NationStates Jolt Archive

We, the people of the Empire of Mossess feel that to ensure that crime amongst the young is curtailed in all United Nation states as much as is legally possible without entering into the realms of execution so as to ensure that all the peoples of the United Nations can travel freely from state to state without fear of suffering from the Tierney of youth crime. It is with this goal in mind that we implore the members of the United Nations to impose Heavy fines on the parents of the wayward youths.

We feel that the size of the fine should equal the 10% the average price of a 3 bedroom Semi-detached house within a 5 mile radius of the offender’s house.

These strong and heavy fines will ensure that parents do there best to ensure there children are no involved in any forms of crime.

It also allows the government to collect large amounts of Taxes from those who flaunt the law.




:eek:

I am asking that you put forward to your elected representative to vote for this proposel as soon as possible. Otherwise you may wake up in a few days or months to find your house ransacked and some young one laughing at you, because WE ARE POWERLESS to STOP THEM!!!

ACT NOW, before IT IS TOO LATE!

Thank You for your time. :cool:

Here's the proposal text.


Category: International Security
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Mossess

Description: We, the people of the Empire of Mossess feel that to ensure that crime amongst the young is curtailed in all United nation states as much as is legally possible without entering into the realms of execution so as to ensure that all the peoples of the United Nations can travel freely from state to state without fear of suffering from the Tierney of youth crime. It is with this goal in mind that we implore the members of the United Nations to impose Heavy fines on the parents of the wayward youths.
We feel that the size of the fine should equal the 10% the average price of a 3 bedroom Semi-detached house within a 5 mile radius of the offender’s house.
These strong and heavy fines will ensure that parents do there best to ensure there children are no involved in any forms of crime.
It also allows the government to collect large amounts of Taxes from those who flaunt the law.


Approvals: 0

Status: Lacking Support (requires 148 more approvals)

Voting Ends: Mon Jun 20 2005

This proposal goes against resolution 26 (The Universal Bill of Rights) article 8 which states
Article 8 -- A human beings family members cannot be held accountable for the crimes of their relative.

This proposal goes against resolution 26 (The Universal Bill of Rights) article 8 which states

Good catch!

The Eternal Kawaii agrees with the sentiment of this proposal, since it is in accord with Our juvenial law code. We do not interpret Resolution #26, Article 8 as applying to the acts of minors. Minors, by definition under the laws of the Eternal Kawaii, cannot be held criminally liable for their acts because they have not yet developed the moral capacity to be responsible citizens. Under Our laws, only a responsible adult may be held liable for a crime, whether conducted by themselves or by a minor under their charge and care.

We should like to bring to peoples' attention UN Resolution #25, Article 3, Paragraph 1:
1. In all actions concerning minors, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the minor shall be a primary consideration.

We hold that the best interests of a minor lie in shielding them from impersonal Law so that they may best learn to become responsible adults from their best teachers, their parents. The State's only role here should be in protecting the public's right to be assured that these parents do an adequate job in raising their children.

without fear of suffering from the Tierney of youth crime.
Is that the Maura Tierney of youth crime? . . . . . the Gene Tierney of youth crime?

http://www.mauratierney.com/nr_m.jpg http://www.aristasia.co.uk/Gene%20Tierney.jpg

... or the Representative John Tierney (D - MA) of youth crime?

http://www.house.gov/tierney/images/bioyellbord.jpg

Just curious. I'd vote for it if it's Maura. She's a babe. (So's Gene, but she's dead now.)

Wow. This is smart. [/sarcasm]

"Ah, yes, Mr. and Mrs. Smith. You're probably wondering why I called you here today. It's about Timmy. Yes, ma'am, he's alright. It's just that, during lunch, his friends handed him a copy of the Necronomicon and Timmy decided to read it aloud, thinking it was a joke, which resulted in him accidentally summoning Great Cthulhu. Great Cthulhu promptly ate Timmy's friends and then went on a rampage, devouring four city blocks before he was finally banished back to R'lyeh. However, Timmy, having looked upon the visage of Cthulhu, promptly went temporarily insane and ran around school killing people. He managed to kill 523 of his classmates and school faculty before police were able to tazer and baton him into submission. Now, since you are Timmy's parents and since the UN resolution by Mossess requires us to fine the parents for crimes the children committed, we are hereby fining you $14,000,000,000 in damages to public property and loss of life. If you are unable to pay this, we will have to put you in jail for violating a court order. So, are you going to pay with cash, check, or credit card?"

