NationStates Jolt Archive

The Nation States International Communications Harmonisation Act.

edit

There is a new draft lower down. Please read that, rather than this :}



Noting that there are many nations in the NSUN, and many languages,

Noting the difficulty in communicating between languages,

Noting the problematic situations that can occur when someone is unable to understand the language of the nation they are in,

Noting that the most confusing part of vising a new nation is the language barrier,

and noting that English appears to be the most common language spoken in the UN,

Hereby

Requires that all points of ingress and egress in a nation post signs in both their native language and English,

Requires that all nations have English Speakers available at said points,

Urges all nations to have available English speakers at police stations and hospitals,

Recommends all nations to support dual language signs in all public places,

Suggests all governmental publications are done in both languages,

Requires all international publications be done in both languages, excepting those that are protected for security reasons.

Exceptions : Any country where English is the national language does not need to duplicate signs in the same language.


Pro : It will make everyone's life easier, and it is something that is an international matter, rather than a national one (I would say). Plus it should be fairly easy to do and arrange.

Cons : I get that cost might be an issue, and that the generic and unavoidable problem of national sovereignty will raise it's ugly head.

Other things :- Any problems I might have overlooked? (Seriously - this is just something off the top of my head, and I really might be missing something important).

Although our government agrees with you that English should be the prime language (primarily because our country's official language is English), I have concerns in that there may be some nations where only the very, very, few (that is the top 2% of the population made of the elite) can speak or understand English... would it be financially logical for governments to raise taxes, resulting in additional burden to the poor to have government publications and signs in public places in English where people won't even read it in the first place?

Regards,
Hakim Zilativ
Ambassador to the UN, DR of Vitalinia

Requires that all points of ingress and egress in a nation post signs in both their native language and English,

Requires that all nations have English Speakers available at said points,
Good. I tend to agree with these articles.

Urges all nations to have available English speakers at police stations and hospitals,
Do you mean that they should be there all the time, or just available and on call. In many nations the need for these people might only arise infrequently.
Recommends all nations to support dual language signs in all public places,
Can't agree with this one. Maybe at all ports of entry and public transport facilities connected to those ports of entry. I can't really see the need for it at restaurants, libraries, etc.
Suggests all governmental publications are done in both languages,

Requires all international publications be done in both languages, excepting those that are protected for security reasons.
I don't see the need for this. I could see doing this for documents specifically aimed at an international readership (and declassified, of course). Why do internal documents of the Yeldan Ministry of Public Waterways need to be printed in English?

I think you've got a good idea here though. Keep working on it.
*edit: I just noticed it says "international publications". Sorry.

Although our government agrees with you that English should be the prime language (primarily because our country's official language is English), I have concerns in that there may be some nations where only the very, very, few (that is the top 2% of the population made of the elite) can speak or understand English... would it be financially logical for governments to raise taxes, resulting in additional burden to the poor to have government publications and signs in public places in English where people won't even read it in the first place?

Regards,
Hakim Zilativ
Ambassador to the UN, DR of Vitalinia

I realise there are a lot of nations that don't speak English, so that if someone from Hyrule goes to Lalaland (neither nation has English) it won't do either of them any good, but on the whole English does appear to be the most common international language (as evidenced by the posts on this forum for example).

The signs are not for the native speakers, but for anyone who comes from abroad to that nation - to ensure no one gets lost, or (for example) ends up arrested and can't understand the policemen, let alone the charges.

Do you mean that they should be there all the time, or just available and on call. In many nations the need for these people might only arise infrequently.


Yes. Sorry. Should have been more specific.


Can't agree with this one. Maybe at all ports of entry and public transport facilities connected to those ports of entry. I can't really see the need for it at restaurants, libraries, etc.


That's why it was an urges thing - it does not mandate it, but just suggests it would be a good idea. (Mostly it was aimed at roadsigns and so forth - so that people can find their way around. Also police stations and hospitals should have duplicate signs, not just duplicate people who can talk)


I don't see the need for this. I could see doing this for documents specifically aimed at an international readership (and declassified, of course). Why do internal documents of the Yeldan Ministry of Public Waterways need to be printed in English?


Mostly I meant external publications of the government (for example if the government post laws and warning signs or safety notices or travel notices or other things that people who don't live in the nation might need to know about)

And - as you noted - international publications that are destined for other nations (hence the exemption for national security reasons)


I think you've got a good idea here though. Keep working on it.


