NationStates Jolt Archive

International Dictionary Preserving Campaign

There are thousands of ancient and little known languages that are being lost every day. This resolution would insure that all languages have a dictionary. The dictionaries would be compiled by a new UN group, The UN Dictionaries.

All the major publishers of dictionaries are being asked to send at least one of their best dictionary writers to this UN group.

The dictionaries would be paid for by UN fund-raising, like bake sales, and also the profits of the sale of said dictionaries would fund future endeavors.

Interesting idea. What category would such a proposal fall under?

interesting proposal, kinda wish there were more 'guts' to it. at this point, the position is abstain, favouring against due to the fluid nature of language. languages come and go, and words are dropped and created or stolen, just the same. it is fine to start an initial one, but the upkeep over the years, not to mention that there is as many languages, if not more, than there is countries (4 in ours, including universal english). it would be one hell of a task.

I would have written more, but do I look like a writer? If anyone wants to add more guts feel free, and you get a writing credit at the end! Yay!
I don't know what category it would be, since I don't know the categorys. Human rights, perhaps?
This may be a hell of a task, but thats the UN, isn't it?

Thinking about it, this is probably covered under the Universal Library Coalition.

THE UNITED NATIONS -
CALLS for the formation of a Universal Library Coalition (ULC). The Universal Library provided by the ULC will be internet-based and may archive any published form of the written word including, but not limited to, fiction and nonfiction books, constitutions and laws from around the world, newspapers, magazines, and professional journals.

ACCEPTS submissions from individual member nations, in accordance with copyright laws. If the work is not in the public domain (as per resolution #60 - Public Domain), it may not be archived unless permission is obtained from the holder of the rights to the work. This individual or group will receive an annual payment in return for allowing wide access to their work.
It doesn't specifically mention dictionaries, but I don't see why they wouldn't be included.

the 'including, but not limited to' would mean dictionaries would be covered

That resolution archives already made books. This resolution creates dictionaries, not archiving them.

I think the title must be confusing. That will be changed eventually.

That resolution archives already made books. This resolution creates dictionaries, not archiving them.

I think the title must be confusing. That will be changed eventually.
that covers any book, whether past present or future. and i doubt there wouldnt be many languages that havent already got dictionaries

That resolution archives already made books. This resolution creates dictionaries, not archiving them.

I think the title must be confusing. That will be changed eventually.

So you're talking about a project to record dying languages? That's a more interesting suggestion, and one that possibly wouldn't be covered by ULC.

Hmm.....category is probably Human Rights......I think that's where most heritage proposals go.

Hmm.....category is probably Human Rights......I think that's where most heritage proposals go.

It depends on the aim. If it's preserving small cultures, then I'd agree. If it's trying to create a global knowledge basis, then it might tend towards Social Justice.

So you're talking about a project to record dying languages? That's a more interesting suggestion, and one that possibly wouldn't be covered by ULC.

Thats the proposal already written up there. No offense, but if any of you bothered to read past the title you would be able to figure that out...

Thats the proposal already written up there. No offense, but if any of you bothered to read past the title you would be able to figure that out...

No offence, but your post was woefully unclear. What does 'insure[sic] that all languages have a dictionary' actually mean? We can't just guess at things like that: we need to know what you're actually suggesting.

It depends on the aim. If it's preserving small cultures, then I'd agree. If it's trying to create a global knowledge basis, then it might tend towards Social Justice.

Considering Social Justice is about income/economic/societal disparity, I'd have a hard time believing that the preservation of dieing languages - not the people within the language, but the language itself - is Social Justice, no matter how you wrote it.

-------------------------

Thats the proposal already written up there. No offense, but if any of you bothered to read past the title you would be able to figure that out...

No offense, but if you think TLA and 3 UNOG members did not read past the title, you seriously need to rethink your default opinions of others and realize you yourself are prone to error and making things less than obvious - and sometimes it is your fault if we fail to understand, not ours.

