NationStates Jolt Archive

Biometric Passports

A resolution to improve world security by boosting police and military budgets.

Category: International Security

Strength: Strong

Description: Biometric Passports :)

Aim to improve: International Security :mp5:

Description: All citizens of UN countries will be issued with BIOMETRIC PASSPORTS. These will contain information on the citizen such as name, DOB and nationality, photo, fingerprint and an Retina image of their eye. This will be able to: Confirm nationality, Deter criminals for entering the country, Reduce terrorism, Reduce illegal immigration and identity theft :headbang:

COME ON I NEED YOUR SUPPORT

Voting Ends: Wed Jun 22 2005

The smilies don't help.

Otherwise, I have no real need and no real reason to argue against it, so I'm neutral.

Cobdenia doesn't have this sought of technology! We could do photographs (although colour photographs are too expensive to be practical), and possibly fingerprints. Iris image is way ahead of us...

While Krioval does have, and use, such technology, we feel that it would be unreasonably to compel less-advanced nations to conform to our level. Thus, Krioval would likely vote against this proposal. On the other hand, Krioval is interested in border security in general, and will monitor this discussion with interest.

~ Yuri Sokolev

Actually the UN did at one point pass a resolution that would require all nations to have the same information on their passports, however somewhere along the line it mysteriously disappeared. There's an article about it in the NSWiki (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Passport_Harmonisation).

Confirm nationality, Deter criminals for entering the country, Reduce terrorism, Reduce illegal immigration and identity theft

How would it be able to that better than non-biometric passports?

How would it be able to that better than non-biometric passports?
One assume they'd be harder to forge.

Are these passports compulsory, so everyone has to have one? Or do you just plan to change every nations passports to biometric?

The proposal seems to say every person must have such a passport, but this seems expensive and unnecessary.

One assume they'd be harder to forge.

Actually, they're the easiest to forge. I create one every once in awhile just for the fun of it.

The reason why they are so easy to forge is simple: Pretty much everything biometric passports use is public record. All I need is a quick photograph of your eye with the right bulb and ten minutes with something you've touched to have all of the information I need. The rest is pretty easy to get. I can also record your voice, steal blood samples, pick up shed hair and skin, and many other items necessary to impersonate you.

Basically put, the only way you are immune to this is if you shave off all of your hair, skin yourself alive, remove all of the blood from your veins, and walk around all day with your eyes closed and never saying a word. I suspect biometric security is soon to be replaced by something else.

DLE, do you like any proposal?????

I'm undecided, i think that poor countries are going to need the technology to make these passports, meaning that the big nations are going to have to pay for them

However, if it can boost security, then I may be all for it. I think i need more information first

DLE, do you like any proposal?????

Yeah. I just hate most of them. Especially ones that advise items that only the walking dead can make effective use off.

They could be somewhat usefull, but you still need to establish who's going to pay and manufacture all of it.

Actually, they're the easiest to forge. I create one every once in awhile just for the fun of it.One also assumes that most terrorists don't have the resources of pan-galactic empires. And since they would have all the other things a normal passport has, they would tend to be more secure.

A deadbolt can be bypassed, but a door with a deadbolt is more secure than one without.

One also assumes that most terrorists don't have the resources of pan-galactic empires. And since they would have all the other things a normal passport has, they would tend to be more secure.

Who said anything about using FT? All of what I describe can be accomplished using MT.

A deadbolt can be bypassed, but a door with a deadbolt is more secure than one without.

A deadbolt doesn't require easily-obtained genetic material.

Are these passports compulsory, so everyone has to have one? Or do you just plan to change every nations passports to biometric?

The proposal seems to say every person must have such a passport, but this seems expensive and unnecessary.

No they are passports you only need a passport to leave or enter another country THEY ARE NOT ID CARDS...

Actually, they're the easiest to forge. I create one every once in awhile just for the fun of it.

