't issue them visas in the first place.

Only if they're utterly isolated from MT nations. Otherwise, people will come back and start wanting modern toys
But if they can't use the modern toys in their own country, there is no demand

You contradict yourself in this sentence....Ah. I wasn't aware that 1455 was "modern". You use interesting definitions.

All a photograph is is an accurate image of the owner that allows the immigration official to be certain that the passpot is being held by the owner. Why is that any different from a portrait that does the same?If you are honestly unable to understand the difference between a photograph and a drawing, well... then I see no reason to continue this debate.

OOC: Hack's assuaged my concerns regarding barcoding. English... meh, we'll see how I go with this. I'm not sure if it's worth making the effort to oppose it.

Um, Hack... are you having a bad day? I don't think it's necessary to to be quite so snippy, especially when you haven't made it clear whether or not you're arguing from your position as a moderator or simply as a player (or both).

The only reason why an MRZ exists is to make life easier for immigration officials

Cobdenia, there are others reasons:
-it will decrease errors, as officials will not have to write (in particular in a foreign language),
-it can faster border process not only for oficials but for travellers
-Travellers will be more able to get the visa dircetly at the aiport/border instead of having to go at the nation embassy/consulate before
-its a security solution, as to have a counterfait passport will requires to do an acurate MRZ; every nation will be able to include their own data verification system in the MRZ, in the same manner as nations do it in RL with the international MRZ I showed you on the pic
-It will reduce cost, as the equipments (the same as in a supermarket) are pretty cheap and will increase productivity
-It's an harmonisation suggestion, of course LAE will be anyway able to include it on LAE passport anyway, but LAE is a nation proud to be part of the International community, and welcome people from all over the world, it's why we debate for a little harmonisation about Passport

Whitout photography, MRZ and typed informations, i feel this resolution encourages nations to keep uneffective, costly, unsecure, time consuminng and unharmonized passport system, I'm sad because otherwise I really think this is a great idea.

PS: i also mentionned, some privacy for data collected by borders officials (not to sell data and diclose them only to judicial or security administration)
But maybe this will be better to suggest it in your Visa proposal:)

But trade requires demand. A PT nation without electricity isn't going to import fridges as they can't use them; a nation without petrol stations isn't going to import cars. PT nations won't demand MT stuff: no demand=no trade


LAE cars companies will bring cars and equipments, including eqipments to power them, electricity by example

As every nations are mandated by the Global Fodd act, they cannot stop LAE food companies to bring food in Freezer and some Power generating unit to use them, or solar panel or wind power.

When free trade is MANDATED in a nation (and once again LAE support Free trade) then this nation is part of a broader market and not past tech anymore.

But it only standardises the minimums; it would be unfair on many nations to force them into a system that may be out of their technological reach, or economic: whilst it may be cheap, you have to remember that supermarkets are in the private sector; the money would have to come from the treasury, leading to tax rises or diversion of funds from other sectors such as education, which would be far more important. Plus the cost of the system is not limited to the bar code scanners, you'd need a centralised database (which most certainly are not cheap; look at the mounting costs of the UK's experimental ID card system), you'd need to train the staff in the use of them, and for some nations you'd need an electricity generator. The resolution insists on counterfeit protection and shared information of counterfeit protection, I feel that is enough.

As for photo's vs portraits, it insists on accurate potraits. Do you really think this is any worse than a photograph?:

http://history.library.ucsf.edu/imagelib/brunn_portrait.gif

But it only standardises the minimums; it would be unfair on many nations to force them into a system that may be out of their technological reach, or economic: whilst it may be cheap, you have to remember that supermarkets are in the private sector; the money would have to come from the treasury, leading to tax rises or diversion of funds from other sectors such as education, which would be far more important. Plus the cost of the system is not limited to the bar code scanners, you'd need a centralised database (which most certainly are not cheap; look at the mounting costs of the UK's experimental ID card system), you'd need to train the staff in the use of them, and for some nations you'd need an electricity generator. The resolution insists on counterfeit protection and shared information of counterfeit protection, I feel that is enough.

