NationStates Jolt Archive

From: The Republic of Torontia

To: All UN members

As a new nation and a new UN member, Torontia has been shocked at the VERY STRONG left-wing and liberal bias that grips the UN.

Most, if not all of the UN resolutions have been about leftist policies being pushed onto ALL nations, regardless of their own local political system.

This leftist grip is destroying the diversity of the family of nations that is the UN.

Leftists have even made the UN involve the UN in issues that most sane people would regard as issues for nations to decide themselves, like gay 'rights', wage laws, aid to the poorer nations and other issues besides.

In response to the leftist bias in the UN, Torontia proposes a group in the UN that will reflect the veiws of those nations that are to the right of the political spectrum.

This right-wing block can get nations to group together to vote en block on resolutions and offer co-ordination with each other.

This will help us get leftist resolutions retracted and to put forward resolutions that will support free markets, conservative social policies, national sovereignty and the abolition of free social/welfare services and 'aid' to poorer nations.

Nations that fit the following catagories are welcome:

*Conservative democracies

*Conservative dictatorships

*Fascist/Nazi governments

*Military governments

*Religious theocracies, whether Islamic/Christian/etc...

Nations that are prohibited from joining are:

*Communist/socialist governments

*Democratic communist/socialist governments

*Social democratic governments.

*Socially liberal governments.

*Anarchist nations.

President Paul Kaufman

Urcea would like to join.

Ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

:wipes tears of laughter out of eyes:

Wait! I'm not done yet! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! Ha ha ha!!!

:weary from laughter:

Sir, I shake your hand. That was truly amusing, and I salute you for it. One of the best laughs I've had all year. :D

From: The Republic of Torontia

To: Urcea

Your application has been accepted.

The group shall be called the: UN Conservative Alliance (UNCA)

To: Fatus Maximus

Prehaps you should save your laughter for the insane ravings of marxist lunatics such as yourself!

President Paul Kaufman

Why are you listening to the ramblings of a madman!
The U.N caters all nations whatever it's political setup.
This group would only cause trouble and undermine the work of the majority.
If you want a stronger right wing element in the U.N then you must work towards it from within.
This is the modern way, any other will only result in anarchy which i see you are apposed to.
Listen... and learn.

Bloc is spelled "b-l-o-c".

Ok - let's make a few assumptions:

1) Let's say you get your group together
2) Let's say you even get enough members in the group to get a few right wing motions up for vote

How the **** do you intend to get a motion passed when you need approximately 9000 votes to do so in the decidedly left wing United Nations General Assembly?

Well Im also going to try and get right-wing nations to join the UN as well, hopefully tilting the UN in our favour. There are more than 9000 right wing regimes in NS.

Well Im also going to try and get right-wing nations to join the UN as well, hopefully tilting the UN in our favour. There are more than 9000 right wing regimes in NS.

Your mad! Most in the UN have the brains to stay the hell out of your ****ing so called movement that has no chance of ever happening. You are a raveing lunatic. Good luck with your failure of a movement.

Why Im I mad???

Why is it mad o say the UN should stop passing resolution that give fag perverts the right to marry and to waste money on stupid thrid world people who can't be asked to get a job and by their own food!

Why Im I mad???

Why is it mad o say the UN should stop passing resolution that give fag perverts the right to marry and to waste money on stupid thrid world people who can't be asked to get a job and by their own food!
Ah, now you show your true colours. I have no option but to mock you, 'delegate'.

funny thing is if you READ the FAQs there is no right wing or left wing, also it is clear you are racist and a homophobe.

The empire of Sumgy wholeheartedly Disagrees with you and you are Banned from our country.

From: The Republic of Torontia

To: All nations

Torontia does not care much for the left wing criticisms of our plans to build a conservative movement inside the UN.

One day the leftists will be ejected from the UN and the global communist conspiracy will be destroyed.

Then my words will come true, Africans will starve to death and faggots will be shot on site!

President Paul Kaufman

From: The Republic of Torontia

To: All nations

Torontia does not care much for the left wing criticisms of our plans to build a conservative movement inside the UN.

One day the leftists will be ejected from the UN and the global communist conspiracy will be destroyed.

Then my words will come true, Africans will starve to death and faggots will be shot on site!

President Paul Kaufman

Actually, I'm not afraid of that. The world is becoming more left wing, not less. Only in America is this fact false - though even then, your statements above......

I could get into a debate with you about "fags" being permitted the right to get married or other things on your list (free trade was the only one that I considered worthy of consideration, the rest I have a fairly good idea of what I consider right and the reasons why I consider right so I believe I won't be swayed on the issues in the near future), but I hardly have the time these days and I'm not sure if I actually consider you worth my time.

To be honest, I think I have more worthy people worth my attention arguing plot holes and possible allusions to the series on the Harry Potter boards. Enjoy your movement, and good luck actually finding people that believe in what you believe. You'll need all the help you can get getting 1000 votes alone

And the insults begin to pour in!

Hey, I'm off to the basement, it'll be easier to hold than anyplace else once the fighting breaks out.

It's things like this that make me ultimately doubt the concept of moral relativism.

I'll be in the UNOG complex if anybody needs me, don't want to be around when the bombs start dropping.

