NationStates Jolt Archive

Argument: The nation of Caradune is shocked at the amount of school children that do not have basic access to a computer.

This resolution requires all nations to provide each child that is in high school with a computer.

The computers will be provided by corporations in order to advertise their company and their computers. The company will also attract customers because of public opinion do to the generous donation by the corporation.

The computers that will be donated must be able to support a basic internet browser and must be able to support educational software.

The computer that will be provided for each school student is an AMD SEMPRON which is a basic computer that is relatively cheap.

In order to keep costs down for corporations the computers will only be equipped with the necessary software for educational purposes.

If a student needs to take a computer home it must be signed out. Serial numbers and other information will be taken to prevent theft. When the computer is returned the it will be checked for pornography, viruses, and other inappropriate material.

When a student graduates from high school his/her computer will be formatted and the computer will be upgraded with the latest NECESSARY software and will be given to another student that is entering high school.

A 24/7 technical team will be at hand in case a problem with the computer occurs. If a computer is damaged or beyond repair it will be sent to the U.N. headquarters for repair or replacement.

The computers serve another purpose, as you may or may not know the 21st century will become the computer era. As we grow more and more dependent on computers a basic knowledg of computer technology is necessary for work and everyday life in the real world.

Caradune would like to thank love and esterel for the help editing and revising this resolution.

Argument: The nation of Caradune is shocked at the amount of school children that do not have basic access to a computer.

If this is in your proposal, it counts as a violation of the branding rule. Remove your name when you rewrite.

This resolution requires all nations to provide each child that is in high school with a computer.

The computers will be provided by corporations in order to advertise their company and their computers. The company will also attract customers because of public opinion do to the generous donation by the corporation.

The computers that will be donated must be able to support a basic internet browser and must be able to support educational software.

The computer that will be provided for each school student is an AMD SEMPRON which is a basic computer that is relatively cheap.

In order to keep costs down for corporations the computers will only be equipped with the necessary software for educational purposes.

If a student needs to take a computer home it must be signed out. Serial numbers and other information will be taken to prevent theft. When the computer is returned the it will be checked for pornography, viruses, and other inappropriate material.

When a student graduates from high school his/her computer will be formatted and the computer will be upgraded with the latest NECESSARY software and will be given to another student that is entering high school.

A 24/7 technical team will be at hand in case a problem with the computer occurs. If a computer is damaged or beyond repair it will be sent to the U.N. headquarters for repair or replacement.

Okay, you're running into technology problems with this. First off, not all UN members are at the same technology levels. I know of more than a few where computers are far less advanced, while some of us are advanced enough that the computer type you recommend is actually a step or more backwards (three steps backwards in my case). I think you should keep in mind the variances in computer advancement between nations when you rewrite.

And, please, no requiring the more advanced nations give the less advanced ones computers. We don't need everyone running around with laptops that use quantum entanglement and are powered by microscopic black holes in nations that are still trying to figure out nuclear physics. I know my technicians would be puzzled as to how to repair those things.

The computers serve another purpose, as you may or may not know the 21st century will become the computer era. As we grow more and more dependent on computers a basic knowledg of computer technology is necessary for work and everyday life in the real world.

Hrm. I do not believe this is needed. I would drop it.

Caradune would like to thank love and esterel for the help editing and revising this resolution.

Drop your nation name. Now, once you are done with this I will talk about the suggestions for format.

Argument: The nation of Caradune is shocked at the amount of school children that do not have basic access to a computer.

This resolution requires all nations to provide each child that is in high school with a computer.

The computers will be provided by corporations in order to advertise their company and their computers. The company will also attract customers because of public opinion do to the generous donation by the corporation.

The computers that will be donated must be able to support a basic internet browser and must be able to support educational software.

The computer that will be provided for each school student is an AMD SEMPRON which is a basic computer that is relatively cheap.

In order to keep costs down for corporations the computers will only be equipped with the necessary software for educational purposes.

If a student needs to take a computer home it must be signed out. Serial numbers and other information will be taken to prevent theft. When the computer is returned the it will be checked for pornography, viruses, and other inappropriate material.

When a student graduates from high school his/her computer will be formatted and the computer will be upgraded with the latest NECESSARY software and will be given to another student that is entering high school.

A 24/7 technical team will be at hand in case a problem with the computer occurs. If a computer is damaged or beyond repair it will be sent to the U.N. headquarters for repair or replacement.

The computers serve another purpose, as you may or may not know the 21st century will become the computer era. As we grow more and more dependent on computers a basic knowledg of computer technology is necessary for work and everyday life in the real world.

Caradune would like to thank love and esterel for the help editing and revising this resolution.


Problems:

1. Ref:"The nation of Caradune is shocked at the amount of school children that do not have basic access to a computer."; "This resolution requires all nations to provide each child that is in high school with a computer."; "The computers serve another purpose, as you may or may not know the 21st century will become the computer era. As we grow more and more dependent on computers a basic knowledg of computer technology is necessary for work and everyday life in the real world." - Not all nationstates are ModernTech or better. There are countless which are PastTech and do not posess of have the capacity to produce computers are similar technology.

2. Ref:"The computers will be provided by corporations in order to advertise their company and their computers."; "In order to keep costs down for corporations the computers will only be equipped with the necessary software for educational purposes." - This concept ignores the fact that not all nationstates are capitalistic or based on some form of market-economics. It is impossible for socialist or communal states to participate.

3. Ref:"The computer that will be provided for each school student is an AMD SEMPRON which is a basic computer that is relatively cheap."; "If a computer is damaged or beyond repair it will be sent to the U.N. headquarters for repair or replacement." - This ignores FutureTech states, The AMD Semperons are ancient technology by Tekanian standards, and why are the repairs centralized to the United Nations?

