NationStates Jolt Archive

I realize this is a very extreme proposal, and since I feel it is necessary to have it the best possible, I would like people to give me their opinions and advice about it.
Separation of Church and State
The Furtherment of Democracy- Strong
Description:
DEFINING "nations" to mean all non-Theocratic U.N nations.
REALIZING that in the modern world we live in, some religions are more powerful/influential than others.
NOTING that all monotheistic religions, by their very defintion, cannot agree with other religions.
CONVINCED that a religion using its influence to effect legislation is unfair and wrong.
REMEMBERING Resolution #19, Religious Tolerance, and how important religious tolerance is.
CREATING the United Nations Council for Religous Neutrality, UNCFRN, to oversee the progress of this resolution.
REQUIRING that nations create laws from no particular religious standpoint.
RESOLVING that the U.N. is opposed to any legislation created in the name of any god/gods.
STRONGLY URGES that nations repeal all previous legislation based on religious views.

That violates soverignity in so many ways...

What about Theocracies? There's a couple of them floating around in the UN.

One main thing that I've noticed is the fact that you're creating a council within each UN nation, that has the power to overrule already established laws, which is a complete violation of sovereignty.


Creating Stuff
Committees may be created, as long as certain things are kept in mind: nations do not sit on committees, they are staffed by mystical beings that instantly spring into existance and live only to serve on said committee. Committees are also bound by the above MetaGame rules. Also, keep in mind that Committees are additions to Proposals; they shouldn't be all the Proposal does.
From what I can see, this council could be a violation of the rules, seeing as this is all the proposal does.

Okay, thanks. I'll edit this up. I didn't notice the mystical council being stuff.
And about Sovereignty, why did you jointhe UN if you wanted complete sovereignty?

A resolution for the separation of church and state? A brillian idea. I'm amazed noboby else thought of it.

DECLARING "nations" to mean all non-Theocratic U.N nations

That is probably illegal, as it basically makes your resolution not apply to all UN nations.

i agree, this is a very good idea and I wonder why it has not been posted before. You will most definitely receive the Allied States of West Kiljaro's full support on this proposal.

negative. this is a total breach of sovereignty. this type of legislation should be at the discretion of each nation.

If We are no longer a nation according to this proposal, does that mean We have to give up our office space in the UN headquarters? We just remodeled.

Oh, if you want to be sovreign why did you the UN? All it does is dictate what you can or can't do.
No, if you are a Theocracy, this entire resolution will not effect you, but I didn't know how to word that. And to it not dictating to all nations, does a theocracy have to follow the religious tolerance resolution? They won't. So I accepted that theocracies don't apply. Is that against the rules? I'm not sure. If it is, I'll find a way around it.
Thank you, Kiljaro.

If We are no longer a nation according to this proposal, does that mean We have to give up our office space in the UN headquarters? We just remodeled.
You got an office! For crying out loud, I've been stuck down in one of the boiler rooms for the past six months.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

This proposal is nothing more than trying to set up a New World Order and A World Government to where all countries slowly but surely lose their Sovreignty.

I also don't belive this is legal. You can't say that one resolution dosn't apply to certain types of governments. It dosn't work that way for one and two, it also undermines the entire idea behind the proposal itself. The main thing this type of idea is for is stopping theocracies and you can't ban them from the UN due to the laws on what a proposal can do. And for the record, people have came up with this idea, many times, and it's always been shot down. I don't think you can make it workable, no matter how much you change it. Honestly, I'm all for the seperation of state and church, but on a UN level, it dosn't work.

Greetings.

We of Roathin are glad that we did not see fit to claim godhood, as our abyssal father attempted to, who failed in the act of claim. We are interested to see, however, how you intend to define theocracy and why you have limited the statement further by highlighting monotheistic religions.

As a half-daemonic lord of the abyssal realm, we of Roathin know just how far deity (and Deity) extend. We assure you that your proposal is folly.

Why so?

If a God or gods exist, then it is fruitless to start a philosophical or political battle against a theological force. If they do not, then it is slightly more fruitful. However, how would you classify nations of ancestor-worshippers, followers of the Way, our friends of the ZenSunni persuasion, the nations who bow to the great god Technology (and those who worship blind Justice and lame Democracy)?

We invite you to define theocracy more closely. It might eventuate that none of us are theocrats by definition - or worse, all of us.

A resolution for the separation of church and state? A brillian idea. I'm amazed noboby else thought of it.

Is that sarcasm? It's difficult to tell on paper. There are currently quite a few resolutions that seperate church and state in the areas that it is possible to extricate them - I wrote a seperation resolution a while ago, and ended up finding out that everything that needed to be done without destroying theocracy completely was covered by said resolutions.

What I don't like about this particular resolution (looking at it without the previous resolutions in mind) is its definition of "Nations" as "Non-Theocratic nations", which is a folly. Simply say that the resolution applies to non-theocratic nations. But either way, you're not accomplishing anything with this resolution since it simply means that the NON theocratic nations can't make laws that say "God ordains this".

change the wording so that theocracys are incuded, but as thier religion is thier government, it won't matter to them.