I'm off to the Stranger's Bar as always. I have absolute faith that nothing bad will ever happen there. :D

w00t! This promises to be entertaining. I'll make popcorn!

Everyone can just chill out.

Well, well ... this is a democracy, so noone can stop political groups to happen. But, let's be honest, this is already the case. Right-winged nations vote for right-winged proposals. That's all the group energy you can get. Especially as right-winged movements aren't very accomodated with showing solidarity. It's just not their thing! I mean, even the word "solidarity", in itself, must sound weird to them. Images of "unpleasant" workers-strikes crowding up public streets must pop into their minds.

As an answer to this proposal I only can say: "DEMOCRATS UNITE!"

Thanks for listening

Cally24
UN-Delegate of the
"Democrats"

Hirota has long wished for an advocate of “right-wing” policies who can supply an intelligent, reasoned and considered argument against some of the libertarian policies proposed in the UN.

When I read the early posts, I had hoped my wishes had come to fruition. Whilst the aims of Torontia appeared idealisitic and naïve to create a solid voting bloc, his arguments seemed well reasoned and balanced.

As I read further down the topic, my wishes shrivelled and died. It would appear to this observer that Torontia is as prejudiced and negative as many other nations who have had conservative policies who have tried to join the UN to bring an end to some of the better libertarian policies.

We hope this fear is unjustified, but we are unoptimistic.

As a nation which see’s itself as center-left in the oversimplified political spectrum, we appreciate the need for balance, but not for bigotry and prejudice. It remains a vain hope that Torontia does not espouse these values and can prove our concerns wrong.

Its about time some conservatism was injected into the UN, if the UN becomes a completely liberalist socialist organisation then were out of here!

Oops just read some earlier posts here....
Not sure about creating a right wing pressure group or whatever, we are decidedly right wing conservatives but we do not approve of bigotry and we certainly don't believe poor people should be shot as Torontia believes, ignored maybe, but not shot, thats a tad unsporting we feel.
If like Hirota says rational 'right wing' or capitalist supporters can give good arguements against certain resolutions then great, and even a thread/message board dedicated to such causes is fine, but a political alliance of right wingers will only provoke the lefties into a response.

If like Hirota says rational 'right wing' or capitalist supporters can give good arguements against certain resolutions then great, and even a thread/message board dedicated to such causes is fine, but a political alliance of right wingers will only provoke the lefties into a response.

Indeed, especially if they are as inflammatory as the nations who have tried to force the UN to comply with right wing agendas.

I don’t think the lefties are overwhelmingly in control of the UN – I think it’s a failure of the right to supply a decent argument and counterbalance that is the biggest problem (as demonstrated in this topic – notice how quickly the original poster decends into such petty and negative comments? This I’ve seen too many times to count from some UN nations). There are nations out there who are moderate in their views who would welcome a few intelligent , well reasoned and eloquent right-wing nations to join the political stew of the un.

The problem is that most of the eloquent right-wing people tend to leave the UN due to a lack of rationable support from their fellow right-wingers. I remember having extended, reasoned debates with Evil-Catzegovina (a dyed-in-the-wool conservative) back when I was drafting Habeas Corpus, but I seriously doubt that such a debate would happen nowadays.

The problem is that most of the eloquent right-wing people tend to leave the UN due to a lack of rationable support from their fellow right-wingers.

And we has some crazy lefties too. You just can't get the staff anymore.


Lady Desdemona of Merwell,
Senior UN representative,
The Black New World,
Delegate to The Order of The Valiant States

And we has some crazy lefties too. You just can't get the staff anymore.

Quite right. but at least one or two are relatively sane....one or two ;)

Quite right. but at least one or two are relatively sane....one or two ;)

I call one!

Do you remember every other day used to be a ban dictatorship fest., the Anarchists who complained that anything they didn't agree with was against freedom, and how both sides bitched about the UCPL. Anward was capitalist scum and a communist pig.

So the original topic... Good luck and NED bless democracy.

Lady Desdemona of Merwell,
Senior UN representative,
The Black New World,
Delegate to The Order of The Valiant States

(OOC)

Yes right wing nations will vote for conservative resolutions, the point of the rightist group in the UN is not to persuade people to vote conservative, but to galvanise the core conservative nations to organise and put forward a strong voting bloc.

It appears to me that left-wing nations have a good degree of co-ordination when voting and supporting their resolutions and right-wingers seem to lack this degree of co-ordination.

Left-wing nations appear to be more active in the UN and use their UN membership to it's FULL advantage. Right-wing nations, a lot of them, seem to join the UN and then NOT bother to vote or use UN resolutions to their advantage.

That is why we need this right wing group, to get nations together and get them to vote as one huge family of right-wing nations.

BTW, there is NOTHING bigoted about my comments on Africans. If in the free market, they cannot afford to purchase food at market prices, then why should we be giving food to them for free by charity?

That distorts the market and is unfiar on those who pay for food.

If Africans cannot AFFORD to BUY their food, they should not have any food.

It's that simple!

Torontia:

On your views of Africans: let's just agree to disagree. I don't see how two such opposing viewpoints can ever be brought into alignment.

