NationStates Jolt Archive

Submitted: 3/21/2005 11:15PM GMT

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Eradicate Smallpox
A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

Category: Human Rights
Strength: Mild
Proposed By: The United States of Allemande

Description:

RECOGNIZING that the United Nations has already acted to limit the spread of contagious disease through such efforts as United Nations Resolutions #9 ("Keep the World Disease Free (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7029596&postcount=10)") and #84 ("NS HIV AIDS Act (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8012656&postcount=85)"), AND

ACKNOWLEDGING that such acts are justified given the difficulty of containing epidemics, even in the face of prophylactic measures such as those authorized by United Nations Resolutions #34 ("No Embargoes on Medicine (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7029664&postcount=34)") and #43 ("Increased Access to Medicine (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7030045&postcount=43)") (among others), AND

OBSERVING that highly virulent diseases are the best source of potential templates for so-called "bioweapons" - weapons whose development and use the United Nations has attempted to limit through such acts as United Nations Resolution #17 ("Elimination of Bio Weapons (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7029613&postcount=17)"), AND FINALLY

REALIZING that no concerted effort has yet been mounted to address one of the world's oldest and deadliest contagions - variola (commonly known as "smallpox") - a disease of considerable danger in its natural form and even greater danger as a bioweapon,

THE UNITED NATIONS

DECLARES ACCORDINGLY that all Member nations shall make a concerted effort to eradicate smallpox within their territory through the use of established disease eradication techniques, such as quarantine and vaccination, AND

FURTHER CALLS UPON all Member nations to increase health care spending accordingly to cover the costs of these measures, AND

ALSO FINALLY RECOMMENDS that all Member nations provide other Member nations a share of this additional spending, in a fashion entirely at their discretion, as long as such assistance would not be detrimental to their own eradication efforts, for the purpose of accelerating the pace at which this disease can be wiped out worldwide.

The United States of Allemande offers this proposal to address an oversight in our efforts to protect the world from the scourge of infectious diseases. While past proposals mention several well-known diseases, such as malaria, typhus, and AIDS, one of the deadliest diseases in human history - variola, or "smallpox" - has been ignored.

There is no cure for smallpox. It confronts us with a mortality rate as high as 30%, and survivors are often left horribly scarred or blinded. The only known defensive measure is prevention: populations can be innoculated or vaccinated against this dread disease at a relatively modest cost, and the effectiveness lasts a lifetime.

A concerted effort by the world community could eliminate the threat of smallpox epidemics. It could also protect us against the even greater danger of an induced epidemic, brought about by a rogue nation or terrorist group. If the Membership of the NSUN declare the eradication of this disease as a mandate for all members, then both of these threats will cease to exist in very short order, and the world will be better for it.

This seems like a very good proposal. You have the full support of The Grand Duchy of Olwe, and I will speak to the other members of the United Medical Alliance when I have time to do so, and try to get them behind this as well.

Supported.

Do you have a safe vaccine? The last time I checked, the smallpox vaccine was also sometimes deadly to people.

we still have reservations. how many nations are actually affected by smallpox? and given that, how are we going to stop it in non-UN countries, especially those that want nothing to do with the UN? (i can name atleast one region that does not take outside interference kindly)

we still have reservations. how many nations are actually affected by smallpox? and given that, how are we going to stop it in non-UN countries, especially those that want nothing to do with the UN? (i can name atleast one region that does not take outside interference kindly)

*cough* If Vastiva is safe, and has adequate protections against such things being "imported", we are very happy with the state of things. If other UN nations can further guarantee the eradication/suppression of smallpox, this encourages us to trade more with them.

We see no problem here.

*cough* If Vastiva is safe, and has adequate protections against such things being "imported", we are very happy with the state of things. If other UN nations can further guarantee the eradication/suppression of smallpox, this encourages us to trade more with them.

We see no problem here.
i will admit, this is a fair quote, but i am just concerned as to how much impact smallpox has really had. though we have heard of it, we have yet to hear any nation actually affected by it.

*buries your desk in intelligence reports on the subject, all declassified and over five years old*

Happy now, chief?

*makes note to have the HSI team in Resistancia receive a shipment of smallpox, just to spread it around a bit*

*buries your desk in intelligence reports on the subject, all declassified and over five years old*

Happy now, chief?

*makes note to have the HSI team in Resistancia receive a shipment of smallpox, just to spread it around a bit*
ha ha, nice. can we be serious for a minute?
A) how do we know nations that have it havent got it under control?
B) how can we stop it in non-UN nations?
i think it is a bit bold to try to 'eradicate' smallpox. and also, as stated in the previous discussion on this proposal, why just smallpox? why not malaria (sp?) and other life threatening diseases? why should one desease be targeted when there are many others?

and also, as stated in the previous discussion on this proposal, why just smallpox? why not malaria (sp?) and other life threatening diseases? why should one desease be targeted when there are many others?

Perhaps you would prefer a "Limit Infectious Diseases" proposal?

Perhaps you would prefer a "Limit Infectious Diseases" proposal?
i dont know about infections diseases, maybe life-threatening ones. if you say infectious, this could also cover many non-life-treatening diseases that pass pretty quickly

Do you have a safe vaccine? The last time I checked, the smallpox vaccine was also sometimes deadly to people.No, the vaccine carries with it risks; thus it is contraindicated for persons with immune disorders, such as VODAIS, AIDS, lupus, and multiple sclerosis. However, ring vaccination combined with isolation of vulnerable persons (those who can not take the vaccine) has proven effective on a local basis.

Autoimmune Patients Need to Be Aware of Smallpox Vaccine Risks (http://www.thyroid-info.com/autoimmune/smallpox.htm)

Smallpox Vaccine Includes a Dose of Risk (http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002205.html)

OOC: These are real world links. I am assuming that, until someone RP's the development of a risk-free vaccine, we have only what exists in RL to go by.

we still have reservations. how many nations are actually affected by smallpox? and given that, how are we going to stop it in non-UN countries, especially those that want nothing to do with the UN? (i can name atleast one region that does not take outside interference kindly)
We don't know. My assumption is that the problem is as prevalent as it was in RL pre-1970.
We can encourage them to do so (they could RP this), but ultimately we will merely be protecting the community of current and future NSUN members. The benefit to NSUN members and non-UN members that note this effort and join in is that they can refuse to recognize the disease in future RP actions without risking the accusation of godmoding.

ha ha, nice. can we be serious for a minute?
A) how do we know nations that have it havent got it under control?
B) how can we stop it in non-UN nations?
i think it is a bit bold to try to 'eradicate' smallpox. and also, as stated in the previous discussion on this proposal, why just smallpox? why not malaria (sp?) and other life threatening diseases? why should one desease be targeted when there are many others?I can answer the first bullet this way: in RL, the problem was only dealt with by concerted international action. In NS history, no such action has occured. Therefore I believe it is safe to say that, in the absence of an NS event to say otherwise (including the mere existence of a vaccine, since the vaccine predated RL eradication by 200 years), we are likely vulnerable (which means any player out there who wants to RP a smallpox epidemic could start a worldwide plague). Once this resolution has passed, we can say with equal safety that any effort by a non-NSUN player to attack an NSUN nation with smallpox could be considered an automatic failure.

