NationStates Jolt Archive

Re: Human Rights

DEFINING reproductive human cloning as the use of human embryos to create a new human being,

REMINDING that each failed attempt of cloning a human results in the death of what could have been a functional human being,

ALARMED by the continued legality of human cloning in many UN member nations,

ACKNOWLEDGING the difference between embryonic cloning and therapeutic cloning, which involves the use of umbilical or marrow cells and not embryos,

RECOGNIZING the medical benfits of therapeutic cloning,

CONDEMNING reproductive cloning,

1. CALLS UPON all UN member states to make all forms of human reproductive cloning, as described above, illegal and punishable by law;

2. CREATES an international regulatory body to monitor therapeutic cloning;

3. DECIDES to remain actively seized of the matter.



Please approve this (my first ever!) proposal, as it an important, although unaddressed issue. Thanks.

-UzbekSol

P.S. Feedback appreciated.

You DO know that clones currently have full rights in the UN?

The rest of it - meh. No support because we find no real reasoning here - embryos are to humans what paperclips are to UN Impact Reports.

not quite i think that human cloning should be banned because of the reproduction rates would be down all we would need to do is go and get some embryos and clone well clones aren't exactly humans or real they're just some form of our embryo.

Ya know, if we exterminate samples of humanity's genetic material, we can't clone humans.

not quite i think that human cloning should be banned because of the reproduction rates would be down all we would need to do is go and get some embryos and clone well clones aren't exactly humans or real they're just some form of our embryo.

So something made from your genetic material isn't human. That would include babies? :rolleyes:

not quite i think that human cloning should be banned because of the reproduction rates would be down all we would need to do is go and get some embryos and clone well clones aren't exactly humans or real they're just some form of our embryo.

Clones are as human as the original genetic source. If you cloned yourself, the clone resultant would be a seperate, and individual, human, just like you.

Ridiculous!!!! Preposterous!! Outrageous!!!

This can not happen!! And this will force the removal of several dozen nations from the UN, mine included. Darkumbria creates its population via this method. Yes, pregnancy is allowed, but not pushed. It is easier if the state takes care of the children to begin with, and we can eliminate disease, raise intelligence, and productivity. By taking the best DNA from current citizens, Darkumbrian society ensures its survival.

I urge the delegation to rethink this most heinus proposal. If this passes I will be accusing the UN of murder. Currently, in our vaults, Darkumbria has the DNA of all the best scientists, military leaders, teachers, workers, soldiers, and governmental leaders. You would kill off an entire generation.

"Fine by me. We have no interest in reproducing humans anyway. There's already too many of them if you ask me. They breed like rabbits..."

Bonfaaz Burntfur

I wrote a draft proposal concerning treatment of genomes some time back which might be useful...let me dig it up....

The low success rate of current cloning techniques is not sufficient to justify a ban. Better to insist simply that any scientists wishing to clone satisfy other experts that their method has a relatively low probability of resulting in the infliction of serious medical problems upon the clone after a certain age (I'm not talking about the deaths of 2 week old embryos here, I mean serious problems that affect the child when it's a fully-formed human capable of suffering). Methods might be developed to this stage using animals. Plus the donor of the DNA would have to give permission.

Other than the issues of the consent of the 'parent' and the potential for suffering on the part of the clone, both of which can be dealt with without an outright ban, I am not convinced by any of the arguments to ban cloning.

Yes, yes, I'm well aware of the irony and apparent contradiction of a delegate from a Roman Catholic nation saying this, but:


REMINDING that each failed attempt of cloning a human results in the death of what could have been a functional human being,


Since you're talking about potentials here, what about menstruation? Every time a human female menstruates, it results in the "death" of what could have been a functional human being. Same thing with a 14 year old boy's nocturnal emissions. So, you wanna outlaw periods and wet dreams while you're at it?

So, you wanna outlaw periods and wet dreams while you're at it?
Don't forget masturbation.

Yes, yes, I'm well aware of the irony and apparent contradiction of a delegate from a Roman Catholic nation saying this, but:



Since you're talking about potentials here, what about menstruation? Every time a human female menstruates, it results in the "death" of what could have been a functional human being. Same thing with a 14 year old boy's nocturnal emissions. So, you wanna outlaw periods and wet dreams while you're at it?