On the organisation of the left: I really don't think we are organised, at least not the way you think we are. To get a resolution passed requires organisation yes - the organisation to run a telegram campaign, then to defend your resolution against pretty much any argument that could be possible thrown at it.

But the left is not some homogenous whole, as you seem to think it is. You've got anarchists, communists and communo-anarchists, who want to get rid of all forms of government in order to 'free' the people. Then you've got Fabians, who believe in a large government with much social welfare. Then you've got left-wing dictatorships, such as the real-world Mao and Stalin. Plus you can add in hippie utopias. The left isn't any more united than the right is.

:headbang: If Africans cannot AFFORD to BUY their food, they should not have any food. It's that simple!

Fortunately I just had enough food to puke it into your face, as such statements just make me sick! :mad:

On your views of Africans: let's just agree to disagree.

"Now thats a courageous statement!", said he ironically ... :(

It appears to me that left-wing nations have a good degree of co-ordination when voting and supporting their resolutions and right-wingers seem to lack this degree of co-ordination.There is no organisation, just a vague consensus. But certainly no organisation I know. Sure, you’ll see a few nations working together on a few aims, but certainly no consensus

Left-wing nations appear to be more active in the UN and use their UN membership to it's FULL advantage. Right-wing nations, a lot of them, seem to join the UN and then NOT bother to vote or use UN resolutions to their advantage.That’s true – I think of all the nations on here, the majority could be considered left wing. BUT….That is why we need this right wing group, to get nations together and get them to vote as one huge family of right-wing nations. The left wing does not operate as one voting bloc.

BTW, there is NOTHING bigoted about my comments on Africans. If in the free market, they cannot afford to purchase food at market prices, then why should we be giving food to them for free by charity?

That distorts the market and is unfiar on those who pay for food.

If Africans cannot AFFORD to BUY their food, they should not have any food.

It's that simple!

It would be that simple if you had an oversimplified understanding of the economics. I don’t want to go into this in detail on here, as it’s RL events and this is not RL, it’s NS. But if Europe, the US and the other established economies removed their trade barriers, then Africa as a continent could compete in the world market, earn money, and thus buy food, removing the need for charity.

It’s not that simple, but it’s more accurate than your assertions

Hirota, I actually agree with you.

Im 100% in favour of the EU and USA removing trade barriers, they go against the free market after all!

The EU should abolish the CAP and Americans need to STOP giving their tax dollars to mid western farmers!

Africa should be PART of the global economy, then they will have the money to BUY their food and other products besides.

Charity has only made the situation in Africa WORSE!

The Africans just become dependent on hand outs and it destroys their spirit of enterprise and development and some charitable donations go to corrupt rulers!

A real free market system would mean the END of ALL chairty to Africa and those who starve today may die, but in the long term it will help them and any nation that developes will have to make these sacrifices.

We just shoul not use moralism and emotional blackmail to obscure what needs to be done in Africa. Getting them to stand up on their own two feet must take priority over some guilt ridden actor/singer making concerts and asking us to keep the Africans in a state of dependence.

Plus you can add in hippie utopias.<The ambassador from Community Property leaps to her feet>

"Yeah! Yeah! That's ... like ... so us! Way cool! w00t!!! w00t!!! There it is!"

<Noticing that everyone is looking at her, the ambassador from the Democratic People's Republic of Community Property suddenly shuts up and (sullenly) sits back down>

*shivers uncontrollably*

How can anyone be so.....

See, Torontia? Not all us lefties believe in charity and welfare. I think I have different motivations than you towards Africa – I think that the majority of Africans want to work, and they should be given the chance to compete on an equal footing. I don’t want any Aficans to die, and I’d like to see aid in the short term till they can stand on their own two feet.

What is important is that I hope you appreciate that lefties and righties don’t always disagree, and by having a civil communication on such matters, there can be a consensus if a proper dialogue can be established.

I think we should stop taking about Africa now, it’s served it’s purpose in this discussion.

Bigotry and hatred should not be tolerated by the UN, however it is unfortunately not within the UN's jurisdiction to control the opinion of another nation.

Please do not incite bigotry within these boards, because it can only incite apathy to your cause. In any event, if you wish do discuss the issues of welfare, and its importance, you are in the wrong place.

*shivers uncontrollably*

How can anyone be so.....


Parents are apathetic to their children, then they recieve their impression from other sources. Sometimes the consequences of apathy are more apparent then you think

I think we should stop taking about Africa now, it’s served it’s purpose in this discussion.

I agree

Conservative pro capitalist nations like ours are currently suffering in the UN and thats a fact.
Yet our (Cthag-antil's) views on civil liberties and political freedoms are classed as good and very good respectively, we look after our citizens especially with respects to law and order and education, we keep tax rates down and encourage private enterprise, we honour the fundamental right of anyone to aquire capital.
Yes the police are everywhere, surveillance cameras are used, we execute serious offenders :mp5: , we castrate paediophiles :eek: and our prisoners must work to help repay their criminal debts to the nation, but we are not extremists or do we allow allow extremist behavior to get out of hand, nor do we start wars or provoke others into war.
Its seems hard to us that our type of economy is being comprimised by misguided resolutions (I imagine with intent to do some holistic good) that result in economic stagnation and increased deprivation to others ie us.