I pity Timmy's parents.

Well, it serves Timmy's parents right for failing to teach him to Just Say No to blasphemous ancient tomes, even if all his friends are reading them.

and then there is this scenario....

14 year old on phone to his friend.

"Yeah, I hate my stupid parents. They never let me do anything I want to but thanks to this new law where the parents pay for youth crime while we get off scott free I can get back at them. I've decided to do a bit of shoplifting and make sure I get caught so they'll have a monster fine to pay. Yeah man, That'll teach them."

I think this proposal is not a good idea. How are the young going to learn right from wrong if they're sheilded from responsibility for their actions while parents, good and bad, are blamed for crimes they didn't commit and in most cases probably didn't know about.

I think this proposal is not a good idea. How are the young going to learn right from wrong if they're sheilded from responsibility for their actions while parents, good and bad, are blamed for crimes they didn't commit and in most cases probably didn't know about.

Why should anyone assume the legal system will be a better teacher than the child's own parents? This proposal does nothing more than encourage adults to do what they already should be expected to do--teach their children respect for the law.

What about the parents who do that to the best of their ability and the children decide different. Why should parents be punished becasue their kid decides to throw a temper tantrum?

Not all children are perfect little angels who'll do whatever their parents say. Some do rebel against what their parents teach them and go off the rails.

Not all children are perfect little angels who'll do whatever their parents say. Some do rebel against what their parents teach them and go off the rails.

And whose fault is that?

Why should anyone assume the legal system will be a better teacher than the child's own parents? This proposal does nothing more than encourage adults to do what they already should be expected to do--teach their children respect for the law.

Which would be nice if children were little machines you could easily program. But they're not. You have to deal with the fact that not all will be willing to obey.

And whose fault is that?

In many cases? Quite likely genetics, specifically the random recombination of genetic traits passed down through the family that results in specific personality traits.

In many cases? Quite likely genetics, specifically the random recombination of genetic traits passed down through the family that results in specific personality traits.

Genetics are no excuse for bad behavior. Such a plea, if entered in a courtroom in the Eternal Kawaii, would most likely land the defendent in an institution for the mentally handicapped.

I pity Timmy's parents.
I pity Timmy, as he gazed upon the visage of an elder god from Beyond the stars. Perhaps he can take solace in blessed nepenthe [/lovecraftwankery]

And whose fault is that?

Its the kids fault. He/she and he/she alone decided to break the law. Not the parents. Unless the parents knew about the crime in advance, and/or helped their kid cover it up afterward, and/or paticiapated in it, they are not responsible for their kids actions.

Good education and social welfare programs in a nation work to reduce crime a lot better than this totally unfair proposal ever could. We have both programs very well funded in Waterana and crime is totally unknown here.

Genetics are no excuse for bad behavior. Such a plea, if entered in a courtroom in the Eternal Kawaii, would most likely land the defendent in an institution for the mentally handicapped.

Unfortunately, with the increasing evidence that human behavior is nothing more than genetic sequences in action, that may not be viable. Besides, I wasn't offering that as an excuse for committing crimes. I was quickly destroying your attempt to shift blame to the parents for what they have no control over. A parent cannot decide a child's personality, nor can they decide how clever that child will be or what that child will do just to defy them. No matter how much you dislike it, in the end it is still the child who must be dealt with.

I pity Timmy, as he gazed upon the visage of an elder god from Beyond the stars. Perhaps he can take solace in blessed nepenthe [/lovecraftwankery]

I doubt it. Poor Timmy must live the rest of his short, miserable life knowing the horrors he has seen.