Not to mention a miscarriage results in the death of "what could have been a functional human being".

Birht, itself, has the potential of causing "death". None of this, however, is an issue to force outlawing of cloning.

Don't forget masturbation.
We're Catholic, we don't masturbate. ;)

This is not an issue that transcends national boundaries.

(God, I love that argument! DLE hasn't forbidden it, has s/he?)

We're Catholic, we don't masturbate. ;)
Of course you don't, after all.

"Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is good.":D

I love that song :p

Re: Human Rights

DEFINING reproductive human cloning as the use of human embryos to create a new human being,

REMINDING that each failed attempt of cloning a human results in the death of what could have been a functional human being,

ALARMED by the continued legality of human cloning in many UN member nations,

ACKNOWLEDGING the difference between embryonic cloning and therapeutic cloning, which involves the use of umbilical or marrow cells and not embryos,

RECOGNIZING the medical benfits of therapeutic cloning,

CONDEMNING reproductive cloning,

1. CALLS UPON all UN member states to make all forms of human reproductive cloning, as described above, illegal and punishable by law;

2. CREATES an international regulatory body to monitor therapeutic cloning;

3. DECIDES to remain actively seized of the matter.



Please approve this (my first ever!) proposal, as it an important, although unaddressed issue. Thanks.

-UzbekSol

P.S. Feedback appreciated.

Your proposal is totaly horindus, Im against it!

Since you're talking about potentials here, what about menstruation? Every time a human female menstruates, it results in the "death" of what could have been a functional human being. Same thing with a 14 year old boy's nocturnal emissions. So, you wanna outlaw periods and wet dreams while you're at it?

That is a completely different topic. Once an ovum becomes fertilized and forms a zygote, it is then a seperate being. Sperm and eggs on their own are not living beings, they are merely organic particles that the human body passes up like hair, nails or dead skin cells. They have no potential on their own to create life unless they are brought together in the female body.

Your proposal is totaly horindus, Im against it!

I don't know the meaning of that word, as it's not in the dictionary, but I assume you are trying to communicate to me that it is horrendous, or as the French say, "affreuxeuse". The sentence would now read, "Your proposal is totally horrendous; I'm against it!". If this is the case, and please correct me if I'm wrong, then I have to say that you have the right to your own opinion, even if it disagrees with my own.

Cheers,
-UzbekSol

If Two People Want to have a child, but can't, Then they should be entitled to Have a child, but they want to keep the bloodline! So In my opinion the only answer is cloning.. Also If we clone cows it could put an end to world hunger and also Help nurture people with healthier milk!! And How do we do this? Clone the best cows! If farmer Brown has a prized cow, Why not have 2?

sorry wrong Forum!! :eek:

Wait never mind :headbang: , Anyway Your sperm dies at the end of the day anyway!!

That is a completely different topic. Once an ovum becomes fertilized and forms a zygote, it is then a seperate being. Sperm and eggs on their own are not living beings, they are merely organic particles that the human body passes up like hair, nails or dead skin cells. They have no potential on their own to create life unless they are brought together in the female body.
Noooooo... it is the same topic. A sperm and an ovum both have the potential to create life as does a zyogte, or any living cell. Your model doesn't work because you want to draw finite lines at when life is present and when it is not. So a blastula is life, but a skin cell undergoing mitosis isn't? Life is not absent one second and present the next. Its a gradual process. One could even argue, as Vastiva often does, that any fetus not viable outside the womb is not yet "alive".

Isate disagrees fully with this proposal. We would vote against it. We are a liberal state and see this as hindering our scientific advancements. A ban on reproductive human cloning should be the decision of the individual states if they so wish; it should not be forced on all members. Isate does not wish for this proposal to pass.

If Two People Want to have a child, but can't, Then they should be entitled to Have a child, but they want to keep the bloodline! So In my opinion the only answer is cloning.. Also If we clone cows it could put an end to world hunger and also Help nurture people with healthier milk!! And How do we do this? Clone the best cows! If farmer Brown has a prized cow, Why not have 2?