Just wanted to get that of our chests.

Cthag-antil armed forces supreme commander and head of state.
Primus Shimo 'ban Rafaria.

Bigotry and hatred should not be tolerated by the UN, however it is unfortunately not within the UN's jurisdiction to control the opinion of another nation.

"The Delegate from the "Democrats"-Region started to applaud to that, soon joined by the whole room which ended in a standing ovation" ... Then the Delegate from the "Democrats"-Region popped out of his pleasant dream.

Who has proof that the UN is basically left-winged in here? That is not true! Just drop into that abortion discussion going on in this forum. It came to a horrible stade for a "leftist". And now this one ...

In my opinion it is just that left-winged nation, never being happy with a status quo situation, want to change things and make more propositions than right-winged. So, naturally, they make themselves more visible. But I really don't believe that left-winged nations are more represented in the UN. The right-winged are simply more likely to be of the "silent"-majority type.

You have no proof whatsoever of a leftist threat in the UN, so stop taking your paranoïa for a fact!

Cally24

Yes the police are everywhere, surveillance cameras are used, we execute serious offenders :mp5: , we castrate paediophiles :eek: and our prisoners must work to help repay their criminal debts to the nation, but we are not extremists or do we allow allow extremist behavior to get out of hand, nor do we start wars or provoke others into war.

May it be known that this would fit within the PDS's definition of extremeist. Henceforth, we respectfully remind Cthag-antil that the definition of extremeism is based on a per-nation opinion, and not a general concensus.

The PDS does not believe in any capital punishment of any kind, and that capital punishment is an extremeist position. furthermore, we do not castrate our sex offenders, but put them through long periods of rehabilitation.

Crime in our nation is totally unknown thanks to our rehabilitation efforts, and our police efforts. (Although we have no cameras, or no weapons on our police force, we have many many police officers, roughly 10 million strong last I checked, its bigger then our military which is one fort in the wouthwestern region of Youpsi, our farthest western state.)

Hopefully no Right-Wing group will never be formed. That's all I've got to say.

united nations leftist r pro palestinian ass holes n are fukin anti semites. Im in

united nations leftist r pro palestinian ass holes n are fukin anti semites. Im in

If I've translated this from gibberish to english correctly you're saying that all UN leftists support the Palestinians and hate the Jews?

Sorry to disappoint you and destroy your sweeping generalisation but I am a "leftist" and am very much pro-Israel.

As for the subject of this thread. I would welcome more paticipation in the UN from "rightist" nations. Though the author of this thread lost any support from me for his efforts to achieve that by the fact he incuded Nazi's in his invitation.

How nice. Nazis and Pro-Israelis gather together. I bet that all the Jews and National Socialists are soon all sitting around a campfire, singing nice songs. An unification of enemies, how sweet!!!

To make sure that everyone understands that it was sarcasm:

1: Free Palestinia!! Free Palestinia!!
2: Down with the Nazis!! Down with the Nazis!!

You have no proof whatsoever of a leftist threat in the UN, so stop taking your paranoïa for a fact!


My government agrees. Furthermore, the number of international security resolutions (which tend to result in increases to global police and military budgets) has significantly increased in 2005, which stereotypically aren't items that one would accuse "leftists" as promoting.

As an author of an international security resolution, I can assure you that my resolution was not popular in a few liberal nations.

I think the use of the term "leftist" is something akin to McCarthyism, and really has no place in this assembly.

Although BlueTiger agrees with Cally24, my government also feels that if Torontia does take what we feel is paranoia as fact and whishes to do something about it, then she should be allowed to make the attempt. I personally wish Torontia the best of luck as I feel she'll need it.

Allan Smith
Republic of BlueTiger represntive

From: The Republic of Torontia

To: All UN members

As a new nation and a new UN member, Torontia has been shocked at the VERY STRONG left-wing and liberal bias that grips the UN.

Most, if not all of the UN resolutions have been about leftist policies being pushed onto ALL nations, regardless of their own local political system.

This leftist grip is destroying the diversity of the family of nations that is the UN.

Leftists have even made the UN involve the UN in issues that most sane people would regard as issues for nations to decide themselves, like gay 'rights', wage laws, aid to the poorer nations and other issues besides.

In response to the leftist bias in the UN, Torontia proposes a group in the UN that will reflect the veiws of those nations that are to the right of the political spectrum.

This right-wing block can get nations to group together to vote en block on resolutions and offer co-ordination with each other.

This will help us get leftist resolutions retracted and to put forward resolutions that will support free markets, conservative social policies, national sovereignty and the abolition of free social/welfare services and 'aid' to poorer nations.

Nations that fit the following catagories are welcome:

*Conservative democracies

*Conservative dictatorships

*Fascist/Nazi governments

*Military governments

*Religious theocracies, whether Islamic/Christian/etc...

Nations that are prohibited from joining are:

*Communist/socialist governments

*Democratic communist/socialist governments

*Social democratic governments.

*Socially liberal governments.

*Anarchist nations.

