NationStates Jolt Archive

A DRAFT RESOLUTION submitted for peer review by the FEDERATION OF FRATERCULA for the purpose of the FURTHERANCE OF DEMOCRACY.

WHEREAS a stated goal of this body is to devolve the rule of nations to their respective citizenries;

WHEREAS representative government is a system recognized as efficient in the realization of said goal and employed by a significant number of member states;

WHEREAS the process of redistricting is alarmingly prone to manipulation by partisans seeking to unjustly maintain or further their positions; and

WHEREAS this manipulation threatens the legitimacy and success of representative government,

BE IT HEREBY RESOLVED THAT THESE UNITED NATIONS

REQUIRE the formation in all republics of independent and nonpartisan Boundary Commissions to oversee the definition of constituencies;

MANDATE the meeting of such Commissions to occur no less than twice per cycle of the election in question;

GRANT these Commissions the authority to rule any current or future constituency as having been inappropriately defined, and to conduct the immediate and appropriate redefinition thereof;

FORBID the occurrence of any election in which the definition of constituencies is questionable, as evaluated by the Commissions, until its concerns have been resolved; and

REMAIN seized of the matter.

WHEREAS a stated goal of this body is to devolve the rule of nations to their respective citizenries;

Which resolution stated that?

WHEREAS representative government is a system recognized as efficient in the realization of said goal and employed by a significant number of member states;

Actually, dictatorships tend to be more efficient. You don't have politics mucking up the mess.

WHEREAS the process of redistricting is alarmingly prone to manipulation by partisans seeking to unjustly maintain or further their positions; and

WHEREAS this manipulation threatens the legitimacy and success of representative government,

And this affects most of the UN in what way? Unless you're talking about regions.

BE IT HEREBY RESOLVED THAT THESE UNITED NATIONS

REQUIRE the formation in all republics of independent and nonpartisan Boundary Commissions to oversee the definition of constituencies;

MANDATE the meeting of such Commissions to occur no less than once per calendar year;

GRANT these Commissions the authority to rule any current or future constituency as having been inappropriately defined, and to demand the immediate redefinition thereof;

Great. So all you do is move the same problem up one level. Now you'll have the Board doing the same thing the politicians currently do.

FORBID the certification of any election in which the definition of constituencies was questionable, as evaluated by the Commissions;

ESTABLISH an international body, Fairness in the Apportionment of Institutional Representation, to hear all appeals of decisions made by the Commissions; and

The Another Damned Committee phenomena. Ya know, you can manage to do this without the committee.

REMAIN seized of the matter.

We have hospitals to help with that.

Which resolution stated that?
#8.

Actually, dictatorships tend to be more efficient.Certainly not in achieving citizens' rule.

And this affects most of the UN in what way?Illegitimate, failing member states weaken the legitimacy of the UN.

Now you'll have the Board doing the same thing the politicians currently do.But politicians are partisan.

Ya know, you can manage to do this without the committee.We can certainly kill the committee.

#8.

Here's the text:

Citizen Rule Required


A resolution to increase democratic freedoms.

Category: The Furtherment of Democracy
Strength: Strong
Proposed by: Aschen

Description: This is a resolution to require all nations to grant self-rule to all citizen on some level. Local, Regional, or National is no matter, just so long that all citizens have some say and control over the way they are governed.

These measures would promote international peace and serve as a deterent to the formation of so called "rouge nations" that to this day threaten all nations.

Votes For: 11546

Votes Against: 7233

Implemented: Fri Apr 4 2003

Nowhere does it state that as a goal of the UN.

Certainly not in achieving citizens' rule.

Still doesn't stop them from being more efficient governments over all.

Illegitimate, failing member states weaken the legitimacy of the UN.

No, that's the TPP's job. When you consider that the UN itself is more and more taking over the role of governing its members, the status of member nations is not important.

But politicians are partisan.

And the committees you mention in your draft are made of politicians.

We can certainly kill the committee.

Good. One less item of uselessness in the UN.

