NationStates Jolt Archive

Greetings UN Members and Delegates.
Recently the UN Strangers Bar Thread was removed as a Sticky Thread. We are Opposed to this Measure and would like to Petition the Moderators to right this.

We request that the members show their support for Re-stickying the Thread by adding their signitures to this Petition.

Thank you for your time,

The Venerable Libertarians.

NAY.

Unstickied, its managed to show up every day among the top ten subjects when I come to the UN. No reason to resticky it.

I agree with Vastiva. Sorry, V-L.

Just because it is a regularly used thread is no defence against re-stickying the Strangers Bar. This is more about it just being the right thing to do.

Unstickying the bar was an act of the utmost boringness and moderators ought to feel morally obliged to resticky a thread loved by many forthwith. In fact there should be a level of ashamedness that this hasn't been done already.

The Honourable Member of Bahgum is correct.
I am of the View that the Bar was Un-stickied because a certain Inanity exists within its thread and by its nature is not Serious enough for those whom would prefer to see it pass to the Archives.
J'accuse!
Also the Strangers Bar thread is by far the Largest in the NS only surpassed by the Spam threads on jolt for the amount of posts within.
The Reason it has Kept going is mainly due to the devotees of its Ennish shandies.

I thank Vastiva and Texan Hotrodders for their Opinion. However, consider your nations glassed, DLE Style. :D

Greetings.

We of Roathin re-stickied it with dolphin entrails, but Bahgum's mothers-in-law cleaned up the stickiness and so the Bar is left to flow freely. Members of the Bar are entitled to legislate however they want to, anyway.

I agree, it is NOT regularly in the top ten when I come. And I just realized that the person who proposed this is from the nation of Vernerable Libertarians, and not Vernerable Librarians as I have believed for a few months now. My mind is melted.

Survival of the fittest.

If the thread is popular enough it will remain on the first page.

I have *never* seen it bumped from the first page.

There is therefore no need for it to be stickied.

Stickies should be reserved for informative / reference threads to which people do not reply.

As one who frequently has occasion to view the carpet of the Strangers' Bar in intimate close-up, I am of the opinion that it is sticky enough already.

However, I would not like to see this comment taken as a reflection on Neville's housekeeping. Or Violet Bracket's, either.

Yours (currently) soberly,
Dicey Reilly,
Co-President, Ardchoille.

YAY

The UN Strangers Bar IS an informative/reference thread. It helps ease new members into the forums here and get to know one another.

Even if that were true (which it is not) it is not "an informative / reference thread to which people do not reply". Take the definition in full. A thread telling you the rules of UN proposals for example does not ask for (nor receive many) responses. The UN Strangers Bar, however, does.

And furthermore, if people stopped showing an interested in the Strangers Bar, what merit would there be in keeping it?

Just because it is a regularly used thread is no defence against re-stickying the Strangers Bar. This is more about it just being the right thing to do.

Unstickying the bar was an act of the utmost boringness and moderators ought to feel morally obliged to resticky a thread loved by many forthwith. In fact there should be a level of ashamedness that this hasn't been done already.


Actually, it is a good reason for it to not be a sticky, because if interest stays with the UN Strangers Bar, and people continue to post in it, it will be on the front page consistently for everyone to see. It may not be at the top of the 1st page, but its still going to be there. I think its linked to in one of the stickies anyways.

It's still the right thing to do.

This unstickying of the most popular thread in the UN is a travesty and only goes to underline the points which Bahgum has raised in other UN threads: which is that this NSUN has become more progressively anti-fun, despite the fact that a sizeable number of the regular posters here enjoy the odd bit of light hearted relief, alongside a few serious discussions. Why do you think the Strangers Bar is so popular??

Bahgum shall continue to argue for a lessening of this situation, as the UN used to be fun....honest...it did. It appears that this sentiment is becoming noticed by other nations too, if the correspondance i've had is anything to go by.

Checking after the weekend....not re-stickied yet?

Even if that were true (which it is not) it is not "an informative / reference thread to which people do not reply". Take the definition in full. A thread telling you the rules of UN proposals for example does not ask for (nor receive many) responses. The UN Strangers Bar, however, does.

