NationStates Jolt Archive

:sniper:
Greeting Fellow Members,
I would be interested in seeing your opinions on a resolution that allowed countries to ban fascist organizations, or one denouncing fascism

I would advise you to read the rules because this is not allowed.

I would advise you to read the rules because this is not allowed.

Which part of the rules makes it illegal to propose a resolution that would "denounce" fascism or make it legal for member states to ban fascists?

It is a horribly ironic idea, but it's not as though he's proposing to outright ban fascism (which would be very illegal and even more ironic).

Ideological Bans

Okay, so you hate capitalism. That's nice, but you can't ban it. Just like you can't ban communism, socialism, democracy, dictatorships, conservatives, liberals, christians, atheist, or any other political, religous, or economic ideology. While it should go without saying, this is up to the Game Moderator's descretion. You may consider the banning of slavery an oppression of your "economic ideology", we do not.

Ideological Bans

Okay, so you hate capitalism. That's nice, but you can't ban it. Just like you can't ban communism, socialism, democracy, dictatorships, conservatives, liberals, christians, atheist, or any other political, religous, or economic ideology. While it should go without saying, this is up to the Game Moderator's descretion. You may consider the banning of slavery an oppression of your "economic ideology", we do not.

I know what the rule is, but I'm not seeing how it applies here. He's not trying to ban fascism, only denounce it or make it legal for members to ban fascist groups in their own nations.

You're going to have to find something else to make it illegal.

How about "waste of the UN's time"? :rolleyes:

I concur with the delegate from Vastiva. First, there are likely very civilized and enlightened fascist states in existence somewhere in the NS universe, and there are also very likely several corrupt and barbaric democracies. Condemning a particular economic or political ideology/system is idiotic - what should be targeted are the abuses of any system of government or economy.

And really, denunciations are truly a waste of my and my colleagues' time, not to mention that their expense nowhere near justifies their total lack of impact.

Ambassador Yuri Sokolev
Armed Republic of Krioval

Quite right Krioval.

Freedom doesn't just mean freedom for people you agree with. It means freedom for everyone, no matter how much you might despise them. As such, _Myopia_ will oppose any resolution of this sort, as it is a gross affront to freedoms of expression, conscience and association.

Freedom doesn't just mean freedom for people you agree with. It means freedom for everyone, no matter how much you might despise them. As such, _Myopia_ will oppose any resolution of this sort, as it is a gross affront to freedoms of expression, conscience and association.

Fascism is quite different from many other ideologies in that it does not work democractically. It is a movement in which people are brainwashed into opressing others through physical violence. Fascism cannot be voted out and once fascist ideas take hold in an area they can become no-go areas for people of different races and religions. The people of the Republic of Blair Haters see no reason why physical violence against people of different race should be tolerated in the name of free speach. Ignoring the channels of democracy.

This is why we would not support the banning of racist groups who can be voted out of regions but would support the banning of fascist groups who would seek to oppress others in a totally undemocratic fashion undermining our democratic dictatorship of the multicultural proletariat in our country.

And really, denunciations are truly a waste of my and my colleagues' time, not to mention that their expense nowhere near justifies their total lack of impact.
Well stated Krioval. I don't want to see the NSUN embark upon a path of passing "feel good" legislation which condemns this or deplores that without actually doing anything. These things do cost money to implement and if Yeldas economy is going to take a hit we would at least like to have something to show for it.

FASCISM IS NOT A RACIST IDEOLOGY.

If you ban it, you would be just as bad as those who seek to eradicate free speech.

The people of the Republic of Blair Haters see no reason why physical violence against people of different race should be tolerated in the name of free speach. Ignoring the channels of democracy.

You're assuming every nation in the UN is a democracy. You're also assuming that every fascist state is violent against minorities of it's citizens. Kriovol is absolutely correct- they're are probably dozens of wonderful, utopian fascist states out there, and we already know that democratic nations can be shitty too.

I smell a flame war :mp5:

http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/flame.gif

OOC:
Words of wisdom which should be kept in mind when dealing with this issue.

"He who fights monsters must take care he does not become the monster... When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you." ~ Nietzsche

"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" ~ Voltaire

Fascism is quite different from many other ideologies in that it does not work democractically.

Consider a society in which 55% of the adult population are racist thugs who wish to institute a repressive government that would enslave the minorities that make up about 20% of the population. As someone who appears to oppose far-right, racist regimes, wouldn't you say a dictatorship that protected the minorities and prevented the racist majority getting their way would be preferable to a democratic tyranny of the majority?