President Paul Kaufman

Mr. President, I applaud your principle and determination. However, I will say that not all anarchists or leftist states seek to impose leftist views on other nations through the UN policy mechanism, and that some of them may be in favor of protecting your national sovereignty and right to self-determination through that same UN policy mechanism.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

From: The Republic of Torontia

To: All nations

Torontia does not care much for the left wing criticisms of our plans to build a conservative movement inside the UN.

One day the leftists will be ejected from the UN and the global communist conspiracy will be destroyed.

Then my words will come true, Africans will starve to death and faggots will be shot on site!

President Paul Kaufman

I'm always amused whenever someone tries to equate Liberalism with Marxism. Here is what Chairman Mao had to say on the subject of Liberalism:
Liberalism is extremely harmful in a revolutionary collective. It is a corrosive which eats away unity, undermines cohesion, causes apathy and creates dissension. It robs the revolutionary ranks of compact organization and strict discipline, prevents policies from being carried through and alienates the Party organizations from the masses which the Party leads. It is an extremely bad tendency.
and
People who are liberals look upon the principles of Marxism as abstract dogma. They approve of Marxism, but are not prepared to practice it or to practice it in full; they are not prepared to replace their liberalism by Marxism. These people have their Marxism, but they have their liberalism as well - they talk Marxism but practice liberalism; they apply Marxism to others but liberalism to themselves. They keep both kinds of goods in stock and find a use for each. This is how the minds of certain people work.
OOC: I don't agree with Mao's statement that liberals "approve of Marxism". I have many liberal friends and family members, and I can assure you that none of them approve of Marxism. I also know some actual Marxists and I can assure you that they would agree with Mao's statements 100%. There is no left-wing/Communist conspiracy, either in RL or on NS. Truth be told, most true Marxists despise western Liberalism.

However, I will say that not all anarchists or leftist states seek to impose leftist views on other nations through the UN policy mechanism, and that some of them may be in favor of protecting your national sovereignty and right to self-determination through that same UN policy mechanism.
You have stated here the basic foreign policy of the Yeldan government. We believe that our economic/political system works well in Yelda, but that others must choose their own way. We do encourage others to experiment with our methods, but we must warn that your results may vary.

You have stated here the basic foreign policy of the Yeldan government. We believe that our economic/political system works well in Yelda, but that others must choose their own way. We do encourage others to experiment with our methods, but we must warn that your results may vary.

Indeed. Governmental forms and policies that are effective and appropriate for the cultural, biological, and technological characteristics of the Texan Hotrodders may fail miserably when applied to, for example, the nation of DemonLordEnigma.

Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

Cthag-antil is not suffering from paranoia and reminds all nations that it will not tolerate being labelled in that way.
Leftism is a valid word, leftism usually means = socialism + libertarianism.
Resolution 113 decreased our military spending, the next one 114 wrecked my economy and the new one 115 is yet another civil rights bill, so whose paranoid?
The water bill had many more supporters than opposers ie many more lefties or bleeding heart centrists.
So don't call us paranoid, were not paranoid were just very alert!

Secondly, we punish criminals severely indeed (but we dont torture or use physical punishment) we believe in rigid authority and totally blinded law (but you can say what you like with impunity here) we just wish to protect our people and our property from unscrupulous individuals whom have no affection for society or inclination to work hard and get something back, we reward iniative, hard work and honesty with a fat wage packet.

Leftism is a valid word, leftism usually means = socialism + libertarianism.
That's interesting. I was taught that libertarianism (at least American-style libertarianism) is a Right ideology, based upon free-market capitalism. Indeed, in it is about as far from socialism as you can get.

Socialism is about centralised government and public control of facilities and services. Libertarianism is about little or no government (ie just enough to prevent anarchy), and more or less complete private control of facilities and services. I really can't see how you could possibly combine the two, without ending up in either autocracy or anarchy.

Cthag-antil is not suffering from paranoia and reminds all nations that it will not tolerate being labelled in that way.
Leftism is a valid word, leftism usually means = socialism + libertarianism.


The problem is that the label is often abused, in particular when it is applied not to describe a nation's overall or even specific political belief, but as an attempt to describe a possible vote ... often without asking why a nation supported something that itself might be left.

To turn the coin around, last summer my government drafted and proposed a resolution named "Tracking Near Earth Objects", which increased defense industry spending for space sciences programs. Traditionally this comes from defense budgets (i.e. it is a classic International Security issue as defined by Max and co.).

"Right-wing" governments were quick to see a game stat boost and voted in favour. Would it be fair for me to say that all of these right-wing and fascist states didn't see anything beyond the boost to their military budgets? Having worked with argulibly right-wing and left-wing governments, I found the reasoning for support from both groups to be the same:

They felt the actual text of the resolution indentified an international problem, and that working together and increasing domestic spending would address this problem.

My point is, labels are simple ... and often abused.

There is a very long thread about Sunteria's resolution, where you can look to see why nation's actually voted in favour of a global waste water initiative.

And there should now be a discussion about the human rights resolution. While I have no objection to using a label to simplify composition or consistent behavior, in my government's year and a half in the NationStates UN, I've noticed many "left" and "right" wing governments are complicated and willing to cross beyond what simple label might suggest.