Considering Social Justice is about income/economic/societal disparity, I'd have a hard time believing that the preservation of dieing languages - not the people within the language, but the language itself - is Social Justice, no matter how you wrote it.

Yes, you're right. I thought SJ was about education, but it doesn't seem like it is. I would think it would be a Mild HR proposal, though.

International Dictionary Preserving Campaign

There are thousands of ancient and little known languages that are being lost every day. This resolution would insure that all languages have a dictionary. The dictionaries would be compiled by a new UN group, The UN Dictionaries.

All the major publishers of dictionaries are being asked to send at least one of their best dictionary writers to this UN group.

The dictionaries would be paid for by UN fund-raising, like bake sales, and also the profits of the sale of said dictionaries would fund future endeavors.

Compadria alas suffers from a language problem of its own. The former dominant languages, a native version of Latin (my native toungue) and Dutch, have been in decline since the 18th century, when English was first introduced to our shores by immigrants. Now it has a 74% share of the language market and Dutch commands a mere 20% (50 years ago 25%) and Latin 6% (50 years ago 17%). It is thought that at current rates of change, Latin will become extinct by 2075 and Dutch by around 2150. We are at a loss as to how to save them.

Thus, we feel that this dictionary proposal could act to save many languages and possibly help maintain the two of which I spoke, so that there may be future generations to say:

"Compadra sub trio lingua" or "Een Compadria van drie taalen".

May the blessings of our otters be upon you.

Leonard Otterby
Ambassador for the Republic of Compadria to the U.N.

A resource to preserve languages, not just in the written form but also the audio might be worthy of the UN. Some effort has been made on this front by ULC, and also Rights of Indigenous peoples, but could merit further legislation.

I fully recognise this proposal as worthy enough to gather my support when proposed. I whole heartedly endorse this and will campaign for it when andif requested.
You've made yourself an ally.
Optischer

Compadria alas suffers from a language problem of its own. The former dominant languages, a native version of Latin (my native toungue) and Dutch, have been in decline since the 18th century, when English was first introduced to our shores by immigrants. Now it has a 74% share of the language market and Dutch commands a mere 20% (50 years ago 25%) and Latin 6% (50 years ago 17%). It is thought that at current rates of change, Latin will become extinct by 2075 and Dutch by around 2150. We are at a loss as to how to save them.

Thus, we feel that this dictionary proposal could act to save many languages and possibly help maintain the two of which I spoke, so that there may be future generations to say:

"Compadra sub trio lingua" or "Een Compadria van drie taalen".

May the blessings of our otters be upon you.

Leonard Otterby
Ambassador for the Republic of Compadria to the U.N.
we have a different situation here. our provinces are so fearcly protective of their languages that english is only used for diplomacy between provinces, and in Capital Province, which covers a small part of the nation.

I'll put it in once my UN nation gets two endorsements.

We think the idea of preserving endangered languages is a very fine one and thank the honorable representative from English Humour for bringing it to the attention of the NSUN.

We respectfully recommend that the honorable representative hold off a while before submitting the proposal. Frankly, we think the draft as written makes a good start, but needs considerable work before it has a chance of passage. The draft has only been available here for review and comment for one day. Allow some time for people to read it and provide comments and suggestions.

We'll try to furnish some comments and suggestions as soon as other commitments allow.

Hurlbot Barfanger
Ambassador to the United Nations.

A most excellent proposal, which we would be pleased to support. Also, we agree with the suggestion made by the delegate from Hirota, that audio records of some languages - namely those tied to oral rather than written cultures - should be considered.

Christelle Zyryanov
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

Is there a draft in here?

Is there a draft in here?I thought there was.....but now I'm worried there is not.

It's the first post in this thread.

If anyone has something they really want to add onto it just write in and put a little "Written by: *your name*" at the bottom and re-post it.

It's the first post in this thread.

If anyone has something they really want to add onto it just write in and put a little "Written by: *your name*" at the bottom and re-post it.

I hope you won't mind if I did a rewrite just to make it look pretty?

DEEPLY CONCERNED that there are thousands of ancient and little known languages lost everyday

DETERMINED that the preservation of these languages is a responsibility of the UN.