And furthermore, if people stopped showing an interested in the Strangers Bar, what merit would there be in keeping it?

And I happen to disagree with the definition. From the perspective of a new member to the forums who've just signed up, a Stranger's Bar that's stickied seems more official and interesting that one that floats up and down the page. I know that if it hadn't been stickied when I first joined, I wouldn't have paid attention to it for a week or two. And if people lose interest in it (EXTREMELY unlikely, however) it can always be unstickied at a later date.

Stickying the Strangers' Bar gives it a sense of permanence - a feature of the NSUN, not another discussion to be lost to history. The Fleeting Daydream Of Safalra supports this petition.

Ladies and Gentlemen and Alien Beings of No Gender Of the NSUN.

I put it to you that from its humble beginings the NSUN Strangers Bar has become an institution reflecting the views and beliefs of the UN members frequenting its bar stools. The Bar is an oasis of calm where the members can get to know each other better and form bonds of kinship and friendliness.
The Bar simply must be RE-Stickied as it is as important to the NSUN as the current stickied threads if not more so. From within its walls wars have been quelled, alliances have formed and these have had an effect within the NS game world.

RE-STICKY the NSUN Strangers Bar Now!

And the bar still isn't stickied. Get on with it!!!!

RE-STICKY the NSUN Strangers Bar Now!

Um... no?

Um... no?

We, the interested parties, would like a reason from the most modest of moderators, rather than an all too simple and most undemocratic "Um... no?" as a reply.

We, the interested parties, would like a reason from the most modest of moderators, rather than an all too simple and most undemocratic "Um... no?" as a reply.

It has been discussed before, and I hate to put it to you, but this isn't a democracy. The mods in no way need to give a reason as to why they have acted the way they did.

or..apparently take notice of the concerns of a large portion of active gamers. Being a mod isn't just about keeping the posts clean and unnoffensive, but also listening to the wishes of those whom you represent....us.

Um... no?
Greetings.

This is a most interesting answer. We submitted 'UMNO' to the College of Diviners and they returned the following interesting knowledge base: there is an organisation called UMNO (http://www.umno-online.com/) which is part of a truly amazing political system.

Imagine, if you will, a rotating constitutional monarchy nominally heading a confederacy of states. Imagine alongside it a parliamentary democracy which has been blamed for a long list of human-rights abuses.

We of Roathin are no stranger to unusual political systems. But this one is bizarre. We hope that the "Um... no?" reply was not a veiled hint in this direction.

[...] listening to the wishes of those whom you represent....us.

Actually, I don't represent you. I represent Max Barry, [violet], and SalusaSecondus.

Actually, I don't represent you. I represent Max Barry, [violet], and SalusaSecondus.

Not wishing to offend your godliness, may I just observe that if you gave a brief reason for not re-stickying, all of us mortals would probably stop annoying you about it, and you'd have more time to drink champaign in Max Barry's penthouse suite. A good result all round, methinks.

all of us mortals would probably stop annoying you about it, and you'd have more time to drink champaign in Max Barry's penthouse suite.
Ah yes. The "giving the blackmailers what they want so they'll go away" argument. No. (Antagonizing the only ones capable of fulfilling your requests is also another proven winner of a strategy.)

We are not going to sticky a single RP just because it is popular. If it hadn't been started by Enodia, it most likely never would have been stuck in the first place. Stickies are for informative / instructional purposes, and the Stranger's Bar is neither.

"A large portion of active gamers?" We're talking maybe a few dozens of players, in a game with tens of thousands of members. This isn't a popularity contest, and you don't represent a majority in any case.

To sum up: No.

The mods represent Max et al....interesting, and thanks for clearing up any misconceptions, it's handy to know our place in the scheme of things.

Max has a sense of humour, his book was fun, so it wouldn't be a huge leap of faith to suggest that he would be with the rest of us on restickying the bar?

Max has a sense of humour, his book was fun, so it wouldn't be a huge leap of faith to suggest that he would be with the rest of us on restickying the bar?I'll rephrase that in the form of an actual question:

Would it be a huge leap of faith to suggest that he would be with the rest of us on restickying the bar?Simply put, giving your points-of-fact previous with which you attempt to support your argument, yes. Yes, it would be a huge leap of faith because a sense of humor and a fun book don't enter into it.