As for photo's vs portraits, it insists on accurate potraits. Do you really think this is any worse than a photograph?:

http://history.library.ucsf.edu/imagelib/brunn_portrait.gif


If you look at it by 35mm by 45mm, you will not have the same sensation

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:CrfxfEGyGuIJ:history.library.ucsf.edu/imagelib/portrait_sproul.jpg

About 35 by 45; not much difference to a photo the same size

Incidently, here is an image of a line drawing used on an old passport:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/media/image/1917/Passport.jpg

OOC: Mandating extra levels of technology seems unnecessary to me. IF nations like L&E want to insist on more stringent requirements, fine. There's no need to universalise these requirements though.

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:CrfxfEGyGuIJ:history.library.ucsf.edu/imagelib/portrait_sproul.jpg

About 35 by 45; not much difference to a photo the same size

Incidently, here is an image of a line drawing used on an old passport:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/media/image/1917/Passport.jpg

It's why maybe it could be great to have "accurate photopgraphy", and even "accurate color photography" will be even better

This example is I hope also a great example for "Typed informations" and even MRZ, because your proposal encourages this

OOC: Mandating extra levels of technology seems unnecessary to me. IF nations like L&E want to insist on more stringent requirements, fine. There's no need to universalise these requirements though.

I explained why LAE requiremenst are pretty soft, and also you seems to forgot that that RL US mandates RFID-biometric passport in 2006 to grant Visa at airport

It's not because some nations are past tech, that the whole UN have to be past tech, the UN need efficiency, cost saving, some security and credibility.

look at the mounting costs of the UK's experimental ID card system

Most nations use optical zone on passport (even UK), it's the international standard, many use it also on ID and Visas, there are no pb.

I always proposed some delay for nation needing it.

If you don't like the 2D barcode, there are other possibilities, you can use the same MRZ as in RL, I was just trying to be different.

Hang on, I may have a solution...

MANDATES that all nation's implement Machine Readable Zones, printed personal information, and holographic counterfeit devices by 2010,

That way a 1930 nation will have 80 years to comply. I hate putting dates on, but it's the only way aound it...

Hang on, I may have a solution...


Ok, great:), thanks for debating that with me

MANDATES that all nation's implement Machine Readable Zones, printed personal information, and holographic counterfeit devices by 2010,

Ok, thanks:)
Nice trick for your ropleplay, well done;)

Just is it possible to add also the accurate photography in the sentence, please:p

I'd also like to have their religion added, please.

I'd also like to have their religion added, please.

Don't forget their Political Compass score:D

Don't forget their Political Compass score

I wasn't joking.

I wasn't joking.
Me too, i wanted to play with you:)

OOOOPS
i read you too fast
i read:

"I was joking" :p

That looks OK - you want "nations", not "nation's" though. Ecopoeia strongly opposes including religion as a passport field.

Ecopoeia strongly opposes including religion as a passport field.

You're not a theocracy. There are many UN members who are. It is only right their considerations be taken into account.

You're not a theocracy. There are many UN members who are. It is only right their considerations be taken into account.
It doesn't have to be compulsory, surely? We're not mandating the inclusion of any other beliefs.

When it comes to religion, our government does not ask our citizens what they believe when they apply for a passport. If it is so critical to a nation that people be of the "correct" religion, they can post rules to that effect and restrict entry accordingly. Krioval remembers the last time people were forced to carry papers indicating their religion, and we do not wish to bring such times back.

Yoshi Takahara
Director, International Affairs
Empire of Krioval

When it comes to religion, our government does not ask our citizens what they believe when they apply for a passport. If it is so critical to a nation that people be of the "correct" religion, they can post rules to that effect and restrict entry accordingly. Krioval remembers the last time people were forced to carry papers indicating their religion, and we do not wish to bring such times back.

Yoshi Takahara
Director, International Affairs
Empire of Krioval

I suppose you make reference to this:

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Henry_Oertelt_-_An_Unbroken_Ch/German_Yellow_Star/pic8m.jpg

We also don't want this anymore.

If you want to include religion on your passports or visas that's fine (as long as how you use it doesn't clash with UN anti-descrimination legislation); you can have full length nude pictures on them if you want. I'm not going to legislate either, though!