In my view, at least, not being democratic is not in and of itself an innately bad thing.

It is a movement in which people are brainwashed into opressing others through physical violence. Fascism cannot be voted out and once fascist ideas take hold in an area they can become no-go areas for people of different races and religions. The people of the Republic of Blair Haters see no reason why physical violence against people of different race should be tolerated in the name of free speach.

We're not even talking about tolerating physical violence. All that I'm saying is that action and opinion are not the same, and once you start restricting opinions, and the rights of people to gather together and promote said opinions, you lose the moral high ground.

This is why we would not support the banning of racist groups who can be voted out of regions but would support the banning of fascist groups who would seek to oppress others in a totally undemocratic fashion undermining our democratic dictatorship of the multicultural proletariat in our country.

Of course, I'd be fine with attempts to stop fascist groups carrying out coups (though UN legislation is pretty pointless in this area) but I cannot support attempts to ban organisations of people with particular political views. And if we're talking about political parties - claiming to have a democracy then banning certain parties because you don't like them is nothing short of gross hypocrisy.

OOC: That Voltaire quote sums up perfectly my opinions on this issue.

I feel that that many of the people here totally misundertanding the nature of fascism and are confusing it with racism. I hate racism bitterly but i would not argue for a ban of racist groups. They can stand for election, they can fail and in this senario Myopia describes in which 55% of voting people are racist then they can even elect a racist party.

What I would say however, is that parties which argue for violence against certain groups should not have the right to operate outside the law using physical violence nor should they be able to convey such ideas which take advantage on the poor education of the most unfortunate citizens.

Had such action had it been initiated against the fascist Nazi party in 30s Germany, before the party started the extermination of a whole people, would have prevented a massive war and horrible genocide.

You may not take the fascist threat seriously now and feel that the fascist movement will never take hold, but I say nip it in the bud and smash the ugly head of fascism before it emerges as an unstoppable beast.

You may not take the fascist threat seriously now and feel that the fascist movement will never take hold, but I say nip it in the bud and smash the ugly head of fascism before it emerges as an unstoppable beast.

And somehow your attitude is the preferable one? "Smash the ugly head" of a sociopolitical group? Goodness.

The term fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that in various combinations:

* exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual
* uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition
* engages in severe economic and social regimentation
* engages in corporatism
* implements totalitarianism


There's nothing wrong with promoting your nation or your people as greater than the individual, misguided as we may believe it to be.

Propaganda and censorship are not illegal. Violence against political opposition should of course be illegal, but anyone can do this, not just fascists.

Fatus Maximus engages in severe economic regimentation. So do several members of the UN.

Coporatism, the practice of giving legislative power to corporations, is not inherently wrong. Corporations may abuse this power, but of itself it is not wrong.

Half the nations in the NSUN are totalitarian regimes.

The facts are, fascism itself isn't the problem. Fascism is like communism in this sense. Communism failed in RL because the system was abused by those in power. In NS, however, a nation really COULD be run by democratically elected people who have the best interests of the country at heart and are in charge of the economy. In NS, and even in real life, just because a nation is fascist does not necessarily mean they are bloodthirsty maniacs desirous of slaughtering anyone who does not support them.

I feel that that many of the people here totally misundertanding the nature of fascism and are confusing it with racism. I hate racism bitterly but i would not argue for a ban of racist groups. They can stand for election, they can fail and in this senario Myopia describes in which 55% of voting people are racist then they can even elect a racist party.

I'm not confusing it with racism - that example of racists was a separate one to demonstrate that being undemocratic isn't necessarily, in and of itself, bad.

should not have the right to operate outside the law using physical violence

So institute laws against physical violence.

nor should they be able to convey such ideas which take advantage on the poor education of the most unfortunate citizens.

So educate them properly. That's a failing of your government in its duty to provide a good education. We're not going to lay down laws suppressing ideas just because we don't like those ideas.

Had such action had it been initiated against the fascist Nazi party in 30s Germany, before the party started the extermination of a whole people, would have prevented a massive war and horrible genocide.

What evidence do you have that pushing an ideology underground necessarily weakens it? The tsarist regime in pre-1917 Russia ruthlessly suppressed opposition groups and exiled or killed members of the groups, and yet the Marxist-Leninists still managed to acquire power. What makes you think the Weimar government would have been any more able to stop Nazism?