Let me address the "does-it-exist-here?" question a little more metaphorically. Players often RP super-cavitating torpedoes, stealth technology, fuel-air explosives, etc. No one doubts the existence of these things in RP or accuses those who use them of godmoding, unless the user is a brand new nation without the time or money to build the kind of military that would have them.

On that basis, right now, why couldn't someone RP having smallpox? If we're not prepared to call man's most modern military technology godmoding, how can we call the introduction of a contagion with a 3,000 history godmoding?

No, the vaccine carries with it risks; thus it is contraindicated for persons with immune disorders, such as VODAIS, AIDS, lupus, and multiple sclerosis. However, ring vaccination combined with isolation of vulnerable persons (those who can not take the vaccine) has proven effective on a local basis.

Autoimmune Patients Need to Be Aware of Smallpox Vaccine Risks (http://www.thyroid-info.com/autoimmune/smallpox.htm)

Smallpox Vaccine Includes a Dose of Risk (http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002205.html)

OOC: These are real world links. I am assuming that, until someone RP's the development of a risk-free vaccine, we have only what exists in RL to go by.

Ah. Do you mind if we are allowed a sample of the virus to develop our own way of preventing it? The citizens of DLE will never accept a vaccine that has potentially harmful side-effects and must exclude a certain portion of the populous for any reason.

OOC: It's okay enough, I think. You won't get an arguement out of me about it.

*buries your desk in intelligence reports on the subject, all declassified and over five years old*

Happy now, chief?

*makes note to have the HSI team in Resistancia receive a shipment of smallpox, just to spread it around a bit*

ha ha, nice. can we be serious for a minute?

We are being serious. There are reports, older ones but you can be assured the problem has not left the world. There has been no concerted effort, and fledgeling nations are more likely to ignore the problem then to do anything about it.



A) how do we know nations that have it havent got it under control?


Would you care for more reports, or would you like to do your own junket of discovery? Either will show you, the problem still exists. It is no security breech to say the vaccine Vastiva has against smallpox is part of the standard series given to our military - and we have a manditory conscription.



B) how can we stop it in non-UN nations?
i think it is a bit bold to try to 'eradicate' smallpox. and also, as stated in the previous discussion on this proposal, why just smallpox? why not malaria (sp?) and other life threatening diseases? why should one desease be targeted when there are many others?


You cannot stop it in nations not in the UN, but perhaps the arguement of "We're living longer, you're not, might be something here worth considering" might bring more nations into the UN, mmmm?

As to why "just smallpox" - everything must start somewhere. With one success under our belts, perhaps a later resolution covering more can be attempted.

As to why "just smallpox" - everything must start somewhere. With one success under our belts, perhaps a later resolution covering more can be attempted.
if we leave them to later resolutions, it just means we will get hit over and over again, whilst still being hit by this one. we do it all in one go, or atleast most of them, then there will be less of a burdon and we could set in place things to help to prevent possible future diseases spreadding to large proportions. while we will grant that small pox does exist, and in some nations is a problem, we still believe that the scope is way too narrow. in also aknowledging that there are resolutions based on AIDS and such, maybe we should really make one to target the control and possible erradication of life-threatening diseases and set up a program to deal with future developments of other, currently non-existant life threatening diseases.

As to why "just smallpox" - everything must start somewhere. With one success under our belts, perhaps a later resolution covering more can be attempted.
Attacking just one disease at a time will keep the costs down ensure the focus needed for success.
While we can not say that other infectious disease can be combatted through vaccination, smallpox very clearly can.
It's low hanging fruit: the deadliest disease on the list of major contagions that the NSUN has not yet addressed.

Attacking just one disease at a time will keep the costs down ensure the focus needed for success.
While we can not say that other infectious disease can be combatted through vaccination, smallpox very clearly can.
It's low hanging fruit: the deadliest disease on the list of major contagions that the NSUN has not yet addressed.


Yes, AND WHAT HE SAID! So there!

if we leave them to later resolutions, it just means we will get hit over and over again, whilst still being hit by this one. we do it all in one go, or atleast most of them, then there will be less of a burdon and we could set in place things to help to prevent possible future diseases spreadding to large proportions. while we will grant that small pox does exist, and in some nations is a problem, we still believe that the scope is way too narrow. in also aknowledging that there are resolutions based on AIDS and such, maybe we should really make one to target the control and possible erradication of life-threatening diseases and set up a program to deal with future developments of other, currently non-existant life threatening diseases.
i think you quoted the wrong one, vastiva.

We do not believe so. One success, draw up a wider scope resolution, get it passed, repeal the first, would work. And be enough to "draw first blood" and get the populace used to the idea of vaccines and health checks.

We do not believe so. One success, draw up a wider scope resolution, get it passed, repeal the first, would work. And be enough to "draw first blood" and get the populace used to the idea of vaccines and health checks.
the problem there is that the repeal would be shot down, like most repeals of late are. and also, i dont see how passing a single, wider scoped resolution in the first place wouldn't do the same as your "draw first blood" idea. either way, they would get used to the idea of health checks and vaccines, just that if you do it in one, you dont have to lay out another set of costs to impliment the second.

the problem there is that the repeal would be shot down, like most repeals of late are. and also, i dont see how passing a single, wider scoped resolution in the first place wouldn't do the same as your "draw first blood" idea. either way, they would get used to the idea of health checks and vaccines, just that if you do it in one, you dont have to lay out another set of costs to impliment the second.

We've watched the psychology of what passes and what does not since we got here. Either is possible.

As such, we shall support whatever comes to vote and leave the floor to sort it out.

I think Vastiva is essentially correct: target a single disease that we know we can eliminate, and then move on. A repeal would not be difficult once smallpox is eradicated (my estimate is that a couple of months would be enough - that would be 50 game years or so).

If we expand this, the impact will increase beyond "mild", and the scope of the effort might swell to the point where we have pledged ourselves to eliminate diseases for which there is no known cure or vaccine. That could quickly become a morass.

Would a repeal be difficult? I don't think so - at least if it were the sense of the world community (meaning the NSUN) that the threat had passed. In fact, I've been thinking about ways to spread the immunizations beyond the NSUN (through a sign-up list, for example), in part because I originally envisioned that this resolution would eventually be repealed!

In short, then, I want to keep this attainable, modest, and focussed. That's why it's not "all infectious diseases" or something of that sort.

Some of what's been said in this thread is very true.

But it's my understanding that, in RL, smallpox HAS already been eradicated, and exists only at the CDC in Atlanta, and (possibly) in some other labs in other countries. There has not been a case of smallpox in a very long time, so long that the United States (in RL) stopped vaccinating the population.

To call for all NSUN nations to spend money on vaccinating their populations on some vague threat of bioterrorism is extreme. I am not sure the Free State of Bitewaldi can support this measure.

What's the next disease down on the list? Maybe we could support a motion for that.

Some of what's been said in this thread is very true.

But it's my understanding that, in RL, smallpox HAS already been eradicated, and exists only at the CDC in Atlanta, and (possibly) in some other labs in other countries. There has not been a case of smallpox in a very long time, so long that the United States (in RL) stopped vaccinating the population.

To call for all NSUN nations to spend money on vaccinating their populations on some vague threat of bioterrorism is extreme. I am not sure the Free State of Bitewaldi can support this measure.

What's the next disease down on the list? Maybe we could support a motion for that.Yes, in RL smallpox has been eradicated.

But ... it was eradicated because the WHO - an organization that does not exist in NS - undertook the effort with the backing of the world community - something that has not been organized here in NS.

So, on the theory that NS and RL are parallel worlds, but not identical...

There is no reason to assume that smallpox does not exist (biology is the same here as in RL), while...
There is no reason to assume that the NSUN or any other NGO has mounted a worldwide eradication effort (there's nothing in our past to indicate that we've done this), ergo...
There is every reason to believe that the threat of a worldwide smallpox outbreak still exists here (the disease is real and nobody ever tried to wipe it out).

This proposed resolution is an attempt to reconcile the NS situation with the RL situation, so that we can go forward with the understanding that the only smallpox that exists is in the lab, not in the wild.

In that case, Bitewaldi can endorse this resolution.

I'm going to bring it to the attention of Tiamat Taveril's regional delegate and see if I can gain support there.

I think Vastiva is essentially correct: target a single disease that we know we can eliminate, and then move on. A repeal would not be difficult once smallpox is eradicated (my estimate is that a couple of months would be enough - that would be 50 game years or so).

If we expand this, the impact will increase beyond "mild", and the scope of the effort might swell to the point where we have pledged ourselves to eliminate diseases for which there is no known cure or vaccine. That could quickly become a morass.

Would a repeal be difficult? I don't think so - at least if it were the sense of the world community (meaning the NSUN) that the threat had passed. In fact, I've been thinking about ways to spread the immunizations beyond the NSUN (through a sign-up list, for example), in part because I originally envisioned that this resolution would eventually be repealed!

In short, then, I want to keep this attainable, modest, and focussed. That's why it's not "all infectious diseases" or something of that sort.
It'll be interesting to see if that strategy works.

YGSM will support the proposal.

Some of what's been said in this thread is very true.

But it's my understanding that, in RL, smallpox HAS already been eradicated, and exists only at the CDC in Atlanta, and (possibly) in some other labs in other countries. There has not been a case of smallpox in a very long time, so long that the United States (in RL) stopped vaccinating the population.

To call for all NSUN nations to spend money on vaccinating their populations on some vague threat of bioterrorism is extreme. I am not sure the Free State of Bitewaldi can support this measure.

What's the next disease down on the list? Maybe we could support a motion for that.

*adds "Bitewaldi" to the list of nations to be visited by an HSI team with smallpox samples*

I've read through most of what has been said in this thread regarding the issue at hand.

I believe that there is a point to having some interaction from ther government with regard to getting rid of this disease.

I'll be supporting this issue.

<-Regional Delegate of AEA->

I say start giving shots to prevent small pox again to all the rich , the poor would end up dying anyways.

I say start giving shots to prevent small pox again to all the rich , the poor would end up dying anyways.

Perhaps. But who would clean the chattel from the streets then?

Perhaps. But who would clean the chattel from the streets then?

Rats. Which would then spread the Black Death. Which we haven't vaccinated against ...

Disaster scenarios aside, Ardchoille endorses this proposal whole-heartedly and sends chocolate to Allemande for having the gumption to revive this proposal, the common-sense to keep it modest and the simple good manners to debate it reasonably.

Congratulations Allemande on reaching Quorum. I suspect this will fly through the voting to become UN Resolution # 98.

The Voting public of the United Nations I am certain will vote to eradicate smallpox for the good of all nations.

Yes! This is going to be one on my list of "Entered vote on the first try." And now, I plan to vote in favor of it and try to get Tiamat's regional delegate to do the same.

Congratulations on reaching quorum.

I'm still not sure about this one...

Tonight I'll be online to debate the proposal. Right now, I have to take care of business...

Thanks to everyone for helping this proposal reach quorum!!!

I will accept and I beleive my region the unknown continent will support my decision of supporting this proposal.

This should easily pass. I might not even have to drag out the hammer for this debate.

What Debate? Looks to me that this is a done deal. Virtually every response to this has been a positive one. I dont do exit polls but if i did i would have to say This Resolution is in the bag.

Again Congratulations to the Author.

What Debate? Looks to me that this is a done deal. Virtually every response to this has been a positive one. I dont do exit polls but if i did i would have to say This Resolution is in the bag.

Again Congratulations to the Author.


What? You don't think someone will manage to incorporate the national sovereignty argument into a debate against this resolution? You give "them" far too little credit. :p

What? You don't think someone will manage to incorporate the national sovereignty argument into a debate against this resolution? You give "them" far too little credit. :p

No I believe that to be possible but of no consequence as the general voting UN Members i believe will vote for this 6:1

I am taking bets!

lol.

I'm just waiting for it to begin voting before I bring out all the counter argurments.

What? You don't think someone will manage to incorporate the national sovereignty argument into a debate against this resolution? You give "them" far too little credit. :p

Like he said, what debate? You know that arguement won't fly here.

I dont do exit polls but if i did i would have to say This Resolution is in the bag.

Again Congratulations to the Author.

That's what I said about last November. :(

Has anyone brought up cost yet? Because if we're ignoring that, we might as well draft a "Get Rid of Everything Bad" resolution.

I support the idea of a mass-vaccination program, but I can see one problem - if this resolution passes, then all states will have to destroy any stocks of smallpox immediately, right? In which case, how will vaccines be produced, since AFAIK you need a sample of the target pathogen to produce a vaccine against it?

Also, wouldn't it be prudent to keep a stock of smallpox in a high security lab somewhere? If a non-UN member state decided to be nasty and launch a smallpox attack against another nation in a few generations' time (when smallpox has been eradicated from the wild in UN states and the vaccination program has ended, because there is no further need for a mass vaccination program), then we would have no way of producing more vaccine unless we still had stocks of the pathogen. Also, we couldn't be sure that smallpox had been eradicated absolutely everywhere, and won't crop up again in the future, so we would need to have some way of producing more vaccine.

This resolution doesn't seem to have made provisions for stocking the pathogen in case we need to use it in the future.

Would the resolution allow harmless modified forms of the pathogen to be stored? The pathogen could be modified for use in a vaccine, so that it wasn't the same as the 'wild' strain of the virus. It would depend on whether the resolution needed all strains of the smallpox virus to be destroyed, or if certain strains would be allowed to remain in existence.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/frisbeeteria/modedit.jpg
Title changed and a Temporary sticky made while this is at vote.



The sticky action is a test. Let's see if it keeps all sorts of new threads from popping up.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

There have been some genuine objections raised (and YGSM is apparently to destroy it in a whirlwind of rhetorical brilliance at some later stage), but overall Golgothastan supports this resolution as it provides a practical and workable solution to a major problem on the table. The 'let's wait until we can deal with all diseases' idea seems a little odd...surely then we should just have one Uber-resolution to deal with all of the world's problems in one fell swoop. Action now (that, as pointed out, can be repealed later) would seem to be merit-worthy.

[BTW: Why does nobody spell 'argument' correctly? Is it some secret joke I'm not getting?]

I'm all for the eradication of disease, and ElJefe has already been rid of such scourges. However, I don't feel that this resolution actually does anything, so I'm going to vote no.

i've voted in favor of the motion, but it seems to be a bit limited in scope. why not make a commitment to eradicate ALL disease? why not make an amendment to cure cancer? i mean, what's the limit here?

i've voted in favor of the motion, but it seems to be a bit limited in scope. why not make a commitment to eradicate ALL disease? why not make an amendment to cure cancer? i mean, what's the limit here?

Greetings,

As a new member of the U.N. It was with great pleasure that Valhallenstein voted to support this motion. However lest us not be overzelous in our ambition.

Eradicating disease, while noble in cause, will have a dramatic negative economic impact on well developed nations. Not only will we have to flit the bill for less developed nations, but our health industries are well established economic baramoters for growth and prosperity.

Eliminating all disease would fracture most economies, and Valhallenstein will not support any further drain on our economy by the world body. The implications of natural selection and population control aside, eliminating disease all together is a idealist paradise that cannot be obtained.

Eventually we all must die, and the goal should be to increase comfort and choices within the disease cycle, eliminate where possible, but eradication will only leed to excess populations which will have one less major industry by which to support its self on.

I respect Spoonforkia zeal, but optomism often leads to idealism and there is rarely an ideal situation, eradicating disease is an Ideal my nation believes would be fool hardy venture that consumes far to much time, resources and has alternative negative impacts on the world at large.

Sincerely,

Valhallenstein delegate to the U.N.

This motion has the support, and vote of Manhattan Prime.

President Andrew Cuthbert
The Imperial Colony of Manhattan Prime

Let me preface by saying that Bitewaldi supports this resolution, but must poll the constituent nations that delgated Bitewaldi as their representative.

Having just read the proposal FAQ threads, it appears to me that we are prohibited from creating a NSUN version of the World Health Organization. Is that correct? (just asking).

Eliminating all disease would fracture most economies, and Valhallenstein will not support any further drain on our economy by the world body. The implications of natural selection and population control aside, eliminating disease all together is a idealist paradise that cannot be obtained.

I think you'd better stick to the idealism argument - the idea that curing people might hurt our bank balances is one that sits uncomfortably with the Golgothastani delegation.

I think you'd better stick to the idealism argument - the idea that curing people might hurt our bank balances is one that sits uncomfortably with the Golgothastani delegation.

With all due respect, Valhallenstein will stick to an argument it chooses, at anytime regardless of what Golgothanstani finds uncomfortable or not. Perhaps a more respectful tact in the future will garnish you more creadability for furthering the diolque.

Using a veil to attempt to bully other nations is both cowardly and unwise, I would hope in the future you would use more discretion in your tone and read the argument made, rather then the simplistic conclusion you drew.

Unless you desire a conversation on economics? The point is valid, elimination of Disease eliminates a major economic factor for developing economic nations. The issues should be in the grasp of th UN not some whimsical notion of an ideal situation that wont be achieved, and if attempted, the process would destroy national intrests.

any further suggestion from you as to what Valhallenstein should "stick" to by way of its policy will result in an immediate termination of recognition of your nation, in short, you will be ignored.

*adds "Bitewaldi" to the list of nations to be visited by an HSI team with smallpox samples*
The Democratic Republic of Caelvania is a small nation of extremely limited resources, and we would be much obliged if Vastiva were to also add our country to your list.
We look forward to what promises to be much learned debate of this resolution, and hope to gain wisdom from the discussion.

Twelfth Citizen, U.N. Ambassador

You have my support. I think it is entirely prudent to target specific diseases in U.N. resolutions. Nevertheless, I also believe that it would have been preferable to mention other infectious diseases in your proposal. Here is a site that lists several of them:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/
While it would be unwise to include all of these illnesses in a proposal such as this (It would take away from the specificity of targeting certain diseases.), including three or four other than smallpox would have been nice. As I said in the begining, however, you have my support and my vote.

though I voted in favour of this, it might be of interest to all on the forum that smallpox IS essentially eradicated, and has been for at least a decade - there hasn't been an outbreak in years, and CDC in Atlanta has the only known live cultures of smallpox virus. So, let's work on some other diseases that are much more of a problem at the moment

though I voted in favour of this, it might be of interest to all on the forum that smallpox IS essentially eradicated, and has been for at least a decade - there hasn't been an outbreak in years, and CDC in Atlanta has the only known live cultures of smallpox virus. So, let's work on some other diseases that are much more of a problem at the moment

Read the rest of this thread- This isn't real life, Small pox hasn't been cured in NS yet.

How will this proposal affect my citizen's pockets? Their taxes are high enough as it is.

How will this proposal affect my citizen's pockets? Their taxes are high enough as it is.

Sacrifices must be made to eradicate the problems in our world. Perhaps your country will need to make it's own sacrifices to lower the taxes enough so that the implementation of this Resolution won't raise your citizens taxes. Cut funding in areas that don't require as much funding.

This is going to be rather blunt, but if a nation constantly worries about tax rates, UN membership may not be the best way to go. Just about any resolution passed here (and we pass a lot of resolutions) is going to cause a tax increase. Maybe it'd help if you call it a "revenue enhancer".

I support the idea of a mass-vaccination program, but I can see one problem - if this resolution passes, then all states will have to destroy any stocks of smallpox immediately, right? In which case, how will vaccines be produced, since AFAIK you need a sample of the target pathogen to produce a vaccine against it?

Simple: Produce the vaccine, then destroy. Just don't be surprised if a few of us manage to get ahold of stockpiles later on. After all, not all nations are in the UN and I never know what I can do with a virus to help later.

Also, wouldn't it be prudent to keep a stock of smallpox in a high security lab somewhere? If a non-UN member state decided to be nasty and launch a smallpox attack against another nation in a few generations' time (when smallpox has been eradicated from the wild in UN states and the vaccination program has ended, because there is no further need for a mass vaccination program), then we would have no way of producing more vaccine unless we still had stocks of the pathogen. Also, we couldn't be sure that smallpox had been eradicated absolutely everywhere, and won't crop up again in the future, so we would need to have some way of producing more vaccine.

Unless this is repealed, you will still be vaccinating your citizens then. If anyone were to launch an attack with it, they'd combine it with some other virus, such as HIV or Ebola, to make it stronger anyway. As it stands, it's not that effective of a weapon against those with good containment protocols.

This resolution doesn't seem to have made provisions for stocking the pathogen in case we need to use it in the future.

Get stocks from nonmember nations. I know Sarkarasa will have some when I need it.

Would the resolution allow harmless modified forms of the pathogen to be stored? The pathogen could be modified for use in a vaccine, so that it wasn't the same as the 'wild' strain of the virus. It would depend on whether the resolution needed all strains of the smallpox virus to be destroyed, or if certain strains would be allowed to remain in existence.

Pretty much, no.

You can never completely distroy a virus. Vacenes use the virus to help the body create an imunity to the diseese. And if you got rid of vacinations, and some terrorist came along and contaminated a city with smallpox, how would you save your populations. Vote against this resolution that will put us in the hands of terrorists!

You can never completely distroy a virus. Vacenes use the virus to help the body create an imunity to the diseese. And if you got rid of vacinations, and some terrorist came along and contaminated a city with smallpox, how would you save your populations. Vote against this resolution that will put us in the hands of terrorists!

If you keep up on UN law, you would realize that the vaccinations don't stop until this resolution is repealed.

DemonLordEnigma: To defend my regionmate Orlia, I'd like to state that the Resolution does not explicity say that smallpox should be kept in labs so that a vaccine can be maintained, which I think is a valid point. This I think is the sticking point for the majority of the region (who have so far voted it down).

DemonLordEnigma: To defend my regionmate Orlia, I'd like to state that the Resolution does not explicity say that smallpox should be kept in labs so that a vaccine can be maintained, which I think is a valid point. This I think is the sticking point for the majority of the region (who have so far voted it down).

And the various medical resolutions don't mention anything about having to allow patients to breathe. It is a point, but one easily dealt with by looking outside the UN.

And the various medical resolutions don't mention anything about having to allow patients to breathe. It is a point, but one easily dealt with by looking outside the UN.

Well, I pointed that out to them. Let's see how it goes.

The Golgothastani delegation apologises for offence caused: we merely meant that your medical argument made a lot more sense than your economic one. We did not mean to impose opinions or act in any way aggressively - we respect the rights of all nations to express their own opinions.

As it is, this looks a cert - thankfully most nations seem to understand the vaccination better than Orlia. To play Devil's Advocate...where does this leave us with potential mutant strains? Or is that not necessary to be considered?

The Golgothastani delegation apologises for offence caused: we merely meant that your medical argument made a lot more sense than your economic one. We did not mean to impose opinions or act in any way aggressively - we respect the rights of all nations to express their own opinions.

As it is, this looks a cert - thankfully most nations seem to understand the vaccination better than Orlia. To play Devil's Advocate...where does this leave us with potential mutant strains? Or is that not necessary to be considered?

We find it depends on the virus. If it is one of the supermutagens, like HIV, then vaccinations are not even worth the effort. If it were of the regular mutagens, like the flu, you have to vaccinate against each strain. If just a normal virus mutation, then the vaccination may be enough to allow the body to adapt and may require a new vaccine.

DECLARES ACCORDINGLY that all Member nations shall make a concerted effort to eradicate smallpox within their territory through the use of established disease eradication techniques, such as quarantine and vaccination, AND

FURTHER CALLS UPON all Member nations to increase health care spending accordingly to cover the costs of these measures, AND

ALSO FINALLY RECOMMENDS that all Member nations provide other Member nations a share of this additional spending, in a fashion entirely at their discretion, as long as such assistance would not be detrimental to their own eradication efforts, for the purpose of accelerating the pace at which this disease can be wiped out worldwide.

These are certainly sentiments that the Confederated City States of Mikitivity can agree to, and we'll be happy to provide the UN additional spice melange earmarked for this cause.

Lord Evif rises and raises two fingers.
The TALLY CLERK. The representative from [redacted]?
Mr. EVIF. Aye.
The TALLY CLERK. [redacted]'s vote for Eradicate Smallpox has been noted.

IMPORTANT
One guy brought up a good point asking if there is a safe vaccine. The truth is, to create a vaccine, you need a sample of the disease. So, to have a vaccine, there needs to be smallpox sample somewhere. We need the vaccine in case of terrorists or crazy rogue nations that can use that (but I'm not sure they can do this on nationstates). Eliminating smallpox makes us completely helpless. I'm against it.

IMPORTANT
One guy brought up a good point asking if there is a safe vaccine. The truth is, to create a vaccine, you need a sample of the disease. So, to have a vaccine, there needs to be smallpox sample somewhere. We need the vaccine in case of terrorists or crazy rogue nations that can use that (but I'm not sure they can do this on nationstates). Eliminating smallpox makes us completely helpless. I'm against it.

While this is a good point, the text of the resolution is to protect populations from smallpox and doesn't prohibit a medical facility maintaining a very small amount of the smallpox virus for just the reason you've suggested.

This does raise an interesting idea ... how many of our nations have their own Center's for Diease Control? And how many of these centers could be combined? (Idea for a UN resolution ... you decide?) ;)

Um, I believe smallpox has already been eliminated except for a few virii left in laboratories, making this resolution rather irrelevent.

Unless it is to eliminate those in the laboratories, which I would be against eliminating, because the risk of escape is minimal, and the risk of the outbreak being hard to contain is even lower, and any research is good research.

http://kidshealth.org/teen/infections/bacterial_viral/smallpox.html

nevermind, apparently smallpox is still a problem in NS. Out of curiousity, when and how was it decided that NS would have a smallpox problem?

This does raise an interesting idea ... how many of our nations have their own Center's for Diease Control? And how many of these centers could be combined? (Idea for a UN resolution ... you decide?) ;)

Actually, we have several, the largest of which amounts to a small city. The one in charge of dealing with Smallpox and similar diseases happens to be in our territory on Earth, due mainly to the ease by which samples can be procurred. Yes, the facility does massive amounts of genetic engineering of viruses in our continuing attempts to find a way to fight HIV on its own level, but that is not its only function. If we wish to combine facilities, that one has plenty of data and experts on viral DNA it can provide.

Um, I believe smallpox has already been eliminated except for a few virii left in laboratories, making this resolution rather irrelevent.

Unless it is to eliminate those in the laboratories, which I would be against eliminating, because the risk of escape is minimal, and the risk of the outbreak being hard to contain is even lower, and any research is good research.

http://kidshealth.org/teen/infectio...l/smallpox.html

This is NS, not reality. There is a very good chance that Smallpox is still quite rampant in NS. I've had yet to see a report of a case in my nation, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem to others.

IMPORTANT
One guy brought up a good point asking if there is a safe vaccine. The truth is, to create a vaccine, you need a sample of the disease. So, to have a vaccine, there needs to be smallpox sample somewhere. We need the vaccine in case of terrorists or crazy rogue nations that can use that (but I'm not sure they can do this on nationstates). Eliminating smallpox makes us completely helpless. I'm against it.

A fair point, but it lends to the slippery slope that growing economic nations like Valhallenstein fear. The U.N. has again made a small positive step forward, there is no doubt the resolution will pass, but the more and more conversations that are had the more potential problems and issues arise.

I have no desire for rogue nations to obtain harmful and lethal weapons, but dosent this support the theory of maintaining adequate healthcare systems to supplement care for citizens? What if we eliminate Small pox and some rogue nation does get it and uses it as a weapon?

Which ambitous liberal nation will be proposing member states pay for the clean up? Again, its noble to erraticate harmful diseases but one must look at the large scale implications of all angles of the issue. I respectfully submit that The Eonic Rebellion delegate makes valid point, one that has far reaching social and economic ramifications and makes one consider the viability, and logic behind voting for the resolution as worded.

In Valhallenstein our economy is robust, our health sector flurishing, our citizens enjoy marvelous health care, and should a disease like this claim thier lives, we have made appropriations to make thier ends as comfortable as possible. An industry has been built around this, and in Valhallenstein I am begining to see the grass roots of loby of health care professionals concerned about unilateral action by the U.N to remove thier livelyhoods.

Again, not everything is black and white, this proposal should be considered carefully by any nation whom is reliant on its economy to survive.

While this may be a valid point, not many nations have admitted to having smallpox be a problem. Probably other things out there that require our attention, rather than as far as I know, nonnexistent infection.

What tipped our vote was the specificity of the resolution and lack of it in carrying out the resolution. While the intent is good, a good resolution would be vague and overbroad enough to compensate for the different needs of each nation, but specific enough to be fair to all nations and to make sure that the intent of the resolution is carried out.

The Federation of Commonwealth Republics does not believe that the resolution balances this accordingly. For a small nation with limited resources in tax revenue, telling them how to spend their money can be suicide for that nation and prevent them from spending money on other much needed items. Additionally, smallpox is not yet a threat, and a resolution was ALREADY passed stating that the U.N. will work towards erradicating harmful pathogens and combating terrorist activities, two points the resolution tries to address. Also, the topic is extremely specific when it can be broad to encompass all pathogens that can be used in terrorist activities. Resolutions, much like constitutions should be made to last, anything else can be handled administratively and not by legislation.

Therefore, states of the Commonwealth respectfully request that every nation vote NO, in light of the aforementioned reasons although the Federation recognizes the good Good intent, we also realize that things like this could be handled more appropriately.

isnt smallpox eradicated everywhere except the third world countries that no one knows about yet???

While this may be a valid point, not many nations have admitted to having smallpox be a problem. Probably other things out there that require our attention, rather than as far as I know, nonnexistent infection.

Not many nations in NS have admitted AIDS is a problem either. Does that mean it's not?

isnt smallpox eradicated everywhere except the third world countries that no one knows about yet???

That's reality. This is NS. remember the difference.

Additionally, smallpox is not yet a threat, and a resolution was ALREADY passed stating that the U.N. will work towards erradicating harmful pathogens and combating terrorist activities, two points the resolution tries to address.

We have little information about whether or not Smallpox is a threat in NS, how many cases there are, or even how widespread the disease is. I know I have several stockpiles of samples of it. Until we have an idea of how widespread, arguing it is not a threat has no basis on current data. A lack of information doesn't equate a lack of problem.

And while those other two are interesting, keep in mind NS has passed resolutions dealing with HIV before. While searching for methods is nice, using specific methods that work is better.

IMPORTANT
One guy brought up a good point asking if there is a safe vaccine. The truth is, to create a vaccine, you need a sample of the disease. So, to have a vaccine, there needs to be smallpox sample somewhere. We need the vaccine in case of terrorists or crazy rogue nations that can use that (but I'm not sure they can do this on nationstates). Eliminating smallpox makes us completely helpless. I'm against it.

Actually, the vaccine for small pox can be derived from a much more mild cousin called "cowpox". The inventor of this vaccine (I don't remember who at the moment) actually tested it on himself my innoculating himself, then exposing himself to smallpox.

Actually, the vaccine for small pox can be derived from a much more mild cousin called "cowpox". The inventor of this vaccine (I don't remember who at the moment) actually tested it on himself my innoculating himself, then exposing himself to smallpox.

We must question the wisdom of using that version. For one thing, we have heard suggestions it isn't entirely reliable. For another, we have heard suggestions the disease itself may actually be safer compared to that vaccination. While having no valid backing, those are enough to make the average DLE citizen shy away from vaccination. They cannot be risked.

Um, I believe smallpox has already been eliminated except for a few virii left in laboratories, making this resolution rather irrelevent.

nevermind, apparently smallpox is still a problem in NS. Out of curiousity, when and how was it decided that NS would have a smallpox problem?

OOC: Nations states is a fantasy game, so the minute 151 UN Delegates approved this resolution, it became real enough for us to debate.

What I'd suggest doing is for somebody to set up a poll in the "NationStates" forum asking if your country has smallpox or not. Then to place a link in this debate. Allow the poll to go on unlimited, but in a day or two bring the results back here. If enough countries still have smallpox, then there obviously may be a need in NationStates. If nobody does, then you'll have your answer. :)

For the record, I voted in favour just assuming that of those 151 UN Delegates, that enough of them figured there may be a few countries that still have smallpox.

Your question is fair, but so is the possibility that smallpox might exist in our fantasy game. Conducting the poll is a great way to get noticed and well respected. :)

While it certainly is a lofty and well-meaning goal to eradicate small pox, the sovereign country of Channapolis shall abstain from voting on this resolution until the following concerns are addressed properly. Channapolis implores all nations, member and nonmember alike, to stand in skeptical opposition of this resolution. This resolution should not, and shall not, be passed until these major concerns are answered.

Channapolis's major concerns revolves around the objectives of the resolution, and the lack of means to accomplish those objectives.

Description: RECOGNIZING that the United Nations has already acted to limit the spread of contagious disease through such efforts as United Nations Resolutions #9 ("Keep the World Disease Free") and #84 ("NS HIV AIDS Act"), AND

ACKNOWLEDGING that such acts are justified given the difficulty of containing epidemics, even in the face of prophylactic measures such as those authorized by United Nations Resolutions #34 ("No Embargoes on Medicine") and #43 ("Increased Access to Medicine") (among others), AND

OBSERVING that highly virulent diseases are the best source of potential templates for so-called "bioweapons" - weapons whose development and use the United Nations has attempted to limit through such acts as United Nations Resolution #17 ("Elimination of Bio Weapons"), AND FINALLY

REALIZING that no concerted effort has yet been mounted to address one of the world's oldest and deadliest contagions - variola (commonly known as "smallpox") - a disease of considerable danger in its natural form and even greater danger as a bioweapon,

THE UNITED NATIONS

DECLARES ACCORDINGLY that all Member nations shall make a concerted effort to eradicate smallpox within their territory through the use of established disease eradication techniques, such as quarantine and vaccination, AND

FURTHER CALLS UPON all Member nations to increase health care spending accordingly to cover the costs of these measures, AND

ALSO FINALLY RECOMMENDS that all Member nations provide other Member nations a share of this additional spending, in a fashion entirely at their discretion, as long as such assistance would not be detrimental to their own eradication efforts, for the purpose of accelerating the pace at which this disease can be wiped out worldwide.

As all of you can see, the resolution calls for all member nations to eradicate small pox and increase healthcare spending. However, not all members possess the technological capabilities, monentary resources, or organizational power to fully implement all necessary measures to combat this disease.

Many developing countries are still struggling to establish a stable economy; it would be obsene and unreasonable to call on these same countries to combat small pox, a disease deadly enough and evasive enough to require this amount of world attention. It would require millions upon millions of dollars for one country to fully eradicate the disease, millions that we developing countries do not have. The last paragraph "recommends" member nations to share the burden of the spending, but recommendations do not lead to checks. If this disease is to be eradicated, there needs to be more then just empty promises of financial aid. There needs to be a guarentee of financial accountability.

These same developing countries may not have the ability to develop a safe vaccine to combat the small pox virus. The resolution calls for each country to "eradicate smallpox within their territory through the use of established disease eradication techniques." But the resolution specifies neither how each country is to acquire the technical and scientific capabilities to develop effective vaccines nor how a country is to organize effective quarantines if it does not have the capability to.

Let us not forget that small pox is most dangerous and deadly in Third World countries, where the money and capability to even feed its citizens is lacking. The fate of small pox lies in these countries, and any effort the First World countries attempt at destroying small pox will be ultimately useless unless it is also destroyed in the ghettos of the Third World Countries as well.

In order for this resolution to pass, Channapolis calls on the United Nations to amend the resolution to include the following:

The establishment of a central organization
for the sole purpose of fighting and eliminating small pox.
a. This organization shall be staffed and funded by all member nations, with no exceptions. In order for this organization to have proper weight, it shall be mandatory for all nations to participate.
b. This organization will have the power to traverse across the all borders of all member nations, with no exceptions, and have the power to draw aid that it requires from any nation. This includes, but is not limited to, military assistance, technological assistance, vaccine production, and financial aid.
c. Funding for this organization shall be collected from all countries based on each country's GDP. The funds shall be placed under the control of the United Nations, and both the United Nations the organization shall have an equal say in the distribution of said resources.

Only through one effective organization can the world hope to achieve the eradication of small pox. Without an effective organization to direct the eradication of the disease, the individual efforts of each nation will be null and void.

If the following amendments are not added to the resolution, Channapolis calls on all nations to unite and vote against this resolution. This resolution shall not pass on the whim of the top 20 nations, while some 30,000 other nations suffer the burdens and consequences.

*the ambassador from Mikitivity rises to the floor*

On the subject of the resolutions goal of eradicating smallpox from all nations, the honored ambassador from Channapolis pointed out that this goal is an extremely difficult burden for this body to place on developing nations. And frankly, my government agrees. However, after having carefully reviewed the resolution, the Mikitivity International Affairs Office, concluded that this resolution actually included a provision to address the concern that Channapolis and others have politely expressed.

Namely the resolution states, "that all Member nations provide other Member nations a share of this additional spending, in a fashion entirely at their discretion, as long as such assistance would not be detrimental to their own eradication efforts, for the purpose of accelerating the pace at which this disease can be wiped out worldwide."

My office immediately concluded that this activating clause implied that nations that have the resources to combat smallpox (like Confederated City States of Mikitivity does) be prepared to help out our neighbors.

The ambassador from Channapolis then suggested that the UN centralize and coordinate these efforts by creating an organization (or committee) that is funded by UN members, and an organization in which all our governments should participate in. Though our forum rules prevent amendments, I wanted to suggest that I believe much of this suggestion can be assumed to be the case. Since the resolution does not say otherwise, I would suggest that if this resolution passes that we simply ask the UN Secretariat (like the UN Gnomes) to see to it that such a body be taken care of and funded by the UN.

isnt smallpox eradicated everywhere except the third world countries that no one knows about yet???

...

We're not talking RL here. We're talking NS, where Smallpox has probably been used as a weapon before, thus spreading it around.

IC: Though the Queendom is free of this vial decease, we do support destroying it once and for all. Therefor, we have voted in favor of this resolution. We also offer that we create some of the vaccines to help along with this.

What? You don't think someone will manage to incorporate the national sovereignty argument into a debate against this resolution? You give "them" far too little credit. :pAhem. Allemande supports the concept of national sovereignty. That's why we addressed that in the text - justifying the prevention of epidemics by asserting that disease knows no borders.

In the "Federalist" view of the N.S.U.N., this is exactly the sort of thing an international body should be doing.

Has anyone brought up cost yet? Because if we're ignoring that, we might as well draft a "Get Rid of Everything Bad" resolution.I would expect the cost to be relatively low, but that's one thing that's hard to estimate. I set the impact at "mild", which helps.

Historically, the cost was modest.

I support the idea of a mass-vaccination program, but I can see one problem - if this resolution passes, then all states will have to destroy any stocks of smallpox immediately, right? In which case, how will vaccines be produced, since AFAIK you need a sample of the target pathogen to produce a vaccine against it?I don't think that destruction of stocks would be necessary precisely because vaccination would have to continue. Otherwise the resolution would be internally inconsistent.

If a non-UN member state decided to be nasty and launch a smallpox attack against another nation in a few generations' time (when smallpox has been eradicated from the wild in UN states and the vaccination program has ended, because there is no further need for a mass vaccination program), then we would have no way of producing more vaccine unless we still had stocks of the pathogen. Also, we couldn't be sure that smallpox had been eradicated absolutely everywhere, and won't crop up again in the future, so we would need to have some way of producing more vaccine.This assumes that the program will end. Ending it, however, would require a repeal, so as long as we don't repeal, we just go on vaccinating our kids in perpetuity.

Which goes back to the need to have lab samples of the vaccine. I believe that need is implicit in the resolution.

i've voted in favor of the motion, but it seems to be a bit limited in scope. why not make a commitment to eradicate ALL disease? why not make an amendment to cure cancer? i mean, what's the limit here?Easy. We wanted to keep the scope limited for several reasons: The objective can be accomplished. The vaccine exists and works, the cost is small, and the likelihood of success is high.
Limiting the scope to one disease keeps the cost down ("Eradicate ALL Disease" would hardly be "mild").
Of all the diseases we know how to eradicate, this is by far the most dangerous.

Let me preface by saying that Bitewaldi supports this resolution, but must poll the constituent nations that delgated Bitewaldi as their representative.