From wiikipedia, an interesting map showing the differents systems of writting in the world:


www.omniglot.com is another interesting site on this theme.

Alright, well, I withdraw my proposal. Interesting to note that now national security has become a politically correct concern, though.

Only if they're utterly isolated from MT nations.

Some of them probably are, apart from their UN delegates.

www.omniglot.com is another interesting site on this theme.

Whooooooo, thanks, a lot for the site, I love it, in particular this page:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/conscripts.htm
I will look if there are some invented writing systems in NS Wiki;)

where i found this:
http://www.omniglot.com/images/langsamples/smp_talisman.gif

Back to RL writting system, my best is the korean one

http://www.omniglot.com/images/langsamples/udhr_korea.gif

I'm a fan of Cyrillic, but partly because it is the only one I can read apart from Latin

www.omniglot.com is another interesting site on this theme.

According to your site, the following is in Gnommish:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/gnommish.htm
http://www.omniglot.com/images/writing/gnommish.gif
http://www.omniglot.com/images/langsamples/smp_gnommish.gif

There is even a English-Gnommish translator, could be useful when meeting one of this nice creatures

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/translate/gnommish/gnommish.htm

A language without semi-colons? Disgracefull...

Right, now that the L&E representative appears to have buggered off, and Hack has mellowed to my PT protestations/I am no longer scared of (he's quite nice, really), I plan on ressurecting this proposal and the other that goes with it:

The United Nations,

NOTING the potential security risks arising from being unable to accurately assess those entering and leaving a nation,

FURTHER NOTING that such a potential security risk may be exacerbated by the inability of relevant officials to be unable to understand all the information on a foreign passport, and to guarantee it's authenticity,

1. DEFINES a Passport as a travel document by the nation of which the person is a citizen, identifying the bearer as a national of that country,

2. MANDATES that all citizens carry a Passport issued by a relevant nation in which they hold citizenship or other citizen status, when travelling abroad, except where deemed unnecessary through the existence of bilateral and multilateral border control agreement,

3. PERMITS issuing nations to allow children under the age of majority, or a specific age that is lower than that of the age of majority, in the issuing country to travel on the passport of one or both of their parents, as necessary under national law

4. FOUNDS the United Nations Commision for Passport Design and Control (UNCPDC)

5. CHARGES the UNCPDC to establish minimum requirements of details to be included into passports, including but not limited to passport numbers, facial representations of the owner, name, date of birth, validity, and anti-forgery features

6. MANDATES that United Nation's Member States abide by the requirements laid down by the UNCPDC

7. AFFIRMS that the passport entitles the holder to any of the Consular services available from their nation's Embassies, Consulates, Consulates-General and Legations as they may require,

8. ENSHRINES the right for nationals of one nation, carrying a passport that identifies them a national of said nation, who is held under arrest or detained in gaol either prior to or following prosecution, or pending execution, deportation or other punishment, in a foreign nation to have visitations made by a consul of said national's nation, or another nation with bilateral or multilateral agreements in place in cases where there is no diplomatic or consular presence of the national's nation, to their place of imprisonment or detention and access to relevant legal information, and to ensure that the detained national is treated well,

9. AFFIRMS that any person, who holds citizenship in a nation within the nited Nations, carrying a valid passport and visa cannot be denied entry to a nation, except where the security of that nation is at stake,

10. CALLS UPON all nations to recognise the passports of citizens from nations within the United Nations,

11. MANDATES the publication of all Passport designs (including information about counterfeit protections), to be made available to all relevent officials, including but not limited to: immigration officials, customs and excise officers, security personnel, constables of the law, and others.

Largely the same; all the bits about English removed, and it's been commitifed which should get round the problems of technology, language etc (it's now the committees problem, not the UN's!)

First the drafting nitpicks: "it's" was used for "its" in the second NOTE, and clause 9 refers to the "nited Nations".

The language of clause 8 is outstandingly horrible, worthy of ourself or the honoured Ambassador of St Edmundan Antarctic at our most tangled. While we gathered the intent of the clause and thoroughly approve of that, would it be possible to reduce the stacking of subclauses to a more manageable level?