4. Ref:"The computers serve another purpose, as you may or may not know the 21st century will become the computer era. As we grow more and more dependent on computers a basic knowledg of computer technology is necessary for work and everyday life in the real world."; "...AMD SEMPRON..." - Real World refferences must be deleted. NationStates is not the "Real World". Not all of us are in "the 21st century" some of us are past that be centuries, some of us are earlier than that by centuries; and some of us are not even in the same "plane" of existance that encompasses the idea.

I Support this proposal when all of the amendments have been added.

Also one other point, how is the U.N going to handle all of the Broken Computers?, 1. There will probably will not be enough space and computer repair ers and 2, Fixing all of those computers will take a long time to transport and fix.

Just change it to "The computer manufacturers will fix the computers on the spot or the computer can be sent to the local repair shop or recalled back to factory.", Or something similar to this.

One other point some countries may not want free computers, because they already have advanced computers in school, one other reason is becuase of political and religious reasons.

Also one last point, what about the University Students?, they can not afford a Computer, the free computer offer does not have to end at high school.

One other thing some countries may not want

But overall it is a very good proposal :)

Caradune, as i like very much your proposal, as you asked me by telegram to help you to improve it, as i already given you some ideas, few weeks ago, when you submit it first and you get more than 100 approvals
=> here is a draft i advice you, but it's not ready and we need to improve it again:

___________________________________
The United Nations,

-A- SHOCKED by the mount of children worldwide who do not have basic access to a computer and internet

-B- CONVINCED that the mastering of information Technology is essential in the education of every child worldwide and for his own future

-C- FULLY AWARE of the difference of technology level between member nations

-D- SEEKING to minimize the cost of the following clauses


-1- MANDATES all nations to provide each child, aged more than 12, Information technology education; this can be integrated into National education programs.

-2- MANDATES all Nations to secure that every child, aged more than 12, has a computer for himself with educational software and internet access at least at school. Computers and internet access should be sold or rent at a very modest price or given to children not able to afford them.

-3- ENCOURAGES all Nations to try to limit the cost induced by paragraph [2], by:

-3.1- Running the computers mentioned in [2] with open-source software, freeware or software graciously paid or discounted by companies, as a marketing operation for them

-3.2- Proposing some companies to graciously offer some computers, internet access and technical support, as a marketing operation for them which can prove more efficient than a TV ads campaign

-4- ENCOURAGES all developed Nations to help developing Nations to implement this program, by:

-4.1- Sharing technologies with Nations who don’t have access to computers and Internet

-4.2- Giving access to these nations to a low rate loan/bonds system, which will be repaid in middle term by the growth of the amount of taxes collected due to the growth of information technology economic sector

It is ludicrous to suggest each nation have computers. Some nations have technological advancements that make the computer you're suggesting useless, other nations simply don't have good enough technology to comply with this resolution, and still others may not want their children to have computers and other such things for religious reasons. Also, I agree with the ambassador from the CRoT that this discrminates against those nations that do not follow your beliefs about economy.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

It is ludicrous to suggest each nation have computers. Some nations have technological advancements that make the computer you're suggesting useless, other nations simply don't have good enough technology to comply with this resolution

-4- ENCOURAGES all developed Nations to help developing Nations to implement this program, by:

-4.1- Sharing technologies with Nations who don’t have access to computers and Internet

-4.2- Giving access to these nations to a low rate loan/bonds system, which will be repaid in middle term by the growth of the amount of taxes collected due to the growth of information technology economic sector


=> maybe we can say that developping nations have 5 years to comply with -1- and -2-, will it be ok for you?


and still others may not want their children to have computers and other such things for religious reasons.

i hope your your nation is not one of those, this belief doesn't belong to "religions" but to "sects"

The computers will be provided by corporations in order to advertise their company and their computers. The company will also attract customers because of public opinion do to the generous donation by the corporation.

The computers that will be donated must be able to support a basic internet browser and must be able to support educational software.

So not only must every school possess adequate room and power sockets for 30+ computers, not only must every school pay for the huge increase in electrical costs this will generate, but every school must now supply each child with an expensive internet connection as well?

Thank you for dooming the education systems of thousands of economically backward member nations to bankruptcy, while cigarette companies advertise their carcinogenic death-sticks on every monitor in the classroom.

-4- ENCOURAGES all developed Nations to help developing Nations to implement this program, by:

-4.1- Sharing technologies with Nations who don’t have access to computers and Internet

-4.2- Giving access to these nations to a low rate loan/bonds system, which will be repaid in middle term by the growth of the amount of taxes collected due to the growth of information technology economic sector

This bit is actually even more problematic than I thought.

-4.1- How the hell is it even appropriate to share such technology with nations that aren't ready for it?

-4.2- Some nations don't tax businesses. The Federation is one of them.


=> maybe we can say that developping nations have 5 years to comply with -1- and -2-, will it be ok for you?

Nope. See above.

i hope your your nation is not one of those, this belief doesn't belong to "religions" but to "sects"

My nation is not one of those, no. And I'll call it religious, since "sectarian" doesn't quite provide the same clarity of meaning because of its connotation.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

This bit is actually even more problematic than I thought.

-4.1- How the hell is it even appropriate to share such technology with nations that aren't ready for it?

thanks for your comments
you are right, some nation ar not ready for it => we must encourages them, this is what this proposition do



-4.2- Some nations don't tax businesses. The Federation is one of them.

ok, the growth of information technology will grow economy => national total income will go up => income taxes (not the % of course but the total) will go up ... this is a virtuous cycle






My nation is not one of those, no.

oufff, i was afraid



I'll call it religious, since "sectarian" doesn't quite provide the same clarity of meaning because of its connotation.

when a belief fight "knowledge" it cannot be "relligious" so it belong to sects

some beliefs can be good, some can be bad

it's the same as natural laws:
some natural things are good, some are bad (as tsunami for example)

thanks for your comments
you are right, some nation ar not ready for it => we must encourages them, this is what this proposition do

Then encourage folks to share technology "with nations that are developmentally and financially ready to provide an infrastructure and education system that will be appropriate to the technology, and share only where your nation can afford to do so without negatively impacting its own citizens."

ok, the growth of information technology will grow economy => national total income will go up => income taxes (not the % of course but the total) will go up ... this is a virtuous cycle

Why would the Federation raise income taxes to fund this in the first place? We already provide suitable computing technology to students and have a very well-funded and comprehensive skills-based education system.

when a belief fight "knowledge" it cannot be "relligious" so it belong to sects

I have no idea what you're trying to say with this. Could you clarify?

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

Then encourage folks to share technology "with nations that are developmentally and financially ready to provide an infrastructure and education system that will be appropriate to the technology, and share only where your nation can afford to do so without negatively impacting its own citizens."


thanks, we understand this proposition must deal more about develloping nations, and we are thinking about it to make improvments
hovewer, i'm sorry i don't fully understand what you mean, i really think it can help us, if you may clarify a little bit, thanks a lot


Why would the Federation raise income taxes to fund this in the first place? We already provide suitable computing technology to students and have a very well-funded and comprehensive skills-based education system.


i'm really happy tro read that
if your nation "already provide suitable computing technology to students..."
=> implementing this proposition (if passed) will be very easy and cheap fo your nation, maybe it will even cost nothing at all


I have no idea what you're trying to say with this. Could you clarify?

sorry, if i was confuse, maybe not an easy topic, i will try in this post to be more explicit

you stated:

and still others may not want their children to have computers and other such things for religious reasons

- i don't know any religion with such a belief?, please may you let us know

- many beliefs are obvioulsy good, but some are obviously bad
=> so when you say that something is against one belief, how could you consider it's an argument

i used "natural laws" as an example for you:
as:
- some natural things are good, some are bad
- some not natural things are good, some are bad

=> in the same way you cannot say that:
- something is good because it's natural,
- something is bad because it's natural
- something is good because it's not natural
- something is bad because it's not natural

=> your sentence is not an argument

Having recently worked in a shop that was intended to supply computers to schools and students, I have a few comments to make on this proposal. However, due to a homework crunch this week that should end by Friday, I am unable to reply yet. I would like to ask the author to hold on submitting this proposal before I have had a chance to give input.

Having recently worked in a shop that was intended to supply computers to schools and students, I have a few comments to make on this proposal. However, due to a homework crunch this week that should end by Friday, I am unable to reply yet. I would like to ask the author to hold on submitting this proposal before I have had a chance to give input.

thanks a lot for your future help, as you, i hope the author will wait for your input and maybe others

thanks, we understand this proposition must deal more about develloping nations, and we are thinking about it to make improvments
hovewer, i'm sorry i don't fully understand what you mean, i really think it can help us, if you may clarify a little bit, thanks a lot

I was suggesting that the clause -4.1- be re-written in accord with my quoted statement.

if your nation "already provide suitable computing technology to students..."
=> implementing this proposition (if passed) will be very easy and cheap fo your nation, maybe it will even cost nothing at all

Very true. Considering the nature of Federation's compliance as of the passage of "Promotion of Solar Panels," I doubt it would cost us anything. Good point.


- i don't know any religion with such a belief?, please may you let us know

OOC: The Amish

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish4.htm

IC:

There are certain portions of the Combustian community (Automobilicans) that will use no technology aside from that required to operate their automobiles. For general information on Combustianism, see this article (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Combustianism). Note that this article does not mention all sects of Combustianism and does not address the Automobilicans in particular.

- many beliefs are obvioulsy good, but some are obviously bad
=> so when you say that something is against one belief, how could you consider it's an argument

Do you feel it appropriate to trample on the beliefs of others, particularly when it is their choice to believe as they do and not a product of coercion?

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

I was suggesting that the clause -4.1- be re-written in accord with my quoted statement.

thanks, i really appreciate your help as i agree 4.1 need to be improved, but i just don't know where is your "quoted statement"


Very true. Considering the nature of Federation's compliance as of the passage of "Promotion of Solar Panels," I doubt it would cost us anything. Good point.

thanks

OOC: The Amish

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish4.htm

hum, hum, i'am not easy with the following on the page you mentionned:

"the Amish do not allow women to hold positions of power" !?


are you sure it doesn't violate:

#80 Rights of Minorities and Women
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7565919&postcount=81

"ARTICLE II- Males and Females should be treated as equals"




IC:

There are certain portions of the Combustian community (Automobilicans) that will use no technology aside from that required to operate their automobiles. For general information on Combustianism, see this article (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Combustianism). Note that this article does not mention all sects of Combustianism and does not address the Automobilicans in particular.

interesting...
- don't Automobilicans use electricity?
- are their car are produced without electricity?
- do they use light only from fire or petrol lamp?
- do they never ever go to hospitals?
- do they never ever send their Children to hospitals wheen needed?
- do they never ever use phone?
- do they never ever send mail, as it can be transferred by train or plane?
- do they never ever listen radio?




Do you feel it appropriate to trample on the beliefs of others, particularly when it is their choice to believe as they do and not a product of coercion?

as i have said to you in my previous post, some beliefs are good others are bad
=> it's not an argument

if you think this belief is justifiable => please try to express yourself and say why this belief is justifiable

thanks, i really appreciate your help as i agree 4.1 need to be improved, but i just don't know where is your "quoted statement"

You said:


thanks for your comments
you are right, some nation ar not ready for it => we must encourages them, this is what this proposition do

I replied:

Then encourage folks to share technology "with nations that are developmentally and financially ready to provide an infrastructure and education system that will be appropriate to the technology, and share only where your nation can afford to do so without negatively impacting its own citizens."

Note the quotation marks in my reply.

[Start OOC Comments]

hum, hum, i'am not easy with the following on the page you mentionned:

"the Amish do not allow women to hold positions of power" !?

From the page I linked to:

Electrical devices: They do not use electricity, or have radios, TV sets, personal computers, computer games, etc.

are you sure it doesn't violate:

#80 Rights of Minorities and Women
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7565919&postcount=81

"ARTICLE II- Males and Females should be treated as equals"

I'm sure Amish practice violates a couple of resolutions, but that's not particularly relevant to this proposal we're discussing.

[End OOC Comments]

interesting...
- don't Automobilicans use electricity?
- are their car are produced without electricity?
- do they use light only from fire or petrol lamp?
- do they never ever go to hospitals?
- do they never ever send their Children to hospitals wheen needed?
- do they never ever use phone?
- do they never ever send mail, as it can be transferred by train or plane?
- do they never ever listen radio?

They only use electricity in their cars, generally in the form of batteries. They live in self-contained agricultural communities, use imported hebal medicines to treat illness, walk over to their neighbor's house if they need to tell them something, and don't have much interest in radio, even for news. If anything bad happens, it's the will of Supercarious and they'll deal with it when it gets there rather than using the radio alert systems.

as i have said to you in my previous post, some beliefs are good others are bad
=> it's not an argument

It's not, that's true. You make absolutely no argument when you state that some beliefs are good and others are bad. You simply make an assertion.

if you think this belief is justifiable => please try to express yourself and say why this belief is justifiable

What belief? I've already proven that some folks have religious reasons for not wanting computers, and my only other statement on the subject was a question about your beliefs.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

Argument: The nation of Caradune is shocked at the amount of school children that do not have basic access to a computer.

This resolution requires all nations to provide each child that is in high school with a computer.

I'm sorry... excuse us? Each child in high school? Their own computer?

In Reformentia we currently have a high-school aged population of over 80 million. That means you are requiring us to provide 80 million computers.

Let's say we can just go absolute bargain basement on these systems and buy them for only 500 credits apeice... that still means you want us to spend 40 billlion credits on this one initiative.

Excuse us if we prefer to let students make communal use of the computer science labs many of our schools are equipped with... or, if they're really desperate, their local library.

The computers will be provided by corporations in order to advertise their company and their computers.

The company will also attract customers because of public opinion do to the generous donation by the corporation.

Excuse us? "Generous donation"? Contributions required by law are neither generous nor donations.

The computer that will be provided for each school student is an AMD SEMPRON which is a basic computer that is relatively cheap.

We have never heard of this company or computer type in Reformentia.

If a student needs to take a computer home it must be signed out. Serial numbers and other information will be taken to prevent theft. When the computer is returned the it will be checked for pornography, viruses, and other inappropriate material.

Lovely, we need to budget for a screening operation at every single school as well...

When a student graduates from high school his/her computer will be formatted and the computer will be upgraded with the latest NECESSARY software and will be given to another student that is entering high school.

You have high hopes for the useable lifetime of a computer system in the hands of highschool students we see... even putting aside issues of hardware obsolesence.

A 24/7 technical team will be at hand in case a problem with the computer occurs.

Because money grows on trees in our education ministries...

If a computer is damaged or beyond repair it will be sent to the U.N. headquarters for repair or replacement.

Yes... the damaged or beyond repair computers from all 30+ thousand member nations and their hundreds of billions of high school aged students will all be quite welcome at UN headquarters.

Heads up janitorial staff.

The computers serve another purpose, as you may or may not know the 21st century will become the computer era.

We did not know. It's the 23rd century here in Reformentia. The 21st century was... unpleasant. It is certainly not referred to as the 'computer era'.

The United Socialist States of Garbage Bag Johnny cannot support this proposal. The equipping of every high school student with a computer would not only be costly, but would cause several other nuiscances. For example, if every teenager in the world had internet access, the internet would be overrun with billions of crappy blogs detailing every mundane detail of the lives of the students. The internet would be clogged, and a countless number of new facilitations would have to be made.

Also, we fundamentally disagree with the censorship of pornography.

Love,
USSGBJ

Thank you to all the nations that have replied to this proposal. I will definitely take your ideas into consideration and will continue to take ideas for about a week. I am going to change the information about the computers and exclude the part about AMD Sempron. I will also take my name out of the proposal and am currently editing this proposal and hope to make it ready for approval within a few days after taking your ideas.

Caradune

Then encourage folks to share technology "with nations that are developmentally and financially ready to provide an infrastructure and education system that will be appropriate to the technology, and share only where your nation can afford to do so without negatively impacting its own citizens."


ok thanks, but i'm really sorry, i don't undestand what it means, please forgive me about that, i will be very grateful if you can clarify it.


I'm sure Amish practice violates a couple of resolutions, but that's not particularly relevant to this proposal we're discussing.

yes it's relevant, because if they already violate a couple of resolution => the odds are high that future resolution will hurt their beliefs once more


how do they justify the following, please?

"the Amish do not allow women to hold positions of power" !?


They only use electricity in their cars, generally in the form of batteries. They live in self-contained agricultural communities, use imported hebal medicines to treat illness, walk over to their neighbor's house if they need to tell them something, and don't have much interest in radio, even for news. If anything bad happens, it's the will of Supercarious and they'll deal with it when it gets there rather than using the radio alert systems.

Do these people live in the nation of Texan Hotrodders? did you governemnt proposed them hospitals care when needed for their children? did they refuse?


It's not, that's true. You make absolutely no argument when you state that some beliefs are good and others are bad. You simply make an assertion.

Are you believing that every belief of every human being is true?

please, may i remind you Giordano Bruno, an astronomer who was executed as an heretic because he argumented heliocentrism and that implied that some beliefs (geocentrism) was false

"Four hundred years after his execution, official expression of "profound sorrow" and acknowledgement of error at Bruno's condemnation to death was made, during the papacy of John Paul II"
from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

There are certain portions of the Combustian community (Automobilicans) that will use no technology aside from that required to operate their automobiles. For general information on Combustianism, see this article (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Combustianism).


anyway, Automobilicans child will be given some computers if this proposition pass, they will not be forced to use it at home

ok thanks, but i'm really sorry, i don't undestand what it means, please forgive me about that, i will be very grateful if you can clarify it.

OOC: I don't think I can clarify it much further. What language do you speak at home?

yes it's relevant, because if they already violate a couple of resolution => the odds are high that future resolution will hurt their beliefs once more

OOC: I don't follow your reasoning. Are you saying that the Amish are to be ignored since they are in violation of previous resolutions?

how do they justify the following, please?

"the Amish do not allow women to hold positions of power" !?

They take that principle from the Bible, specifically a verse in one of the Pauline writings.

Do these people live in the nation of Texan Hotrodders? did you governemnt proposed them hospitals care when needed for their children? did they refuse?

The Federation does not offer people hospital care. It is available for free for those who want it. Most people choose to provide for their own healthcare through private companies and facilities, and others such as the Automobilicans choose to provide for their own healthcare for religious reasons.

Are you believing that every belief of every human being is true?

Certainly not. But that's not what we were discussing. You said that some beliefs are "good" and others are "bad". Unless you were equivocating on those words, they do not mean the same as "true" and "false".

please, may i remind you Giordano Bruno, an astronomer who was executed as an heretic because he argumented heliocentrism and that implied that some beliefs (geocentrism) was false

Yes. And some liberal secularists would crucify those who would argue that homosexuality is often due in part to psychological trauma induced by an irresponsible parent seeking to satisfy their own sexual urges with a child who was unable to consent. Welcome to the glorious world of people who harm each other because of their beliefs rather than respecting each other. Welcome...to the UN.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

_Myopia_ is a poor nation. We do our best to provide a good state education system, and our children are educated in the use of computers to the best of our ability. But we will not make our childrens' educations dependent on businesses' PR stunts - we refuse to let corporate sponsorship into the classroom in any form. Quite apart from that, a very large proportion of our populace cannot afford a home computer, and therefore corporations would have much less to gain from this kind of "charitable" gesture - and thus would probably be unwilling to participate.

Having one computer per student is an excessive luxury, not a need. If more money were to be put into education, there are more useful things that could be achieved.

Additionally, we do not have this "high school" you speak of. Perhaps you ought to take into account the fact that even some of those nations role-playing in the same period as you are not the same as your nation. Our economies and systems differ wildly.

_Myopia_ is a poor nation. We do our best to provide a good state education system, and our children are educated in the use of computers to the best of our ability. But we will not make our childrens' educations dependent on businesses' PR stunts - we refuse to let corporate sponsorship into the classroom in any form. Quite apart from that, a very large proportion of our populace cannot afford a home computer, and therefore corporations would have much less to gain from this kind of "charitable" gesture - and thus would probably be unwilling to participate.

Having one computer per student is an excessive luxury, not a need. If more money were to be put into education, there are more useful things that could be achieved.

Additionally, we do not have this "high school" you speak of. Perhaps you ought to take into account the fact that even some of those nations role-playing in the same period as you are not the same as your nation. Our economies and systems differ wildly.


hum, maybe you right and it will be better to uses "STRONGLY URGES" instead of "requires" or "mandates"

i suppose "mandates" is ok about information technology education in your nation?

Yes... the damaged or beyond repair computers from all 30+ thousand member nations and their hundreds of billions of high school aged students will all be quite welcome at UN headquarters.

Heads up janitorial staff.
Actually should this pass, and we hope it doesn't, the repairs would be handled by our IT department, and they're already kept busy just keeping the computers in the UN building functioning.

Bill Smithers
UN Building General Manager

There are certain portions of the Combustian community (Automobilicans) that will use no technology aside from that required to operate their automobiles. For general information on Combustianism, see this article (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Combustianism). Note that this article does not mention all sects of Combustianism and does not address the Automobilicans in particular.
Do the Combustians or the Automobilicans send out missionaries? If so, we know of a nation of '77 Camaro enthusiasts who would welcome a visit from them.

maybe "sponsorship" is better than marketing in 3.1 and 3.2

- i don't know any religion with such a belief?, please may you let us know

- many beliefs are obvioulsy good, but some are obviously bad
=> so when you say that something is against one belief, how could you consider it's an argument

A realworld scenario would be the Anabaptist group known as "Amish" who, while not being "technophobes" really, are very careful in the use of technology, considering some to be destructive to "community" (having radios, telephones, etc. in the house disrupts the family unit); and thus "disapprove" of those technologies.

While CRoT is Far-Future, we must recognize that it is up to communities to make determinations which are effective in the concern of their community alone. (You can consider this the socio-cultural concept of the National Sovereignty movement)... To recognize that international law should only be "wielded" in those cases where there is international impact.... Justice, for example, is an international concern; all states expect their citizens to be treated in a just manner in all states.... However, punishment instituted is a sociological concern, of impact and applicability to a single culture/state. Warfare is of an international concern, but operation and evaluation of military assets is limited to singular state. That all people have access to basic education is an international concern (to instruct one in the rearing and introduction to their socio-culture/state), but the form, methods and content of that educational model is only applicable to the singular state.

So here's the final posed question: What is the intent and purpose of requiring the use and availability of a specific technology (really, at any particular level of education); and what is the international significance in the imposition of such purpose/plan or idea?

So here's the final posed question: What is the intent and purpose of requiring the use and availability of a specific technology (really, at any particular level of education); and what is the international significance in the imposition of such purpose/plan or idea?

"-B- CONVINCED that the mastering of information Technology is essential in the education of every child worldwide and for his own future"

for 99,99% of child, today, those who don't have information Technology education will be penalized compared to those who have

=> this proposition is a very important step to give equal chance to every child in the world and not let only their chance to child from rich nations or child with rich parents

yes it's relevant, because if they already violate a couple of resolution => the odds are high that future resolution will hurt their beliefs once more

how do they justify the following, please?

"the Amish do not allow women to hold positions of power" !?

Do these people live in the nation of Texan Hotrodders? did you governemnt proposed them hospitals care when needed for their children? did they refuse?

Are you believing that every belief of every human being is true?

please, may i remind you Giordano Bruno, an astronomer who was executed as an heretic because he argumented heliocentrism and that implied that some beliefs (geocentrism) was false

"Four hundred years after his execution, official expression of "profound sorrow" and acknowledgement of error at Bruno's condemnation to death was made, during the papacy of John Paul II"
from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

#1, Amish communities would not be in violation of such resolution: Resolutions are binding upon states, but not sub-communities.

#2, There are communities of similtude to the Amish within the Republic. Ones which are overtly cautious in their use of technology and inter-relations with the overal social-state in general. And have delineated social-positioning in the culture adopted by the members of that culture, delineated functions for members of the community adopted by those in that community. Am I to assume you construe Article II as requiring that people be forced in violation of Article III into positions and functions to which they do not believe? The CRoT does not go to such militant extremisms as to force people to be functionally "equal"; as we know such an assertion is absurd. Equality is a legal equality; not a functional one of all form. One law cannot be used to violate another one. Merely making statement or providing assurance that all people have the right to be considered equal, or wield equal power/authority communally; If one believes their purpose is to serve another based upon their personal beliefs; we are not going to violate those beliefs for the sake of supposed "equality" and "liberty"; as it is no longer either.

#3, I don't believe that every belief of every human being is true; but in accordance with Article III, I believe each person is entitled to their own beliefs; and that I am not capable of one religious, social or cultural belief is above, or has merit over another. The Pyretikos of Celestus, for example are communal in nature; the species existing as component hives, each "hive" while composed of multiple "entities" operates as a single "person". While the overal Republic honors individuality (being composed maintly of individualistic human, tekaniou and Constructs); we recognize, and can adapt to the needs of our Celestian "Brothers" in the Republic, and not force some model of independance against their will upon units of such a structure (which would effectively destroy their entire race; in this case, imposition of certain individualistic ideologies mandated in law would effective turn into a genocidal attack upon the entirety of another race/culture/species)... Conformity of the Hive mind within the Celestians is not an operaiton of force, but a hard-wired state of being... You can no more require someone to indivudality against their will; than you can require someone into alien senses of "equality" against their will... One wonders if your nation-state is even capable of adequately conforming with such aspects of international-laws regarding the libertine independence of the person; even when such self-determination allows them the freedom to operate in manners or set themselves in functions and placement in their unit; to which does not conform with your sense of form and function. When you begin to violate the direction of one's self-determination because they don't proceed along the path your would have choosen; you give up all creedence as to being centered around equality and freedom...

"-B- CONVINCED that the mastering of information Technology is essential in the education of every child worldwide and for his own future"

for 99,99% of child, today, those who don't have information Technology education will be penalized compared to those who have

=> this proposition is a very important step to give equal chance to every child in the world and not let only their chance to child from rich nations or child with rich parents

Doesn't quite work. For one, the "argument" is not based on reasoning. It's a statement, and not an argument at all.

The second part is limited in scope, and only applied within a particular community. In an information age society the statement is true; but becomes meaningless in societies outside of, or before such IT realms.

In the third point, the concept of providing "equal chance" is a meaningless assertion. There is no "Step" to "equality" when the "Equality" base is that of practical functional concern, because functional equality does not, and never will exist in societies composed of individuals. A child on Tekaniou has the "Chance" of entering fields of galatic exploration: does a child in Love and Esterel have the same chance? People can be legally and practically "equal"; but functional "equality" does not exist in Humans, in Tekaniou or indeed most races... Rich is a very subjective term.... nations which are technologically "rich" automaticaly can provide more for the education of their children, having access to more research, access to a longer history of technological achievment, access to better facilities, access to more resources... Whether a nation has the capacity to provide information technologies to their children's education has no international impact what-so-ever.

OOC: I don't think I can clarify it much further. What language do you speak at home?



OOC: I don't follow your reasoning. Are you saying that the Amish are to be ignored since they are in violation of previous resolutions?



They take that principle from the Bible, specifically a verse in one of the Pauline writings.



The Federation does not offer people hospital care. It is available for free for those who want it. Most people choose to provide for their own healthcare through private companies and facilities, and others such as the Automobilicans choose to provide for their own healthcare for religious reasons.



Certainly not. But that's not what we were discussing. You said that some beliefs are "good" and others are "bad". Unless you were equivocating on those words, they do not mean the same as "true" and "false".



Yes. And some liberal secularists would crucify those who would argue that homosexuality is often due in part to psychological trauma induced by an irresponsible parent seeking to satisfy their own sexual urges with a child who was unable to consent. Welcome to the glorious world of people who harm each other because of their beliefs rather than respecting each other. Welcome...to the UN.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

To Texan Hotrodders's Minister of UN Affairs,

The people of The Most Serene Republic of Love and esterel will fully appreciate your public apologize for this post

Well first of all I would like to say that those certain groups of people that don't use technology probably home school their kids because school's obviously use some sort of machinery. If these people homeschool their children then there is no need to worry about them because they are not part of the public school system. I would also like to take into account the fact that these computers are expensive and paying for them would bring about a national deficit so I would like to focus on solutions to this problem first. I have recieved plenty of good ideas so far but I would like to get more so I can get a general idea of how to supply them. (Corporations would probably donate them but I would like to get other opinions first) Thank you for all your help I really appreciate it.

Caradune

To Texan Hotrodders's Minister of UN Affairs,

The people of The Most Serene Republic of Love and esterel will fully appreciate your public apologize for this post

Why would I apologize? You need to let me know what I did wrong in order for me to apologize for it.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

Do the Combustians or the Automobilicans send out missionaries? If so, we know of a nation of '77 Camaro enthusiasts who would welcome a visit from them.

Combustians, specifically the Order of Supercarious, do send out missionaries, yes. Perhaps the Order will send a missionary to the '77 Camaro enthusists, but I am not certain that they would do so, given that I am not a member of the Order.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

To Texan Hotrodders's Minister of UN Affairs,

The people of The Most Serene Republic of Love and esterel will fully appreciate your public apologize for this post

We see no reason for the Minister of UN Affairs, from Texan Hotrodders should apologize. They've merely countered your points, as a normal debate should happen.

- Euroslavian UN Representative,
Robert Foster

Why would I apologize? You need to let me know what I did wrong in order for me to apologize for it.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones


1
in the same thread you asked me to clarify a point, i don't no if i achieved to do it but at least i tried

then, i tasked you humbly to clarify another point

OOC: I don't think I can clarify it much further. What language do you speak at home?

thanks for your nice answer

and yes, i don't speak your native language at home

=> do you have a problem with people not speaking your native language at home?

http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Category:Languages

2
And some liberal secularists would crucify those who would argue that homosexuality is often due in part to psychological trauma induced by an irresponsible parent seeking to satisfy their own sexual urges with a child who was unable to consent. Welcome to the glorious world of people who harm each other because of their beliefs rather than respecting each other

you may think it was subttle, sorry no it's offensive

=> do you have a problem with people living freely a sexuality different that yours?

3
you mentionned in the forum and almost justified without a single argument the following webpage:


http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish4.htm

which contain the following offensive sexist and misogyn content

"the Amish do not allow women to hold positions of power"

=> do you have a problem with person having a different sex than yours?

This post will be entirely OOC since the whole thing is about an OOC source:

and yes, i don't speak your native language at home

=> do you have a problem with people not speaking your native language at home?

Not at all, dear. But if you want me to clarify points for you that you can't understand in English, then I can always try to express them in the language you speak at home. If you speak Spanish, French, or Japanese at home I may be able to clarify for you by using those languages.

you may think it was subttle, sorry no it's offensive

I'm sorry that you were offended, though I'm not sure why you were. I was not trying to insult you, only point out that being disrespectful of people's beliefs goes beyond one political ideology and is something that the UN is often guilty of.

=> do you have a problem with people living freely a sexuality different that yours?

Absolutely not. The Amish, however, do have very specific ideas about gender roles. I tend to disagree with the Amish on that subject.

you mentionned in the forum and almost justified without a single argument the following webpage:

That webpage was a source to prove that there are indeed groups that will not use computers because of their religious reasons. I never attempted to justify any of it because that had nothing to do with my point.

=> do you have a problem with person having a different sex than yours?

No. In fact, I'm very much attracted to those of the opposite sex and have great respect for their abilities.

This post will be entirely OOC since the whole thing is about an OOC source:



Not at all, dear. But if you want me to clarify points for you that you can't understand in English, then I can always try to express them in the language you speak at home. If you speak Spanish, French, or Japanese at home I may be able to clarify for you by using those languages.

thanks for your post

please, may you try to express them in bengali, thanks ;) :D

3
you mentionned in the forum and almost justified without a single argument the following webpage:



which contain the following offensive sexist and misogyn content

"the Amish do not allow women to hold positions of power"

=> do you have a problem with person having a different sex than yours?

The problem is, "the Amish" is in refference to a community in general (male and female)... Amongst the Amish (as well as many other similar communities); women do not hold positions of authority, such positions are relegated to men in the society alone... Each sex has social roles which are adhered to, in the community, very strictly.... And the adherance is based upon sincere belief (by both sexes)... They are Congregationalists; that is, the church is operated in locality only by the members of the local community.... including females.... offices are filled via congregational vote by all members (male and female) though only males hold office...

Misogysm is "hatred of women"... The roles they define for themselves are not based upon "Hatred", "sexism" or "elitism"... But rather are adhered to out of a sincere belief of established order by their God, and a willing model and commitment to those beliefs, and therefore roles.... You shouldn't confuse the issue falsely with "misogysm"... The adherence of the community to those standards is done by all members of that community, women included....

They are also not the only ones that adopt this position... There are other communal groups as well... some much more easy to raise into argument.... And in most of those, the women would disagree with you over the issue related to their belief in familial roles in the community group...

You can't force a community to change its beliefs.... And you can't assume to violate a woman's Article III rights in Rights of Minorites, while falsely purporting to do so based from Article II.

I believe that this discussion was started to help Caradune to edit his proposal,not to bicker over the beliefs of different nations. We're the United Nations, not the "Let's Bicker and Argue About Useless Crap Instead of Helping People Who Genuinely Need Assistance Coalition." So let's start acting a little more mature, and help Caradune out.

Having said that, I have some questions for Caradune:

1. Would these computers be given to students, or to schools?

2. Do you think it would be feasable to have them donated by the government instead of corporations in nations that do not have free economies?

3. Could it be feasable to do this in all nations?

Other than these concerns, I think it is a proposal worth voting for, and I would be happy to support it.

We're the United Nations, not the "Let's Bicker and Argue About Useless Crap Instead of Helping People Who Genuinely Need Assistance Coalition."

Actually, the latter is exactly what we are most of the time. That's a product of the way this organization is set up.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

_Myopia_ is a poor nation. We do our best to provide a good state education system, and our children are educated in the use of computers to the best of our ability. But we will not make our childrens' educations dependent on businesses' PR stunts - we refuse to let corporate sponsorship into the classroom in any form. Quite apart from that, a very large proportion of our populace cannot afford a home computer, and therefore corporations would have much less to gain from this kind of "charitable" gesture - and thus would probably be unwilling to participate.

Having one computer per student is an excessive luxury, not a need. If more money were to be put into education, there are more useful things that could be achieved.

Additionally, we do not have this "high school" you speak of. Perhaps you ought to take into account the fact that even some of those nations role-playing in the same period as you are not the same as your nation. Our economies and systems differ wildly.

_Myopia_, i think we have a really good news for your promising developping nation.

Some engineer in Massachussets designed a 100$ basic computer, they annonced that the first produced one will be presented in 2 month and they announced also they will build millions of them next year.

we really think that at 100$ each we will be able to improve this resolution and it will be more easy to get the needed funds

more informations here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4292854.stm
and
http://laptop.media.mit.edu/laptop-images.html

and yes, behind this is not a multi-national but a non-profit organisation

LAE that's great, if we are to assume that the development was paralleled in NS (not unreasonable). However, $100 per child, plus the substantial infrastructure changes needed, plus periodic maintenance and replacement still make this a very expensive effort - and anyway, the proposal would require corporate sponsorship, which we will not allow into our classrooms, whether or not we could afford to pay for it ourselves.

It really would be better just to aim to ensure that all children have access to a computer - not necessarily one each. This will still allow them to develop the computer skills needed to succeed in so many fields nowadays.

OOC: I'm at a state school which is by no means underfunded or poor quality, and we make do without each having our own computer. It simply isn't necessary.

OOC: I'm at a state school which is by no means underfunded or poor quality, and we make do without each having our own computer. It simply isn't necessary.

OOC: I'm also at a state school, and we have communal labs rather than one computer for each person. It works well most of the time.

Hang on...in Cobdenia, the only computer in existence is a great big thing that cracks codes and makes chocolate browny recipes. We won't have PC's for another forty years at least...

And we are certainly not developing, we are just sixty years in the past...

As promised, my input

Argument: The nation of Caradune is shocked at the amount of school children that do not have basic access to a computer.

This resolution requires all nations to provide each child that is in high school with a computer.

Now, this is for home use, or is this access to the computer at school?

The computers will be provided by corporations in order to advertise their company and their computers. The company will also attract customers because of public opinion do to the generous donation by the corporation.

You are assuming the corporation will donate it. Also, there are probably some nations that already have similar programs in place, only it is completely government funded. What if the nation does not allow private industry? Etc

The computers that will be donated must be able to support a basic internet browser and must be able to support educational software.

The computer that will be provided for each school student is an AMD SEMPRON which is a basic computer that is relatively cheap.

I think I saw something about you removing that requirement, but anyway - this is really dependant on the actual school system. Also, what is important today for education may not be important tomorrow, and what's important tomorrow we may not even have a clue about today. I doubt that if we had tried to do this 10 years ago, the requirements list would've been much longer than a word processor and printer port. Today, 'net connection is a bare minimum

In order to keep costs down for corporations the computers will only be equipped with the necessary software for educational purposes.

What if other corporations want to donate software that exceeds the minimum? What if the corporation doesn't mind adding certain software on? What if certain software is freeware, but is not the minimum? Who defines the minimum?

If a student needs to take a computer home it must be signed out. Serial numbers and other information will be taken to prevent theft. When the computer is returned the it will be checked for pornography, viruses, and other inappropriate material.

viruses->malicious programs (which includes viruses, worms, trojans, etc)

When a student graduates from high school his/her computer will be formatted and the computer will be upgraded with the latest NECESSARY software and will be given to another student that is entering high school.

Ah, I see you took my point about the original draft. However, while RAM and HD space are fairly upgradable, and Video cards are partially upgradable (not that you'd need to worry about the latter), the biggest issue is the processor, which quite simply can't be upgraded past a certain point. Like last time, I look at two students ago - 8 years. 8 years ago, I was getting my first computer - a PII 400MHz. I had Win98, 8GB HD, 64MB RAM, and 8MB Vid - by the time I was done, the RAM and Vid were upgraded (128 and 32, the latter to max), and I was in desperate need for a better operating system. WinXP (or, really, Win2K) would not have done so hot on there. If we look at 3 students ago, 12 years, we're talking Windows 3.1 - 16bit processing. You can't do **** with Win 3.1, and those machines can't do **** with the stuff we need today.

Also, if these computers stay at school unless signed out, this clause is illogical. You might as well have the student's personal files on a local network, and he could either SSH the files over or just map the personal files onto the hard drive for the night, check the folder in the morning before putting it back onto the server.

A 24/7 technical team will be at hand in case a problem with the computer occurs. If a computer is damaged or beyond repair it will be sent to the U.N. headquarters for repair or replacement.

If the tech team is local (and I highly recommend that they are), they could probably fix minor damages themselves.

The computers serve another purpose, as you may or may not know the 21st century will become the computer era. As we grow more and more dependent on computers a basic knowledg of computer technology is necessary for work and everyday life in the real world.

Caradune would like to thank love and esterel for the help editing and revising this resolution.

Ok


Considering what other people have said, skimming through it, it is currently not close
--------------------
Over the summer, I was working at a computer refurbishment stop to equip schools that couldn't afford computers with computers. While we weren't able, by any means, to provide every single student with a computer, we could send several thousand computers out (in 2004, the shop sent over 7000 computers out). Every single computer was donated by both government agencies and corporations - most of which were running on regular replacement cycles of their systems. As such, we were generally looking at computers 2-4 years old and, for the most part, in fairly good shape. We made sure they worked, provided a full image for schools (which was donated by corporations that were interested in it, though this was through cooperation and all of the software could be replaced by freeware if we so chose to use it. But really, if we're going to compare Microsoft Windows/Office with Linux/OpenOffice, yes they both work, but which would be preferable in NA for students........yeah). Nothing was done at the governmental level except provide some funding for the program. The program hired students through a work-experience program that was set up by the federal government while other funding was given to just run the operation. The warehouse was donated by the provincial learning board who had about a third too much space for what they needed (since they inherited it from the now defunct liquor control board).

I think this is something that we could use as a model for this system. You cannot make a viable system that provides computers to all students within the home without making a MASSIVE increase in funding. The requirements of the individual courses, high schools and students makes it so that it is next to impossible to actually have a default decision for computers. Additionally, a lot of schools prefer the more standard, though slightly more expensive computers because they are easier to maintain (and a technician is a bit too much - not to mention that often the local tech is just a parent of one of the students who doesn't know anything about computers). The expense is simply extraordinary.

This proposal is unfeasable.

Here is my suggestion.