Now go away.

Hmmm, nice to know such open mindedness is alive and well. 'go away' is not a particularly nice, or helpful, reply to an issue which is of concern to folk here. It is certainly no way to debate a topic, even if one doesn't like the topic, or feels it is below one.
Perhaps Venerable Libertarians, who suggested this thread, not Bahgum, would like to comment on such a 'constructive' answer.

Three mods have now all said no ... and while the reality is NationStates is far from being a democracy (meaning non-moderators have very little influence here), I'd at least ask that given the level of interest that if the three of you have not already brought this request up to the rest of the moderation staff, please CONSIDER it.

The reason I'm asking (though I've never posted in that particular thread) is it should be obvious to the three of you that some of the UN forum regulars post in this forum *many* times per day. A few forum regulars seem to want to have their voice heard in damn near every discussion.

There is nothing wrong with that ... it is how they want to play the game. But I think newbies do come under attack and aren't given an edge to test the waters before the sharks attack (so to speak), and I'm hoping that a stickied (bling-bling attached) thread might give the people whom sometimes slam the newbies a high-profile and fun alternative to vent.

In some of the feeder off-site forums, those admins created a series of arenas ... specifically for people to vent. Enodia endorsed the Bar last year as a way for the then UN regulars to have a public place to vent *without* having to show off in every UN forum thread.

The mods represent Max et al....interesting, and thanks for clearing up any misconceptions, it's handy to know our place in the scheme of things.

Isn't it though? ;)

Max has a sense of humour, his book was fun, so it wouldn't be a huge leap of faith to suggest that he would be with the rest of us on restickying the bar?

Max might indeed be for keeping the Stranger's Bar stickied if he were here (he does have a damn good sense of humor, IMO), but to my knowledge he is not and he has given the Mods discretion about smaller matters like a thread getting stickied in the UN forum. :)

I understand that you want the UN forum to be more overtly fun like it used to be, but unfortunately this isn't going to work. I would suggest that you not bother the Mods about this any more, not because I don't think you should be able to express your opinion (which I actually think has merit, this being a game intended for fun and all), but because I don't want to see you forumbanned or deleted for spamming.

Hmmm, nice to know such open mindedness is alive and well. 'go away' is not a particularly nice, or helpful, reply to an issue which is of concern to folk here. It is certainly no way to debate a topic, even if one doesn't like the topic, or feels it is below one.
Perhaps Venerable Libertarians, who suggested this thread, not Bahgum, would like to comment on such a 'constructive' answer.
It interests me to note the Gods are exactly that. Apparently we the lowly mortals representing our powerless Nations here in the NSUN are to shut up and do as we are told. It appears the dictatorate of the Moderator team have ultimately given us a choice. Accept the ruling and Bog off or dont accept the ruling and bog off anyway.

Please, fellow barflies, heed the words of our ancient Texan. The Bar is fun, but it's not worth losing you for.

Well done disproving Safarla's theory:

"all of us mortals would probably stop annoying you about it, and you'd have more time to drink champaign in Max Barry's penthouse suite." (BTW - what's the command to quote?)

Now the mods have even less reason to explain their actions (even though this one was self-evident and a few others already mentioned it)

On most forums I've been to, stickies are for those threads that the MODERATORS consider IMPORTANT or perhaps NECESSARY for all to read. Occasionally you'll get the odd Newbie Questions thread pinned (though they have chosen instead to use official tutorials), but overall, I have never seen a RP thread stickied on a non RP forum (actually, even on an RP forum, I've only ever seen the rules of RP stickied).

It's not like we didn't seek input for what would and wouldn't be stickied. Out of the 45 people who bothered to vote on it, only 19 wanted the Stranger's Bar stickied. The Case Study received more votes but wasn't stuck either.

Any other arguements you'd like to have gutted by reality?

I have decided to leave this alone as there is no point. As it is my final post on the matter all i will say is the following statement......

Stuffy shirts 1, Fun for all Nil.