There are other options aside from cloning. Surrogate mother being one of them. As for animals, notice that they are not even in the resolution ("ban on human reproductive cloning"). Here's a tidbit of information - by selectively breeding and re-pollinating plants, we have been inadvertently cloning plants for millenia in order to get the best crops. Humans are a different issue however, as there are moral and social implications to consider.

Noooooo... it is the same topic. A sperm and an ovum both have the potential to create life as does a zyogte, or any living cell. Your model doesn't work because you want to draw finite lines at when life is present and when it is not. So a blastula is life, but a skin cell undergoing mitosis isn't? Life is not absent one second and present the next. Its a gradual process. One could even argue, as Vastiva often does, that any fetus not viable outside the womb is not yet "alive".

If a zygote were removed from the womb and placed in a test tube, it could theoretically survive and grow into an individual, under the proper conditions. A skin cell placed in a test tube would not be able to survive, or be able to produce a new human being as it needs the rest of the body for nutrients. Furthermore, the zygote has more than just the potential for life - as the "potential" factor is only affected by outside conditions, such as disease, syndromes and miscarrage. Any zygote with all the proper genetic information would be able to form a human being if it were not for the outside factors. A sperm or ovum or skin cell on its own could not. The skin cell undergoing mitosis is already part of a human being - which was once a zygote itself - and it is not creating new life, but rather adding to that which already is there. That is where the definition between life and a human organic substance is drawn.

this defines what human is which is outrages cinsidering its largely a religous issue and differs among people.

hey i like it cause i can make a great clone army to take over the univers and have a grand republic under me :) and if you stand in my i mean the republics way we will send are clone troops after you :mp5: :gundge: :sniper: so yay clones

If a zygote were removed from the womb and placed in a test tube, it could theoretically survive and grow into an individual, under the proper conditions. A skin cell placed in a test tube would not be able to survive, or be able to produce a new human being as it needs the rest of the body for nutrients. Furthermore, the zygote has more than just the potential for life - as the "potential" factor is only affected by outside conditions, such as disease, syndromes and miscarrage. Any zygote with all the proper genetic information would be able to form a human being if it were not for the outside factors. A sperm or ovum or skin cell on its own could not. The skin cell undergoing mitosis is already part of a human being - which was once a zygote itself - and it is not creating new life, but rather adding to that which already is there. That is where the definition between life and a human organic substance is drawn.

OOC:

Technically, if one was sufficiently invested in energy to do so, one could "turn back the clock" developmentally speaking, causing a skin cell to become a totipotent stem cell - capable of total differentiation and replication. In short, it is possible to make any living cell into a copy of the being from whom it was extracted, though there are problems inherent in doing so. Still, this means that any cell is capable of reproducing life.

IC:

Krioval is perfectly capable of altering the differentiation patterns of various cell types, including reversing cell commitment to allow for the creation of stem cells with multiple potentials. Turning skin cells into neurons is old news for us, and while we haven't yet got around to making babies from people's skin, it's more a matter of lacking the desire, rather than the knowledge, necessary to do so. We request that nations with inferior biotechnology please refrain from spouting off on matters of biological science, especially in the presence of those of us who already know better.

~ Yuri Sokolev

At this current time, Combiland has chosen not to allow the cloning of embryos. The world's population is none of our concern because no on from foreign territories is allowed to enter Combiland, but we are concerned about our population. As if we don't have enough people in our country already. Why would we want cloning. No, Combiland has chosen not to allow cloning in our country but because we are so isolated, we could care less what other countries do with their laws. The Imperial Senate and myself regret to inform you that this is a law that should be taken into consideration by every country individualy. As long as their decisions don't effect the happiness of every Combi, we will allow every country to handle this on its own.

I agree that cloning should be banned. Ever heard of sanctity of human life?

I agree that cloning should be banned. Ever heard of sanctity of human life?

Human life hasn't had sanctity in over ten thousand years. I doubt this will change that.

Human life hasn't had sanctity in over ten thousand years. I doubt this will change that.

What a cynic you are. Have you really lost all hope in humanity? "Evil reigns when good people do nothing."

I would just like to say that the success rate of a cloning of mammals is as low as 0.01% and as high as 3%. That means that, at the most, 3 of every 100 cloning efforts don't work. That’s 97 embryos that could have been a human life going down the drain. You are murdering 97 embryos just so you can have a Master Race. That in essence is what you are trying to create.

