NationStates Jolt Archive

[This is an OOC post.]

So I'm in the United Nations. Issues come up, and I read through the proposal at vote a few times, trying to figure out the twists and turns embedded in them. I try to read through the discussion thread at least once on a given resolution, sometimes throwing in (even IC) an argument or two summarizing my thoughts about it, as well as getting into debate on my region's message board, trying to sway my Regional Delegate's vote one way or the other on issues I feel strongly about. Finally, I vote myself.

Why?

At least in recent experience, by time a resolution comes to vote, it's too late to have any effect. When was the last time a proposed resolution, having come to vote, failed to pass? (How often does this happen?)

I play NationStates fairly casually -- I like playing it because, unlike something like Kings of Chaos, it's not a time-sucker. I can check up on my nation and the UN once a day for a little bit in the evening. While the UN seems interesting, it also seems like the time I am spending trying to evaluate and argue on proposals up for a vote is wasted. And I find that worrying.

Not only personally -- it's frustrating to feel like I'm wasting my own time, but also like something is wrong with the democratic process of voting on a resolution. If (nearly) every proposal that comes up for a vote passes, then in some sense the only democracy is the set of nations involved in crafting of the proposal and the 6% of Regional Delegates who have to sign on.

Now I know what at least one immediate responses could be: "well, just get involved with the proposal writing process." That's really nice, but most days I just don't have time to sit down and read through all the proposals (and their attendant threads) that *could* come up for a vote and participate meaningfully. Also, since my nation isn't a Regional Delegate, my opinions are likely to hold rather less weight than if I represented a potential 1 of the precious 134 (plus or minus a bit) approvals needed to reach quorum.

(Also, if I find a proposal problematic, I'm in a tough spot -- the proposal's writer only has to find 133 other people to agree with him, whereas I would have to generate such a tidal wave of dissent that not even that many people will agree to sign on. Under the current dynamic, once that last signature appears at the bottom, the conclusion seems nearly foregone.)

I'm not the first in here, by any stretch of the imagination, to lament UN democracy. But allow me to suggest that to a large extent, it is the perceived (if not actual) inevitability of passage that can produce voting apathy. At some point, why is it worth contributing to discussion of a proposal at vote, much less reading it, much less reading the resolution, much less voting? It's just going to pass anyway, most likely.

I don't know what the answer is. But I would like to think that the answer would involve some level of meaningful involvement that didn't require one (at least de facto) to 1) be a Regional Delegate and 2) have enough time to be deeply involved in every proposal from the draft stage.

Right now the UN seems a bit like a forum by and for those people who have lots of time to devote to controlling the process. While I laud those people who devote themselves to carefully writing and promoting proposals, and don't deny that they should have significant influence over the direction of the UN due to their devoted interest, I don't feel that a UN member such as myself who devotes less, but still some, time to the UN should have effectively no influence whatsoever.

And, increasingly, that is how I am beginning to feel -- as if the UN isn't worth any effort, if one can't devote hours every day to it.

Am I wrong? Why? If I'm right, even partly, what can be done to change this?

one thing i guess that could be done is to increase the number of votes required to reach a quorum in the first place though i think it may take a major increase to take effect. Am i right in thinking that a Delegate gets as meany votes as there are UN members in their region? that gives soem regions an extreme amount of powere so maybe a cap or give delegates a vote for every multiple of a number they have (i.e. If a region has 10 members and the multiple we use is 5 then the delegate gets 3 votes, its own vote plus one for every 5 in the region) could be introduced to make things fairer, I'd suggest making it a propsition but for 2 things, Its a gameplay change and therefore illegal plus powerful regions would probably not get behind it.

It seems that nearly 3-4 times a month somebody starts a thread and asks, "Have any UN resolutions failed?"

http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Category:Failed_Resolutions

A number of them have, and this isn't something anybody is trying to *hide*. The problem is, I believe, more along the lines of what you've pointed out ... in order to find the answer to that question, you need to either be willing to just ask a question *before* forming an opinion (a task that many people have difficulty with) or have the time to research out an answer.

If you don't have time to get involved with the entire process (and nobody does), I highly recommend specializing. For example, join a region of like minded nations and see if there is a nitch you can fill ... perhaps your nation could become the expert in international security topics. When a proposal or idea from another topic comes up, learn to trust your allies opinions. When your turn comes up, they hopefully will trust yours. :)

One of the hardest things to do is hand over a bit of sovereignty / decision making over to another nation ... but in a game of 10,000s of players, there are probably a few other nations that share enough ideas with you, that you can maybe find them and help each other.