[OOC: In other words, people do read the text and decide if they like it or not. The classic example is the two times I've survyed nations about "Moral Decency" resolutions, the vast majority of players hated 'em. But actual voting records so the opposite trend, since 3 of the 4 Moral Decency resolutions that have been adopted actually reached supermajorities -- > 66.6%. This is pretty solid evidence that nations will have general policies that might fit generalizations, but are quick to step out of those generaliziations.

Check out the following:
http://pweb.netcom.com/~mierzwa10k/una/una-200501.pdf

Warning it is long!] :)

There are 4 axis of political ideology, the Libertarians (south) opposed to the Authortarians (north) plus the Socialists (west) and the Capitalists (east) so Hitler for example is a North Eastern axis type Authortarian Capitalist ruler, but very extreme on the authortarian axis.
Whereas Stalin was more a Authortarian Socialist or on the North Western axis, but again extreme on the (Northern) authortarian axis.
Cthag-antil is very centrist overall but generally errs on the side of Authortarian Capitalism, the political North East.
We believe centrism is the ideal but also that all things should be done in moderation including moderation, ie sometimes you need to bully the people if you want them to be united...

There are 4 axis of political ideology, the Libertarians (south) opposed to the Authortarians (north) plus the Socialists (west) and the Capitalists (east) so Hitler for example is a North Eastern axis type Authortarian Capitalist ruler, but very extreme on the authortarian axis.
Whereas Stalin was more a Authortarian Socialist or on the North Western axis, but again extreme on the (Northern) authortarian axis.
Cthag-antil is very centrist overall but generally errs on the side of Authortarian Capitalism, the political North East.
We believe centrism is the ideal but also that all things should be done in moderation including moderation, ie sometimes you need to bully the people if you want them to be united...


Actually - even that is a simplified model of different political situations. It's an improvement on the one we find in the simple "left/right" line method - however an even more complex one is one that we find in this game - where it chooses three axis (Political freedoms, civil freedoms, and economic freedoms). Even this is still nowhere near as complex as we can make the entire system.

Given that the entire concept of left-wing/right-wing began as a result of the seating arrangements in an early French Parliament, and is entirely out of date, perhaps we could completely scrap it? There was no possibility of centrism in that system - you were either on the left side or the right side.

For Gods sake, who really cares about sad wasters halfway accross the world? not me!!

A Right Wing Group sounds fine to me, less pityful charity and do gooding more executions and mass deportations thats what I say! Count me in for the League of Evil Bastards.


Harry the Bastard
ReichsFurher
BastardosLand

I fail to see the connection between political conservatism and "executions and mass deportations". Many communist nations performed these acts, and politically conservative those regimes most decidedly were not.

I fail to see the connection between political conservatism and "executions and mass deportations". Many communist nations performed these acts, and politically conservative those regimes most decidedly were not.
I believe that Bastardosland was referring to Fascist and Nationalist Socialist nations.

On the other hand, while both of those are usually considered 'right-wing', I'm not sure that they'd be considered 'conservative'. Conservative implies traditional, and fascism and nationalist socialism were not, and still are not, traditional government forms in the Real World. As to NS, I can't say.

Krioval you are a fool, executions / mass deportations are an intergral part of a right wing regime and help contribute to the 100% employment figure.
Manufacturing in the Coffin Industry has increased markedly in BastardosLand, crime has also fallen due to death being a good reason for the lack of repeat offenders.

Join the group of Right Wing parties or just leave this thread alone you sad liberal tart!

Harry the Bastard
ReichsFurher
BastardosLand

I'm sure Torontia would want back in the UN. These two together could be pretty forceful.

"There are 4 axis of political ideology, the Libertarians (south) opposed to the Authortarians (north) plus the Socialists (west) and the Capitalists (east) so Hitler for example is a North Eastern axis type Authortarian Capitalist ruler, but very extreme on the authortarian axis.
Whereas Stalin was more a Authortarian Socialist or on the North Western axis, but again extreme on the (Northern) authortarian axis.
Cthag-antil is very centrist overall but generally errs on the side of Authortarian Capitalism, the political North East."

This system is a completely accurate way of determining your political allegiances.

If you believe that no one should own property and the state should provide you with everything, then you are strongly socialist and suppose this is combined with your attitude to civil and political liberties ie perhaps you think everyone should do what ever they like ie taking drugs, depraved sex, mass demonstrations etc.. then you are strongly Libertarian, so overall you would be classified by us as a Socialist Libertarian or a South Westerner (geo politically speaking)

So a Right Wing group to us means a union of strongly authortarian-capitalist or more rarely strongly authortarian-socialist nations, after all Hitler and Stalin had much in common (with their tyrannical authortarian rule) despite their polarised views on economics.
See its very simple.

In fact you could say that there are 4 main ideologies: Authortarian Capitalism, Liberal Capitalism, Authortarian Socialism and Liberal Socialism.
Incorporating all states of economic and civil/political freedom.

If your nation is a warlike Psychotic dictatorship with a moderately regulated free market economy on the Political compass scale you are rated about 90N-50E or (Strongly) Authortarian (Medium) Capitalist.
Imagine the compass as a cross N (Authority) E (Capitalism) S (Liberty) and W (Socialism), numbered on each of the four axis from 00 (the centre) to 99 the furthermost point of that particular axis, If you line up the two coords given for a psychotic dictatorship with a free market you will see that the intersection lies on the upper right hand of the compass, graphically showing you what kind of nation you have.
No matter what kind it is.
The third reich (politically) for instance lies in the same region as the Psychotic dictatorship just mentoned.