Uzbekistan and Solomon']What a cynic you are. Have you really lost all hope in humanity? "Evil reigns when good people do nothing."

There is no evil, there is no good.

There is only stupidity and wisdom. And be very, very careful with your value judgements, those who created the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust both believed they were doing "good".

There is no evil, there is no good.

There is only stupidity and wisdom. And be very, very careful with your value judgements, those who created the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust both believed they were doing "good".

The Spanish Inquisition and Holocaust were both started with the intent of "eradicating" a "problem". Banning human reproductive cloning cannot be compared to either of these, because it is not as of yet developed enough to have repurcussions on the scale of the aforementioned instances.

Uzbekistan and Solomon']What a cynic you are. Have you really lost all hope in humanity? "Evil reigns when good people do nothing."

Not lost all hope yet. After all, my nation is made of humans and has hope for itself. The reason why human life is not sanctified is that humans destroy it so easily.

The Spanish Inquisition and Holocaust were both started with the intent of "eradicating" a "problem". Banning human reproductive cloning cannot be compared to either of these, because it is not as of yet developed enough to have repurcussions on the scale of the aforementioned instances.

Except for those nations that use it as their main form of reproduction, of course. I prefer natural breeding myself, but to each his own.

Free advice: Never say anything is not developed enough when it comes to this UN. Somewhere, someone has developed it to its most advanced point.

Analgia, via its Department of International Affairs, and having nothing more pressing at this moment, weighs in...

There are about 30,000,000 Analgians. Maybe, just maybe, 2 are clones. They might know who they are...they might not.

If you are Homo Sapiens, and you want to make another Homo Sapiens, go ahead. You have the right to reproduce. (It's not in our Constitution, but it came up at one of our bi-weekly "Pulse-O-The-People" sessions, so it's in the minutes.)

Embryonic cloning is pointless. The purpose of cloning is creation of someone new. Assuming you have a viable embryo, you're already well on the way to have that new person. If you don't have a viable embryo, you probably don't have anything worth cloning. If you don't like the genetic makeup of that embryo and want to substitute something else, you're probably too late -- fiddling with the DNA of a single egg, or maybe even a blastocyte (for the sheer challenge of it all) -- is a great deal easier.

Uzbekistan and Solomon']The Spanish Inquisition and Holocaust were both started with the intent of "eradicating" a "problem". Banning human reproductive cloning cannot be compared to either of these, because it is not as of yet developed enough to have repurcussions on the scale of the aforementioned instances.

So you're just "eradicating" a "problem", then? :rolleyes: And you know it is not yet developed enough why?

Assumptions are dangerous here, friend - this isn't the RL UN. This UN has flippers.

HAH! the great dominator demands that cloning, not only be allowed, but Mandatory.

At least, that's the way it is, when you reside on a moving, mechanical island...mwahahahah....

I agree that cloning should be banned. Ever heard of sanctity of human life?

And precisely how does cloning humans violate this supposed "sanctity"? You may as well say that having children if you know you family has a strong tendency to produce identical twins violates the sanctity of human life.

A clone is NOT the same person as its parent. It simply has the same genes. In fact, clones are likely to be much less similar to their parents then identical twins are to each other, because the environmental conditions of identical twins' development are very similar, but are much less so for clones compared to their parents. Genes don't fully define a person, and certainly don't fully define one's thoughts and feelings.

A clone is NOT the same person as its parent. It simply has the same genes. In fact, clones are likely to be much less similar to their parents then identical twins are to each other, because the environmental conditions of identical twins' development are very similar, but are much less so for clones compared to their parents. Genes don't fully define a person, and certainly don't fully define one's thoughts and feelings.

So, you would prefer to be told that you are a clone rather than a twin? How... unsettling. Twins are a natural occurence at bare minimum; clones are produced through the intervention of human beings.

Free advice: Never say anything is not developed enough when it comes to this UN. Somewhere, someone has developed it to its most advanced point.

Then why bother debating anything at all!? If anyone, anywhere can simply RP something into their country, that can supercede any statement made.