Nowhere does it state that as a goal of the UN.Simply because the word "goal" is not used? Certainly the passage of the resolution shows that the UN supports the idea as worthy of pursuit.

Still doesn't stop them from being more efficient governments over all.That's not what the resolution says. It says "efficient in the realization of said goal."

the status of member nations is not importantI think that's a fallacy in light of the purpose of the UN being the protection etc. of its member states.

And the committees you mention in your draft are made of politicians.Do you assert that no group of people can be nonpartisan? The Commissions are independent: they could well (and likely should) comprise non-politicians.

Simply because the word "goal" is not used? Certainly the passage of the resolution shows that the UN supports the idea as worthy of pursuit.

The passage was passed in the early days of the UN. As it stands, unless the words are used, it's not a goal. Exact wording is important these days, unlike back then when they could pass a resolution stating hippos to be big.

That's not what the resolution says. It says "efficient in the realization of said goal."

As there is no goal of the UN relating to that, I simply went for the most efficient government system. If you wish to go for ones most matching the imaginary goal, then it's anarchies.

I think that's a fallacy in light of the purpose of the UN being the protection etc. of its member states.

Where do you see anything saying the UN is actually out to protect you? If I wanted to blast your nation back to being monkeys in trees, the only thing that could stop me from doing it is any allies you may have. In no case is the UN going to be a help.

Do you assert that no group of people can be nonpartisan? The Commissions are independent: they could well (and likely should) comprise non-politicians.

Stop and think about this: Commissions are either filled with politicians or overseen by politicians. In either case, politicians directly influence their decisions. If they weren't politicians in at least some form, they likely wouldn't get the job.

The passage was passed in the early days of the UN.Nonetheless, the UN hasn't abandoned its commitment to its citizens since, and this resolution is another expression of that.
In either case, politicians directly influence their decisions.Do you propose a way to avoid this, then?

Nonetheless, the UN hasn't abandoned its commitment to its citizens since, and this resolution is another expression of that.

Nor has the UN pursued it in that avenue. Keep in mind the UN may not actually affect government styles more than it already has.

Do you propose a way to avoid this, then?

Yes. Leave out the committees and just pass a law.

Yes. Leave out the committees and just pass a law.
This is tricky. A law stipulating that no gerrymandering should ever occur has no teeth. How could its existence be determined except on a case-by-case basis?

This is tricky. A law stipulating that no gerrymandering should ever occur has no teeth. How could its existence be determined except on a case-by-case basis?

*cough* Your pardon, Ayid, but we beg to differ.

Vastiva has a very strict law about gerrymandering, intended to keep the feuds between the various Beys and Pashas to a minimum - in short, they don't draw the districts nor have any control over the districting, this is controlled by the Chief Architects department.

Attempting to muck with the system is punishable as a Treasonous Offense, as it would directly affect the well-being of the populous without their best interests in mind.

We find this to have significant "teeth", and as districting has to pass through several checks, it is easily determined.

We are sorrowful you cannot pass such laws in your nation, and are forwarding a copy of our laws.

Is your law then not doing just what my resolution would prescribe all republics to do?

Is your law then not doing just what my resolution would prescribe all republics to do?

Are you suggesting that your proposal, if made law, would only affect republics?

*sigh*


A DRAFT RESOLUTION submitted for peer review by the FEDERATION OF FRATERCULA for the purpose of the FURTHERANCE OF DEMOCRACY.

Ok, up for review.



WHEREAS a stated goal of this body is to devolve the rule of nations to their respective citizenries;

False. We're a Sultanate, not a democracy. That's why we have progress. Democratic process exists at the lowest level of governance, nowhere else.



WHEREAS representative government is a system recognized as efficient in the realization of said goal and employed by a significant number of member states;

We have never found it efficient.



WHEREAS the process of redistricting is alarmingly prone to manipulation by partisans seeking to unjustly maintain or further their positions; and

WHEREAS this manipulation threatens the legitimacy and success of representative government,

Alright.