I thank Bahgum for his support in the matter. see you in the bar for a pint..... if you can find it! :D

I I would suggest that you not bother the Mods about this any more, not because I don't think you should be able to express your opinion (which I actually think has merit, this being a game intended for fun and all), but because I don't want to see you forumbanned or deleted for spamming.

Thanks for the helpful comments and concern texan ;)

Well, Bahgum will have to disagree, we hope that eventually the UN may swing back to being more fun, and besides someone ought to campaign for it.

As for being banned,I would like to note that no-one has ever suggested such an action, and I would trust that anyone considering such, would have the politeness to talk to us first.
If Bahgum can be banned for raising a harmless, non-offensive issue, which we try to argue for in an always as polite as possible (no matter what kind of unhelpful or confrontational response) manner, then there would be something seriously wrong with the game. Bahgum does not wish to confront mods, or anyone, and note that some of the replies in this thread and actions in others do not need a response, they say it all anyway.

As for spamming Bahgum does no more than those who repetitively raise their burning issues on religion/marriage/sexuality/drugs etc, to us, fun is our central issue.

Ah yes. The "giving the blackmailers what they want so they'll go away" argument. No. (Antagonizing the only ones capable of fulfilling your requests is also another proven winner of a strategy.)
But then you go on to give us what we want anyway... [edit: an answer, that is]

We are not going to sticky a single RP just because it is popular. If it hadn't been started by Enodia, it most likely never would have been stuck in the first place. Stickies are for informative / instructional purposes, and the Stranger's Bar is neither.
Okay, that's an answer. I'll keep my side of the deal and stop pestering you now. (Does this mean blackmail works?)

It's not like we didn't seek input for what would and wouldn't be stickied. Out of the 45 people who bothered to vote on it, only 19 wanted the Stranger's Bar stickied. The Case Study received more votes but wasn't stuck either.

Any other arguements you'd like to have gutted by reality?

Yes, I'll start with your own.

Of the 45 people who bothered to vote on it in EARLY May, some of them may no longer be around. Did you make the poll public? If so, I highly recommend ... no I "politely suggest" you look to see if some of those votes were from nations that have no expired.

Second, I voted *not* for the Stranger's Bar in that poll if I recall correctly. And a month later seeing that virtually all the stickies have been gutted and that more veteran UN players are posting more frequently I've changed my mind.

My point, polls are only valid for a short time. I've run enough of these to say that with experience.

[edit: if anybody can provide me the link to the poll, I'll be happy to characterize the votes by age of nation and list of any that may have expired]

Ooooh..ooohh....i like the lets find an old poll in our favour game...how about : http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=423128

Maybe not on restickying the Strangers bar, but on the topic of fun, which seems to be at the bottom of this issue too. That poll is with the fun side of the debate. Have we got a draw? Go on.....

A compromise would be ever so nice. Perhaps those accused of owning somewhat overfull shirts could calm down and accept a bit of a laugh (without immediate deletion or high handed dismissal/derision) and those of us with a rather flippant/frivolous view of life will go back to our strange comments and nonsense, stop going over the same issue(s) on lack of fun and wondering just what mods are for....it is a drag for us too you know.

Greetings.

Argument #1

Actually, as we walked around the NSUN edifice (it can hardly be called a building, although it is some sort of construct), we noted that the Strangers' Bar is never in the same place, appears to differ in orientation each time (or was that the effect of one too many Plutonium Dooms?) and has vast variation in dimensions.

It follows therefore that the Bar is not a fixed place. It is one of those irritatingly variable places which, whether one is irritated or not, one must accept as such. Accordingly, it is meet that the Bar NOT be stickied.

Argument #2

Gentlebeings (or not so gentle) all, if the Bar stands for levity and wit and creativity and dynamism and is a place to chill out... what then is the point of stickying it?

To alter that which is mobile, dynamic, alive, free and unfixed - by transforming it into a poor shadow stuck in one location - is the saddest fate the Strangers' Bar might ever meet. Let it remain free, with its clientele moving it around by sure perspicacity and liberal wit, both in quantity or quality.

Argument #1

Actually, as we walked around the NSUN edifice (it can hardly be called a building, although it is some sort of construct), we noted that the Strangers' Bar is never in the same place, appears to differ in orientation each time (or was that the effect of one too many Plutonium Dooms?) and has vast variation in dimensions.


And this is different than the sticked resolutions, where the debate is often coming from vastly different worlds. We see just about every resolution endure post after post of tech-wanking from one or two UN forum regulars, and many newbies just shrug it off -- the end result often results in flame wars.

And yet the resolution debates are sticked ... does that mean they have a single focus or anchor point?


Argument #2

Gentlebeings (or not so gentle) all, if the Bar stands for levity and wit and creativity and dynamism and is a place to chill out... what then is the point of stickying it?

Honest answer: distraction. Some players want to interact with as many other players as possible and have used the bar as a "diplomatic" roleplay. OK, I've seen some good RPs in the bar, and I've also see the normal frakking awful "I'll steal your pens from your desk" RPs there as well. But the point isn't what is good and what is not, but that by sticking the thread it will distract people whom want to just argue every post in every proposal / resolution thread -- thereby giving newbies a chance to hopefully get more constructive advice.

I think of the bar as a bit of smoke and mirrors designed to give veterans a chance to vent, without having them directly attack specific newbies.

Think of it this way, do we really need to yell at an individual for not having read 107 resolutions? No, that is just being a jerk. But if it bugs me that somebody walks in and proposes that we track asteroids (which we've already done), instead of starting a potential flame war, I can run to the bar and say,

"Wow, it never amazes me. We debate a resolution, pass it by a huge margin, and then a year later somebody comes along to reinvent the wheel. WTF is up with that?"

Then some other long-timer can egg me on, while the entire time we won't really be harassing the newbie. The proposal that duplicates another proposal will be swept away by the moderators ... so why start a fight over something like that?

While the bar can still be used for this, sticking it will attract more attention. Furthermore, newbies should *also* have a place to vent their frustrations. Imagine this, "Damnation! My government just entered the UN and some pencil necked geek is threatening to flatten my country with some sort of Star Destroyer. As if! My own daughter watches Star Wars all the time and I keep telling her it is not real. Where do nations come off sending nutcases whom threaten to nuke a country just because we disagree over a subject like a resolution on child abduction? Bar keep, I'd like a wiskey, straight up!"

Both are valid frustrations. While the older player might like the bar, the younger player might not know its purpose. The thread could be stickied and the first post should explain *why* Enodia created it and why it is still stickied. It also should list a few rules ... if it has then.

In fact, if I were a mod, I'd have fun with the bar. I'd actually create a set of "Bar House Rules" and then create a western styled bar or irish pub environment in Illustrator with the rules in a *.jpeg. Like "1. No blasters!", "2. Don't disintregrate or carbon freeze other patrons." etc.

The moderators have a real chance to give the "let's put some fun back into NationStates" camp a big bone here. They also have the time to show off their creative abilities, besides taking their own subtle flames and digs at players they find annoying (and they do ... some of them fire off remarks that if they weren't moderators would get them in trouble).

The primary reason against the bar seems to me that they want to not start down a slippery slope and sticky everything. In 2004, there was a time when EVERYBODY wrote a guide and tried to have their guide stickied. It was a status symbol.

The difference is the moderators will have to "own" the bar to a small degree, which goes without say ... they would be sticking it. But they can put up a short list of rules and then use it as a place to direct malcontents.

Or they can do what they think is in the best interests of NS and not just a group of activists (who appear outnumbered judging by who and how many are posting on either side of the fence). It is for them to decide. Certainly with the number of spinoff chat channels and forums, I'm sure that a less-than-completely-lazy "fun-wanter" can make or find his own place to have fun if he's not allowed to directly on this forum.

Personally, when I'm venting about proposals, I do so on my region's webboard or chat room. Personally, I find it to be a rather enjoyable place to discuss issues, have debates, RP, trade casual jokes, etc. You don't have to make THIS board about fun - and perhaps the UN mods are not as interested in it as you are. Having tried to moderate RP forums before, I feel it is a rather....unpleasant experience because sometimes, when you need to be a hardass, those jokes just aren't as funny as people thought they were.

Or they can do what they think is in the best interests of NS.


It was a NationStates moderator who focused primarily on the UN forum that originally came up with the idea.

The policies of the game do change as different people make the decisions, but I think the moderators should still re-examine what Enodia's thoughts were in originally suggesting the thread. Given that Enodia's rules are still largely maintained, there is probably some wisdom in his other decisions as a game moderator as well.


Personally, when I'm venting about proposals, I do so on my region's webboard or chat room. Personally, I find it to be a rather enjoyable place to discuss issues, have debates, RP, trade casual jokes, etc.

Oh, here I totally agree with you. I'm a bit more critical of UN resolutions on my region's forum, because I like to encourage players to think and propose new ideas here. I'd hate for my personal dislike of something to discourage somebody from being creative.

But this is not an opinion that some extremely vocal players share. They enjoy public interactions, and I strongly believe that they can have a public spotlight here without needing to pick apart every word of a newer player's resolution and in the process making this forum come across as being somewhat hostile to new players or new ways of thinking.

Thanks for the helpful comments and concern texan ;)

Well, Bahgum will have to disagree, we hope that eventually the UN may swing back to being more fun, and besides someone ought to campaign for it.

As for being banned,I would like to note that no-one has ever suggested such an action, and I would trust that anyone considering such, would have the politeness to talk to us first.
If Bahgum can be banned for raising a harmless, non-offensive issue, which we try to argue for in an always as polite as possible (no matter what kind of unhelpful or confrontational response) manner, then there would be something seriously wrong with the game. Bahgum does not wish to confront mods, or anyone, and note that some of the replies in this thread and actions in others do not need a response, they say it all anyway.

As for spamming Bahgum does no more than those who repetitively raise their burning issues on religion/marriage/sexuality/drugs etc, to us, fun is our central issue.

Just be careful. Sandpit had his central issue as well, but it got to the point where he brought it up so often that he got called on spamming.

Greetings.

Perhaps the solution is to put the NSUN Strangers' Bar in a forum section of its own. After all, there is already a link to it in the Sticky about the NSUN, so it is 'indirectly stickied' anyway. Creating a Strangers' Bar section would allow you to post a sticky in that section containing guidelines for Bar behaviour and such. And what behaviour might get you Barred.

Of the 45 people who bothered to vote on it in EARLY May, some of them may no longer be around. Did you make the poll public? If so, I highly recommend ... no I "politely suggest" you look to see if some of those votes were from nations that have no expired.Do your own research. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=412283)

Look, folks, it's really simple. Look at all the forums here. What's stickied? Collections of rules, important notices, and other such official things. Role-plays are not stickied. A Forum Moderator, a Game Moderator and a Senior Game Moderator have all denied this request. The Bar is included in the master sticky at the top of the forum. Even if it was on page 500, you could easily jump right to it.

Do your own research. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=412283)


Thanks for the link and I will research it. I always have. But there honestly is NO reason to be so "short". :(

What I'm propsing I do (some weekend when I have a bit of time):

Looking back at that particular poll and also comparing some polls on UN resolutions I conducted months ago. The UN resolution polls asked the same question, and I've always wondered just how representative polls are (i.e. if a question is asked again a month later will the response be very different).

As I pointed out earlier, in this case I think the decision that players weren't interested in the Bar may have been weighted by short-timers. (Though I also suppose it is possible that for every newbie that leaves that there is roughly another that comes in -- hence the reason I want to also spend some time looking at the other polls, they can be a great benchmark / control.)

I'll be happy to share what I find, as I am guessing others will be interested.


Look, folks, it's really simple. Look at all the forums here. What's stickied? Collections of rules, important notices, and other such official things. Role-plays are not stickied. A Forum Moderator, a Game Moderator and a Senior Game Moderator have all denied this request. The Bar is included in the master sticky at the top of the forum. Even if it was on page 500, you could easily jump right to it.

I don't agree. I understand the desire to keep everything stickied to rules only. But wasn't the original idea's Enodia's, a Game Moderator? Although he is gone, I think the original idea of the bar was good.

Give me a few weeks (especially with the holiday).