Finally, clause 9 introduces something of a hostage to fortune in the "visa". After carefully defining what a passport is, the sudden undefined appearance of a legally binding term muddies the waters a good deal. We would like to see a brief definition, most especially touching on who is responsible for the issuance of visas (the nation being entered, one devoutly hopes), which would render clause 9 less of a direct threat to a nation's right to determine who enters its borders.

Edit: Ah. We observe that the good ambassador has already dealt with this issue in an entirely separate proposal. While this raises small issues of timing, we are sufficiently satisfied to shut up now.

But...but...I like the horridness of clause 8; it makes delegates think. Or draw diagrams!

This was the best I could do. Still wonderfully incomprehisble, though!
8. ENSHRINES the right for nationals, carrying a passport that identifies them a national of said nation, who are held under arrest or detained in gaol either prior to or following prosecution, or pending execution, deportation or other punishment, in a foreign nation to have visitations made by a consul of their nation, or a consul of another nation where bilateral or multilateral agreements are in place in cases where there is no diplomatic or consular presence of the detainee's nation, to their place of imprisonment or detention and for consuls to give the detainee access to relevant legal information, and to ensure that the detainee is treated well,

We suspect the double-negative hereFURTHER NOTING that such a potential security risk may be exacerbated by the inability of relevant officials to be unable to understand all the information on a foreign passport, and to guarantee it's authenticity,imparts the opposite meaning of what was intended?

Although we like diagrams, and note the additional effort on clause 8, we would echo the Gobbannium's request for improved clarity, nay, simplicity, and suggest even fewer dependent clauses and, perhaps, a reliance on multiple sentences within the heavily detailed, if not convoluted, though convolution isn't the worst characteristic of legislation, clause, that being the eighth. ;)

Other than that, we could be convinced to support the effort of the Cobdenians.

Leetha Talone
UN Ambassador
Rubina

*sigh*...all right...

The United Nations,

NOTING the potential security risks arising from being unable to accurately assess those entering and leaving a nation,

FURTHER NOTING that such a potential security risk may be exacerbated by the inability of relevant officials to guarantee the authenticity of a foreign passport,

1. DEFINES a "Passport" as a travel document by the nation of which the person is a citizen, identifying the bearer as a national of that country,

2. MANDATES that all citizens carry a Passport issued by a relevant nation in which they hold citizenship or other citizen status, when travelling abroad, except where deemed unnecessary through the existence of bilateral and multilateral border control agreement,

3. PERMITS issuing nations to allow children under the age of majority, or a specific age that is lower than that of the age of majority, in the issuing country to travel on the passport of one or both of their parents, as necessary under national law

4. FOUNDS the United Nations Commision for Passport Design and Control (UNCPDC)

5. CHARGES the UNCPDC to establish minimum requirements of details to be included into passports, including but not limited to passport numbers, facial representations of the owner, name, date of birth, validity, and anti-forgery features

6. MANDATES that United Nation's Member States abide by the requirements laid down by the UNCPDC

7. AFFIRMS that the passport entitles the holder to any of the Consular services available from their nation's Embassies, Consulates, Consulates-General, High Commissions, Deputy High Commissions, Legations and other diplomatic missions as they may require,

8. ENSHRINES the right of foreign nationals carrying an appropriate passport to be visited by a consul of their nation when detained for legal reasons.
a) allows consuls to give the detainee legal advice, lists of approved barristers and/or solicitors, and guidance on the legal process of the nation in which they are detained.
b) in cases where there is no diplomatic or consular presence of the detainee's nation a consul of another nation may be substituted for a consul of the detainee's nation, where bilateral or multilateral agreements are in place for such a substitution.

9. AFFIRMS that any national of a United Nations member state, carrying a valid passport and visa cannot be denied entry to a nation, except where either the security of that nation is at stake or for reasons of medical quarantine,


10. CALLS UPON all nations to recognise the passports of nationals of United Nations member states,

11. MANDATES the publication of all Passport designs (including information about counterfeit protections), to be made available to all relevant officials, including but not limited to: immigration officials, customs and excise officers, security personnel, and constables of the law.