Yet in this game, we can find that using 3 axis, you can have VASTLY different results by aligning at various different points on the three axis. I wonder why Max Barry would've chosen 3 axis if 2 should suffice to describe anyone's political stance?
:headbang: :headbang:

The problem is that no one can actually be constrained by even 3 branches - but they work as generalizations. Even someone who is staunchley in favor of a Darwinian Capitalist Anarchy might decide he wants to give Africa a bit of aid. My personal favorite is Abortion which is so bloody difficult to pin people on to even a 3 axis system - especially those who are anti-abortion, but even many who are pro-abortion.

To an earlier post: Executions are actually more on two different prongs:
-Political executions done by (mainly) extreme groups or dictatorships
-Judicial executions which is prodominantely considered a right-wing notion of both detterence (BS - if anyone wants me to explain, I'll be more than happy to) or payback (which I have opinions on....but that's more an agree to disagree item) regarding crimes.

Yet in this game, we can find that using 3 axis, you can have VASTLY different results by aligning at various different points on the three axis. I wonder why Max Barry would've chosen 3 axis if 2 should suffice to describe anyone's political stance?
:headbang: :headbang:

The problem is that no one can actually be constrained by even 3 branches - but they work as generalizations. Even someone who is staunchley in favor of a Darwinian Capitalist Anarchy might decide he wants to give Africa a bit of aid. My personal favorite is Abortion which is so bloody difficult to pin people on to even a 3 axis system - especially those who are anti-abortion, but even many who are pro-abortion.

To an earlier post: Executions are actually more on two different prongs:
-Political executions done by (mainly) extreme groups or dictatorships
-Judicial executions which is prodominantely considered a right-wing notion of both detterence (BS - if anyone wants me to explain, I'll be more than happy to) or payback (which I have opinions on....but that's more an agree to disagree item) regarding crimes.

Honoured leader there are four axis from the centre, not two.
Secondly issues such as abortion or the legalisation of drugs can be supported by different people from different perspectives for different reasons... :rolleyes:
The compass relates to the overall tendancies of a nation and it is to give one a graphical picture of that nation.
Right wing/Left wing describes only one aspect of a nations politics, its civil/political freedoms and given protections from the state, it makes no reference to its economic nature.
Incidently Max Barry had his reasons for the way this game is run but I and others may have chosen different ways, its just a matter of personal taste and programming.

Civil and political freedoms are very closely related, so close in fact that either can be defined somewhere on one of two axis that are opposed to each other namely Authority and Liberty, ie legalising heroin I would say is (relatively) a pretty liberal civil freedom I would rate it at about 80 on the Liberty axis, whereas criminalising abortion is (relatively) a slightly Authortarian measure say a 26 on the Authortarian axis.

Iam surprised it troubles you so much.... ;)

Honoured leader there are four axis from the centre, not two.

False - an axis has two ends - Authoritarian is on the opposite end from Libertarian - but the same Axis

Secondly issues such as abortion or the legalisation of drugs can be supported by different people from different perspectives for different reasons... :rolleyes:

Even more evidence that a 4 or 6 points is a generalization, not an actual answer

The compass relates to the overall tendancies of a nation and it is to give one a graphical picture of that nation.

And therefore, a generalization - which is what I'm arguing. As I said, you can get more or less specific by making more or less axis.

Right wing/Left wing describes only one aspect of a nations politics, its civil/political freedoms and given protections from the state, it makes no reference to its economic nature.
Incidently Max Barry had his reasons for the way this game is run but I and others may have chosen different ways, its just a matter of personal taste and programming.

On that we're agreed

Civil and political freedoms are very closely related, so close in fact that either can be defined somewhere on one of two axis that are opposed to each other namely Authority and Liberty, ie legalising heroin I would say is (relatively) a pretty liberal civil freedom I would rate it at about 80 on the Liberty axis, whereas criminalising abortion is (relatively) a slightly Authortarian measure say a 26 on the Authortarian axis.

I would disagree. Both of your examples are (for the most part) civil freedoms. Political freedoms is more of "how much say does one have in politics?" If you have a total democracy (so everyone has a vote on each issue), then you have the purest form of political freedoms. However, if you have a iron clad dictatorship where there are no elections whatsoever and anyone who suggests them is thrown in jail with a pending execution date, then you have little or no political freedoms. Even dictatorships can legalize heroin usage (and therefore, be very libertarian towards civil issues), but if they don't tolerate discontent, then they have no political freedoms.

Iam surprised it troubles you so much.... ;)

Perhaps this will explain better.