No matter how much you dislike it, in the end it is still the child who must be dealt with.

Actually, We agree with that statement. It's just that in the Eternal Kawaii, it's the parents who are expected to do the dealing.

Actually, We agree with that statement. It's just that in the Eternal Kawaii, it's the parents who are expected to do the dealing.

But, there are times when the parents can't manage to correct the child. They punish as much as they like, but anything short of torture and the child doesn't bother to let it deter them. Those are the ones that must be allowed to pay for their actions in a court of law.

But, there are times when the parents can't manage to correct the child. They punish as much as they like, but anything short of torture and the child doesn't bother to let it deter them. Those are the ones that must be allowed to pay for their actions in a court of law.

We are not unsympathetic to the problems of raising children. Our government has a very pro-family policy, after all. But ultimately it is the parents' responsibility. They made the decision to have the child; society can expect nothing less than their best efforts to make that child a productive citizen.

We are not unsympathetic to the problems of raising children. Our government has a very pro-family policy, after all. But ultimately it is the parents' responsibility. They made the decision to have the child; society can expect nothing less than their best efforts to make that child a productive citizen.

It is not always the parents decision to have children - contraception failing... but sometimes even the best efforts from the best people cannot be good enough. If a child wishes to disobey, a parent is not going to be able to control them. The exception to this is lacing ther food with some drugs which is sometimes the only option. Even then there are snags, poor families (where a majority of these sort of instances occur in) would not have enough money to pay for the drugs, why not instead of punishing them - help them out and give them some drugs to lace the childs food with?

We are not unsympathetic to the problems of raising children. Our government has a very pro-family policy, after all. But ultimately it is the parents' responsibility. They made the decision to have the child; society can expect nothing less than their best efforts to make that child a productive citizen.

But, in the end, it is society that must deal with the results. You have to find a way to balance these two problems. How much responsibility should parents have, and when should society take over if parents fail? Punishing failed parents often doesn't make them any better, as they do not know how to be better at it. And, in the end, there are still sometimes children who are simply beyond the experience of the parents to deal with. You see how complicated this gets?

Let's go with this, but extend it logically to its ultimate form. Governments should be punished, by invasion, for the crimes of its individual citizens. I mean, if the government were to be truly worth existence, it should be able to govern its population so that no crimes are committed by its citizens. After all, the government chooses to govern, so why shouldn't it pay the price for citizens' crimes by being forcibly subjugated?

Bad kids? We don't have juvenile detention.

We have juvenile military service. Works much better. Polar Bear Patrol for the truly misbehaving seems to work out nicely.

No, it's not nice to call them "bait". Accurate, yes, but not nice.

When a parent says "I have no control over my child, I'm not responsible for there actions" Then all is lost. It is no surprise that the child will do whatever it wants. Live without limits!

By effectively Forcing parents to take control it will reduce youth crime.

Is it not better that 1 set of parents are forced to live with the consequences of what their children have done, then the countless victims of that youths crime.

I also think that a good payment plan could be introduced, perhaps added onto a mortgage, or deduced from wages, or any welfare payments.

You missed the part about it's illegal, right?

You missed the part about it's illegal, right?

Hehe. Sometimes it flies right over their head, and sometimes it hits them and they still don't notice or care. :D

Just curious. I'd vote for it if it's Maura. She's a babe. (So's Gene, but she's dead now.)

Agreed. Although, if we could clone Gene...

Let's go with this, but extend it logically to its ultimate form. Governments should be punished, by invasion, for the crimes of its individual citizens. I mean, if the government were to be truly worth existence, it should be able to govern its population so that no crimes are committed by its citizens. After all, the government chooses to govern, so why shouldn't it pay the price for citizens' crimes by being forcibly subjugated?

Actually, this goes on already. On the international level, the logical parallel to holding a parent responsible for the crimes of their children (against their neighbors, obviously) would be holding a government responsible for any crimes its citizens commit against other nations, such as terrorism. What you're suggesting here is nothing more than the common-sense proposal that governments which harbor terrorists could be justifiably attacked by their neighbors for reasons of self-defense.