Some redundant bits removed, elsewhere it's been Cobdenised, and 8 broken down into subclauses

You still have "nited Nations" in clause 9. Other than that, I think we could go for this.

Darren Funkel
Acting Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Founder, Democratic Underground region

If it's nitpick time, this possessive, too (Clause 8):b) in cases where there is no diplomatic or consular presence of the detainee's nation a consul of another nation may be substituted for a consul of the detainee's nation, where bilateral or multilateral agreements are in place for such a substitution.

And this:11. MANDATES the publication of all Passport designs (including information about counterfeit protections), to be made available to all relevAnt officials, including but not limited to: immigration officials, customs and excise officers, security personnel, constables of the law, and others.

Since you've already effectively said "and others" once, you don't need it again.

EDIT: This, as well:

8. ENSHRINES the right for foreign nationals, carrying a passport that identifies them as a national of said nation, who are held under arrest or detained in gaol either prior to or following prosecution, or pending execution, deportation or other punishment, in a foreign nation to have visitations made by a consul of their nation.

Actually, that's still pretty clunky, Cob. How about this:

ENSHRINES the right of foreign nationals carrying an appropriate passport to be visited by a consul of their nation when held under arrest, when in gaol before or after prosecution, or pending execution, deportation or other punishment.

(It could take further cuts, but I'd hate to rob you of "enshrines".)

Would it still do what you want if you removed the detail (arrested, jailed, etc) and just said something like "when detained for legal reasons"?

I was going to suggest condensing the language on Clause 8, but Ardchoille beat me to it. Nicely done, and I would recommend its inclusion in the text.

Just a minor nit, but I see you've used "gaol". While I'm well aware of that particular spelling, it might be an idea to use its more Americanized cousin, jail. Believe me, I'm not trying to drag this into a US/UK pissing contest, but I think that "gaol" might be more likely to confuse the masses; much more so than various o/ou constructions. Or, I suppose, you could completely excise the word, and simply leave it "under arrest or otherwise detained" (which avoids the wankers saying "he's not arrested, and he's being detained in out Detention Room, which isn't a jail; neener-neener").

Luckily, it's buried in the single densest piece of law to ever be written, so it's likely that nobody will notice.

Well, there is that Cobdenian 1930s timewarp. Australian English probably used "gaol" back then, too.

Re clauses #9 & 10: only 'citizens', not other 'nationals' too?

No.

I Conquer.

Altererations made; gaol excised (shame really; I relished the idea of the thicker representatives misreading it as "goal"), clause 8 simplified further, nationals/citizens problem sorted, as are the typos. Hopefully.

Still, it will probably the only piece of legislation to end in the words "constables of the law", which, in my eyes, is a bonus

Much more comprehensible, thank you greatly ambassador. We have one remaining small nitpick in our collective effort towards perfection:

9. AFFIRMS that any national of a United Nations member state, carrying a valid passport and visa cannot be denied entry to a nation, except where the security of that nation is at stake or for reasons of medical quarantine,

The meaning was still clear with "and", since it would take a degree of idiocy to insist that one could only disbar infectious insurgents from entry, but it did jar a little.

I agree. I shall make the necessay alterations.


If you can sing one song from the musical "Chess"

The entire Gobbannaen contingent winces and looks ready to rebel. Given that the permanant undersecretary is a retired rugby player whose years have not diminished her bulk, it's no wonder the Ambassador looks a bit nervous.

"Would it be acceptable if one of our delegation were to undertake the performance in our stead? We regret that one of the defining features of our family is that we are all tone deaf."

If you can sing one song from the musical "Chess"Bangkok, Oriental setting
And the city don't know that the city is getting
The creme de la creme of the chess world in a
Show with everything but Yul Brynner

Time flies -- doesn't seem a minute
Since the Tirolean spa had the chess boys in it
All change -- don't you know that when you
Play at this level there's no ordinary venue

It's Iceland -- or the Philippines -- or Hastings -- or --
or this place!