BE IT HEREBY RESOLVED THAT THESE UNITED NATIONS

REQUIRE the formation in all republics of independent and nonpartisan Boundary Commissions to oversee the definition of constituencies;

Commissions? Why?



MANDATE the meeting of such Commissions to occur no less than once per calendar year;

Oh good. We mandate the use of the IsoMayan Calendar by this body in Vastiva. As that has a "year" of 2000 orbits of Earth around the Sun, we find this perfect.

We further are passing laws insisting the same members serve on the Boundary Commissions at each meeting, without replacement or alteration.



GRANT these Commissions the authority to rule any current or future constituency as having been inappropriately defined, and to demand the immediate redefinition thereof;

"We demand redefinition!"
"Thank you. Now sit down."



FORBID the certification of any election in which the definition of constituencies was questionable, as evaluated by the Commissions;

Certification of elections? You certify them? We verify them, so this "certification" is rather useless.


ESTABLISH an international body, Fairness in the Apportionment of Institutional Representation, to hear all appeals of decisions made by the Commissions; and

REMAIN seized of the matter.

Well, they can hear whatever they like - they have no power to do anything about it.

And we can suggest surgery or medication for those seizures...

Are you suggesting that your proposal, if made law, would only affect republics?Well, where there is no representation, can there be gerrymandering?

Democratic process exists at the lowest level of governance, nowhere else.Nonetheless, you still have power in the hands of the people. That you are a Sultanate doesn't make the clause untrue.

We have never found it efficient.The resolution does not say "every state" for exactly that reason. Some of us have found it efficient. Do you think the wording is objectionable to those who haven't?

Commissions? Why?That was certainly DLE's point. Why, because I haven't figured out a way to mandate safe redistricting that doesn't need to be applied case-by-case.

We mandate the use of the IsoMayan CalendarHaha. Duly noted and revised in the original post.

"We demand redefinition!"Noted and revised as well.

Certification of elections?Hmm. Revised. Better?

And we can suggest surgery or medicationThe joke's already been made on this thread. :p

Well, where there is no representation, can there be gerrymandering?

Ah. I would just advise you to be careful not to appear to be targetting a specific nation type, as that would violate the proposal rules (OOC: which you can find stickied at the top of this forum).

ooc: congrats on dealing so well with the hostility; Vastiva and DLE take no prisoners... I'm not sure of my nation's position on this proposal draft just yet, but I like your approach.

WHEREAS the process of redistricting is alarmingly prone to manipulation by partisans seeking to unjustly maintain or further their positions...Which is why we don't have legislative districts.

You're American, aren't you?

This problem can be readily avoided through the the practise of electing representatives by means of party lists, or through the use or proportional voting systems as advocated in RL by the much-maligned Lani Guinier.

Allemande uses lists to populate its National Assembly and proportional voting systems for municipal offices ever since our Supreme Court declared the delineation of voting districts to be a violation of the principle of "one man, one vote."

Our constitutional scholars will be more than happy to help any other country that is concerned by this problem to eliminate it entirely by implementing either system.

FORBID the occurrence of any election in which the definition of constituencies is questionable, as evaluated by the Commissions, until its concerns have been resolved...This is a bad idea.

If I want to turn a democracy into a dictatorship for life, all I have to do is find a way to tie up the definition of districts forever. If no elections are held, then I can't be replaced.

Hmmm.... So now we are, finally, going to say it:

The UN owns you, and wants your tax dollars.

Perfect...Let's do it. We'll quickly abolish international governments, countries, and anything resembling international law. After all, we'll one country now.

No....Darkumbria can not support a blatant run over its sovreign powers, plain and simple. For any nation to give up such power would be sheer stupidity.

OOC: I think....if this passes, it ends the game for us all. After all, at that point.....We don't have anything legislate.

This is an international group, not a national one. My nation has it's own national group that regulates the lower levels of government and answers to the Emporer.

This resolution will never pass, it belongs in the silly proposals thread, not here for serious discussion.