The reason why they are so easy to forge is simple: Pretty much everything biometric passports use is public record. All I need is a quick photograph of your eye with the right bulb and ten minutes with something you've touched to have all of the information I need. The rest is pretty easy to get. I can also record your voice, steal blood samples, pick up shed hair and skin, and many other items necessary to impersonate you.

Basically put, the only way you are immune to this is if you shave off all of your hair, skin yourself alive, remove all of the blood from your veins, and walk around all day with your eyes closed and never saying a word. I suspect biometric security is soon to be replaced by something else.

1. To take a photograph of someones iris would be close to impossible you can NOT simply take a picture of that person and get their iris out of it you would need specialised machinery

2. The data on the BIOMETRIC PASSPORT could be "One way encrypted" so that it can not be reproduced exactley...

3. What are you doing making fake passports.???

4. Why would you broadcast it on the net the police could come get you now... :sniper:

1. To take a photograph of someones iris would be close to impossible you can NOT simply take a picture of that person and get their iris out of it you would need specialised machinery
Methhinks you mean 'retina'. Irises can be seen quite easily using the naked eye (no pun intended). Indeed, they are part of the naked eye.

Methhinks you mean 'retina'. Irises can be seen quite easily using the naked eye (no pun intended). Indeed, they are part of the naked eye.

Sorry my mistake the passports should have a RETINA record and not an Iris record... :headbang:

1. To take a photograph of someones iris would be close to impossible you can NOT simply take a picture of that person and get their iris out of it you would need specialised machinery

Not really. What you're about to hear is the same reason why it is the American military gets nervous when I'm near any of their bases.

All you need is a high-powered bulb that burns itself out in one shot to get all of the necessary light for revealing both the irises and the retina at the back. It takes a high-quality camera and a computer to get the information, but the technology exists.

2. The data on the BIOMETRIC PASSPORT could be "One way encrypted" so that it can not be reproduced exactley...

An added step of hacking a bunch of computers. Whooptie.

3. What are you doing making fake passports.???

Because there are a surprising number of people who will pay good money to have a passport of their fictional location of choice. I made a good killing during the LotR series, and every year brings me a new set of Star Wars fans looking for a good passport.

Now, for ICly: The same reason as everyone else. Spies.

4. Why would you broadcast it on the net the police could come get you now... :sniper:

Because the police already know I can do it. They also know the little tagmark I put in the passport that allows my work to be easily identified. Finally, I'm not making real passports due to the fact I don't want to risk leaving the U.S.

Okay, you're missing the biggest problem for forging a passport, or any other form of identification.

(1) A passport does not just exist on paper, contrary to what some may still think. There's always a master copy of the passport and its contents sitting in government records. Now, what happens if someone, let's say a border guard, wants to see if you actually exist and if your copy is real? He will probably have access to the records database (he won't be able to modify records, of course, but he'd be able to look them up). So he'll take a few minutes, plug in your number, and whoop de doo, you don't exist! There goes the passport, and you've been arrested. Anything beyond a cursory inspection will not work with just some expensive paper. Nevermind that if you've altered a real passport it still won't match up with central records, unless you somehow manage to convince government officials that you've gone through some major plastic surgery.

(2) Certain biometric data is already built into modern passports.

(3) Things like retinal scans aren't meant to work with human verification. They're meant to work with machines. That means your retina will be compared not only to what is on your passport, but also to, once again, some form of central records. A hand-held might just use the passport's own encoding, but high-level security probably will not.

This is not to say that biometric ID is fake proof, but it's much more difficult to forge than you make it out to be. Not to mention that it will give automated identification cameras a wider range of data to use if someone wants to find you. Further, most anti-forging methods are designed to intimidate people from attempting to forge a document.

Okay, you're missing the biggest problem for forging a passport, or any other form of identification.

And you're ignoring the obvious. Stop looking at the complicated attempts and start looking at the overly-obvious-so-simple-it's-cliche scenario.