The new and tiny Kingdom of Retrostalgia would like to offer it's support and wishes, if possible, to pursue membership in this worthwhile and hopefully someday powerful voting bloc.
However being Retrostalgia’s newly appointed Minister of Finding Crap Out I have spent much time looking and reading through U.N proposals and arguments in order to assist Ambassador Post in drafting the Father's opinions.
Questions some individuals seem to float between RL and NS and, at least from reading their posts, have trouble distinguishing between the two.
In RL, as an example, all the aid we can offer countries within Africa, though well intentioned, will actually make things worse. The true definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time. In RL I am all for helping individuals and countries, but sometimes, like with my own children, helping them means letting them do it themselves.
In NS, however, I was unable to find a country called Africa, and if there was one I doubt the Father would care very much for it.
Anyway, on the political spectrum I feel that denying the far left's connection to Marxism to be the only thing laughable in many of these posts.
Over and over in the short time we have been members of the U.N. my King, my country, her children and yea our very culture, the culture of Glorious Retrostalgia have been under attack.
This aggression cannot stand and we pledge here and now, with the approval of the Father, that we will if accepted work as a willing partner to bring sanity and responsible profitable progress for all nations.
Thank you for your time and consideration
Minister of Finding Crap Out
Jim Newton

The new and tiny Kingdom of Retrostalgia would like to offer it's support and wishes, if possible, to pursue membership in this worthwhile and hopefully someday powerful voting bloc.Sadly Jim, the nation which proposed this bloc has left the UN, and gone the same way as so many naive right wing nations.

Shame really, I thought he had some potential.

Honoured Forgotten Lands leader,

I understand what your saying and I concede that the Compass is a generalisation, however it is as valid a tool as any other to illustrate a nation's politico economic status, sadly my explanation may have been slighty flawed in parts but the general idea iam trying to put across I feel is a good one, and not mine by the way.
Axis should perhaps be changed to 'arm' because I concurr that the axis of Authority and Liberty are two sides of the same coin, like you say.
Anyway its good to hear from other nations even if they are being critical!
At least, unlike some leaders/representatives, you raise some worthwhile points.

Respectfully
Primus of Cthag-antil

The EU should abolish the CAP and Americans need to STOP giving their tax dollars to mid western farmers!

Whoa, whoa, hold on a minute. Have you seen the midwest? Do you have any idea how many farmers there are, and how many millions of acres are dedicated to agricutlure in the midwest? If farming in America were not subsidized by the US government, do you have any idea what would happen?

Having firsthand knowledge of Ohio farmers and farmland I firmly believe that it is a very good thing for the US to preserve it's own agrictulturists, both economically and culturally. And, unless you'd like to see the jobless rate up to 35% and the entire center of the nation a giant wasteland of borken down combines and forgotten tractors, I feel it's really the only option.

If global buisness is to be fair then local governments should butt out and stop giving subsidies to economically unviable industries.
Britain sacked its entire coal mining workforce as coal mined in the UK cost too much due to a lower demand, strict industrial regulations and higher worker pay then say coal purchased from China.
Instead of subsidising (bailing out) the coal industry with Tax Payers money the UK took the courageous step of abandoning it completely, instead directing rescources where they were most needed ie schools, infrastucture and hospitals.
Agriculture should be supported domestically in case of war or other emergency but not subsidised to compete with other producers internationally.
I had submitted a proposal to end subsidy but it lacked support.

Primus of Cthag-antil

(Primus = Supreme commander (of the Army and Police) in our language)

Instead of subsidising (bailing out) the coal industry with Tax Payers money the UK took the courageous step of abandoning it completely, instead directing rescources where they were most needed ie schools, infrastucture and hospitals.

OOC: And that worked so well...

OOC: And that worked so well...
Didn't it just... *shudders*

If global buisness is to be fair then local governments should butt out and stop giving subsidies to economically unviable industries.
Britain sacked its entire coal mining workforce as coal mined in the UK cost too much due to a lower demand, strict industrial regulations and higher worker pay then say coal purchased from China.
But global business doesn't have to be held to someone's arbitrary interpretation of what it "fair". Capitalism is hardly "fair"--international capitalism even less so.

Either way, as a agriculturist myself and as close friend to many who rely on farming for their living in the area I oppose the US government "giving up" on farming in the US.

Would you and your colleagues be prepared to recieve generous government compensation payments for the closure of your farms and perhaps sale of land, and start up new buisnesses elsewhere?

Because if this ever comes up in the game Il choose the opinion that matches the above most closely.

Obviously those within a market poor industry are going to want subsidy but why should other citizens have to foot the bill?
Not to mention the effect it will have on international trade, ruining poor nations some for whom depend on a few agricultural exports, unable to sell their own goods in their own countries because the imports from the heavily subsidised rich producers are much cheaper.
Don't forget the trade wars either, subsidy and tax tariffs used to protect an industry for political reasons damaging the export values of goods from other nations whom retaliate with their own subsidies and import tariffs.

Primus of Cthag-antil

Would you and your colleagues be prepared to recieve generous government compensation payments for the closure of your farms and perhaps sale of land, and start up new buisnesses elsewhere?

I know I wouldn't. Farmers are entrepreneurs. Their field is founded on their desire for independence and economic liberty. There's a love for the land involved, too that simply isn't “relocate-able”. For example, I plan to stay in my rural Ohio county for a long time. I find it beautiful. I go to Florida, and Canada, and California and find them beautiful, too. But my land is beautiful because it's home. My home. That's why I value it, and why I desire my government to provide any possible financial allowances for me to keep it, and to make a living with it.