Uzbekistan and Solomon']Then why bother debating anything at all!? If anyone, anywhere can simply RP something into their country, that can supercede any statement made.

Ego. Plus, I don't really give a damn about certain minorities in the UN. My nation has to focus on itself first.

DemonLordEnigma doesn't actually debate anything. He just argues against proposals. If he can't find anything wrong with it, he just makes stuff up. It's best to just ignore him.

DemonLordEnigma doesn't actually debate anything. He just argues against proposals. If he can't find anything wrong with it, he just makes stuff up. It's best to just ignore him.

That's interesting, considering I managed to find something wrong with every one of your proposals (one of which was outright illegal and even ruled so by a mod).

Try backing that statement up with evidence. Everyone on here knows fully well my nation's technology level, the power of the ships I have (ever bother to check those links in my signature sometime?), and that I am willing to argue from that viewpoint. Plus, you can actually bother looking around and be surprised how much stuff I don't make up about what nations are made of.

DemonLordEngima's behavior is proof enough, and he will be ignored by the nation of Brians Test under all circumstances from this point forward.

Congrats. You just proved you don't have any evidence, or even any clue how to argue for that matter. If you did, you would realize the common-sense item that attitude does not equate correctness. Instead, all you can do is pop into a topic and actively attack a player, flamebait, and troll rather than dealing with that person's arguements. Try doing us all a favor and not wasting anyone's time by bothering to pull that again.

What does this have to do with human reproductive cloning!?

Congrats. You just proved you don't have any evidence, or even any clue how to argue for that matter.
Knock off the flamebaiting, DLE. You've got multiple soft warnings and at least one Official Warning for personal attacks. Enough, already.
DemonLordEngima's behavior is proof enough, and he will be ignored by the nation of Brians Test under all circumstances from this point forward.
Can the pointed ignores, Brians Test. If you're going to use the Jolt ignore function, do so silently.

Enough with the topic hijacking, while we're at it. Just cut it out, all of you.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

I'm quite for the cloning of humans. As was said much earlier, you could harvest stem cells from the embryos (though that is also possible to do from umbilical cords, albiet on a much smaller scaler.)

It also allows for the creation of the perfect soldier (but that might not be a perk, depending on your viewpoint.) :mp5:

Oh, and it's just cool.

Oh, and it's just cool.

That's the best argument I've heard all week. I bet you wouldn't think it was so cool if you were exactly like everyone else in your newly formed social caste, a clone. And only your superiors were given the right, now a "privelege", of genetic diversity.

Uzbekistan and Solomon']I bet you wouldn't think it was so cool if you were exactly like everyone else in your newly formed social caste, a clone. And only your superiors were given the right, now a "privelege", of genetic diversity.
Ummm.... has someone been watching too much Episode III and Gattaca? Who says that clones all have to be in the same social class? Why does your genetic make-up automatically determine your societal level?

Ummm.... has someone been watching too much Episode III and Gattaca? Who says that clones all have to be in the same social class? Why does your genetic make-up automatically determine your societal level?

OOC: Gattaca is such a cool movie

IC: Your genetic make-up should never determine your social class. For example, somebody who has the gene that causes Parkinsons should not be forced down below someone who doesn't but i also think that this is getting slightly off topic (not that i am complaining).

What hasnt been gone into in any great detail is the process of combining various genetics and effectively cloning multiple people into one person using cloning techniques. This person would be his/her own person and it would be like having lots and lots of parents and mixing their genes to make your own. Very similar to having a baby

I have one important question: Is any of this really that necessary? Is it really necessary to ban reproductive human cloning?

Pardon me, but isn't this resolution calling for a ban on right-bearing citizens? The UN has already resolved that clones share the same rights as non-cloned people (the Biorights Declaration, I believe).
As such, surely it would be illegal to outlaw one form of humanity?

You know, this proposal hasn't even been up for approval in something like a week. Now, this is all kind of a dead debate.

Ummm.... has someone been watching too much Episode III and Gattaca? Who says that clones all have to be in the same social class? Why does your genetic make-up automatically determine your societal level?

I haven't seen either actually. And it was a hypothetical, seeing that humans tend to like to class similar objects in the same category.