I plan to. I have no endorsements, so it might be a bugger, but I will :}

Thanks for the comments/advice.

Suggests all governmental publications are done in both languages,

Requires all international publications be done in both languages, excepting those that are protected for security reasons.

Hello,

These two clauses seem to target two different areas. The first clause seems to focus on domestic government publications, while the second focuses on international releases.

In the case of the second, my government would be willing to support the idea that the UN should be responsible for archiving all international treaties between UN members and then translating them from the languages they were written in to English as well. The UN copies of these treaties could then be requested by any other nation, and it would be the responsibility of the nation requesting the copy to translate the UN version from English or the original treaty language into their domestic language.

The first clause referenced, however, seems really to be a domestic issue. There are cantons in Mikitivity where even citizens of the Confederation are not encouraged to travel, the mountainous canton of Aslan being one such place -- its incredibly dangerous and really extremely boring. ;)

If people are interested in vacationing in Mikitivity, communities that welcome visitors, such as Miervatia City and St. Katrina, already have publications in English, German, and French. In fact, these two cities are so interested in tourism, that their city councils tend to translate documents into many other languages as well.

With this in mind, we'd like to ask that the first clause be removed from the NS-ICHA. Sensible governments will make the effort to encourage tourism via simple signage or translated documents if they want it. But in some cases, there might be good reasons to not support multiple languages.

I'd also like to point out that most cantons in Mikitivity already are multi-lingual -- for example: Miervatia City has signs in English and German. But if that had been French and German, it would make it a bit more complicated to have signs in three languages. Nations should probably have the choice.

The place that having multiple languages makes the most sense would be ports of entry, which the NS-ICHA hinted at. Maybe the resolution could focus just on ports of entry -- and if so, instead of saying "dual languages", my government would suggest "multiple languages" be used instead, in order to account for nations that have several official languages.

Tourists to Kirisubo would already find a lot of people speaking english. Theres not many of them at the moment but we would consider a 'general guide book' in english if the numbers increased dramtically.

while we're talking about tourism let me tell you about the guided tour of the Imperial palace, the great city of Edo and our nations many lush forests and the many historical buildings we have.

Looks like it's a good start. Clear, a new idea (huzzah!), just needs a bit of finishing work. Good work!

If anyone wants to find out about Enn's use of English, check our Wiki entry. I'm not sure I really need to type it all out again.

Ecopoeians speak many languages, but English is not one of them. The dominant language in our hemisphere would appear to be Celdonian; may I venture that this be declared the standard instead?

Mathieu Vergniaud
Deputy Speaker to the UN

OOC: Celdonian is the English equivalent in the 'Aperin-Alcaera' world in which Ecopoeia resides. Paristani (Vergniaud's first language) = French, Caselonian = Russian, Tavast = Finnish, Rigan = Swedish, etc, etc. Given that the NS world is a kind of multiverse where nations like Ecopoeia have no awareness of the existence of any nations outside of their own world, the standardisation of language is a mite bit problematic, I'd say. To clarify, the Ecopoeian UN Speakers are aware, but their memories are wiped whenever they leave the Halls of the UN - call it NS protecting the cultural sensitivities of us wee non-spacefaring nations.

Our initial reaction to this proposal is that it is a fresh idea and a very good one. While other matters pressing at the moment will not allow us to give it the attention it deserves right now, we look forward to seeing subsequent drafts and think this will end up as a proposal we will support. Some preliminary comments....

The requirement to establish English as a lingua franca at entry/exit points is excellent.

The non-binding clauses on hospitals, police stations and signs are good. If they were binding and imposed blanket requirements, we think there would be some serious issues of practicality and cost-benefit. But as they are, they're fine.

The only provisions that give us pause are those concerning publications. As has been suggested elsewehere, we believe these need some clarification and limitation.

An excellent start towards a very worthwhile proposal.

Hurlbot Barfanger
Ambassador to the United Nations

Ecopoeians speak many languages, but English is not one of them. The dominant language in our hemisphere would appear to be Celdonian; may I venture that this be declared the standard instead?

Mathieu Vergniaud
Deputy Speaker to the UN


Speaker Vergniaud, do you wish to suggest that all UN nations use Celdonian as the standard instead of English?

Howie T. Katzman

i feel it may be an idea to include other widely spoken languages such as French and German on signage at ports of entry.

not everyone speaks english as a second language.

i feel it may be an idea to include other widely spoken languages such as French and German on signage at ports of entry.

not everyone speaks english as a second language.