(1) A passport does not just exist on paper, contrary to what some may still think. There's always a master copy of the passport and its contents sitting in government records. Now, what happens if someone, let's say a border guard, wants to see if you actually exist and if your copy is real? He will probably have access to the records database (he won't be able to modify records, of course, but he'd be able to look them up). So he'll take a few minutes, plug in your number, and whoop de doo, you don't exist! There goes the passport, and you've been arrested. Anything beyond a cursory inspection will not work with just some expensive paper. Nevermind that if you've altered a real passport it still won't match up with central records, unless you somehow manage to convince government officials that you've gone through some major plastic surgery.

Problem: Do your border guards have the time to check every passport against a central computer? Bigger problem: How does that prevent someone from stealing someone else's identity and disguising themselves?

(2) Certain biometric data is already built into modern passports.

And it's still easily obtainable.

(3) Things like retinal scans aren't meant to work with human verification. They're meant to work with machines. That means your retina will be compared not only to what is on your passport, but also to, once again, some form of central records. A hand-held might just use the passport's own encoding, but high-level security probably will not.

A retina is relatively easy to reproduce. You can use a wide variety of methods for getting around retinal scans, ranging from specialized contact lenses to going as far as making fake eyeballs.

This is not to say that biometric ID is fake proof, but it's much more difficult to forge than you make it out to be. Not to mention that it will give automated identification cameras a wider range of data to use if someone wants to find you. Further, most anti-forging methods are designed to intimidate people from attempting to forge a document.

And you still are missing it. The idea of getting around biometric security is to use it to your advantage. You can easily cover your fingertips with fake prints, wear contacts to disguise your retinas, and even go as far as to give the blood of the real person you are mimicing. Passports themselves are not that difficult to fake if you have a half-decent hacker and someone who knows how to mimic one or who to bribe to get real passports for alteration purposes.

The problem with biometric security isn't the antiforging safeguards. It's the fact that you don't need to deal with forging at all to work around the system.

[OoC] Now why have I suddenly started thinking about the film Gattaca??

While Krioval does have, and use, such technology, we feel that it would be unreasonably to compel less-advanced nations to conform to our level. Thus, Krioval would likely vote against this proposal. On the other hand, Krioval is interested in border security in general, and will monitor this discussion with interest.

~ Yuri Sokolev

What if the UN provided the technology and training related to it, to any nation that wishes to employ this sort of idea at its ports of entry?

Mikitivity is open to the general idea, and would be willing to assist peaceful UN members in getting this technology.

What if the UN provided the technology and training related to it, to any nation that wishes to employ this sort of idea at its ports of entry?

That would be perfectly acceptable as a solution to the technology issue. It's not beyond real-world modern technology, so the only people with issues are the Magic Tech and AT nations, though I honestly doubt they have enough voice to do anything about it.

All we need to address are the security issues of it.

Not only do I regard this as an unacceptable infringement of civil liberties, I also feel that the author has ignored the simple fact that many UN nations do not have the requisite financial and technological capabilities to implement such a scheme.

Mathieu Vergniaud
Deputy Speaker to the UN

Not only do I regard this as an unacceptable infringement of civil liberties, I also feel that the author has ignored the simple fact that many UN nations do not have the requisite financial and technological capabilities to implement such a scheme.

Mathieu Vergniaud
Deputy Speaker to the UN

What if the language were created to suggest, but not require? I think there is a middle ground here from the cost aspects.

As for the civil liberties / right of non-standardization, my government doesn't wish to discuss that point at present, as Mikitivity feels that we should chip away at the "easier" of the two points your government raised.

OOC: Today you can travel to Switzerland without anybody checking your passports, but when you return to the US, they want the passport. It seems to me that the US could deny citizens whom don't have fancy bar coded passports from entry, so the burden on entry to the US is *technologically speaking* on the country that wants the higher standards. Furthermore, if the US wanted to encourage travel to it, it could go as far as to create guidelines and then give grants (something the US does for other projects) to nations in need to build passports that it is ready to accept.

I'm not saying the present proposal is in a final form, but I am trying to encourage its author to keep hacking away! :)

Thank you for your support i have allready put this up for proposal in the UN and all i need is votes...
If you have the nesseceary endorsments to vote please do and support this proposal...