NationStates Jolt Archive

Controversy abounds across the world regarding the importance of education. Some nations for religious and/or political reasons neglect the teaching of evolution and even more troublesome prohibit the teaching of evolution in schools. Interested in hearing alternative opinions on this issue from leaders and spokespersons of current or pending UN members. Currently the Holy Empire of Saint Lucius Malfoy has submitted a proposal to create awareness of this important issue regarding freedom to learn that has significant repercussions for future generations.

It is my belief that children should not be kept ignorant of such important scientific evidence.

Children should at least learn about the evidence and what it implies, regardless of any particular belief system.

It is generally appreciated if you post a copy of the proposal on the forums.

Category: Human Rights
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Saint Lucius Malfoy

Description: In honour of the late Pope John Paul II the Holy Empire of Saint Lucius Malfoy proposes that the United Nations endorse the idea that the teaching and learning of evolutionary theory is a fundamental human right. Pope John Paul II endorsed the theory of evolution as 'more than a hypothesis' in his speech to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on October 23, 1996. Pope John Paul II's speech may be below (it was also published in Quarterly Review of Biology 72.4, December 1997):

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm

The Holy Empire of Saint Lucius Malfoy believes that freedom to teach and learn is a basic pathway toward a healthier and more peaceful co-existence between nations.

The United Nations should collectively discourage the suppression of this grand unifying theme called evolutionary theory. The theory connects all living things great and small. Humans can ill afford to construct artificial conceptual boundaries between themselves and the natural world. Environmentally sustainable activities may also be furthered by endorsing this "Right to learn about evolution" proposal as future generations may better understand how and why we are dependent upon the natural environment. Such understanding may be a first step toward preventing further destruction of our planet from selfish human endeavours.

pax vobiscum - peace be with you

Proposal inspired and/or partially written by the following individuals:

President in absentia: Isaac Asimov
Public Relations Secretary: Nathaniel Hornblower
Defense Secretary: Jay Silverheels
Environment Secretary: Jose Andres Tamayo Cortez
Education Secretary: Dr. Albert Bandura
Public Understanding of Science: Dr. Richard Dawkins
Editorial Assistance and Research: Spike Jonze

I have no problem with anyone having "a right to learn about evolution" (I think anyone has the right to learn whatever the hell they want), but we can't force any nation's schools to teach it. Fortunately, this proposal doesn't seem to do that. It just discourages "the suppression of this grand unifying theme called evolutionary theory", and of course I support that.

While I agree on a personal level with the ideas expressed by this proposal, the notion of dictating a nation's educational curriculum goes against the Sophistan intepretation of national sovereignty. With or without a papal sanction (which may or may not skim the lines of a "real-life reference" deletion), the world cannot be expected to jump up and embrace a cause with which they have a profound moral opposition to.

Good poll.

I think that a poll with several options is a great way to point to trends in national attitudes on subjects and wish you luck.

I voted that the issue is up to religious and political leaders, but I'm optimistic that they'll realize that it is in their best interest to teach evolution.

Aren't resolutions referring to RL people or events a "no-no"?

Aren't resolutions referring to RL people or events a "no-no"?

Yes.

In honour of the late Pope John Paul II the Holy Empire of Saint Lucius Malfoy proposes that the United Nations endorse the idea that the teaching and learning of evolutionary theory is a fundamental human right. Pope John Paul II endorsed the theory of evolution as 'more than a hypothesis' in his speech to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on October 23, 1996. Pope John Paul II's speech may be below (it was also published in Quarterly Review of Biology 72.4, December 1997):


Though I completely understand why the author added this in his / her proposal. First, the idea that the supreme Catholic would acknowledge evolution is fairly interesting and key to his / her arguement. Second, some of the old resolutions (like mine) quoted real-life reports, because not everybody will take the time to read a discussion thread. On a contraversial issue, like with the Tsunami Warning System, the uneducated masses will often assume the worst, like "It costs BILLIONS!" before finding this stuff ... so proposal authors feel the need to do this.

There might be another way to do the same thing and be legal, I just haven't figured it out in this case. To be honest, I'm hoping that this idea makes it to the UN floor, because I'd love to see the debate. :) Not participate in it, but watch.

Yeah, I agree that the RL reference needs to be removed.

While I agree on a personal level with the ideas expressed by this proposal, the notion of dictating a nation's educational curriculum goes against the Sophistan intepretation of national sovereignty.