It was based on the idea that everyone on the forums speaks English and my (ooc) experience indicates that when a whole load of people get together who don't speak each other's languages, english is the most commonly spoken....

Speaker Vergniaud, do you wish to suggest that all UN nations use Celdonian as the standard instead of English?

Howie T. Katzman
It would certainly suit Ecopoeia.

OOC: Can we not assume we just have shit-hot translators? This isn't firm opposition, by the way. This proposal has 'stain my abs' written all over it, as far as Ecopoeia is concerned.

It would certainly suit Ecopoeia.

OOC: Can we not assume we just have shit-hot translators? This isn't firm opposition, by the way. This proposal has 'stain my abs' written all over it, as far as Ecopoeia is concerned.

People have been whining and bitching about the UN interfering with stuff that is not international business, so I thought I would try something that was.

That was my whole motivation :}

Requires all international publications be done in both languages, excepting those that are protected for security reasons

It is patently ludicrous to mandate and force all book and newspaper publishers translate their work and double their print run simply to reach an English-speaking audience that might not exist for their product.

If there were three small nations that all spoke the same language, and shipped international publications to each other, but none of those nations spoke English, why are you mandating that they also have to publish an English-language version of their work?

This would be seen as the tyranny of the majority at its worst.

While we would like to support some measures of the resolution related to travel, we also feel it is importune and selfish to impose this on all member nations unilaterally without thinking through it's actual impact on economic productivity, especially in the publishing sector.

It is patently ludicrous to mandate and force all book and newspaper publishers translate their work and double their print run simply to reach an English-speaking audience that might not exist for their product.

If there were three small nations that all spoke the same language, and shipped international publications to each other, but none of those nations spoke English, why are you mandating that they also have to publish an English-language version of their work?

This would be seen as the tyranny of the majority at its worst.

While we would like to support some measures of the resolution related to travel, we also feel it is importune and selfish to impose this on all member nations unilaterally without thinking through it's actual impact on economic productivity, especially in the publishing sector.


Sorry - that was supposed to be international GOVERNMENTAL publications :} I really don't know where the word governmental went to :}

Why don't you allow governmental works to be translated and kept in electronic format to keep from having to incur publishing costs?

(Not to mention, it saves paper.)

It is also contestable what a governmental "international publication" might be. If a Chinese-speaking or Arabic-speaking municipal government produces a website available on the Internet, does it need to translate the front page, or the entire thing?

You could require that publications of the UN must be translated into English, but national governments are more than free to simply speak the languages they speak, and not have to cater to your nation.

You might need to get translators, or actually take language classes.

We suggest to have English-speaking nations subsidize the programme, so it does not represent a language 'tax' on non-English speaking nations.

If it's a service that English-speaking nations wish to pay for from non-English-speaking nations, then let them underwrite it.

You might need to get translators, or actually take language classes.

We suggest to have English-speaking nations subsidize the programme, so it does not represent a language 'tax' on non-English speaking nations.

If it's a service that English-speaking nations wish to pay for from non-English-speaking nations, then let them underwrite it.


The people of Cluichstan believe that these are very good suggestions, and if they are followed, there is no need for a UN resolution on the matter.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstan's Ambassador to the UN
Regional Delegate from Scybala

Why don't you allow governmental works to be translated and kept in electronic format to keep from having to incur publishing costs?

(Not to mention, it saves paper.)


I thought this was clear, but I guess in my head I have a different definition.

To publish means to send outside of the people who wrote it. So that - for example - when I publish a story, I post it on a website. No paper involved. I can also publish a document and send paper copies, but it's not strictly necessary to do so.


It is also contestable what a governmental "international publication" might be. If a Chinese-speaking or Arabic-speaking municipal government produces a website available on the Internet, does it need to translate the front page, or the entire thing?


I would say that - arguably - it would publish the whole thing, if it is meant to be international. I realise websites are all over the world, but if it is a local site (for example we have a website in my office, but it is purely designed for people in Pallatium. Other people can access it and read it, but it doesn't affect them. However we also have a website designed for everyone, so we publish is in English as well as Tulan)


You could require that publications of the UN must be translated into English, but national governments are more than free to simply speak the languages they speak, and not have to cater to your nation.


Hmmm. A good point. That might be what I had in my head with "international governmental publications" but I hadn't realised it.....