For example, in my region, we have several active UN players, and I didn't get around to reading the current resolution until *after* reading their comments. Though I've not yet cast my vote, their comments did *stay* my knee-jerk reaction to vote in favour. In other words, their vote and comments are valued and had a significant impact on my decision.

It just sounds like you need to find that group of like minded nations. :)

[This is an OOC post.]

<snipped for brevity>

By the way, I like how you brought this up. Some good discussion can come of this. :)

If (nearly) every proposal that comes up for a vote passes, then in some sense the only democracy is the set of nations involved in crafting of the proposal and the 6% of Regional Delegates who have to sign on.

That has been my basic assessment of the situation in the UN, which is why I decided that the only way for me to really effect change in the UN (at least in the legislative arena) is to write and campaign for proposals.

Also, since my nation isn't a Regional Delegate, my opinions are likely to hold rather less weight than if I represented a potential 1 of the precious 134 (plus or minus a bit) approvals needed to reach quorum.

Maybe. The social dynamics of the forum aren't based solely on Delegate status. Sometimes our opinions hold more weight because of seniority, reputation, or simply good argumentation. The first two take time, but I imagine you could manage the third handily if you had the time to devote to it.

(Also, if I find a proposal problematic, I'm in a tough spot -- the proposal's writer only has to find 133 other people to agree with him, whereas I would have to generate such a tidal wave of dissent that not even that many people will agree to sign on. Under the current dynamic, once that last signature appears at the bottom, the conclusion seems nearly foregone.)

Which (and also because it's hard as hell to repeal Human Rights resolutions) is part of the reason why I and a number of others have adopted the legislative strategy of pre-emptively protecting nation's rights through UN legislation.

I'm not the first in here, by any stretch of the imagination, to lament UN democracy. But allow me to suggest that to a large extent, it is the perceived (if not actual) inevitability of passage that can produce voting apathy. At some point, why is it worth contributing to discussion of a proposal at vote, much less reading it, much less reading the resolution, much less voting? It's just going to pass anyway, most likely.

I think most of us have felt that way at some point. :)

I don't know what the answer is. But I would like to think that the answer would involve some level of meaningful involvement that didn't require one (at least de facto) to 1) be a Regional Delegate and 2) have enough time to be deeply involved in every proposal from the draft stage.

The first one I won't address, but I will note that you don't have to be involved in every proposal from the draft stage. For one thing, I dare say most proposals never make it to this forum, and there are so many proposals that it would be impossible to be involved in drafting every one. Also, I for one have been able to meaningfully participate by getting involved in drafting a limited number of critical proposals. That and starting an organization for improving the UN through legislation and education, but I imagine you don't have the time for that rather extraordinary approach. :D

And, increasingly, that is how I am beginning to feel -- as if the UN isn't worth any effort, if one can't devote hours every day to it.

Am I wrong? Why? If I'm right, even partly, what can be done to change this?

You're partly right, and you can't change it without devoting the same hours you would have to in order to make it worth the effort.

I note that I am not a delegate of my region, though my opinions seem to hold a bit of weight and have resulted into various clauses in some resolutions being changed. Heck, the nation I'm using in the UN forums isn't even a member of the UN.

Nah, we just add those clauses to get you to shut the heck up. :p

Nah, we just add those clauses to get you to shut the heck up. :p

Hmm.....note to self, never assume one is respected for it could just be that one is being equated to Jar Jar Binks

Nah, we just add those clauses to get you to shut the heck up. :p
Shhh, you weren't supposed to tell him that. :p

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

First off, thanks to everyone who's replied so far!

I highly recommend specializing. For example, join a region of like minded nations and see if there is a nitch you can fill ... perhaps your nation could become the expert in international security topics. When a proposal or idea from another topic comes up, learn to trust your allies opinions. When your turn comes up, they hopefully will trust yours. :)

This idea sounds really good.... and while it certainly suggests how to save time and effort trying to figure out how to vote on resolutions up for a vote, it doesn't address the point of, "by time the resolution comes up for a vote it is too late." (I suppose if everyone within a specialization combs the UN boards -- or wherever else -- for drafts pertaining for their specialization, then it does at least in part address this point.)

It's good to see that there is, in fact, a list of resolutions that have failed... but the number is quite small. (Though, I note, the recent Transgender Equality Act was defeated, which is the first in recent memory at least.) Even though resolutions go through a draft phase and a phase of getting Delegate endorsements, it seems remarkable, and frustrating, that the passage rate is so high when many of the issues being proposed on contain at least mildly controversial measures.

For one thing, I dare say most proposals never make it to this forum, and there are so many proposals that it would be impossible to be involved in drafting every one.

So how does one get involved in the drafting process if not in this forum? (Or are you merely referring to an "initial drafting" process which goes on, say, within a region's internal boards before being drafted on this forum?)

That and starting an organization for improving the UN through legislation and education, but I imagine you don't have the time for that rather extraordinary approach. :D

This sounds interesting, how can one find out more about such an organization? You're right that I don't have time for starting one, but if there is one, or if someone is already starting one, I would be interested in finding out more. I'm still pretty much a newbie to the UN dynamic.

Is there any way of structurally changing the UN itself? I know that you can't change the rules of the UN via a UN resolution... but could a sufficiently vigorous discussion on the Technical forum have a chance of resulting in change? And if so, what structural changes might result in a more democratic involvement, for those who are interested to contribute without having hours to spend hunting for various virtual smoke-filled rooms where UN resolutions are crafted? ;)

Nah, we just add those clauses to get you to shut the heck up. :p

Eh, I could settle for that for now :p Needed change is needed change, even if it is the result of exasperation when reasoned debate is insufficient ;)

Many proposals that are put forth.....that is the first draft.

However, UNSA (for one) wasn't submitted to these forums. It went through an extensive draft stage (almost a month iirc) but on off-site forums. You have to be one of the lucky ones that TH wants to edit his stuff to have been able to edit that one.

However, if you don't know a good offsite forum, just do a specialization here. Or you could just quickly skim through the actual topic up for discussion for each proposed resolution (and there's only 5-10 new ones a day). If it interests you or you think that you need in to the drafting process for one of them, go for it. You can be quite selective. If you're only ever actually debating one or two proposals, you'll actually still have a significant say.

And as Mikivity said, anything that has a huge number of posts, probably is headed for vote.

This sounds interesting, how can one find out more about such an organization? You're right that I don't have time for starting one, but if there is one, or if someone is already starting one, I would be interested in finding out more. I'm still pretty much a newbie to the UN dynamic.


There is a forum which provides a listing and information on UN-related organizations. The URL is http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?act=idx

You might also try looking through NSWiki to see if there are other organizations that interest you.

Why?
Because if you dont we will beat you with a stick with nails in it :D

(the Furby loving smurfs made me say that!)

.When was the last time a proposed resolution, having come to vote, failed to pass?

The resolution "The Transgender Equality Act " was defeated 7,226 votes to 6,917.

So how does one get involved in the drafting process if not in this forum? (Or are you merely referring to an "initial drafting" process which goes on, say, within a region's internal boards before being drafted on this forum?)

Sometimes nations will submit a proposal without ever showing it to anyone else, so it's impossible to get involved with those, really. Sometimes proposals are drafted entirely in regional or organizational settings and never reach these boards until they are up for vote. *shrug*

This sounds interesting, how can one find out more about such an organization? You're right that I don't have time for starting one, but if there is one, or if someone is already starting one, I would be interested in finding out more. I'm still pretty much a newbie to the UN dynamic.

I was referring to the National Sovereignty Organization, which you may or may not be ideologically inclined towards, but there are other more neutral organizations such as the United Nations Association about which you could contact the nation of Mikitivity.

Is there any way of structurally changing the UN itself? I know that you can't change the rules of the UN via a UN resolution... but could a sufficiently vigorous discussion on the Technical forum have a chance of resulting in change? And if so, what structural changes might result in a more democratic involvement, for those who are interested to contribute without having hours to spend hunting for various virtual smoke-filled rooms where UN resolutions are crafted? ;)

I can't speak for the Mods or Admin, but going by their statements over the past year or so, I don't think you're going to get them to make any sweeping changes to the game code in the area of the UN. Sorry. :(

At present, the only way I can see of increasing the legitimacy of UN democracy is by making efforts to inform the membership and keep it active.