No, it's not nice to call them "bait". Accurate, yes, but not nice.

We are intrigued by your nation's youth service program, and wonder if Vastiva would be interested in cooperative efforts with The Eternal Kawaii's "Shirt Ninja" corps? We feel both of our countries could learn from each other's programs here.

When a parent says "I have no control over my child, I'm not responsible for there actions" Then all is lost. It is no surprise that the child will do whatever it wants. Live without limits!

And then end up in prison. Unless they live on a deserted island in the middle of nowhere, of course. The objective of parents is to prepare their children for dealing with society. If the children honestly believe the parents have nothing to teach them, let the children have a taste of actual society.

By effectively Forcing parents to take control it will reduce youth crime.

I have yet to see any proof that it actually does that, real-world or not.

Is it not better that 1 set of parents are forced to live with the consequences of what their children have done, then the countless victims of that youths crime.

It would be nice if that were the actual results. Instead, both the victims and the parents must live with the results. All that happens is more victims.

I also think that a good payment plan could be introduced, perhaps added onto a mortgage, or deduced from wages, or any welfare payments.

Okay, how the hell is anyone going to pay for the scenario I presented? Most corporations can't afford that much money. Hell, most nations can't afford that price tag. Now do you see how it can be a bad idea?

Actually, this goes on already. On the international level, the logical parallel to holding a parent responsible for the crimes of their children (against their neighbors, obviously) would be holding a government responsible for any crimes its citizens commit against other nations, such as terrorism. What you're suggesting here is nothing more than the common-sense proposal that governments which harbor terrorists could be justifiably attacked by their neighbors for reasons of self-defense.

Not really. My scenario deals with nations that had nothing to do with a given crime - they didn't know that Person X was planning a terrorist act, and as such, I would consider that nation to be innocent of wrongdoing.

Similarly, a parent who has done a decent job of raising a child shouldn't shoulder the burden of "paying for it" because the kid had a moment of rebellion (or suffered some trauma that went undetected). There are plenty of families in which children play the "saint" for their parents and then act out when their parents aren't right there. Even in cases where the children are punished by their parents for their acts, it may not be enough, in which case the criminal justice system (if the act rises to that level) intervenes to isolate the misbehaving children from society for a bit. The best parents in the world can have a "bad kid" from time to time.

Greetings.

We of Roathin note that, parental guidance or not, the state and the members of the state will eventually suffer the consequences of having badly-nurtured children. It is therefore everyone's civic responsibility to provide assistance in the process of child-rearing. However:

1. Every child is different, in a practical sense. Hence the methods which work on one child may have different effects on another.

2. Most methods have a wide range of outcomes, depending on environmental and biological factors.

Hence there are only two uncomfortable options for 'perfect' child-rearing:

1. Make all the children as similar as possible. As they are not adults, take away their freedom of choice whenever possible. Create drones.

2. Use groupthink. All adults share all children. Create a hivemind.

Conclusion:

We conclude that we cannot expect to rear perfect children, and that parents do not have the resources on their own to do so. However, the state can support endeavours to instill positive values and reward positive outcomes - as well as punish negative behaviours. Parents should be allowed to absorb the penalties for minors if they feel it is their duty. The government should provide assistance where possible, which would be their side of the contract.

We of Roathin believe that some children need greater state assistance. However, some parents believe it is their right to rear children badly. Fortunately, we have access to psychic redaction, and we reward the better redactors commensurately.

We are intrigued by your nation's youth service program, and wonder if Vastiva would be interested in cooperative efforts with The Eternal Kawaii's "Shirt Ninja" corps? We feel both of our countries could learn from each other's programs here.

Shirt Ninjas? Do tell me more.

Shirt Ninjas? Do tell me more.

It was Our government's response to the youth crime problem a while back. We opened a series of martial arts acadamies for youth, then conscripted the teenagers in them into the military as special forces troops. Quite a popular program, really.