You might need to get translators, or actually take language classes.

We suggest to have English-speaking nations subsidize the programme, so it does not represent a language 'tax' on non-English speaking nations.

If it's a service that English-speaking nations wish to pay for from non-English-speaking nations, then let them underwrite it.

Hmmmmmm. Another good point. But all this was predicated on the idea that English, while not the most common spoken first language in the world, might be the most commonly spoken second language. So most people would learn it already.

The people of Cluichstan believe that these are very good suggestions, and if they are followed, there is no need for a UN resolution on the matter.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstan's Ambassador to the UN
Regional Delegate from Scybala

Because god forbid the UN actually do something that actually has an international scope and would benifit most everyone from every country. That would *never* do.

The New Pictaviens already speak English as their primary language. This resolution would not be a problem for us.

On a side note however, it would seem fairly pointless for a non-English country who did not have international relations with a English-speaking country to have to print things in English as well as their own language. As much as I recognise that English is now and has been for several years a universal language, small pockets of the world, non-UN affiliated, will not need the use of English for several years to come.

The New Pictaviens already speak English as their primary language. This resolution would not be a problem for us.

On a side note however, it would seem fairly pointless for a non-English country who did not have international relations with a English-speaking country to have to print things in English as well as their own language. As much as I recognise that English is now and has been for several years a universal language, small pockets of the world, non-UN affiliated, will not need the use of English for several years to come.

The second part - the non UN Member nations - isn't relevent. UN Resolutions are only binding on those nations in the UN, so non member nations are not affected, nor are they bound by this.

The first part - yeah. If a nation doesn't trade or deal with an English speaking nation, and no English speakers will go there, I can see an arguement for not applying this.

The only problem is the entire proposal can not be "urges", "suggests" or "recommends" - cause if the entire proposal can be ignored then it is not really permitted to be passed by the UN into law.

Maybe I should rethink this whole plan. Or I just FORCE YOU ALL TO BOW TO MY WILL!!! (bwahahahahahaha!!bwahahahahahaha!!bwahahahahahaha!!)


Ok. I will rethink it :}

Ok. I will rethink it :}

Good call.

The second part - the non UN Member nations - isn't relevent. UN Resolutions are only binding on those nations in the UN, so non member nations are not affected, nor are they bound by this.

The first part - yeah. If a nation doesn't trade or deal with an English speaking nation, and no English speakers will go there, I can see an arguement for not applying this.

The only problem is the entire proposal can not be "urges", "suggests" or "recommends" - cause if the entire proposal can be ignored then it is not really permitted to be passed by the UN into law.

Maybe I should rethink this whole plan. Or I just FORCE YOU ALL TO BOW TO MY WILL!!! (bwahahahahahaha!!bwahahahahahaha!!bwahahahahahaha!!)


Ok. I will rethink it :}

yes, re-reading my previous post, i did make that statement rather foolishly.

Personally, in my honest opinion, it has potential but there are several things that need to be ironed out.;)

yes, re-reading my previous post, i did make that statement rather foolishly.

Personally, in my honest opinion, it has potential but there are several things that need to be ironed out.;)

I do actually have a whole new version, but the forums ate it last night during the great vBulliten disaster of '05 :}

So - there is a new version coming, and it should sort out most problems. And create a whole boat-load of new ones of course :}

I do actually have a whole new version, but the forums ate it last night during the great vBulliten disaster of '05 :}

So - there is a new version coming, and it should sort out most problems. And create a whole boat-load of new ones of course :}

Good! We continue to believe the idea has considerable merit.

Hurlbot Barfanger
Ambassador to the United Nations

Noting that there are many nations in the NSUN, and many languages,

Noting the difficulty in communicating between languages,

Noting the problematic situations that can occur when someone is unable to understand the language of the nation they are in,

Noting that the most confusing part of vising a new nation is the language barrier,

Noting that most, if not all, member nations have access to the internet (including The Global Library), and

Noting that supplying electronic documention is easier and more cost-effective than paper documentation,

Hereby

Requires member nations to publish basic and advanced language guides in the appropriate languages at The Global Library (if they have access) and on a public governmental website (if one is available),

Further requires member nations to provide said guides on request to other nationas by means of e-mail, or other means of publication available to the nation of which the guides are requested,

Strongly urges any citizen considering travelling abroad takes the time to study these guides and learn the level of language they will require, within the scope of the guides,

Requires member nations to publish advisory notices in the appropriate languages, at all points of ingress to the nation, and on a public governmental website (if one is available),

Urges member nations to publish signs in the appropriate languages in police stations, hospitals and "transport centers" (railway stations, shuttle launch bays, bus stations and so forth),

Recommends member nations co-operate in providing translators for citizens in other nations should they be required (for legal proceedings, medical proceedings and so forth),

Suggest member nations co-operate in setting up training for translators to be supplied on a permenent basis (for examples at Embassies or other diplomatic stations).

