NationStates Jolt Archive

First I want to say after reading the first page of comments, I will post a draft.

Secondly, if this is illegal, tell me and we'll talk about it anyway.

Thirdly now to the point: Do you think Criminals who are given life or death sentences should be given a different punishment instead.
A punishment possibly giving them a fair bit of pain, in deserving of their crime.
A punishment like, say, Genetic experimentation.
Scientests must be desparate for human guinea pigs to experiment with, and prison crowding could do with sorting out.
Letting Scientests take these prisoners will be very beneficial to countries.
Money saved from building prisons and caring after prisoners, could go to the economy, or as it does in my country, go to those in poverty, helping close the poverty gap between poor and middle class people.
It makes a lot of sense to me, what do you think?
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http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/22MOUSE.jpg

You're welcome to do it in Optischer. Let us know how it goes. Not for us, though; nor, for that matter, the UN.

As you seem to be important, andof high position in the UN, would you please confirm if it is or isn't illegal and/or conflicting with any resolutions.
Optischer

barbaric punishments come to mind but thats just of the top of my head and i don't think that scientific freedom stretches this far...

First I want to say after reading the first page of comments, I will post a draft.

Secondly, if this is illegal, tell me and we'll talk about it anyway.

Thirdly now to the point: Do you think Criminals who are given life or death sentences should be given a different punishment instead.
A punishment possibly giving them a fair bit of pain, in deserving of their crime.
A punishment like, say, Genetic experimentation.
Scientests must be desparate for human guinea pigs to experiment with, and prison crowding could do with sorting out.
Letting Scientests take these prisoners will be very beneficial to countries.
Money saved from building prisons and caring after prisoners, could go to the economy, or as it does in my country, go to those in poverty, helping close the poverty gap between poor and middle class people.
It makes a lot of sense to me, what do you think?

i don't know if it's illegal and hope i misanderstood what you mean because it remains me this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

Should Life and/or Death sentences be replaced with Genetic Experimentation
WHAT FRESH HELL IS THIS?!

Nope. Violates "The Universal Bill of Rights", "END BARBARIC PUNISHMENTS" and most likely others that I'm too lazy to look up.

WHAT FRESH HELL IS THIS?!

Nope. Violates "The Universal Bill of Rights", "END BARBARIC PUNISHMENTS" and most likely others that I'm too lazy to look up.

Does it? It probably violates others. But no definition of torture is given in UBR. And so long as they don't break bones, bruise or blind, it's legal under EBP. So, it may be illegal, but would it necessarily be covered by these resolutions.

Love and esterel, I can't blame you for being worried, but I only propose to give the prisoners to scientests that will perform only tests for the good and advancement of mankind. I do not endorse in my government the genetic experimentation for warfare purposes. I merely suggest a different way of reducing prison overcrowding.

Thirdly now to the point: Do you think Criminals who are given life or death sentences should be given a different punishment instead.

To the latter, yes. Criminals sentenced to death shouldn't be.

A punishment possibly giving them a fair bit of pain, in deserving of their crime.

We don't use the direct inflication of pain in our criminal justice system. It's barbaric and pointless.

A punishment like, say, Genetic experimentation.

What exactly do you think genetic experimentation consists of? As far as I am aware, actual genetic alteration is mainly performed before development, so as to determine the effects of the alterations (this kind of experiment, most often performed on fruit flies, has been the basis of much of genetics in reality). Other experiments include simply testing genomes and matching mutations up with the conditions of the individual. The usefulness of active experimentation on adult individuals in the field of genetics is more limited in potential, to the best of my knowledge. Why have you chosen this field?

Scientests must be desparate for human guinea pigs to experiment with, and prison crowding could do with sorting out.

We can tell you that, as a nation with a strong scientific tradition and quite a few scientific researchers, that most scientists in _Myopia_ would be extremely averse to performing dangerous experiments on humans without their express consent. We also don't have a serious problem with prison overcrowding, due mainly to the sensible steps of not automatically locking away every criminal (we find it often better to sentence petty, non-violent criminals to community service) and not locking away millions of people for making personal choices.

Money saved from building prisons and caring after prisoners

How would you save money? These prisoners would still need to be housed, fed and kept in decent condition to be of any use, and equipping all these new labs for experimentation on humans would cost quite a lot of money.

I don't think it is illegal (any resolutions on inhumane treatment or the sort have not stopped the death penalty from being legal, which is arguably a more serious violation). But I will fight against this sort of resolution by all means possible.

I would like to suggest that the great leader of Optischer should be given the exact treatment he proposes for submitting such an idea, but then again, I am against all kinds of physical punishment... so I won't.

Sincerely,
The Wise Ruler of The Most Serene Republic of Fonzoland

Either that or organ harvesting. It seems such a waste to ruin perfectly good organs.

a lot of nations have mandatory organ donation already.

Optischer may be radical but once their government enacts all the relevant resolutions they'll find what they're planning is illegal.

Love and esterel, I can't blame you for being worried, but I only propose to give the prisoners to scientests that will perform only tests for the good and advancement of mankind. I do not endorse in my government the genetic experimentation for warfare purposes. I merely suggest a different way of reducing prison overcrowding.


Due to the ruling on so called inhumane punishment it has been required in some places that a person get say a heart of liver transplant so they can be healthy enough to hang or fry.. This in many real life places is the rule... Thus if you use a person for some experiment and they get ill somebody has to pay for it. Most of time it's the citizens since way things end up he is no longer able to work or serve out what he was doing so back to some prison.. Which somebody has to pay for only now due to all the experiments on them they cost more to pay health cost.. Aslo who is to say what is for military use or civilian use. If you test a virus on civilians chances are it will benifit the military also.. unless you have robots in the military only......

to me, it is up to the individual nations, but as UN mandate: hell no

Love and esterel, I can't blame you for being worried, but I only propose to give the prisoners to scientests that will perform only tests for the good and advancement of mankind. I do not endorse in my government the genetic experimentation for warfare purposes. I merely suggest a different way of reducing prison overcrowding.


We are surprised at Optischer's threats to our nation to force us to change our position. Here is the text of their telegram received in our ministry yesterday:

"Reconsider your position on genetic experimenting and a few of your people may not mysteriousl vanish and re-appear without any vital parts."
We are not easily scared in Balsack. But this behavior is certainly not acceptable. Besides, my favorite bartender disappeared and then returned without any arms. How can I get a cold brewski out of the guy now? I mean REALLY !!

Clearly Optischer's statement that it would not be used for warfare purposes belies their true intent, as they are all ready to use it in such a manner.

This extortion will not stand. We are hereby calling on the UN to take up this matter. (Do we have a security council?) And does anyone have a cold beer? I'm parched, here. Dang! My assistant's legs just disappeared! Alright! This has got to stop!

;)

Yes there is no effective definition for Barbaric Punishment or torture, but there is one line in his discussion that I feel proves it falls under UBR and EBP

A punishment possibly giving them a fair bit of pain, in deserving of their crime.

The fact we're talking about pain indicates this is something akin to torture and thus illegal. However, if this was done in the most humane possible way so as not to torment the prisoner without his explicit consent, I think it would actually pass a legality ruling.

(Do we have a security council?) And does anyone have a cold beer?
To answer your questions, no we do not have a security council (and trying to create one through a resolution is illegal), and if you're wanting a beer you should go to the UN Strangers Bar (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=310853) where I'm sure Neville will be happy to serve you.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Love and esterel, I can't blame you for being worried, but I only propose to give the prisoners to scientests that will perform only tests for the good and advancement of mankind. I do not endorse in my government the genetic experimentation for warfare purposes. I merely suggest a different way of reducing prison overcrowding.

If it's prison overcrowding you're worried about, why not borrow a page from the recently debated "UN Death Row Pardon" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=446747) proposal and institute televised gladiatorial combat? The money earned through advertising this popular game show can be donated to the scientific projects you have in mind, and will be much more effective than merely using the prisoners for spare parts.

Unless Balsack can prove I sended the telegram, then I suggest that he or she retracts their comments.

Unless Balsack can prove I sended the telegram, then I suggest that he or she retracts their comments.
Can't speak for Balsack, but you sent similar ones to me, and they are still in my inbox.
The Protectorate of Optischer
Received: 1 day ago
I hope you are to change your decision on genetic experimenting on prisoners. Wouldn't it be most unfortunate if your people became guinea pigs?
I asked how this might happen and then recieved this:
The Protectorate of Optischer
Received: 1 day ago
Let's just say a few biomechanics companies of optischerian origin have been sponsored to set up abroad.
To which I responded "Stop sending me spam".

Unless Balsack can prove I sended the telegram, then I suggest that he or she retracts their comments.

OOC:

Individual players can't prove this without filing a "Getting Help Request" - essentially making the game moderators view the telegram in question. The moderators can view any telegram that hasn't been deleted. Thus, if a nation is spamming others with telegrams (I'm not accusing anybody, just pointing out), the moderators can find out if enough people complain. Those instances usually result in some form of unpleasantness.

Of course, I am not a moderator, and this is not the moderation forum. So take it as you will.

/OOC

Unless Balsack can prove I sended the telegram, then I suggest that he or she retracts their comments.

The Most Serene Republic of Balsack has retained this telegram in its inbox, as has, apparently, at least one of the other recipients of a similar telegram.

We will state clearly our opinion on the matter of genetic experimentation: We are against it in the form proposed by Optischer. The threat has not changed our position.

Clearly the methods of Optischer have been brought out into the light of day by the corroboration of one other recipient, and we feel that this is sufficient at this time. In the spirit of diplomacy, we will allow this issue of the threat to rest. We will go on notice, however, that no further such antics will be tolerated by the Most Serene Republic of Balsack (banging of shoe on podium). We have another shoe, and are not afraid to bang it, also!

Thanks for the directions to the bar, by the way. It's really very nice.:D

Unless Balsack can prove I sended the telegram, then I suggest that he or she retracts their comments.

How's this, by the way?

http://www.colecomputerservices.com/Misc/gif/Optischer.gif

Humans(prisoners or no) need to be treated humanely. Genetic experimentation on humans is as much of an abonimation as cloneing for harvesting organs or burning people for fuel. A humans life is not just something to throw away for more emoney. Thats why being a hitman is illegal.

Making threats to other nations that include the harming of their citizens is just asking for war. Sending it to several nations simultaneously is just asking for annihilation. If you do not wish to at least be somewhat diplomatic, you shall not be missed when the iron hammer of many UN nations falls upon your own.

The Most Serene Republic of Balsack wishes to thank the Most Honorable Delegate from The Empire of Forgottenlands for their support.

While Balsack finds all wars repugnant, we recognize the need to stop those nations with military action, if necessary, when they prefer to implement their policies by means of violence. However, we would implore all nations to consider the gravity of such actions and would call for calm discussion in the place of provocative rhetoric.

While Balsack finds all wars repugnant, we recognize the need to stop those nations with military action, if necessary, when they prefer to implement their policies by means of violence. However, we would implore all nations to consider the gravity of such actions and would call for calm discussion in the place of provocative rhetoric.If calm discussion does not work though, Hirota has a willingness to employ military might to defend a fellow UN state from the violent threats of Optischer.

Hell, Hirota could do with more lebensraum, and the systematic extermination of a few Optischerans might make some more space for real estate and theme parks.

Optischer does not deny these messages were sent, but does deny that it was sent by the current ruler. A overthrow of government (revolution) occured and we changed the password. We are sorry to any states who were offended, and request Hirota retract it's comment. If you are suggesting that this countries citizens are a waste of space, I struggle to see how you may comment.
Optischer

Back to topic: Every human, if criminal or not has it's rights and these are untouchable. Torture and experiments with anybody are barbaric and that's why I dissagree with this.

Then, In my own right, I am Illegal within the UN.
If this is so, please tell me. And I'll quit this mess

Then, In my own right, I am Illegal within the UN.
If this is so, please tell me. And I'll quit this mess

If you are practicing this policy already, then you are breaking UN law.

Then, In my own right, I am Illegal within the UN.
If this is so, please tell me. And I'll quit this mess

Why should we expel someone from the UN, or cause them to quit, if they have learned the error of their ways? We should be even more lenient if, as Optischer states, that these transgressions were accomplished by the old regime.
However, we would ask for some assurances from the new regime that they believe in the philosophies extolled by this august body, since they came to power resulting from a coup-de-tat or rebellion. What knowledge do we have of this new regime, and how will they work with other nation members?

Perhaps Optischer should be placed on some sort of probation, if that is legal within this body, until such time that their actions and philosophies are deemed acceptable.

Perhaps we should start a new thread on this subject. Those who are more knowledgable than this delegate may wish to provide guidance as to the proper handling of this type of situation. Those in favor please show your agreement.

As for the Most Serene Republic of Balsack, this ambassador will abide by the decision of his most learned colleagues.

I have just discussed this matter with our Leader, President Ignatius J. Reilly, who has asked me to make this announcement:

"The Most Serene Republic of Balsack respectfully submits that the proposed resolution brought forth by Optischer be withdrawn by the United Nations until such a time that their status as a UN Member can be determined. On point of order, since this proposed resolution was obviously promulgated by the regime which is no longer in power, by their own admission, then the proposal, in fact, and by definition, is already vacated. All further discussion on this proposed resolution should therefore be suspended and any endorsements should be immediately withdrawn."

IC: It should be noted that Gnomes have likely already dealt with issues pertaining to the legislation permitting such attrocities to take place. However, I suspect that general oversight has lead to no one being prosecuted for breaking such rules and I highly recommend to the new government of Optischer to remedy this situation.

WHAT FRESH HELL IS THIS?!

Nope. Violates "The Universal Bill of Rights", "END BARBARIC PUNISHMENTS" and most likely others that I'm too lazy to look up.

My government is not offended by the suggestion that the idea be considered, but is extremely thankful that a number of UN ambassadors, including the Yeldan ambassador, have been so quick to point to the legality of this idea. Except under the most extreme exceptions, we will not support a resolution to legalize genetic experimentation on prisoners. In all things, they are clearly entitled to human rights.

Howie T. Katzman

The Monarchy strips those convicted of capital level offenses of their status of being human. Anything capeable of acts of that sort are clearly animals. Not to say we torture them or anything, but they do provide a valuable testing resource for our centers for disease control. Really just another form of death sentance. We also keep them heavilly sedated during the testing. This dosn't seem to be that far from your intended proposal, although we could never support it in the form of a UN resolution.

"In response to the Leader of Balsack, I leader of Optischer would like to welcome him to a cold, uninviting reception, where we will take all the comfy chairs and eat all the best food. And to show our sorrow towards them, we will let them clean up, before being sent back in an lunatic asylum vehicle.
In simpler words for Balsack. Any punishment on our part for suggesting these ideas would be seen unlawful to the UN as we have only suggested this, and have not proposed it to the UN.
I hereby pledge to make the President Ignatius J. Reilly retract his comments, or at least edit them so they are not offensive to us. Seeing, of course, as we didn't seek to insult them, they should not insult us.
Thank you for your time."
Therefore, any action of punishment will be greeted by our armed forces.
optischer

"In response to the Leader of Balsack, I leader of Optischer would like to welcome him to a cold, uninviting reception, where we will take all the comfy chairs and eat all the best food. And to show our sorrow towards them, we will let them clean up, before being sent back in an lunatic asylum vehicle.
In simpler words for Balsack. Any punishment on our part for suggesting these ideas would be seen unlawful to the UN as we have only suggested this, and have not proposed it to the UN.
I hereby pledge to make the President Ignatius J. Reilly retract his comments, or at least edit them so they are not offensive to us. Seeing, of course, as we didn't seek to insult them, they should not insult us.
Thank you for your time."
Therefore, any action of punishment will be greeted by our armed forces.
optischer


Surely, The Esteemed Leader of Optischer must know that it is not the proposed resolution that was offensive. It was the threat to the people of Balsack, received in a telegram and not in this forum that was an offense of the highest order. And, in spite of our appeals for cool heads and that Optischer not be expelled from the UN, they still continue to speak in menacing words.

The Most Serene Republic of Balsack charges that Optischer has made their intentions clear. So be it. If it is their desire to attack our courageous people, then let them have at it! We will be ready to answer in full strength!
We will not be the first to attack, but we will most certainly be the last standing. IF IT'S WAR THEY WANT, THEN BY GOD IT'S WAR THEY SHALL HAVE! Balsack submits to no one, especially cowardly nations who use threats of terrorism to get their way. We are amassing our vast military might as I speak. We are ready to repel any and all invaders!

Would the esteemed representatives of Optischer and Balsack please cease their dilatory comments on the floor of this forum for international cooperation? Please feel free to settle your disputes on the battlefield, in the bedroom, or in any other manner that confers upon both parties the privacy this matter requires.

高原由
クリオヴァル

Yoshi Takahara
Krioval

As it says in the bible, Balsack is an eye for an eye, but I prefer to choose the option which states that if this were the case, the world would be blind.
I have not made my intentions clear as of yet, and I will attack on any indication of hostile Movements by Balsack.
I don't want to attack first, and regardless of war, we shall both be worse off than before. Though I see you more than I suffering.
If this is a declaration of War by Balsack then let them declare this and we will most willingly fight them to protect what we think is right.
I don't want a battle with Balsack, but A cold war would be better.
I am not threatening you, I just said in my last post that this is what I would do to you if I had the chance.
If Balsack attacks me first, then they should receive the punishments not I. If Balsack strikes me, I will rally my allies.
I will do all I can to prevent the final weapon from commencing.
But be warned Balsack,
Their's more to the Raven's eye.
Optischer
Commander of the Relocation Project
Master of Planet Pius
Lord of the Solar trinity

Shouldn't this crap be in II?

For those of you who are concerned about the war between me and Blasack, I have started a new thread in international incidents called Optischer and Balsack: The postponed war
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=456780
Balsack openlyy dedclared hostile intent against me, and I have notified them that I will do what I must to protect my people.
Optischer