I too would be completely against this proposal if it stated that nations' schools HAVE to teach evolution. Maybe I misunderstood it, but my interpretation is that "right to learn about evolution" is just that- nations cannot interfere with students who wish to learn about evolution. In a worst case (and admittedly oversimplified) scenario, an extreme theocracy whose national public school curriculum teaches that the world is flat and that human beings were created 500 years ago by Bob the Mighty Potato God would have to bow to a petition from the parents of school district students who would want thier children to be taught evolution as well.

[QUOTE=Fatus Maximus]Yeah, I agree that the RL reference needs to be removed.

Criticism noted and please accept my apologies on behalf of the Holy Empire of Saint Lucius Malfoy. Below is the most recent version of the UN proposal. Thanks to those of you who are participating in this discussion.

Best regards,
Professor F. Xavier
UN Representative for Saint Lucius Malfoy

Revised Proposal

"Right to Learn about Evolution"

UN Proposal April 18 2005

In honor of the late Pope Maximus Aquinas V of the Holy Empire of Saint Lucius Malfoy we propose the United Nations endorse the idea that the teaching and learning of evolutionary theory is a fundamental human right. Our dearly departed Pope endorsed the theory of evolution as “more than a hypothesis” in his speech to the Saint Lucius Malfoy Pontifical Science Academy on December 25, 2003. A paraphrased excerpt from the Pope’s speech is below (it was published in the Annual Journal of Royal Anthropological Society: New Brunswick: United Free Press of Saint Lucius Malfoy, Volume 1, No. 1 January 2004):

“My faithful parishioners I want you to know that God would not be so malevolent as to plant evidence for an ancient Earth of approximately 3.5 billion years. The splendor and study of natural variation should be enjoyed by all children.”

The Holy Empire of Saint Lucius Malfoy believes that freedom to teach and learn is a basic pathway toward a healthier and more peaceful co-existence between nations.

It is not the intention of this proposal to enforce a curriculum upon nations which have varied cultural and societal tastes. However the United Nations must collectively discourage the suppression of this grand unifying theme called evolutionary theory. Teachers of the idea should also be free from imprisonment and persecution.

The theory connects all living things great and small. Humans can ill afford to construct artificial conceptual boundaries between themselves and the natural world. Environmentally sustainable activities may also be furthered by endorsing this "Right to learn about evolution" proposal as future generations may better understand how and why we are dependent upon the natural environment. Such understanding may be a first step toward preventing further destruction of our planet from selfish human endeavors.

pax vobiscum - peace be with you

Proposal inspired and/or partially written by the following individuals:

President in absentia: I. Asimov
Public Relations Secretary: Nathaniel Hornblower
Defense Secretary: J. Silverheels
Environment Secretary: J.A.T. Cortez
Education Secretary: Dr. A. Bandura
Public Understanding of Science: Dr. R. Dawkins
Editorial Assistance and Research: S. Jonze

As stated by a few people, I believe that people have a right to learn what they want.

Why don't we just teach that Satan doesn't exist? Charles Darwin was a pedophile who sought to undermine and mock the Book of Genesis! There is no monkey in my lineage, and our schools will not teach this anti-Christian mockery of the children of God.

--Welsh

...There is no monkey in my lineage...

That's only because you evolved from the bacteria that feed on dead things at the bottom of the sea, away from all light.
Would you please join your kin?

Who was Charles Darwin? I have it on good authority that evolutionary theory was formulated by Tevon Dekker, my paternal grandfather, whose tireless dedication to the sciences inspired both my father Varik, and myself, to pursue careers in advancing the repository of knowledge available to Krioval.

A better question is why has Krioval ascended to space from the barest concept of electricity in eighty years while despotic theocracies have remained in the Stone Age for most of the last millennium?

~ Raijin Dekker

Why don't we just teach that Satan doesn't exist? Charles Darwin was a pedophile who sought to undermine and mock the Book of Genesis! There is no monkey in my lineage, and our schools will not teach this anti-Christian mockery of the children of God.

--Welsh

And with Sidestreamer's disagreement to it, this proposal has recieved my full and unconditional endorsement.

my personal opinion is that it should be a basic right of people to be able to learn this. Even if I didnt think the theory of evolution was correct, I would still think people would have a right to be able to hear about it.
So for me this proposal isnt so much about the theory of evolution, but wether people are allowed to hear about scientifical explanations of how the world works.

That's only because you evolved from the bacteria that feed on dead things at the bottom of the sea, away from all light.
Would you please join your kin?

How typical of the leftists to speak invectives on this floor! Do you have any irrefutable proof of evilution? It isn't called "Evolution theory" for nothing; it isn't proven! If you cannot prove it, I can say with equal justification that Darwin is in fact a pedophile!

--Welsh

Who was Charles Darwin? I have it on good authority that evolutionary theory was formulated by Tevon Dekker, my paternal grandfather, whose tireless dedication to the sciences inspired both my father Varik, and myself, to pursue careers in advancing the repository of knowledge available to Krioval.

A better question is why has Krioval ascended to space from the barest concept of electricity in eighty years while despotic theocracies have remained in the Stone Age for most of the last millennium?

~ Raijin Dekker

Well, my colleague from Krivoal, Mr. Raijin Dekker, clearly you overlook our military might and our powerful manufacturing sectors. Under God and our Savior, we have no wants, for we are content, unlike your people, who force themselves to overextend themselves under their empty attempts to conquer the barriers God has set against us. Like the tower of Babel, you will keep building, trying to reach God, but eventually, your technologies will be turned against you, you will fall from the tower, and your society will fracture from your attempts to reach what you weren't meant to reach.

Meanwhile, we will keep with God and live the Life.
--Welsh

Well, my colleague from Krivoal, Mr. Raijin Dekker, clearly you overlook our military might and our powerful manufacturing sectors. Under God and our Savior, we have no wants, for we are content, unlike your people, who force themselves to overextend themselves under their empty attempts to conquer the barriers God has set against us. Like the tower of Babel, you will keep building, trying to reach God, but eventually, your technologies will be turned against you, you will fall from the tower, and your society will fracture from your attempts to reach what you weren't meant to reach.

Meanwhile, we will keep with God and live the Life.
--Welsh

First, it's Commander Raijin Dekker to you. Second, Krioval outranks you in both military and economic power, and that will likely forever be the case. Third, most in Krioval do not recognize, let alone attempt to reach, your God. You entertain me, but like all forms of entertainment, there are suitable limits to one's intake. My threshold has been reached. Good day.

Lord Raijin Dekker Darklighter, the Light
Commander of Krioval
High Paladin of Solokaro

First, it's Commander Raijin Dekker to you. Second, Krioval outranks you in both military and economic power, and that will likely forever be the case. Third, most in Krioval do not recognize, let alone attempt to reach, your God. You entertain me, but like all forms of entertainment, there are suitable limits to one's intake. My threshold has been reached. Good day.

Lord Raijin Dekker Darklighter, the Light
Commander of Krioval
High Paladin of Solokaro

I pray for you, Commander. You know not what you do. May you be forgiven.

--Welsh
Ambassador to the UN from the Holy Empire of Sidestreamer
UN Delegate for the Militaristic Legions and Plans

The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites will not support this proposal as we believe that the specific teachings of a nation's educational system should be left up to the individual nations to decide.

How typical of the leftists to speak invectives on this floor! Do you have any irrefutable proof of evilution? It isn't called "Evolution theory" for nothing; it isn't proven! If you cannot prove it, I can say with equal justification that Darwin is in fact a pedophile!

--Welsh
And I can say with equal justification that you are a hopeless cretin. And I'm speaking invectives, meanwhile you accuse an innocent scientist of peadophilia, and that means nothing?

the Cyrian fossil record has no gaps. We have been able to find a clear progression from the first organisms on our planet to life as it currently is. Murder cases have been descided on far, far less evidence than we have available.

The teaching of evolution is already madatory in all Waterana's schools. We are a nation of science not myth. We agree that knowledge is a basic human right. So we will support this proposal if it makes it to the floor for voting.

We allow the teaching of creation in schools as well, but on a voluntairy basis, and only in a private schools religion class. Religion of any form is banned from the public school system.

How typical of the leftists to speak invectives on this floor! Do you have any irrefutable proof of evilution? It isn't called "Evolution theory" for nothing; it isn't proven! If you cannot prove it, I can say with equal justification that Darwin is in fact a pedophile!

--Welsh
do you have irrefutable proof of creationism, besides a book, written by men, and corrupted men to further their own power? and how do we know you havent corrupted it yourself to further your own power?

(Aside: Geez, I'd've never guessed "United Nations" could deconstruct itself into a cesspool of "General" flames so quickly)

I respect the proposal in that it knows its limitations. Here are the wording choices I like:

...It is not the intention of this proposal to enforce a curriculum upon nations which have varied cultural and societal tastes....United Nations must collectively discourage the suppression of...evolutionary. Teachers...should also be free from imprisonment and persecution.

On such a cultural/national issue, I think this is approporiately as far as the UN can go. Of course (as always), on any rewrites I'd like to see less narrative and more proposed material (utilizing, perhaps, RECOGNIZING or ENCOURAGING, etc. as well a more "white space"). It'd make things easier to understand and more succinct for all.

The entire nationstate of "The Republic of Tekania" and the subsequent "Constitutional Republic of Tekania" popped up ex-nihlo in May of 2004... Thus, it is obvious from the evidence at hand, that ex-nihlo creation by one or more supreme beings is taking place.

And I am certain, by my faith and by reason, that my creator is sitting at his comfy chair, and dictating the policies and directions of his people at this very moment while toting down iced-tea and smoking a cigarette...

Do you have any irrefutable proof of evilution? It isn't called "Evolution theory" for nothing; it isn't proven! If you cannot prove it, I can say with equal justification that Darwin is in fact a pedophile!

--Welsh
actually just because its called the "Theory of Evolution" doesnt make it just a theory. For example there is also "Theory of Gravity", but I think only a few people doubt that gravity exists.

However you can never really prove that we exist through evolution, but it has been proven that evolution does exist and that it is logical to assume that all the skeletons of other humanlike species are the evolution from ape to human.

We belive that every side of a tale must be told if people are to come to a conclution that they are comfortable with. This as well. Therefor it should be a basic human right to learn both the evolutionary theories and the creationist theories in school.

Besides telling people what they have to teach is better than telling them what they are not allowed to teach.

This is not the General forum. Knock off the flaming and behave.

In character objections to evolution is fine. We will not discuss it in an out of character manner.

- The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator

OOC: That was my character.

We would be in favour of supporting a proposal which endorsed the right to be taught evolutionary theory, although we would prefer one which placed less weight on the opinions of one religious leader - how about something like "Welcoming the growing willingness of many religious leaders to accept the scientific evidence in favour of the theory of evolution". Also, lose the extensive credits. I'd prefer not to see any branding or crediting except to a co-authoring nation.

In fact, I'd support a resolution which went as far as mandating that science curricula must include discussion of scientific thought on the origins of life and its diversity which is not biased towards theories which have little standing amongst experts. Students should be presented with the legitimate, scientifically accurate arguments and evidence surrounding the Darwinian theory of evolution and other possible explanations. Of course, students should be reminded that evolution is a theory, but this should be accompanied by education on the nature of theory and scientific development. Everyone needs to understand that all scientific ideas are theories - it's just that some have overwhelming evidence in support of them and often can be assumed to be accurate until substantial contradictory evidence appears or a better theory arises.

EDIT: Actually, such a proposal would be a little specific. If something like this were to be done, it would probably be better to insist that students have the right to be taught any scientific theories on any scientific question without bias towards theories which are not widely supported by the relevant experts.

Out of that whole proposal, only one paragraph actually suggests anything. The rest is branding and fluff.It is not the intention of this proposal to enforce a curriculum upon nations which have varied cultural and societal tastes. However the United Nations must collectively discourage the suppression of this grand unifying theme called evolutionary theory. Teachers of the idea should also be free from imprisonment and persecution. Couple suggestions:

See the current topic on Branding (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413406) for a sense of how the membership feels about all these national references.

See also United Nations Resolution Writing Guide (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=342360) for some tips on how to use standardized language and format in crafting International Law. The format currently used is fine for a forum discussion, but has no business being submitted as a potential law.

Out of that whole proposal, only one paragraph actually suggests anything. The rest is branding and fluff.Couple suggestions:

See the current topic on Branding (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413406) for a sense of how the membership feels about all these national references.

See also United Nations Resolution Writing Guide (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=342360) for some tips on how to use standardized language and format in crafting International Law. The format currently used is fine for a forum discussion, but has no business being submitted as a potential law.

Thank you for the links and advice. This was the first proposal submitted by our humble nation. Specific editorial suggestions (e.g., deletions, additions etc.) would be greatly appreciated and we (Saint Lucius Malfoy) would include you as co-authors on a final more comprehensive document. Provided there is significant interest in the core premises behind the proposal it may be worthwhile to redesign it. I suppose if there are at least 100 endorsements by Friday we may take that as a sign of general interest and begin re-designing the proposal for re-submission citing the individuals / nation states who assisted in substantial ways during the process.

Of course it's a human right, there's no question about it. I think it's correct, as I am a complete atheist. I think people have the right to decide for themselves.