Definitions

Appropriate Languages : the three most commonly spoken languages in the nations that make up the geographical region surrounding the member nation. (This can not include the home language(s) of the member nation)

Basic : Enough to allow the average person to visit the nation for a short to medium time (around 2 weeks to around a month), get basic help from the police or other government agencies should they require it, be able to deal with basic medical emergencies, be able to ask for a translator and directions to their embassy (should one be open) and to be able to ask for help if they are lost.

Advanced : Enough to allow the average person to visit the nation for a medium to long time (around a month to around six months), get more detailed help from the police or other government agencies, be able to deal with more complex or long term medical situations and be able to be mostly self-sufficient in that time (dealing with domestic issues and so forth)

Advisory Notices : Notices that would warn a citizen of the nation about varoius dangers, conflicts, natural disasters and other such details that tourists should also be made aware of (example - not to go in to the jungle alone)


I know - there are some very crappy definitions, which REALLY need revising (mostly cause I haven't been out of my nation for a while, and sometimes I forget what I need to know when I am all alone in a new country).

It still requires the government to do something - provide training books for languages, but now in the three most common languages for the region, so that if the region speaks French, German, Spanish and English, it need only publish in those languages. The idea of most common is not based on the size of nations, but the commonality of the languages between them

Eg : A nation with 6 billion people who all speak French is surrounded by five nations of 1 million who speak German, English, Italian, Latin and Tulan. While German is the most spoken language, the nations all use Latin to communicate, so all of them would be required to provide training booklets in Latin.

Issue with that - what if the entire area only speaks one language. Any suggestions?

Pros :
The government does not have to translate anything other than the training documents, and they need do that only once. Using the Global Library makes it publicly available to almost all nations, and having a copy at the Global Library makes it easy to send it to nations who can't access the said library.

Do not insist on too much - just to ensure people can learn the language if they chose to, and that anyone coming in to the country can see any dangers they might not be aware of (and so, hopefully, avoid a horrible death)

Ensuring that people can visit other nations safely, and be able to get by, even in emergencies, is something the UN should definitely be dealing with (I would say)


Cons :

Still requires the government to spend money. But I can't see a way around that. However all nations will now be affected equally (more or less), so that english speaking nations don't get off cheep.

Doesn't take account of all languages in the world. But to do that would require a lot more cost to the governments, and if no one who speaks Ellegante is going to visit my nation, it seems pointless putting up signs in that language.


So - that's the current revision. Suggestions? Comments?

Either it is a work of genius, and no one can find fault, or it is appalling, but not one cares :}

Either it is a work of genius, and no one can find fault, or it is appalling, but not one cares :}

OOC:

I didn't ignore this. For some reason, it wasn't flagged as having new posts until just now. (The Jolt forums trying to get their act together?)

The draft raises a question similar to one you raised in another thread about the effect of repeals. The resolution establishing "The Global Library" was passed on 7 January and repealed on 19 February. The repeal was couched in terms of the impracticality of establishing the library. So does it exist?

OOC:

I didn't ignore this. For some reason, it wasn't flagged as having new posts until just now. (The Jolt forums trying to get their act together?)


I thought that might be a reason, so I posted a not so subtle question that made this look like more than your average bump :}


The draft raises a question similar to one you raised in another thread about the effect of repeals. The resolution establishing "The Global Library" was passed on 7 January and repealed on 19 February. The repeal was couched in terms of the impracticality of establishing the library. So does it exist?

Yes - there was a further resolution called (I believe) The Global Library Co-illition (thought it might have been spelt better than that)

Yes - there was a further resolution called (I believe) The Global Library Co-illition (thought it might have been spelt better than that)

OOC:

Just goes to show I should have looked further down the list of resolutions. Sorry. Resolution #97 is the "Universal Library Coalition", and the thing it established is the Universal Library. So if "Global" is changed to "Universal", my poorly researched question goes away.