WELCOMES past, present and future resolutions which highlight the importance of preserving past cultures

PROPOSES the formation of a new archive called The UN Dictionaries

INVITES member states to supply information on known written and recorded languages, both past and present, to the UN. Information should include audio where possible.

FURTHER INVITES member states to work with groups employing minority languages to broaden the known information on written and spoken langauges.

FURTHER INVITES member states to contribute linguistic experts, archivists and other relevant personel to the completion and maintainence of the scheme

INVITES private book publishers to contribute best practices for archiving and storage.

use it, or don't - it's all good

It's the first post in this thread.

If anyone has something they really want to add onto it just write in and put a little "Written by: *your name*" at the bottom and re-post it.
Well, if that's the proposal, then this endeavor most definitely needs some work before submission.

I've been toying over a similar linguistic proposal for a while. I wanted to set up UN teams of linguists who would record dying or obscure languages and store them in an international database. There also might've been an international database for linguistic pedagogy. But, I never got around to actually meating out a draft (I decided other projects more important and realizable).

But, I think I'd fully support any attempt by another UN nation to do this, record dying and obscure languages. And I think I can give some advice:

It can't just be "dictionaries". Language is more than just an "a=b, c=d" association of native words with English or French words, you couldn't adequately record a language with just a dictionary. Language includes grammar, tense, semantics, pragmatics, sound scheme, etc.--and that's not including written language. There need to be plans, if languages are to be recorded, to make very detailed study of them including recordings of native speakers (as was mentioned), records of grammar and sound scheme (including regionalisms) and possibly more. That's why I thought it would be best to just assign a group of linguists, experts who would know what needs to be done to properly record a language.

Also, you'll need to think about mandate. Should it be required that this group of linguists (or in this case the dictionary) be allowed in to every member nation in which a dying or obscure language is spoken (or that every such nation must donate a dictionary, as the current proposal states)? Or should this be on a more voluntary basis, perhaps providing incentives for cooperative nations. I'm not certain which it should be. I was leaning towards making it mandatory that linguist be allowed into nations to record dying or obscure languages, but I hadn't asked any possibly anti-UN-linguist nations, nor had I drafted a complete preamble, which would define the urgency.

As I said, I thought an international pedagogy database was a good idea, in which member nations, or individuals from member nations, could contribute their thoughts on how to teach language. This is especially helpful if there are suddenly more languages your students are able to study--I mean, if a Spanish teacher is reassigned to teach Japanese, it'll likely be a fiasco (without great resources). And besides, an international pedagogy database would just generally elevate language teaching. It'd be best to create a database which can have some dialogue, like this forum, or a scholarly journal, and through which contributors can remain anonymous. Whether to include moderators and editors is a question which would need to be answered.

And it needs to be more than dying languages. One of the reasons to support the recording and publishing of obscure languages is to increase the international awareness of your citizens. It's a definitive part of the Whorf Theory Complex that what language you speak can help shape or even determine what thoughts you arrive at. Thus a diversity of language would likely produce a diversity of ideology. This should all be explained in the preamble, and it increases the urgency of recording languages (some people just don't care if a language dies--survival of the fittest, they'll say).

Anyway, I can go ahead and whip up a better draft (in line with the current conventions on proposals), and see if you guys (both the thread author and any interested in submitting this) like it. I could also contribute on upcoming telegram campaigns. I just really glad there are people interested in this.

Lemme see what I can do.

ADDENDUM: I see Hirota has a draft already :) I'll still see what I can come up with to encapsulate my database/linguist ideas. Any draft I come up with will be on the same "use it or don't--or you can use parts, it's all good" terms that Hirota institutes.

Since this idea seems to have caught fire, we felt we had better hurry and get a few comments in before we were left watching the train leave the station. [OOC: Mixed metaphors, anyone?]

The proposal should recognize that preservation of endangered languages could be of great value in the future to linguists, cultural anthropologists and historians.

As noted by the distinguished representative of Powerhungry Chipmunks, the record of a language must include more than a dictionary. As a minimum, it must include a dictionary, a descriptive grammar, and a record of the sound of the language -- either an audio recording or phonetic transcription.

Lorelei M. Ahlmann
Ambassador-at-Large

Further to PC's commentary, I have a few observations, which are mostly just reiterations of what he said:

1. Clearly, more than dictionaries are needed. I quite like Hirota's draft with respect to its vagueness on this matter, as I don't think one could account for all the possible ideas, but perhaps some explicit mention of thesauruses, grammars, and examples of idiom, such as folk tales, would be good.
2. Could we extend this to also try to record, for example, music? We have records of songs of some Native American tribes, for example, but can only guess at the melodic context. Perhaps we could also work at documenting religious, philosophical and scientific beliefs, arts, and so on. All of these could potentially 'die'. And I agree, fuck 'dying'*: we should be aiming at generally 'small' or obscure cultures.
3. I like the idea of an international centre for learning and study.
4. I'm going to restress PC's point on mandate. I would love to capture the folk songs of the rapidly-diminishing nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGut tribe of the nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGut hill in nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGutshire, Gruenberg (I'll stop now). I wouldn't love to give international linguists the authority to march into Gruenberg and go anywhere they please, ostensibly for the purposes of cultural research. This should remain, I feel, a 'soft' proposal.

* Allegations that the Gruenberger ambassador 'really loves' funerals are mostly exaggerated and slanderous.

The proposal should recognize that preservation of endangered languages could be of great value in the future to linguists, cultural anthropologists and historians.
I see that as being the most compelling reason for doing this. Yes, the proposal should make some mention of this.

I tried to come up with a draft, but I just came up short (heh). Mainly because I kept looking back on Hirota's draft and liking it so much (and since it isn't my proposal, I think it's best to stay with a derivative of the original). But, I still have those things that I would change about it. So, here're a few add-ons to Hirota's draft I'd make if I were the proposer.

Originally By: Hirota (changes in red)
DEEPLY CONCERNED that there are thousands of ancient and little known languages lost everyday

RECOGNISING the great value of language, both in diversity of culture and diversity of thought,

DETERMINED that the preservation of these languages is a responsibility of the UN.

WELCOMES past, present and future resolutions which highlight the importance of preserving past cultures

PROPOSES the formation of a new archive called The UN Languages Archive

INVITES member states to supply information on known recorded and spoken languages, both past and present, to the UN. Specifically, information on obscure or dwindling languages including word definitions, descriptive grammar and audio data.

FURTHER INVITES member states to work with groups employing minority languages to broaden the known information on those recorded and spoken langauges.

FURTHER INVITES member states to contribute linguistic experts, archivists and other relevant personel to the completion and maintainence of the scheme

INVITES private book publishers to contribute best practices for archiving and storage.

That roughly incorporates the idea of needing more than just dictionaries. I'm fine with whatever is used or not used. Nothing in there about language pedagogy, or oanything else. It's all on a voluteer basis at this point. Perhaps there should be explicit things allowing nations to open the resources of the UN Dictionaries/Language Archive up to their general populaces, since the idea is to publicize obscure languages.

That looks good to me!

Do you think that broadening the ambit of the archive to record, for example, music, and also to record aspects of non-literate societies, as well, perhaps, as footage of rituals, and so on, would be overburdening it? It just seems like an opportunity to deal with more than language.

Do you think that broadening the ambit of the archive to record, for example, music, and also to record aspects of non-literate societies, as well, perhaps, as footage of rituals, and so on, would be overburdening it? It just seems like an opportunity to deal with more than language.
I don't necessarily see anything wrong with it, though it does change the focus of the proposal a fair amount.

In that case, the proposal would need to focus (in the preamble) on how "cultural identity", which could be used to explain importance of both music and language is important. Otherwise, there's a justification of recording obscure languages, and an add-on that, oh, we should record music, too (unless it was argued that music was an essentially unique form of communication in a culture and thus as 'protectable' as language) Then there'd the question of whether to include other artwork.

So, to summarize my verbosity and rambling-ness, I think it's a good idea, but I also think it'd require a sizable restructure of the preamble and direction of the proposal. And it'd need to be answered why other art wasn't protected like music.

If those two things are feasible, then I'm thinking there's no reason it shouldn't be done.

Do you think that broadening the ambit of the archive to record, for example, music, and also to record aspects of non-literate societies, as well, perhaps, as footage of rituals, and so on, would be overburdening it? It just seems like an opportunity to deal with more than language.

While we believe that the recording of other aspects of a society's culture is a worthwhile endeavor, we would hesitate to add such a thing to this proposal. We are always wary of proposals that try to do too much. They too often get tangled up in arguments about secondary matters. We believe this proposal should stick to the original intent: preserving a record of languages.

As a side note.... We're not quite clear what the distinguished representative from Gruenberg means by "non-literate societies". If that means a society with spoken language but no written language, its language would absolutely be included in this effort. In fact, such languages would probably be given priority attention because of their fragility.

Hurlbot Barfanger
Ambassador to the United Nations

The main focus of the proposal is to save languages. If you want to save other stuff we would need another proposal. And I definitly like your changes, Powerhungry Chipmunks. Like I have said before, if it was written by Powerhungry Chipmunks, it has to be good.

The UN Languages Archive

A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.


Category: Social Justice


Strength: Significant


Proposed by: Army of Humour

Description: DEEPLY CONCERNED that there are thousands of ancient and little known languages lost everyday

RECOGNIZING the great value of language, both in diversity of culture and diversity of thought,

DETERMINED that the preservation of these languages is a responsibility of the UN.

WELCOMES past, present and future resolutions which highlight the importance of preserving past cultures

PROPOSES the formation of a new archive called The UN Languages Archive

INVITES member states to supply information on known recorded and spoken languages, both past and present, to the UN. Specifically, information on obscure or dwindling languages including word definitions, descriptive grammar and audio data.

FURTHER INVITES member states to work with groups employing minority languages to broaden the known information on those recorded and spoken languages.

FURTHER INVITES member states to contribute linguistic experts, archivists and other relevant personal to the completion and maintainence of the scheme

INVITES private book publishers to contribute best practices for archiving and storage.

*Notes* Based on the idea of English Humour, first draft written by English Humour, second draft written by Hirota (they wrote it mostly the way you see it today), third and final draft written by Powerhungry Chipmunks.

Approvals: 0

Status: Lacking Support (requires 128 more approvals)

Voting Ends: Mon Dec 12 2005

Wait, you submitted it? It'll be deleted for branding.

Branding?

Did you not read the Rules (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=420465&highlight=branding)?

Branding

Limited branding is allowed. "Limited" means that you may list one co-author by nation name only...Further branding will result in the Proposal being deleted. Don't list everyone who posted in the thread for your draft

I notice the proposal has already been deleted.

Yes, thank you. It also go deleted for not matching up with the category. So I need people to suggest what category it would go in, and who should get the most credit for writing it.

Yes, thank you. It also go deleted for not matching up with the category. So I need people to suggest what category it would go in, and who should get the most credit for writing it.I’d suggest whoever has the least resolutions out of myself and PC with at least partial credit should be credited with co-authorship.

In fact I think I might check who it would be under that idea. I’ve got one resolution – not sure about PC, I don't think he has any.

I think PC has had a few resolutions. I will ask him and then choose whoever has the least.

Any ideas for what category it falls into?

I think PC has had a few resolutions. I will ask him and then choose whoever has the least.

Any ideas for what category it falls into?

He has at least 3 resolutions.

The closest past resolution http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8616583&postcount=98 is Social Justice

Finally, instead of what you wrote on the end of your first effort, just write "co-authored by X" You get the credit at the beginning so no need to put yourself in there again.

This is going to be a tough one to fit into any category, and even if it was "Social Justice" it wouldn't be significant strength since it only proposes and invites. If you had it require the establishment of the archive and then mandated some other action, such as:
REQUIRES private book publishers to contribute best practices for archiving and storage.
Then it might be social justice. The strength would still be mild though. Still not sure about the Social Justice category though, because while it would "increase basic welfare" I'm not sure it would "reduce income inequality".

We find this proposal not to our liking.
For it preserves that which must by its very nature pass away, thus it serves no purpose.
We should look to the future, not for that which should be preserved, for something is worthy of being preserved it will be preserved without interference.
I therefore declare our intention to vote against this proposal as it has no place within a forward looking, agile agency that the UN should be.

The moderators said it didn't fit into either of those two, so it's not social justice.

The moderators said it didn't fit into either of those two, so it's not social justice.
I'm afraid that as written, it isn't anything. You'll need to make some changes in order for it to fit into any category.

What is it that needs to be added?

What is it that needs to be added?
Mainly preambulary stuff. It needs to be argued that in some way there's a human right to knowledge, or language, or etc. for Human Rights or that there is a disproportional benefit for the poor from recording obscure languages (which could be argued I guess) to fit it into Social Justice.

Then a little tweaking of the active clauses to make them effect the argument in the preamble. Not much, really.

Changes In Red

DEEPLY CONCERNED that there are thousands of ancient and little known languages lost everyday

RECOGNIZING the great value of language, both in diversity of culture and diversity of thought.

ARGURING that all people have a right to study and learn past and unknown languages.

DETERMINED that the preservation of these languages is a responsibility of the UN.

WELCOMES past, present and future resolutions which highlight the importance of preserving past cultures

PROPOSES the formation of a new archive called The UN Languages Archive

INVITES member states to supply information on known recorded and spoken languages, both past and present, to the UN. Specifically, information on obscure or dwindling languages including word definitions, descriptive grammar and audio data.

FURTHER INVITES member states to work with groups employing minority languages to broaden the known information on those recorded and spoken languages.

FURTHER INVITES member states to contribute linguistic experts, archivists and other relevant personal to the completion and maintainence of the scheme

FURTHER INVITES private book publishers to contribute best practices for archiving and storage.

Ok. I think the preamble could be stronger. How does this sound?

APPLAUDING the work of the UN in promoting cultural exchange,

SUPPORTING the right of all people to study and learn any languages of their choosing,

RECOGNISING that such learning will facilitate greater understanding between peoples, as well as leading to greater potential for academic research,

CONCERNED by the potential loss to the sum of global knowledge caused by the increasing loss of ancient and little known languages,

FULLY AWARE that without the aid of the UN, many languages, and their associated beliefs and knowledge, may be completely lost,

DETERMINING that the documentation and recording of these languages is a responsibility best suited to international efforts directed through the UN:

1. WELCOMES past, present and future resolutions which highlight the importance of preserving past cultures, and of facilitating the flow of knowledge between different cultures;

2. CREATES the UN Languages Archive (UNLA);

3. REQUESTS that member states supply information on known recorded and spoken languages, both past and present, to the UN, and specifically, information on obscure or dwindling languages including word definitions, descriptive grammar and audio data;

4. INVITES member states to work with groups employing minority languages to broaden the known information on those recorded and spoken languages;

5. FURTHER INVITES member states to contribute linguistic experts, archivists and other relevant personnel to the maintainence of the scheme;

6. CALLS UPON private book publishers to contribute best practices for archiving and storage.

I am concerned that 5 touches illegality for a committee violation, but you're probably ok. Obviously mine's quite a drastic rewrite: I like this proposal, but think it need a stronger start.

DEEPLY CONCERNED that there are thousands of ancient and little known languages lost everyday

Have you actually counted them? ;-)
(The government of St Edmund does approve of the basic concept that's involved here, but feels that some of the language used needs to be tightened up a bit...)

Mind you, I have counted...

Anyhow, Gruenberg, I definitly like your rewrite of the proposal. I do not think number five would be a problem, though, because it only invites, not forcing nations to take a part in it.

I'll wait for some more comments.