Is that enough, or do you want the whole song?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Tindalos/UN/Verm.jpg
Vermithrax Pejorative
UN Observer
The Federated Technocratic Oligarchy of the Most Glorious Hack

what about rights of refusal t issue a passport, eg the person's a criminal, or ugly.

Ah, now this is an antidote to the atrocities against good sense committed by the Herconian representatives! Full support.

Benedictions,

For section 7, it's a little redundant to list "Embassies, Consulates, Consulates-General, High Commissions, Deputy High Commissions, Legations and other diplomatic missions as they may require," since you can just say "diplomatic missions" and everyone should know what that means.

We can support the general principle of this and thank the ambassador for this excellent proposal.

Erin Caswell
First Secretary, Permanent Mission of Kelssek to the UN

I like long lists of diplomatic missions, and it may me seem cleverer as I think I've pretty much listed every name given to diplomatic missions (including some that aren't used nowadays)

This is not a bump. This is a...urm..

Okay, it's a bump. But a bump in honour of the defeat of UNID.

Does that make it okay?

We could pretend that we were discussing whether the excrescence that was UNID was in fact a masterful piece of misdirection intended to increase support for this proposal, if that would make you feel better?

Submitted for a trial run as Passport Standardisation Act

"Passport Hamonisation?"

Passports shall come in four types, Tennor, Lead, Baritone and Bass. All persons shall be assigned one of the four types based on the advice of the music committee. A quartet shall defined as a group of four people of the same gender consisting of one of each of the four types. Only proper quartets may enter nations for the purposes of barbershop competitions.

Anyway did someone say "crevat?"

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL291/1756382/3378396/261535739.jpg

OK Ladies who voted for the first option, please form a line. One at a time please!

1. DEFINES a "Passport" as a travel document by the nation of which the person is a citizen, identifying the bearer as a national of that country,


I'd say: "the nation of which the person is a national, identifying the bearer as such".

You can have a passport while being too young to qualify as a "citizen".


2. MANDATES that all citizens carry a Passport issued by a relevant nation in which they hold citizenship or other citizen status, when travelling abroad, except where deemed unnecessary through the existence of bilateral and multilateral border control agreement,


Replace "citizens" by "persons", or something similar. And that second one by "nationality". Maybe "nationality or permanent residency status"?


9. AFFIRMS that any national of a United Nations member state, carrying a valid passport and visa cannot be denied entry to a nation, except where either the security of that nation is at stake or for reasons of medical quarantine,


You need a comma after "visa".

This one's a bit tricky. What if (for example) you want to deny access to members of that nation's government, because they violate human rights in their country? Any such reason for denying entry would be prohibited by this clause.

What if you find prohibited objects in their luggage? You could confiscate their luggage, but this clause would prevent you from denying them entry.

Finally, the country I officially represent (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/ESAT) would be extremely unhappy at letting anyone in at all.

A very good proposal on the whole.

*adjusts his cravate (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Christophe_Boco)*


Christophe Boco,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

This one's a bit tricky. What if (for example) you want to deny access to members of that nation's government, because they violate human rights in their country? Any such reason for denying entry would be prohibited by this clause.Wouldn't you simply refuse to issue them a visa in the first place? The visa proposal affirms the right of a nation to set all policies regarding issuance.

What if you find prohibited objects in their luggage? You could confiscate their luggage, but this clause would prevent you from denying them entry.Immediate revocation of the visa would be warranted. Hrm, despite having just looked at the visa proposal, I couldn't tell you if it allows such revocation "at the border". Such a provision should probably be included, if it's not already, which it may be. Look, there. Shiny.

Leetha Talone
A tired UN Ambassador

Wouldn't you simply refuse to issue them a visa in the first place? The visa proposal affirms the right of a nation to set all policies regarding issuance.

Yes, true. I was thinking of cases where the individual's actions between he or she receiving a visa and he or she arriving might warrant denial of entry (or events coming to light after the visa has been issued). Maybe I'm quibbling over details.


Christophe Boco,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

No.

why? you cant just say no, that means there is no way he can fix it so that you might agree with it.:headbang: