NationStates Jolt Archive

Please add your support to the following witch now sit waiting to be approved by the delegates


United Nation,

Observing that
Many nations have problems with the legalization of prostitution,

Regretting that
the UN has passed a resolution that imposes the views of a few nations at the expense of the legal, commercial, and moral views of other nations.

DECLARES
That UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTION #91 "The Sex Industry Worker Act" be repealed

AFFIRMING
1. That this is an issues to be left to each member state,
2. The view that prostitution is immoral and thus should be illegal is not a worthless.
3. Women and men have more worth then to sell their bodies for sex
4. The legalization of prostitution is nothing less then an endorsement of it and thus harm to society

Please add your support to the following witch now sit waiting to be approved by the delegates

Unlikely

United Nation,

Nations is plural.

Observing that
Many nations have problems with the legalization of prostitution,

Observing that this list includes my own, but still my nation supports this resolution for many of the arguments cited within its text - more than anything, protection of the rights of prostitutes themselves (I would love to throw all the pimps in jail and help the prostitutes, but making the field illegal would actually mean that the prostitutes are going to suffer more human rights abuses so....)

Regretting that
the UN has passed a resolution that imposes the views of a few nations at the expense of the legal, commercial, and moral views of other nations.

One would suspect that due to the actual vote tally, it is actually a decent majority of nations that are imposing their views

DECLARES
That UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTION #91 "The Sex Industry Worker Act" be repealed

Wow, how anti-climatic

AFFIRMING
1. That this is an issues to be left to each member state,

Denied. I don't trust the individual member states to think intelligently

2. The view that prostitution is immoral and thus should be illegal is not a worthless.

I've stated why it should be illegal, morality issues or not

3. Women and men have more worth then to sell their bodies for sex

Congrats for telling a man or woman how to live his/her life. I consider that one of the most despicable beliefs to ever be held

4. The legalization of prostitution is nothing less then an endorsement of it and thus harm to society

No, actually, it's for the protection of the prostitutes for abuse by both those who patronize and those that run the "whorehouses". This way, prostitutes have the rights of any other worker. You make their job a job beyond that of the law, you make it so that they are at risk of being abused by their owners or clients. I consider the prostitutes health and wellbeing to be more important than the morality of the action in question.

It is illogical to believe that the legalization of prostitution is not an endorcement of it. There is no better way for a government to express its dislike for an act then to outlaw it, the opposite would be true also.


If one want to truly help prostitutes, making what they do legal, basically telling them the world is happy that they are stuck in there dead-end, dangerous and immoral profession is not helping.

Terioamo is not a country that believes you make things illegal and not try to stop the root cause witch causes the crime in the first place, but making the act not a crime creats a whole new problem.

Laws are supposed to be the extension of the will and the beliefs of the people, your people may want women to be placed in store windows like dogs, but my people don't. :mad:

Yet, their will is being ignored. Other nations are putting their moral beliefs on us, they are telling us that prostitution is not a social problem and is a blessing that when legal is a clean, glamorous and rewarding career.

Your view on the intelligence of individual member states clearly shows your haltered of people's self determination. You attack us for trying to tell people how to live their lives yet you are telling us how to run our country!

When a country accepts the degradation of women (such as legalizing prostitution) it increases the danger for abuse. We don't want our little girls to grow up to sell their bodies AND their souls in a dead end and dangerous job. If this is a crime put us in jail.

If your people feel differently they can make it legal, but what gives you the right to make us have people sold like animals? What gives you the right to set back women's equality in our country back a hundred years?

Why should we even have issues everyday? We should run to the all-wise UN and the omniscient delegates.
I'm not telling you that you must re-legalize prostitution in your country. I'm saying that my country, that my people have the right to decide for ourselves.


PS

OH WOW, I missed that "s" while typing

It is illogical to believe that the legalization of prostitution is not an endorcement of it. There is no better way for a government to express its dislike for an act then to outlaw it, the opposite would be true also.

I didn't claim that. I claimed that there were other considerations I put far above the morality of the action - mainly the rights of the prostitutes themselves.

That said, considering prostitution is legal in most industrialized nations, and yet the position of people on the whole is that prostitution is immoral, I wonder if we're actually giving a "green light" to prostitution

If one want to truly help prostitutes, making what they do legal, basically telling them the world is happy that they are stuck in there dead-end, dangerous and immoral profession is not helping.

No, actually. By making it legal, you guarantee them the rights alloted to the normal worker. Mainly, those protected by Resolution 6 (End Slavery - the actual biggest concern when prostitution is outlawed), Resolution 22 and 25 (which protect children from entering into that industry), Resolution 38 (Rights of Labor Unions which allows prostitutes to have some ability to get a fair wage for the job), and Resolution 59 (The 40 hour workweek, which guarantees the prostitute some time to find other possible places to work or bolster her/his education) all come to mind. Additionally, Resolution 61 (Abortion Rights) and the various medicine and health care resolutions allow prostitutes to deal with failed birth control, access to birth control and treatment for any STDs they picked up in their line of work.

You make it illegal, there's a good chance that prostitute is locked in her/his room and held there as practically a prisoner, with many concerns about birth control and STDs never addressed and no hope of being able to find another job.

Terioamo is not a country that believes you make things illegal and not try to stop the root cause witch causes the crime in the first place, but making the act not a crime creats a whole new problem.

Hardly.

Laws are supposed to be the extension of the will and the beliefs of the people,

HAHAHAHAHA. No - that's a tyranny of the majority belief.
The duty of the government is to protect the rights of the people, protect people from others, and to help the country in any way possible. If laws were supposed to reflect the will of the people, Iraq would never have happened (popular opinion for the Iraq war had dipped below 50% just before the US invaded. And that's just in the US. In the other 3 countries that assisted, popular opinion never got above 50% to begin with).

your people may want women to be placed in store windows like dogs, but my people don't. :mad:

WTF? :headbang:

I've quite clearly stated that I don't like the idea of prostitution. As such, I legislate in such a manner that the prostitutes rights and dignity are protected - thuse they won't be put in "store windows like dogs" as you put it.

Yet, their will is being ignored. Other nations are putting their moral beliefs on us, they are telling us that prostitution is not a social problem and is a blessing that when legal is a clean, glamorous and rewarding career.

Hardly. We are stating that we know prostitution will happen whether we outlaw it or not. As such, we would rather protect prostitutes rights. Hell, resolution 91 still leaves room for the government to arrest any customer who enters a whorehouse (though that too would pretty much nullify the resolution)

Your view on the intelligence of individual member states clearly shows your haltered of people's self determination.

Hatred of? Hardly. I lack the trust in people to make smart choices. Interestingly enough, the entire concept of law is founded on that belief - we don't trust you to make the right decisions, so we'll make it so there's a punishment if you make the wrong decisions

You attack us for trying to tell people how to live their lives yet you are telling us how to run our country!

When it comes to issues of human rights - which give people the freedom to act in such a manner - I choose the citizen over the nation. If I think that such a person should have said right, I don't give a damn what the nation thinks, I want that nation to give that person said right.

When a country accepts the degradation of women (such as legalizing prostitution) it increases the danger for abuse.

That's the damn most uneducated comment I've seen yet.

We don't want our little girls to grow up to sell their bodies AND their souls in a dead end and dangerous job. If this is a crime put us in jail.

Nor do we. So we teach them the problems of prostitution in school, we teach them to respect themselves, we give them self-esteem so they don't become prostitutes. If they still end up in the industry, we give them a heck of a lot of ways to get out and we try to protect them as much as we can. While you can easily do the former regardless of your position on prostitution, the latter is impossible if its illegal. Their out is jail or death. THINK!

If your people feel differently they can make it legal, but what gives you the right to make us have people sold like animals? What gives you the right to set back women's equality in our country back a hundred years?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was women's rights activists that pushed it forth in the last round of trying to legalize it (in real life I mean), for the reasons I've listed above. Again, as I said, its about protecting the prostitute.

Why should we even have issues everyday? We should run to the all-wise UN and the omniscient delegates.

No, you should come onto the forum where we can debate this in a logical manner and actually come to some intelligent conclusions where we realize why our views are wrong or right. So far, you sit on the belief of we are promoting an immoral act by legalizing it (which, BTW, is a multi-dimensional item - because "promotion through legalization" also removes "interest through rebellion" and adding on stuff like educational promotion of staying out of the industry, worker protection for those within the industry, and availability for potential ways out of the industry means that...well... as a net, at worst, my nation draws even in actual patrons of whorehouses). So far, I have stated that we are trying to protect the rights of those within the industry. I suppose I should ask this question: do you honestly believe that if we make the act illegal, prostitution will stop? If so, why? If not, how do you give these prostitutes the protections granted in the various worker resolutions I listed above?

I'm not telling you that you must re-legalize prostitution in your country. I'm saying that my country, that my people have the right to decide for ourselves.

Your people: by leaving this resolution in place, I am letting them decide for themselves: both in will they use it or not, and will they be a part of it or not. Further, if they are in it, they will have the right to get out of it or not.

PS

OH WOW, I missed that "s" while typing

OH WOW, we can't take criticism of our spelling errors. On the UN forums, I treat all proposals like drafts. I believe in being polished, so if I notice a spelling or grammatical mistake, I will note it. I don't do it in disdain of the proposal, I do it in the wish that the proposer will correct it should he/she wish to propose again.

Arguments, however, I do tend to add a little bit of emotion to.

I agree with Forgottenlands. By making prostitution an offical business and giving the prostitutes the same rights as any other worker, you give them the opportunity to stop any and all abuses. If it is a black market industry, the pimps are free to do whatever they want to their employees. But by making this legal, the prostitutes can go to whatever worker's rights organizations a nation has a file a protest, leading to the dismissal and possible jailing of the pimp.

Illegalizing prostitution gives the prostitutes less rights and more opportunity to be abused.

I have to agree with Forgottenlands. By legalization you help to protect the prostitutes. As long as it's illegal, the pimp can treat the prostitute however they want. Most of the time such laws making prostitution illegal only affect the prostitute and not the pimp. It's the prostitute that ends up doing time, the prostitute that gets abused by the POLICE, the prostitute that dosn't get a fair trial. The pimp just posts bail and goes home, never to be bothered by the legal system. Through legalization the pimp has to pay at minimum amount agreed upon, which keeps them from taking away the earnings of the prostitute. In this case a pimp is an agent/protection insurer. Under the guise of being illegal, most of them take 90% of the earnings, they beat and molest these prostitutes. They also don't protect the prostitute from the john. In many cases a john will purposely give force themselves on them without protection and in the process give them a disease they can't get rid of. As Forgottenlands has pointed out by legalizing it, you are protecting these prostitutes from both the pimp, the john and even corrupt police and judges.

Under my rule, Cuation is able to clamp down hard on pimps who abuse their charges. If we made it illegal, I would lose the taxes and also be unable to protect the prostitute. However as it stands, police keep a close eye on things and their is a chance to leave the buisness. If you dislike the buisness then teach against it but at least by keeping it legal, the goverments can provide protection for the vunrable.

Under my rule, Cuation is able to clamp down hard on pimps who abuse their charges. If we made it illegal, I would lose the taxes and also be unable to protect the prostitute. However as it stands, police keep a close eye on things and their is a chance to leave the buisness. If you dislike the buisness then teach against it but at least by keeping it legal, the goverments can provide protection for the vunrable.
[emphasis added]

I think you're forgetting what a repeal does. If #91 were repealed, you would not be forced to outlaw prostitution, you just wouldn't be forced to legalize it. A repeal of #91 would place prostitution legislation in the hands of nations, outlawing or legalizing.

[emphasis added]

I think you're forgetting what a repeal does. If #91 were repealed, you would not be forced to outlaw prostitution, you just wouldn't be forced to legalize it. A repeal of #91 would place prostitution legislation in the hands of nations, outlawing or legalizing.

True, but a similar system undoubtedly exists for any other nation's prostitution situation: if they made it illegal, they remove any chance to collect taxes (luxury or income) and they remove the ability to protect the prostitutes.

True, but a similar system undoubtedly exists for any other nation's prostitution situation: if they made it illegal, they remove any chance to collect taxes (luxury or income) and they remove the ability to protect the prostitutes.
I disagree with that assertion in some ways.

But, regardless, I don't think the results of a nation outlawing prostitution has much of any role in whether or not a nation should be allowed to decide the legality of prostitution. Even if it were an incredibly stupid idea to outlaw prostitution (which thought I disagree with) there's really no mandate for the UN to stop nations from doing stupid things.

[emphasis added]

I think you're forgetting what a repeal does. If #91 were repealed, you would not be forced to outlaw prostitution, you just wouldn't be forced to legalize it. A repeal of #91 would place prostitution legislation in the hands of nations, outlawing or legalizing.

and then make me defending my position against religious groups, opposition party and those who like to join the bandwagon without the excuse "The UN made me do it." I'm too lazy to want to argue with them but I would have to. Besides once the repeal got through, either we get an attempt to reinstate this or ban the business altogether.

Denied. I don't trust the individual member states to think intelligently





One more fine example of a nanny state attempting to impose its beliefs on all others. Perhaps the Forgottenlands leadership has no faith in its own ability to make rash, intelligent decisions and so chooses to assume that all other nations are equally incapable of the same?

We firmly believe that this is a National issue best left to the discretion of the individual nations and not an International issue, best left to the discretion of those insecure enough in their own governments that they'd transpose those same insecurities onto others.

One more fine example of a nanny state attempting to impose its beliefs on all others.

Beliefs, perhaps, but let us not confuse this with morals. I believe in the protection of the person from abuse - and this is yet another case where abuse is a major concern.

Perhaps the Forgottenlands leadership has no faith in its own ability to make rash, intelligent decisions

You're right. I don't think I have the ability to make a rash intelligent decision. Reasoned debate and extensive time to consider it means that I can come to a reasoned intelligent decision in the long run - one that better protects and helps my citizenr.

and so chooses to assume that all other nations are equally incapable of the same?

I think many nations - including many of the experienced debaters on these forums have proven that rash intelligent decisions are not always the best decisions. The reason I don't trust most nations to make the right choice is because I believe they are making a rash decision. I note my post on the thread "why would nations not want to join the UN" (or something like that) where I said that this is reactionary politics at its worst. People aren't thinking it through and forget about a lot of issues that do exist and the actual sheer complexity and consequences any action may have. A rash decision taken without the discussion with other people means that you will almost certainly miss some problem or another. I don't trust nations to discuss this with others, therefore I don't trust nations to make decisions.

We firmly believe that this is a National issue best left to the discretion of the individual nations and not an International issue, best left to the discretion of those insecure enough in their own governments that they'd transpose those same insecurities onto others.

I disagree with that assertion in some ways.

I suppose at the most absolute form, it is untrue. But practically all.

But, regardless, I don't think the results of a nation outlawing prostitution has much of any role in whether or not a nation should be allowed to decide the legality of prostitution. Even if it were an incredibly stupid idea to outlaw prostitution (which thought I disagree with) there's really no mandate for the UN to stop nations from doing stupid things.

True, but I don't value national sovereignty in the same way you do for a variety of reasons

"HAHAHAHAHA. No - that's a tyranny of the majority belief."


You are in love with oligarchy, if you have such faith in people coming together in the UN forum why don't you have faith in the citizens to make their own mind up on this issue. The people in my nation know more about what works and what does not work in Terioamo then you do. You want to put your world view on us and make every nation like yours (immoral, heartless and bigoted{not openminded})

It is illogical to believe that the legalization of prostitution is not an endorcement of it. There is no better way for a government to express its dislike for an act then to outlaw it, the opposite would be true also.

"Legalization" is a process by which laws are rescinded which before opposed a particular act or mode. "Legalization" is not "endorsement" the two concepts are non-relative to one another. Legalization is a passive operation of law, endorsement is an active operation of law. Therefore it is totally illogical to attempt to connect the two different concepts into a single motive.

Not all of us have "legalized prostitition", prostitution has always been legal in this Republic, and therefore it is not "legalized"; it is merely an act, mode, or operation which is not opposed by law (our law only defines that which is in opposition to it). Continuing, our laws only exist to protect people from one another. That is, no law can be passed, logically which creates effectively "victimless" crimes.... Prostition, as it exists, is one of those areas where law has no business interfering. Such are indendent acts of people in concern of their own bodies, and property; and therefore have no legal business being screwed with by oppressive and tyranical government.

"HAHAHAHAHA. No - that's a tyranny of the majority belief."


You are in love with oligarchy, if you have such faith in people coming together in the UN forum why don't you have faith in the citizens to make their own mind up on this issue. The people in my nation know more about what works and what does not work in Terioamo then you do. You want to put your world view on us and make every nation like yours (immoral, heartless and bigoted{not openminded})

I'm trying to make my people immoral and heartless, maybe I should ask for help ;) however just becuase you belive the ruler or UN ambassador is such, the people may not be so.

Observing that
Many nations have problems with the legalization of prostitution,

how many nations have this problem? Honest question, I want to know.

Regretting that
the UN has passed a resolution that imposes the views of a few nations at the expense of the legal, commercial, and moral views of other nations.

How did the thing get through in the first place if that is the case? I accept some will have a moral problem with the whole thing, perhaps legal but commercial? I would imagine the tax is very helpful for a start

1. That this is an issues to be left to each member state,

this I can agree with

2. The view that prostitution is immoral and thus should be illegal is not a worthless.

The harm by making it illegal has already been explained. The view isn't worthless but I would like to know how it being illegal helps anyone or is it actully possible to stop the trade?

3. Women and men have more worth then to sell their bodies for sex

What if it is what the person prefers to do or actully the best thing they can offer?

4. The legalization of prostitution is nothing less then an endorsement of it and thus harm to society

see what has been said by other respected members about the advantages of the trade being legal to see why I can not back this bit. We may not be banning it but doesn't mean we endorse, we can easily discourge it.

If you add the word viewpioint to number 2 and chuck out number 3 and 4, mainly 4, then I would be closer to backing this. If rewritten to be more towards a nation making its own descion on the issue then a morale argument, I would quite probably back this.

Please add your support to the following witch now sit waiting to be approved by the delegates


United Nation,

Just one?

Observing that
Many nations have problems with the legalization of prostitution,

They should follow the recommendations of Resolution 91, which improves conditions for sex workers and health and safety for both prostitutes and customers. There should be virtually no problems then.

Regretting that
the UN has passed a resolution that imposes the views of a few nations at the expense of the legal, commercial, and moral views of other nations.

Tough. The resolution was aimed at the people in the UN nations, you know, the ones we're governing for. They are granted liberties that some backward governments might not dare give them. But what a government wants is not necessarily what the people want.


AFFIRMING
1. That this is an issues to be left to each member state,

No, because STDs are not left to each member state either, and I wouldn't want my citizens becoming criminalized just because they have visited a prostitute here or abroad.

2. The view that prostitution is immoral and thus should be illegal is not a worthless.

It's their body, it's their decision what to do with it. And if you think sex's dirty, than your nation won't get a lot of inhabitants.

3. Women and men have more worth then to sell their bodies for sex

But, if I follow your reasoning, not the brains to decide about that, because you don't even trust your citizens to make their own decision on whether to sell their body or not.

4. The legalization of prostitution is nothing less then an endorsement of it and thus harm to society

Yes, tell that to all the women who aren't raped now, to all the people who aren't infected with an STD, to all the people who aren't victim to a crime, to all the prostitutes who have a clean and safe working environment instead of a filthy backroom where they have to shag a police officer for free not to be arrested.

Prostitution happens, whether it's legal or not. So get over it, and give those people a decent chance to live. With your actions you could harm many innocent lives! And that dares to talk about "morality"...

It is illogical to believe that the legalization of prostitution is not an endorcement of it. There is no better way for a government to express its dislike for an act then to outlaw it, the opposite would be true also.

Wrong. Often disliked actions are taxed. How nice: you could be disgusted *and* make some money out of it.

If one want to truly help prostitutes, making what they do legal, basically telling them the world is happy that they are stuck in there dead-end, dangerous and immoral profession is not helping.

It's not a dangerous profession - not when this resolution is obeyed. Criminalizing makes it dangerous though, and that's what you want. Immoral? That's not up to you to decide. Each person has their own morals.

Laws are supposed to be the extension of the will and the beliefs of the people, your people may want women to be placed in store windows like dogs, but my people don't. :mad:

So, what's the problem then? If you don't want prostitutes in your country, think: why do we have prostitutes? Is it because your government doesn't care about the people, their jobs, their living conditions? Because if your people consider prostitution to be so immoral, then why do they become prostitutes in the first place? And where do the customers come from?

Yet, their will is being ignored.

By you! It is your view that it's a degrading, immoral job, it is you who discriminate against a job sector, it is you who forces people to sell your body.

Don't blame a resolution trying to improve conditions for people thrown into the gutter in some societies for something exactly those so-called "moral" societies do themselves.

This post is entirely OOC

"HAHAHAHAHA. No - that's a tyranny of the majority belief."


You are in love with oligarchy,

Actually, no. I support full fledged democracy, but our nations (regardless of the situation within the nation or how we RP them) are far from being democratic. We are instated as dictators for life, passing laws at whim and tossing the rest. There is hardly a piece of data that we actually "debate" with another nation until we get to the UN. That's why I fight my battles here.

if you have such faith in people coming together in the UN forum why don't you have faith in the citizens to make their own mind up on this issue.

As stated. From an RP aspect, I note that my nation has a excellent Political Freedoms rating

The people in my nation know more about what works and what does not work in Terioamo then you do.

Oh, I'm not disputing any of your arguments regarding morality or the belief that you can combat prostitution (not eradicate it, you can never irradicate any crime), I'm stating that I consider other areas MUCH more important that whether the act is legal or not

You want to put your world view on us and make every nation like yours (immoral, heartless and bigoted{not openminded})

1) If I am immoral, than why are my arguments about protecting the prostitutes instead of the concerns of the pimps or johns?
2) If I am heartless, than why do I want to give rights and protections to the women forced into the industry
3) If I am a bigot, why have I acknowledged every single point of yours and then stated what I feel is more important and why I chose that way

Now to turn this back on you
1) Let's claim you're immoral. But you're trying to stop an industry you feel is immoral so that isn't valid.
2) Let's say you're heartless. You can't respect the choice of the prostitutes, you tell them what is good for them, you give no protections to them, just say that their job they are not allowed to perform, you give them no rights and no way out of the industry. You also remove the right to choose for the John and Pimp, but those are minor considering they aren't exactly respecting the dignity of others....
3) Let's say you're a bigot. So far, you have entirely focused on my wish to impose my beliefs on you. You have not addressed my comments or explained why you feel that the rights and protections given to prostitutes by the legalization of the industry is LESS important than whether the act of legalization is actually an endorsement of the industry (though some feel it is not an endorsement). I note the word less because they are relative terms. As such, the feeling is that you are ignoring my arguments.

FURTHER, you have completely and totally ignored the arguments of every other poster on this thread besides me. Everyone has iterated the same comments with exception to the question of national sovereignty. You completely ignore the arguments and move on and continue to blast me continuously over my arguments with comments that are borderline flaming and flamebaiting (which, BTW, are illegal). So how about you cool your head and fight the argument, not the person.

Please add your support to the following witch now sit waiting to be approved by the delegates


United Nation,

Observing that
Many nations have problems with the legalization of prostitution,

Regretting that
the UN has passed a resolution that imposes the views of a few nations at the expense of the legal, commercial, and moral views of other nations.

DECLARES
That UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTION #91 "The Sex Industry Worker Act" be repealed

AFFIRMING
1. That this is an issues to be left to each member state,
2. The view that prostitution is immoral and thus should be illegal is not a worthless.
3. Women and men have more worth then to sell their bodies for sex
4. The legalization of prostitution is nothing less then an endorsement of it and thus harm to society

I would agree that this is a difficult and contentious issue, especially for many socially conservative individuals and nations. Yet ultimately we will vote against a repeal on the grounds of greater protection for women and individual liberty.

1). Debatable, the issue of prostitution often involves trafficking and thus affects all member states.

2). This is really a matter of individual conscience and proclaiming what is moral and immoral is not the duty of the U.N.

3). Agreed, but if some choose too, then why should they be stopped, so long as they do it voluntarily and are well treated by their employer.

4). No, endorsing would be to actively encourage it, here we simply have left it as a matter for individual choice and conscience, thus leaving the decision to the prostitute, not the state. As for harm to society. Would you rather it was driven underground and left barely regulated, with sex slaves and child prostitution left to run epidemic, due to the lack of surveillance of the industry?

May the blessings of our otters be upon you.

Leonard Otterby
Ambassador for the Republic of Compadria to the U.N.

You need to understand this; the immorality of prostitution is not our main argument in this you have to understand this.

In some countries maybe not your but in ours what’s right is legal and what’s illegal is wrong, for something to be legal is an endorsement to us.

You accuse us of forgetting about poor people in this country, yet we do all we can to stop the root causes of prostitution.

We want the right to decide for ourselves. This is a commerce issue not a human rights one, you don't have the right to sell anything in some countries including sex. Should the UN force other forms of capitalism on this country?

It’s bigoted to believe that a simple majority of nations have the right to tell our nation how to deal with a social issue the same way they do. It’s bigoted to tell us we are not intelligent enough to decide for ourselves what’s right and wrong, legal and illegal.

When people leave a state of nature :mp5: :gundge:


and enter a social contract :cool: :p :) :D

they give up some rights; rights to kill, to take, to what ever they want. They give up some of these rights for order and protection of rights they hold dear: Life Liberty....etc

Prostitution is not a right and thus should not be treated as one.
It’s an INTERNAL commerce and cultural issue and thus should have nothing to do with the UN.

I'm not telling you to change YOUR laws; I’m not telling your people what to do. You are telling us, that our values and our laws are wrong,

That is bigotry

We believe that the status and value of human beings, esp. women, is related to how people treat each other in a society. If a society accepts prostitution they accept women as sex objects and thus endanger all women. Women are not protected by legalizing prostitution.

We feel the best way to get rid of prostitution is:

1. To fight the root causes of prostitution, like poverty
2. To enforcement of laws designed not to punish but to rehabilitate offenders


We don't feel that creating a situation where prostitution is a legally accepted profession helps. Legalization increases demand, witch in turn raises the price; this creates a situation where cheaper, unregulated, and traditionally illegal prostitution exists in the same form again. Thus, this law does nothing but make people believe the problem is solved.

We have nothing but the utmost respect for the rights of your citizens, and indeed citizens everywhere, to make their own decisions.

That's why we feel it right to force the legalisation of prostitution, regardless of the opinions of local majorities. It is none of the business of your nation's moral majority to impose its own ideas of what constitutes proper behaviour on other citizens. These are decisions that should be made on the personal level and no higher - your people have absolutely no right to lecture each other or anyone else and tell them that they must view sex as so important and sacred that it cannot be traded.

The simple fact is that many people don't ascribe the same importance to sex as you do - and some of these people live in your nation, as in every other nation. Who are you or your citizens to judge as wrong their personal choices about who they have sex with and why?

As for others, who find themselves in the industry and are unhappy about it - I'd first point out that many people outside the sex industry aren't happy with what their employment entails either, and some are downright troubled by the ethics of their jobs - but they carry on because they need the money and are relatively powerless to control the situation of the employment market. This is a problem, not with prostitution, but economic systems - maybe you should reconsider yours (although a certain amount of this problem is probably inevitable in any real economy). Second, it is foolish to assert that prostitutes cannot be better off where their profession is legalised. If you have, as UN legislation demands, legalised prostitution, and prostitutes are still working in (I quote from you) "cheaper, unregulated, and traditionally illegal prostitution exists in the same form again" then it is entirely the fault of your government and your electorate, for failing to properly regulate the industry in the interests of protecting the rights of men and women to work in humane, healthy work environments of their choice (not yours) where they earn a fair wage and have a fair share of power.

For a state to claim power over personal choices about individuals' bodies is effectively for the state to claim at least partial ownership of its citizens' bodies.

You need to understand this; the immorality of prostitution is not our main argument in this you have to understand this.

Your attacks were definately immorality based.

In some countries maybe not your but in ours what’s right is legal and what’s illegal is wrong, for something to be legal is an endorsement to us.

Well the actual wording of your legalization of prostitution in your nation can include things such as stating it is immoral and complaining about its morality. This will encourage citizens to think of the action before they commit it. You can also make it so that they have to post signs on the doors of whorehouses stating the immorality of the action and the degradation of the women that this man is about to commit (assuming, of course, we're talking about women prostitutes).

You accuse us of forgetting about poor people in this country, yet we do all we can to stop the root causes of prostitution.

Congratulations. However, as long as there are customers, there will be prostitutes. If nothing else, they'll import them - and don't you dare claim that you can "crack down on" immigration. As long as its illegal, those who are in the industry are victims and will be treated as less than dirt - by customers, by law enforcement, by bosses. THOSE are the people that you are forgetting. I always find it rather humorous when someone takes away a person's right to do something in favor of "protecting them". The reason I find it humorous is more often than not, the protection fails miserably (for people continue to do it illegally), crime rates end up rising, and those that they had tried to protect are now in even more danger because they are evading the law as well.

We want the right to decide for ourselves. This is a commerce issue not a human rights one, you don't have the right to sell anything in some countries including sex. Should the UN force other forms of capitalism on this country?

Commerce? COMMERCE? This resolution that you are repealing is filed under "Human Rights" and you are claiming it ISN'T? If we tried to ban it, it WOULD be filed under "Moral Decency" - not "Social Justice". This is very MUCH a human rights issue.

It’s bigoted to believe that a simple majority of nations have the right to tell our nation how to deal with a social issue the same way they do. It’s bigoted to tell us we are not intelligent enough to decide for ourselves what’s right and wrong, legal and illegal.

We are not telling you what's right and wrong (though we are dealing with legality). This entire debate, we have tried to seperate the issue from morality, because the decision isn't BASED upon morality of the actual industry, it is based upon the protection of the women who are in the industry.

bigot

n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

If you're going to tell me that by passing this resolution, we are being bigots, you are claiming that all laws are bigotted in nature. That's wrong. A bigot is someone who won't listen to the other side. We're listening to you, and we're explaining why we don't agree. A bigot is not required to agree, they are required to explain the reason they chose their action, and why they feel their action is greater than yours. I have stated several times that I agree with you on the morality of the issue, but I have also stated that there are things MUCH more important than the reasons you have put forth, and therefore I don't care what you believe regarding morality, the protection of the prostitutes I hold at a higher value than that of the questionable endorsement of the action.

When people leave a state of nature :mp5: :gundge:


and enter a social contract :cool: :p :) :D

they give up some rights; rights to kill, to take, to what ever they want.

??? Is this your nation you speak of?

They give up some of these rights for order and protection of rights they hold dear: Life Liberty....etc


Liberty
1.
1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
2. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
3. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.


You're claiming that by giving up rights, they are protecting their liberty? Unless you mean political liberty (in which case, I'd love to see what rights they give up to protect that right), you are not protecting the liberty of your people, you're taking it away.

Prostitution is not a right and thus should not be treated as one.

Actually, UN law says otherwise, though I agree with the latter part of your statement. That said, you make it illegal, and the ones that suffer aren't those that take it as a right, but those who they take it on.

It’s an INTERNAL commerce

I wish. Underground, it's a female slave trade at its worst - and an international female slave trade at that.

and cultural issue and thus should have nothing to do with the UN.

Culture pales in comparison to protecting the women in the industry. If you started beating women because it was part of your culture, do you think the UN should stop outlawing the practice?

I'm not telling you to change YOUR laws; I’m not telling your people what to do. You are telling us, that our values and our laws are wrong,

Your right, and I stand by my position

Edit: sorry, we're telling you your laws are wrong. We've already told you that your values are valid and I urge you to continue to impress them upon your people

That is bigotry

Are you claiming that all laws are bigotry in nature?

------------

Edit: Added

We believe that the status and value of human beings, esp. women, is related to how people treat each other in a society.

Agreed, though we make no exception for women or men. It's actually more of how one treats those "below them" in terms of power rather than how one treats their equals that's important

If a society accepts prostitution they accept women as sex objects and thus endanger all women. Women are not protected by legalizing prostitution.

How are my arguments regarding the women IN the prostitution industry not valid? Women on the whole are not protected. Women who are IN THE INDUSTRY are. Important difference.

What I find interesting is I started off the debate talking about all forms of prostitution - not just the prodominant female population in the industry, and you keep dragging it over to women's rights. I keep talking about the protection of those that work in the industry and you keep discussing how this industry effects the image of women. I actually find this to be quite annoying.

We feel the best way to get rid of prostitution is:

"Get rid of"? You actually think you can fully abolish prostitution? Good to know I'm arguing with an idealist

1. To fight the root causes of prostitution, like poverty

Can be done both ways.

2. To enforcement of laws designed not to punish but to rehabilitate offenders

Ah, but you see, what about the slavery they endure while in the industry, the STDs they collect, the abuse, and quite frankly, the total dismissal by society. It takes 10 times as many prostitutes to die as the average citizen for the population to perk their ears to the news. Amazing how society neglects to consider its bottom.

We don't feel that creating a situation where prostitution is a legally accepted profession helps. Legalization increases demand,

That's actually bull****. From Alcohol, to Abortion, to Prostitution, to drug use, legalization had nothing to do with demand. Demand existed both ways

witch in turn raises the price; this creates a situation where cheaper, unregulated, and traditionally illegal prostitution exists in the same form again.

Now we have a good argument, and if the entire facility is government regulated, it won't be an issue.

Thus, this law does nothing but make people believe the problem is solved.

No, it is far from solved. This law is merely a stepping stone removing the largest hurdle. By forcing nations to legalize prostitution, if they want to combat it, they have to find other ways to address the issue other than sweep it under the carpet with a law that makes it illegal.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the ultimate reason why this is a human rights issue.

I should note that illegal prostitutes are almost always more expensive than legal ones. That's actually true of a lot of things.

IF you don't know about contract theory when it comes to legitimacy of government then you need to find a new hobby. Human beings without government are completely free, they have no laws, no rules and can do what they want. :mp5: :sniper: :gundge:



But when they agree to be ruled (social contract) they give up "rights".

Example, in a state of nature I can kill people; I have the right to do it because there are no laws or rules to stop me.

But out side of a state of nature (under government) I don't have the right to kill because I/we gave it up so we could enjoy other rights. :)

Your argument is based on the moral argument that women are "safer" when prostitution is legal. You are pressing your morality on us. Let’s get that straight .

If you believe that its impossible to get rid of prostitution by making it illegal then its illogical to believe that governments can regulate it successfully.

As i said before, demand goes up, price goes up: thus customers will going looking for black market prostitutes. The same women living in poverty, supporting a drug habit etc. will still be selling themselves out side of regulation in the same situation

Legalization does nothing but creat two sex markets a legal and illegal one. Both immoral and detramental to society.

I'm not calling your actions bigoted because you won't listen, i'm calling them beigoted because unlike my opinion yours is being FORCED on our nation. :mad:


Legalizing Prostitution is not a solution its a copout.

IF you don't know about contract theory when it comes to legitimacy of government then you need to find a new hobby. Human beings without government are completely free, they have no laws, no rules and can do what they want. :mp5: :sniper: :gundge:



But when they agree to be ruled (social contract) they give up "rights".

Example, in a state of nature I can kill people; I have the right to do it because there are no laws or rules to stop me.

But out side of a state of nature (under government) I don't have the right to kill because I/we gave it up so we could enjoy other rights. :)

If anyone else here thinks that I have no clue about Anarchy, please tell me now. I'd love to know how I've all of a sudden become the "ignorant" person in this debate.

Listen lady (judging by your arguments, I'm pretty sure you're female), I'm well aware of anarchy and the problems associated with it. I'm well aware of the concerns that exist with it. I'm well aware of the dangers of perfect liberty. I'm well aware that you give up rights in most nations - just as your nation gave up rights by entering the UN. I'm well aware of a heck of a lot more than you seem to be giving me credit for. I think its telling that while some people are iffy on the issue of nations rights on the matter, not a single person has supported your position of "the action being immoral means we should have the right to ban it" so far.

I didn't state that you were wrong to take away rights, I said you were wrong to claim that it was liberty that you were protecting. Amazing how you misinterpretted that one.

BTW, kill the smileys, your choice of using them in such a manner drops the opinion of your arguments even further.

Oh, and for the record, you'll fine that many nations (including some that support you) have an anarchy for a government. Me, on the other hand, I happen to have a civil rights rating of "Very Good". Obviously I don't give my people every single right in existence.

Your argument is based on the moral argument that women are "safer" when prostitution is legal. You are pressing your morality on us. Let’s get that straight .

My mistake. We are not pressing our beliefs about the morality of the industry or those that are in it or are customers of it on your nation. We are pressing the morality of the rights of those within the industry.

If you believe that its impossible to get rid of prostitution by making it illegal then its illogical to believe that governments can regulate it successfully.

Sorry, you screwed up the argument. It is illogical to believe that the government can run it perfectly. To claim the government can't run it successfully is to say a government can't run any industry successfully. This is actually a rather sick claim on your part.

As i said before, demand goes up, price goes up: thus customers will going looking for black market prostitutes. The same women living in poverty, supporting a drug habit etc. will still be selling themselves out side of regulation in the same situation

1) Demand doesn't go up - I argued that
2) You can control the price. The market may follow supply and demand trends, it may not. If the demand goes up, the supply goes up - but those illegal whorehouses won't start up, because the whores will all go to the legal ones who will take them in and increase supply so that the price goes down no matter how you figure it out.
3) The women in poverty are a different issue entirely, and it has little to do with the legalization or criminalization of prostitution (like it or not).

Legalization does nothing but creat two sex markets a legal and illegal one. Both immoral and detramental to society.

Um....right....keep thinking that

I'm not calling your actions bigoted because you won't listen, i'm calling them beigoted because unlike my opinion yours is being FORCED on our nation. :mad:

FORCING ONE TO DO SOMETHING ISN'T BIGOTED. Intolerance is bigotry. Legislating is NOT bigotry.

Legalizing Prostitution is not a solution its a copout.

You know, I haven't been this mad since I was debating UNSA. The fact that I haven't lost it on you yet is telling of just how far I've gotten in this game in terms of controlling my temper. The reasons, however, for my frustration are not because I'm having difficulties debating (as it was with UNSA) and finding massive hurdles in my way - not to mention being nicely outnumbered, it's that I'm trying to debate with a person who keeps throwing arguments out without actually addressing my own. So far, you've addressed two arguments, you have claimed a greater demand - though history suggests otherwise, you've claimed that a dual industry is formed - though history has proven otherwise (and the reason I seperate women in the corner selling herself is because she's got a completely different set of issues - it won't be affected in any way by the illegalization of prostitution), you've disregarded my claim of government regulation controlling the prices of prostitution and then use the same line as if repeating it will help you. You've disregarded I'd say 80% of my arguments and just fire haphazardly at the odd one - claiming a victory and treating my like a child when you think you know something I don't.

Your arguments are haphazard, juvenile, frustrating, often ignorant, almost always fail to address counter arguments, and often repeating of the same catch phrases. This isn't an American Presidential election. This is the NSUN forum. We actually read the details and consider the arguments here. Stop ignoring them.

I use the smiley faces because its fun, and also to simplify using metaphors.

We can't come to an agreement on this issue because we are both coming from different places and because this issue is too complex to be finally decided in some forum.

The simple fact that your arguments, (I may have missed some sorry about that) are the same ones I have used myself in my mind when trying to come to my own conclusion. This simple fact leads me to believe that two people(or nations) well meaning can come to two very different points of view on this issue.

That is why it should be left to each nation to make up its own mind, the UN does not have the wisdom to decide this issue, and each nation is different and thus needs a different approach to many problems.

If this was not mandatory my nation might not be against it but because these laws are we have no choice but to side with our hearts and our laws.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question

I'm a guy not a woman, what did i say to make you think differently?

I can't remember. There was a few arguments I read that sounded a lot like something I almost never hear from a guy, but I can't remember where they were. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow....

I would like to point out, just for the sake of clarity, that not all prostitutes are female. In Krioval, 55% of the population is attracted to men while 45% show attraction to women. Unsurprisingly, the numbers of male and female prostitutes in Krioval are comparable.

Hmmm... some how I missed this resolution when I went through the list.

Correct me if I am wrong, resolution #91 doesn't care if prostitution is legal or illegal in a country, but just gives the existing prostitutes a right as any other worker!

Hmmm... some how I missed this resolution when I went through the list.

Correct me if I am wrong, resolution #91 doesn't care if prostitution is legal or illegal in a country, but just gives the existing prostitutes a right as any other worker!
No, it legalises it.
AFFIRMING in accordance with the above mentioned resolution that each person has the right to decide over their own body, and has the right to sell ther body if they decide to, without government interference,

1. DECLARES prostitution legal throughout the UN: any person who is mature ,and capable of making their own decisions may become a prosititute,
We support this resolution and will not be approving any repeal attempts.

We believe that the status and value of human beings, esp. women, is related to how people treat each other in a society.

And in your society, you deny people to do the job they want, and do not want to protect them while doing that job.

Seems like you have a very dangerous country.

If a society accepts prostitution they accept women as sex objects and thus endanger all women. Women are not protected by legalizing prostitution.

So how are they protected by illegal prostitution then? No-one has yet been able to explain this to me. If prostitution is legal, it means you can check prostitutes' health, your social workers have access to them, prostitutes have nothing to fear from authorities and will contact them easier.

In a situation where prostitution is illegal, you can't check their health, you can't protect those men and women with your police force, and they won't come to you if they need help. They will have a rotten life, exploited by criminals.

If that's what you call morality, I'm glad to be considered immoral by you.

I use the smiley faces because its fun, and also to simplify using metaphors.

They look childish, and certainly don't strengthen your arguments.

We can't come to an agreement on this issue because we are both coming from different places and because this issue is too complex to be finally decided in some forum.

It isn't too complex for some of us. But if you need further explanation, I'll be glad to give it.

That is why it should be left to each nation to make up its own mind, the UN does not have the wisdom to decide this issue, and each nation is different and thus needs a different approach to many problems.

No, you have proven exactly why this should be forced by the UN. Sometimes the stronger people have to help their weaker brothers and sisters on the path to enlightenment.

Correct me if I am wrong, resolution #91 doesn't care if prostitution is legal or illegal in a country, but just gives the existing prostitutes a right as any other worker!

As has been said, it does force legalised prostitution throughout the UN. And, of course, for a worker to have any rights, the first thing should be a job that's actually legal.

Should this become a matter of voring, Rabetia will certainly vote against it. People who choose to work in the sex industry should not be allowed to be treated like second-class humans because instead of baby-sitting someone's kids for money, they have sex for money.

This is not something that in our opinion should be left to individual states to decide.

That's why we feel it right to force the legalisation of prostitution, regardless of the opinions of local majorities. It is none of the business of your nation's moral majority to impose its own ideas of what constitutes proper behaviour on other citizens.

The government of Rabetia fully agrees with this statement. Furthermore, we do not agree that prostitution should be fought against at all costs. It can be a job like others, if it is legalised and the sex workers are given equal rights and protection.

TO THOSE WHO ANSWERED MY QUERY,

Thanks!! I was just too lazy to read the resolution myself :P!!

Whether I agree with it or not, I don't think I'll be trying to repeal that at the moment.

“””“So how are they protected by illegal prostitution then? No-one has yet been able to explain this to me. If prostitution is legal, it means you can check prostitutes' health, your social workers have access to them, prostitutes have nothing to fear from authorities and will contact them easier.

In a situation where prostitution is illegal, you can't check their health, you can't protect those men and women with your police force, and they won't come to you if they need help. They will have a rotten life, exploited by criminals.

If that's what you call morality, I'm glad to be considered immoral by you.”””

First off, legalizing prostitution does not mean that illegal prostitution disappears, you will still have a sex being sold on the black market in the same conditions as earlier.

Unlike other countries my country believes in rehabilitation for offenders over punishment, if a women gets arrested for prostitution in Terioamo they get help.

Legalizing prostitution is a copout; if you don’t believe people will ever follow this law why have any? Laws can be and have been for a through out history; an extension of the values and the norms of the majority in a society.

People do not have a right to sell what ever they want. People can’t sell organs in many countries. Some countries out law the sale of anything, because its illegal to have private enterprise.

Yet for some reason we can’t outlaw the sale of sex?

If we were paranoid communist I would say this resolution is a capitalist plot, but I’m not so I will say this;

you don’t have the right to sell sex


You can have sex all you want in Terioamo, that’s why we have relaxed public nudity laws. You just can’t sell it. It hurts the society, it hurts women’s place in society, it hurts the family, it hurts my country.

Legalizing it does not mean that its clean, safe, or rewarding. Illegal (unregulated) prostitution will still exist; impoverished and drug addicted women will not be hired by the new legal brothels.

Prostitutes that already have STD’s will still be selling themselves and prostitutes without them will soon get them even with protection, which is not 100%, effective.

Young people will grow up believing the myth, that it’s a glamorous and rewarding career; this means fewer children in poor families considering an authentic professional career is for them.

Why can’t you people understand that we are not trying to push our moral legal or commercial systems on you?
All we want is the ability to follow our hearts and our minds and make our own decisions as a community for the betterment of our society.

If we were paranoid communist I would say this resolution is a capitalist plot
As Paranoid Communists™, we are pretty sure that this resolution is one of ours. At least, if I'm remembering correctly, I think its purpose is to bring down the bourgoisie by eroding their morality. Or something like that.
We're a bit overworked, you know, because so many people are calling for our services left and right. "Commie conspiracy this! Leftist plot that!" But they never seem all that happy when we pull throught for them...
It's a thankless job.
You can have sex all you want in Terioamo, that’s why we have relaxed public nudity laws. You just can’t sell it. It hurts the society, it hurts women’s place in society, it hurts the family, it hurts my country.
Food for thought:
Why does it only erode women's place in society? Don't males act as prostitutes as well?

You can have sex all you want in Terioamo, that’s why we have relaxed public nudity laws. You just can’t sell it. It hurts the society, it hurts women’s place in society, it hurts the family, it hurts my country.

(OOC) My real life state of Australia has legal prostitution and has had it for at least 10 years. It doesn't affect any part of my life or or anyone else not involved in the trade in any way whatsoever. If it wasn't for the unmarked building in an industrial area two suburbs away that I drive past now and then, and that a friend told me is a brothel, I wouldn't even know it exists. Thats how much impact legal prostitution has on society or the family. No girls are forced to work as prostitutes in this state, and its not taught to children in schools as a good career choice.

The brothels are not allowed to advertise in any way, the customers have to find them, and there aren't half naked girls hanging out the windows calling the men in. Selling sex is exactly the same as selling any other product. As long as there is demand, there will be those who will supply that demand. Having it out in the open where the government can regulate and control the industry has done much much more good than harm.

(IC)If you are this much against legal prostitution on the basis its bad for morality, bad for society, bad for children and degrades women, then I hope you have also banned pornography, calenders ect featuring naked bodies, swimsuit models, professional cheerleaders and any other job that either sells sex, or uses sex to sell. There are a lot of them.

I will never support a repeal of this resolution.

Legalizing Prostitution is not a solution its a copout.

Actually my government views this entirely as both an economic freedom and public health issue. The public health issue has been addressed my many other honorable ambassadors, thus I'd like to restate why the practice of "Companionship" is legalized in Mikitivity, under the new "Companions Guild".

Unless a nation is prepared to outlaw sex before marriage, people go on dates where one person pays for the dinner or film or entertainment. Few governments ask couples to keep running tabs of "services" exchanged, and it is impossible to really draw the line between two people whom enjoy each other's company and between two people who are more interested in the exchange of something in addition to time spent together.

Being that there are shades of gray, Mikitivity's few regulations are designed to protect companions. They are allowed to choose their clients, and they may black list individuals. Amazingly the Companions Guild strickly enforces this black list, and violence against companions is unheard of in Mikitivity.

The question has always been "What role does government have in regulating a *transaction* between two consenting adults?"

First off, legalizing prostitution does not mean that illegal prostitution disappears, you will still have a sex being sold on the black market in the same conditions as earlier.

I doubt it. The demand is for sex, and the fact that the prostitute is "clean" is a bonus compared to the fact that you would be required to do it with a condom. As such, the matter becomes price, and no one who isn't getting filthy rich off a the business is going to do something illegal like that. Why do you think drug trafficking is so high? Regardless, you are protecting more women than you were before - which was 0

Unlike other countries my country believes in rehabilitation for offenders over punishment, if a women gets arrested for prostitution in Terioamo they get help.

Great, so AFTER they've been arrested, they are helped. By then, they've had a few kids (or abortions), picked up a spare STD or two and passed them on to other customers, and been practically scarred beyond our wildest imaginations with no way to get out of the business without being killed. So, let me rephrase the question. If you make prostitution illegal, you lose all ability to help the women who are IN THE INDUSTRY AT THAT VERY MOMENT. You cannot claim that your police can or even will crack down on every whore house they find out about - heck, some of them probably have been customers there. As such, the women in the whorehouse are still without any rights whatsoever.

BTW, am I the only one that frowns at forced "help"?

Legalizing prostitution is a copout; if you don’t believe people will ever follow this law why have any? Laws can be and have been for a through out history; an extension of the values and the norms of the majority in a society.

Historically, you are mostly right. There are a few exceptions and a few fields that this isn't the case for (not to mention many oversights), but that's rather irrelevant. The more important fact is what law has become in the last two centuries: an issue regarding the rights of the individual, not the beliefs of the majority. The most previllent evidence is the rise in acceptance of Homosexuality, going from a taboo practice to the hot topic of the day - to the point that at least 4 nations have legalized Same Sex marriages across their entire countries. The view is that the right of these people is more important than the stated morality of the issue. In fact, it is in smaller pockets that you actually find people asking about the morality of it. The right of the individual is what is argued, not the morality of the action.

People do not have a right to sell what ever they want. People can’t sell organs in many countries. Some countries out law the sale of anything, because its illegal to have private enterprise.

Says who that they have to be "selling" their bodies. Prostitution is basically where your JOB is to have sex, an important distinction

Yet for some reason we can’t outlaw the sale of sex?

See previous comment.

If we were paranoid communist I would say this resolution is a capitalist plot, but I’m not so I will say this;

you don’t have the right to sell sex

Why? We sell porn, we sell sexy tapes, we sell all sorts of things where one of the major features or THE reason it is sold is sex or sex appeal.

You can have sex all you want in Terioamo, that’s why we have relaxed public nudity laws. You just can’t sell it. It hurts the society, it hurts women’s place in society, it hurts the family, it hurts my country.

Again, I love how it's become a woman's "place in society". Actually, I find it hilarious that the term "place in society" is even used.

Legalizing it does not mean that its clean, safe, or rewarding. Illegal (unregulated) prostitution will still exist; impoverished and drug addicted women will not be hired by the new legal brothels.

That is not a prostitution issue. That's a poverty issue. Illegal brothels are a prostitution issue. Please actually listen to my arguments, because I stated that last time.

Prostitutes that already have STD’s will still be selling themselves and prostitutes without them will soon get them even with protection, which is not 100%, effective.

*sighs* You can regulate the health of the industry - for example, "have STDs, you can't work here."

Young people will grow up believing the myth, that it’s a glamorous and rewarding career;

That's total bull****.

this means fewer children in poor families considering an authentic professional career is for them.

Actually, that's a cost of education and child support issue

Why can’t you people understand that we are not trying to push our moral legal or commercial systems on you?

We are protecting YOUR people from YOU. Go back to my first set of arguments.

All we want is the ability to follow our hearts and our minds and make our own decisions as a community for the betterment of our society.

Well, at least you didn't say bigot.

I'm going to say this once. If you screw it up again, I will consider this thread dead as quite frankly, I'm sick of this. READ MY ARGUMENTS

You have, once again, only repeated things that I have, several times, refuted. You have only discussed one argument of mine, and you didn't even answer it, you dodged it. You continue to support opinions that have been debunked several times over by several different people. Twice in this post, I've had to actually restrain myself from flaming you. I have tried to relieve you of your ignorance, as have many others. I have tried to explain the fallacies in your logic, as have many others. I have tried to you show holes in your wanted policies, as have many others. I have done everything I can to cease this ignorance. When you cease to take information in and continue to be ignorant, it is no longer ignorance, it is stupidity. I don't argue with stupid people, so if you continue to be stupid, I will cease arguing with you. Smarten up or leave.

I'm going to say this once. If you screw it up again, I will consider this thread dead as quite frankly, I'm sick of this. READ MY ARGUMENTS
Forgottenlands, there is no mandate that posters must argue intelligently. There is, however, a requirement that people behave in a civilised manner on the forums. You're crossing that line. Back off, NOW.

If you can't get someone to see your point of view, go find someone else to argue with. There is also a fine Ignore feature in Jolt. You have other options. Use them.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

Noted, sorry

First off, legalizing prostitution does not mean that illegal prostitution disappears, you will still have a sex being sold on the black market in the same conditions as earlier.

Bull. Why would a prostitute, when given the choice between worker's rights, decent conditions, safety, legality, and decent pay working legally, or abuse, disease, and exploitation working illegally, choose the latter?

Accountancy is a legal profession. When was the last time you saw an accountant who chose to forego the protection of workers' rights in a legal working environment and instead opted to be enslaved by his manager, who beat his employee, took 90% of his employee's rightful earnings, forced the employee to perform his services for free for him and his friends, and threatened his employee's life if he tried to quit?


you don’t have the right to sell sex

I repeat - who are you to tell anyone that they must assign certain values to their personal activities? You have no right to dictate the worth of sex, and whether it is too important to be sold. That's a personal choice to be made by individual adults for themselves.

You know my country has the support of yours in just about any situation, however, this is one issue I absolutely disagree with you. I won't put up any more argument than that because Forgotten Lands has said just about everything that has needed to be said. You are starting to sound like an Evangelist preacher as per this topic.

Morals, rights, and laws exist in the same sense that neither really exist as tangible entities; but law is for the purpose of catering to rights not morals. Murder is not upheld as illegal because some people feel it is bad to kill, moreso beause killing interfears with the rights of one person to live. If you tried to come up with a moralistic reason why killing is bad you could end up with hundreds of results depending on who you ask. Rights and laws typically have little room for debate, and it's usually only on a moral basis. This act caters only to a right, and your repeal only caters to a moral. The right in this case is definite and consise, whereas the reasoning for repeal is vauge and unrealistic in the form that it does not create any definition for moral integrity, or any clear definition of what effect it has. To create a stronger proposition this would need a lot more wording than currently exists, and would need a basis set as a proposition for moral standard to have any clear definitions.

I could be a lot more rude about why else I think you can't accept this, but it would be wrong to use my resources as your friend and the fact that I know you personally to use in a public argument; even though it is highly pertinent to your whole reasonings in my mind.

First off, legalizing prostitution does not mean that illegal prostitution disappears, you will still have a sex being sold on the black market in the same conditions as earlier.

How? After all, it's not a crime to be a prostitute. So it isn't a black market. And even if there is (for example, unlicensed prostitution), it will be way smaller than before, with less criminality involved. So legalized, the situation is still infinitely better than illegal.

Unlike other countries my country believes in rehabilitation for offenders over punishment, if a women gets arrested for prostitution in Terioamo they get help.

"You're a criminal, you filthy whore, but we're going to help you!". Will that help, you think? Probably not as good as when prostitutes are treated better, and their profession is legal. That means they have little to fear from authority.

Yet for some reason we can’t outlaw the sale of sex?

No, because it is not up to the petty views of backward governments to decide, but up to the individual. It is their body, not yours. So they should be allowed to do whatever they want with it, as long as it doesn't hurt others.

you don’t have the right to sell sex

No, you don't have the right to tell that to people. Is it okay to sell oranges in your country? Yes? So why not sex?

You can have sex all you want in Terioamo, that’s why we have relaxed public nudity laws. You just can’t sell it. It hurts the society, it hurts women’s place in society, it hurts the family, it hurts my country.

How? And why not men's place? A lot of prostitutes are male. They're not hurting? And how does it hurt the family? Do you think prostitutes invade homes, prostituting themselves? Families don't break down because of prostitution, it's the other way round: prostitution exists because families break down.

Legalizing it does not mean that its clean, safe, or rewarding. Illegal (unregulated) prostitution will still exist; impoverished and drug addicted women will not be hired by the new legal brothels.

And they won't be visited either. So they'll have to do something else. But I still haven't seen any sign that your country actually *cares*.

Prostitutes that already have STD’s will still be selling themselves and prostitutes without them will soon get them even with protection, which is not 100%, effective.

100% isn't feasible. But I can tell you that STD's are much more common with illegal prostitution. If it's legal, you can check regularly. How do you want to protect your people with illegal prostitution?

Young people will grow up believing the myth, that it’s a glamorous and rewarding career; this means fewer children in poor families considering an authentic professional career is for them.

Aha, and now we find out that getting a job in your country is so difficult, people have to resort to prostitution. I'm sorry, but this resolution is not here to help your nation's social problems, just to help making the negative effects a bit smaller. At least prostitutes can work in a safe and clean environment. It's not actually bad to be a prostitute. So no problem there.

Why can’t you people understand that we are not trying to push our moral legal or commercial systems on you?
All we want is the ability to follow our hearts and our minds and make our own decisions as a community for the betterment of our society.

Yes, and I'm trying to protect your people to this misplaced idea of a better society.

Their bodies are not yours. Don't criminalize what they do with it.

OOC: I live in the Netherlands, with legal prostitution. While there is a lot to improve, I think the average prostitute has it far better than while it is illegal. It is not bad for society, families don't break down because it's legal (it was tolerated for decades already anyway), and the Red Light District in Amsterdam is a great tourist attraction. It's safe and clean enough for people to be able to take their kids there. There is not an argument that could convince me that making it illegal is improving the situation for those prostitutes.

OOC: What works for the Netherlands isn't always the best thing for another country.
As I understand it, Hashish and other drugs are also legal in the Netherlands....guess who foots the bill for treatments, medical concerns and other issues that come up for the users.....the tax payer. Europe in general pays much higher taxes as a percentage of their income than many of the industrial nations in the world.




IC: I would submit that you need to concern yourself with the wellbeing of your citizens and not lose any sleep over the status of citizens of another nation.

OOC: What works for the Netherlands isn't always the best thing for another country.
As I understand it, Hashish and other drugs are also legal in the Netherlands....guess who foots the bill for treatments, medical concerns and other issues that come up for the users.....the tax payer. Europe in general pays much higher taxes as a percentage of their income than many of the industrial nations in the world.

I note that there's something like 4 industrialized nations outside of Europe, but a heck of a lot more in Europe.

IC: I would submit that you need to concern yourself with the wellbeing of your citizens and not lose any sleep over the status of citizens of another nation.

IC: I would submit that you need to concern yourself with the wellbeing of your citizens and not lose any sleep over the status of citizens of another nation.

This is an appalling attitude to promote. It is our view that the importance of liberty is not diminished by intervening arbitrary lines on maps. _Myopia_ will fight for the freedom of intelligent beings everywhere - we cannot conscionably abandon people to oppressive governments and oppressive laws.

OOC: What works for the Netherlands isn't always the best thing for another country.
As I understand it, Hashish and other drugs are also legal in the Netherlands....guess who foots the bill for treatments, medical concerns and other issues that come up for the users.....the tax payer.

OOC: You seem to think that if it's illegal, taxpayers pay nothing. On the contrary. We do not pay for excessive police forces, we do not pay for more medical treatmens because not only are the drugs tolerated (not legal!), they're also quite safe because of that. In other words, it's cheap. Most of the high taxes goes into things like social welfare, so less people end up below the poverty line, and good healthcare regardless of income. That's why the Netherlands scores a lot better on quality of life than, for instance, the USA. We may not have as much income, but we need to spend it on less, too.

But we digress. What's good in the Netherlands should serve as an example to all nations. Because it doesn't really matter whether you do this in the Netherlands or anywhere else. The effects are the same, and they're positive. Except for people who don't like personal freedom, of course.

We were going to send a long letter to you about why BlueTiger would not repeal this resolution, however Forgottenlands has said all that needs to be, even if we are a little insulted that they wouldn't trust us to make intelligent decisions.

The great liberators, save the world from those evil people who think they can out law the sale of something.

lol

You can put morals in law; only very recent western thought says you can't. Throughout the history of the world people have passed laws that reflect the values in their society.

Your legal philosophy can only possibly pertain to fully secular states.

Theocracy's, or moralistic democracies use moral guidelines in their government and in the making of their laws.

You don’t have the right to sell sex.

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SELL ANYTHING! If that was true then the UN should abolish laws against private industry in every country.

In some countries you can't sell guns, drugs, cars, gas, bombs, phony medications, unclean food, pornography, and any other product or service made illegal or monopolized by the government!

You don't have the right to do what ever you want with your own body; in many countries its illegal to, use drugs, have racist tattoos, SELL organs, and commit suicide.

You must believe that for some reason in RL they forgot to add the right to sell sex in; the UN Declaration of Human Rights, US Bill of Rights, the writings of Locke, and most other great philosophers concerning natural rights and/or human rights.

You claim this is a right, a Human right; you are making this up!

It’s a right only in your moral beliefs and maybe your legal traditions.

It’s not a right to us (sex is, but not selling it) in our morals and our legal tradition.

I’m not telling you to change YOUR laws; our nation just wants to tackle this issue our own way.

Well, when push come to shove the UN is a case of majority rules and the majority have not supported a repeal of this resolution. I remember when it originally passed and it had a lot of support then. Judging from the number of endorsemets your repeal attempt gained, and the comments coming out in this thread, it still does.

You do have a couple of choices. You can roleplay the resolution away or just keep trying with the repeals and hope you can eventually gather up enough support to repeal it. In my honest opinion though, this resolution will be harder to repeal than the Abortion Rights resolution, and that one has been under constant attack for the year or so I've been involved in the UN, probably longer. Not one repeal attempt against it has made it to the floor however.

In some countries you can't sell guns, drugs, cars, gas, bombs, phony medications, unclean food, pornography, and any other product or service made illegal or monopolized by the government!

You don't have the right to do what ever you want with your own body; in many countries its illegal to, use drugs, have racist tattoos, SELL organs, and commit suicide.

In some countries you can't sell anything; well, that's their problem. But what you don't seem to realize that there is a difference between harmfull products such as unclean food, phony medications, guns, and harmless products like sex, and cars. Also, you don't seem to understand that the body of a citizen belongs to that individual - not the government. And that's why it's their right to do whatever they want to do with it.

You claim this is a right, a Human right; you are making this up!

A person's body belongs to only one person: that individual. No-one else. As a government, you can't suddenly say "you're not allowed to do that to your body", because you don't have anything to say about it. A government sits there on behalf of all citizens. The citizens aren't there for the government. Try to understand that.

Now, you don't forbid having sex (you couldn't, not according to UN law, and it'd be rather bad for your population numbers). So why do you forbid someone paying to have sex? Just like you don't forbid anyone getting paid for doing the administration?

And how do you want to forbid prostitution? If someone sells oranges for a lot of money, and includes free sex if you buy them, is that prostitution? They're not getting money for the sex, but for the oranges. That's your double morale there.

Now, you can laugh all you want, but this resolution had a lot of support, it has improved world-wide health, the streets are safer. If you want to gove that up for some moral you invented, at the expense of your own people and their liberties, you won't have my support, nor as it currently stands the support of the NSUN.

Hahahaha.

I'm not going to do another analysis post, I'm sure everyone will hit every point on there, but I'd like to note that in just about all cases, you don't get arrested for using drugs, youg get arrested for possession, traffiking or growing drugs.

First off, people don't have the right to do what ever they want with their body. There are laws against selling organs, using drugs, and commiting suicide.

"""You're a criminal, you filthy whore, but we're going to help you!". Will that help, you think? Probably not as good as when prostitutes are treated better, and their profession is legal. That means they have little to fear from authority.""

Maybe that’s how it is in your country but our police force does not verbally abuse people.


"""No, because it is not up to the petty views of backward governments to decide, but up to the individual. It is their body, not yours. So they should be allowed to do whatever they want with it, as long as it doesn't hurt others. ""

There you go again, "petty views," "backward government"
This is prejudice and bigotry against our value and legal system.

As I said before ;

You can put morals in law; only very recent western thought says you can't. Throughout the history of the world people have passed laws that reflect the values in their society.

"""As a government, you can't suddenly say "you're not allowed to do that to your body"""

Prostituion has been illegal in RL for hundreds of years! There is nothing about the right to sell ones self for sex in the UN Declaration of Human Rights, US Bill of Rights, the writings of Locke, and most other great philosophers concerning natural rights and/or human rights.

If you claim its a human right then you are making it up.


""In some countries you can't sell anything; well, that's their problem. But what you don't seem to realize that there is a difference between harmfull products such as unclean food, phony medications, guns, and harmless products like sex, and cars. Also, you don't seem to understand that the body of a citizen belongs to that individual - not the government. And that's why it's their right to do whatever they want to do with it.""""

If a country can outlaw private industry then they can out law prostitution, i feel sorry for all those communist out there supporting this forced capitalism.

Sex and cars can be dangerous or monopolized. If my country wants to out law dirty polluting and dangerous (how many die in them a year?) then we can. Prostitution brings with it health concerns; HIV, Herpes etc. ____________________________________________

You say that when a prostitute is attacked they can't go to the police,
Why don't you pass a law that says they are immune from prosecution if they are reporting a crime that happened while they were "working"

You also may be completely right about the results when you say it will be safer, they will be cleaner .... etc. Our nation does not believe that but assuming it was true we still believe that the harm to the society is still to much.

There are many types of nations that could be againstthis; "free-love" nation that hates the idea of "sold sex", a puritan nation that feels that it is immoral and sinful, a nation communist that does not believe in private enterprise, a nation of fema Nazis that feels this hurts women, or a nation that just does not like the UN pushing things on it.

The UN is not just formed up of neo-liberal secular nations; there are many different types of nations that have a right to self determination.

We are not pushing our beliefs on you, you are forcing us to subscribe to you moral and legal philosophy at the cost of our principles.

Why can’t you understand that?

I'm going to try and answer Terioamo on some of what he said.

Maybe that’s how it is in your country but our police force does not verbally abuse people.

then your police force to a man are better then any I have heard of. That aside, what your doing on this front might give the impression(it does to me certainly) of "You're a criminal, you filthy whore, but we're going to help you!"

You can put morals in law; only very recent western thought says you can't. Throughout the history of the world people have passed laws that reflect the values in their society.

throughout history, laws have been passed to keep people quite and good. Other laws have been passed becuase the ruler wanted it to benfit him/her. Replace ruler with leading party and you get the same thing. A ruler/leading man will always want to seem in touch and moral so will pass the laws that seem moral as long as it doesn't harm him.


Prostituion has been illegal in RL for hundreds of years! There is nothing about the right to sell ones self for sex in the UN Declaration of Human Rights, US Bill of Rights, the writings of Locke, and most other great philosophers concerning natural rights and/or human rights.

I can just imagine someone trying to pass it in England or America. The party would be ousted for the (fake) moral outrage, not giving a care for those stuck and suffering in the buisness. Besides who gave a fig for those in the buisness now or then?

Back then everyone used them secretly(well majority?) and the buisness has been profitable for certain people throughout time, demand has never died down. Nowdays perhaps less people use them but in few nations would any goverment have the guts to try and pass such a law.


If you claim its a human right then you are making it up.

the right not to abused by employer or others is a human right, so is the right to move jobs. That is what we are giving the people in the buisness

Prostitution brings with it health concerns; HIV, Herpes etc

and it will have that untreated by pushing the buisness underground. Whereas we can check the people and heal them(or give support) as it stands.

Why don't you pass a law that says they are immune from prosecution if they are reporting a crime that happened while they were "working"

sure. They can just ask leave from the pimp to do so. Or the police will have her watched so they can arrest her next time. What the worker says will be used against them sooner or later, the law can't stop human nature to that extent.

You can put morals in law; only very recent western thought says you can't. Throughout the history of the world people have passed laws that reflect the values in their society.

History lesson: after Napoleon became the first person to use total war, the concept of a reserve of the average citizen was brought forth, rather than just having a professional standing army. However, they found that these people needed to be educated. Additionally, they needed education for the recent industrial revolution. In fact, Germany was so successful with its education that it had a illiteracy rate of less than 1% (while most nations were well over 10%, and Italy had as high as 30% into WWII....where, I note, they were seen as a bigger hinderence to Germany than the ally she should've been). Interestingly, various movements started gaining speed over time since then, many of which have become popular positions. Included in this list:
-Slavery abolition
-Womens rights
-Racial rights/anti-racism
-Seperation of church and state
-Abortion Rights
-Welfare
-Public Healthcare/Education

Certainly, a few of them have become less popular, but I note that the concentration has been rights even on the reversal of the position, not morality.

Prostituion has been illegal in RL for hundreds of years! There is nothing about the right to sell ones self for sex in the UN Declaration of Human Rights, US Bill of Rights, the writings of Locke, and most other great philosophers concerning natural rights and/or human rights.

This is actually false. Very few, if any nations, in known history have outlawed prostitution. That said, they have never explicitly legalized it per-se. It is a promotional-neutral position (as in it promotes neither for or against) known as decriminalization. Basically, its existence in law ceases to be. Most legal systems, if not all, go under the belief that if its not illegal, you can do it - that includes, BTW, the US and Great Britain

On a side note, my Grade 11 English teacher taught us that in Shakespear era England, it was not uncommon for upper class to take their sons to a whorehouse shortly before their wedding, "so at least one of them would know what to do in the bedroom". I wondered whether this might be the origin of our concept of the "bachelor party", where the focus, of course, is....sex.

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SELL ANYTHING! If that was true then the UN should abolish laws against private industry in every country.

Never claimed they did. All I'm saying is that unless you want to have the state make an implied claim of ownership on citizens' bodies, you cannot dictate how they treat their own bodies.

in many countries its illegal to use drugs

It shouldn't be.

have racist tattoos

It shouldn't be

SELL organs

Entirely different case - allowing a monetary trade in organs means that the physical health of poor people will be penalised, as rich people will be able to buy all of the limited supply of organs. We don't believe that people should have to die merely for being poor.

and commit suicide.

It shouldn't be.

You must believe that for some reason in RL they forgot to add the right to sell sex in; the UN Declaration of Human Rights, US Bill of Rights, the writings of Locke, and most other great philosophers concerning natural rights and/or human rights.

Maybe my views on human rights don't perfectly match those of the UN, US, or a few prominent philosophers. You know, (most) humans are capable of having thoughts and opinions independently from governments and famous people.

Sex and cars can be dangerous or monopolized. If my country wants to out law dirty polluting and dangerous (how many die in them a year?) then we can. Prostitution brings with it health concerns; HIV, Herpes etc.

Which is why the resolution encourages regulation. The usual solution to the problems of cars is to require that manufacturers adhere to safety and environmental standards - likewise, you ought to institute a licensing system for prostitutes which requires a clean bill of sexual health and compulsory use of protection from STDs, as well as other measures to ensure workers' rights are maintained.

By the way, you and the socialist countries of which you speak are perfectly free to monopolise prostitution and make it a state industry - just as long as the profession is open for people to join it.

Teriamo recently resigned is position in the UN over the solar panel issue, so you won't have to worry about him trying to pass thing or anything else for that matter, for awhile that is.