And about Sovereignty, why did you jointhe UN if you wanted complete sovereignty?
Don't misrepresent sovereigntists. We all know that the UN has the power to take away our sovereignty over issues, we just believe that there are issues and manners of doing this that shouldn't be done. We're advocates for responsibility and pragmatic government, not of complete secession from the UN--regardless of what some anti-sovereigntists might mis-represent it as.


And I disagree with the seperation of church and state. I believe in democracy, and that means that I believe a people should be allowed to submit themselves to a government supported church, even if I feel it unwise.

I feel a more constructive proposal would secure freedoms to worship freely in nations, rather than forcing some governments to conform to other governments' methods of exacting liberty.

As long as the freedom of religion and worship exists AND is enforced, we don't need this resolution. Given however that many religions ban and/or persecutes other religions, I think that the separation of church and state is a good idea, but again the citizens DO have a right to vote to accept religious-based laws. Keep in mind that many theocracies also suppress democracy and voting as well, in the name of their religion.

As long as freedom of religion and democratic rights are enforced, I don't think we need yet another resolution delineating it further.

I don't know what to do.... it seems so obvious that there should be this resolution, but it seems there is no way to make it legal.... I mean, didn't Citizen Rule basically eliminate complete monarchy? And how can any resolution in the category Furtherment of Democracy apply to every nation in the UN? Some U.N. nations aren't democratic, really.

We invite you to define theocracy more closely. It might eventuate that none of us are theocrats by definition - or worse, all of us.

According to the teachings of the Holy Otaku Church of the Eternal Kawaii, all legitimate government is ultimately theocratic in nature, since just law is by definition human understanding of the Divine Will. Obviously, the way different governments approach the Divine Will varies from society to society. We are blessed to be in direct communion with the Cute One, Whose hand guides Our nation's government towards Our peoples' good. From what We have seen of other cultures here, apparently they have to make do with more roundabout methods.

According to the teachings of the Holy Otaku Church of the Eternal Kawaii, all legitimate government is ultimately theocratic in nature, since just law is by definition human understanding of the Divine Will. Obviously, the way different governments approach the Divine Will varies from society to society. We are blessed to be in direct communion with the Cute One, Whose hand guides Our nation's government towards Our peoples' good. From what We have seen of other cultures here, apparently they have to make do with more roundabout methods.

Very roundabout indeed... in fact , it looks like many need to listen harder :) What are the other interesting beliefs of the Holy Otaku Church of the Eternal Kawaii (and how much Japanese do you actually speak?)?

Prime Minister Timothy McKenzie
Constitutional Monarchy of Bunny Pancake
UN Delegate of the White Dwarf Dominion

Esteemed Members of this August Body,

We would be remiss if we did not point out the obvious: the most basic of laws are moralistic in nature, and morality often stems from faith. To enact a complete seperation of church and state would be to throw many long-standing edicts and laws into turmoil.

The Nine Realms does NOT support any seperation of church and state, as our nation is founded on the ideals of our faith. Should such a resolution pass, we would immediately withdraw from the United Nations and would urge the thousands of nation members with deep theological roots to do the same.

In Troth,

Douglas Bjornson
Ambassador to the United Nations
In service to His Imperial Majesty, Richard Stevenson, Emperor of the Nine Realms

I have to agree with the seperation of church and state in real life. If there was no seperation then I as a Jew would not feel very good with all the Christians in office. Sure we control Hollywood, but anyone could control Hollywood.

Anyhow, I see how this could be somthing you would want in the NationStates world. Very important.

I could see this possibly working, however, however, I believe that the government shoud be able to take certain measures to control religions as to avoid conflict between differnet groups of people.

Here's a proposal I wrote a while ago, and if one of y'all wants to use it as a basis for a legal proposal that addresses the separation of church and state that's fine with me.

Separation of Church and State

A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

Category: Human Rights
Strength: Significant

Description: The NationStates United Nations,

BELIEVING that the joining of governmental and religious entities often leads to negative consequences such as oppression, tyranny, and general harm to sovereign individuals.

NOTING that this august body has in the past expressed discontent with those sorts of negative consequences.

ENCOURAGES nations to place reasonable and practical limits on the relationship between governmental and religious entities in the interest of liberty and fairness.

URGES nations to refrain from causing harm to sovereign individuals on the basis of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

But, that is better than mine, but it doesn't enforce anything. It encourages and urges.

But, that is better than mine, but it doesn't enforce anything. It encourages and urges.
What do you expect, Texan's a sovereigntist.

Greetings.

We of Roathin do not govern a democracy. We are the scion of the dread lord of the Abyss known as 'Dark Talon', and we inherit on his side a wealth of powers and responsibilities in that shadowed realm of fire. Our late mother was princess of the realm; it is from her that we inherit the wide spaces of the Grand Duchy of Roathin by law, which was indeed taken by us under right of conquest in millennia past.

We are as politically incorrect among democracies as any other might be. But we are not a theocracy. We realise that we are not a god, and are somewhat skeptical of most others claiming such exaltation.

Yet, there is strength in people, and a strength in gods. That people might rise to achieve their highest potential and that gods defend them from inimical superpotence which would otherwise destroy them: this then "is life, joy, empire and victory."