Having just read the proposal FAQ threads, it appears to me that we are prohibited from creating a NSUN version of the World Health Organization. Is that correct? (just asking).I thought one existed? I'll have to look it up...

How will this proposal affect my citizen's pockets? Their taxes are high enough as it is.Check the NSUN rules on "mild" proposals. I believe that if your rate is over 50%, there's no impact at all.

Allemande (the author) is also concerned about taxes (we're democratic centrists), which is another reason why we went after the low-hanging fruit of the single most dangerous disease we knew we could get rid of.

You can never completely distroy a virus. Vacenes use the virus to help the body create an imunity to the diseese. And if you got rid of vacinations, and some terrorist came along and contaminated a city with smallpox, how would you save your populations. Vote against this resolution that will put us in the hands of terrorists!If your population isn't immunized, you will not be able to immunize fast enough to blunt a terrorist attack. The only way to eliminate the problem is to vaccinate in advance.

Orlia, this proposal was designed to take smallpox off the table as a terrorist weapon, at least as far as NSUN members are concerned. Once you're vaccinated, what do you have to fear from smallpox?

a few points from Wurd:
1) on the subject of funding - The resources required by this project will only be required until the eratication of the virus is complete. At that point very little, if any, funding will be required on the part of the NSUN member nations. Hence, the tax burdens for each nation's citizens should be temporary in any event.
2) on the subject of project scope - For the question of "why only smallpox?" Wurd believes that combatting these illnesses one at a time is infinitely better than beginning an operation against all illnesses that currently exist. For instance, if we want to eradicate disease completely, why not create a vaccine for the common cold as part of this bill? This question is, of course, rhetorical. Including the ideas mentioned just above, by focusing one one illness at a time, the NSUN member nations will not be required to employ an oversized amount of their resources for this project.

Wurd does have one issue with this resolution currently. If, as some members have suggested, our research finds that the vaccine for smallpox cannot be acquired due to the virus mutating, or any other complications, will the project continue indefinitely? Regarding our first point, on the subject of funding, this would put a permanent strain on many nations that would prefer to use their funds on their own self-improvements than on a project that will continue indefinitely. Therefore, Wurd suggests an amendment by which this resolution will be constrained by a time limit agreeable to the majority of NSUN member nations.

And the various medical resolutions don't mention anything about having to allow patients to breathe. It is a point, but one easily dealt with by looking outside the UN.I take a simpler view: KISS.

A law should never be read in such a way as to be self-defeating. If you're reading it that way, you have too many attorneys.

Since the resolution effectively requires you to have a vaccination program in place for as long as the resolution remains in force, then by inference it requires that you have everything you need to maintain that program. If that means lab samples of the virus, then that's what it requires.

To read the resolution in such a way as to assume it to be self-defeating is sophistry. For crying out loud, Allemande has clauses in its Constitution with fewer words...

Out of curiousity, when and how was it decided that NS would have a smallpox problem?By inference.

In RL, this was exactly what had to happen to get rid of variola. The vaccine was invented in the 18th Century based on a technique known to the Turks centuries earlier, and yet - 200 years later - the disease was still a major threat to world health.

Thus, the world community - through the auspices of the WHO, moved to eradicate the disease.

Since we've never moved to get rid of smallpox on a global level, the assumption (a safe one, I believe), is that we're in the same boat the RL world community was in pre-1960.

This resolution "synchs" NS and RL w/re to smallpox. Well, actually, it does us one better, because the WHO vaccinations stopped in the late 1970's whereas there's nothing in this resolution that would require or even permit us to stop (short of repeal, and we can discuss that in a few game months [or about 50 game years...]).

As the UN Delegate for the Militaristic Legions and Plans and as the unofficial UN delegate for the Moral Alliance, we view this proposal as tantamount to an unfunded mandate. It demands that we "increase health care spending accordingly" to fight this disease.

I believe I can speak on behalf of cash-strapped governments worldwide that this proposal will unduly strain some of the very nations we intend on saving.

While I certainly understand the desire to rid the world of this dangerous disease, I must emphasize that no nation, especially the poorer nations of our United Nations, should be asked to swallow the price tag on a disease that may not even exist in their nation.

Furthermore, the powers of Smallpox can be used for world peace. Weaponizing this deadly disease can discourage rogue regimes and malvolent governments from taking hostile actions.

For the above reasons, the Delegate from Sidestreamer hereby urges this body to defeat this well-intended but ill-concieved resolution, send it back to the committee and re-create it in a manner that does not leave us with an unfunded mandate and restriction on national defense.

Welsh - Ambassador to the UN from the Empire of Sidestreamer, and Delegate from the Militaristic Legions and Plans

But it's my understanding that, in RL, smallpox HAS already been eradicated, and exists only at the CDC in Atlanta, and (possibly) in some other labs in other countries. There has not been a case of smallpox in a very long time, so long that the United States (in RL) stopped vaccinating the population.

The RL official status of smallpox is indeed "eradicated". There are, however, occasional reports of reccurences. There was, IIRC, a bit of an outbreak a while back in central Africa. Probably those Atlantans making sure there samples aren't dying out.

What's the next disease down on the list? Maybe we could support a motion for that.

How about bigotry? Although attempts to vaccinate against Bigotus biggus have thus far been unsuccessful, we can quarantine them (give them their own country?) and give them birth control.

The eradication/suppression on the smallpox desiese is actually a good idea but two probems that i cant figure out the solution to.
1) all of the non UN contries (i think this questin has been debated for quite some time but i added it anyway)
2) you said that the effects of the vaccine lasted a lifetime, what does then hapen when the first vaccined generation dies?

Resistancia still stands by its stance opposing this based on the narrowness of the subject. why should we focus on just one desease? if you set things in place to help tackle a wide variety of deadly deseases, it would be much better, because not only are you trying to eradicate or limit life-threatening deseases, but also you cut through the beurocracy of dealing with other deseases in future proposals. while this is noble in its cause, to us it is way to limiting.

Forgive me if someone has already brought this point to the table, but isn't this misclassified? It should be a "social justice" proposal instead of a human rights one, shouldn't it?

Yes, in RL smallpox has been eradicated.

But ... it was eradicated because the WHO - an organization that does not exist in NS - undertook the effort with the backing of the world community - something that has not been organized here in NS.

So, on the theory that NS and RL are parallel worlds, but not identical...

There is no reason to assume that smallpox does not exist (biology is the same here as in RL), while...
There is no reason to assume that the NSUN or any other NGO has mounted a worldwide eradication effort (there's nothing in our past to indicate that we've done this), ergo...
There is every reason to believe that the threat of a worldwide smallpox outbreak still exists here (the disease is real and nobody ever tried to wipe it out).

This proposed resolution is an attempt to reconcile the NS situation with the RL situation, so that we can go forward with the understanding that the only smallpox that exists is in the lab, not in the wild.


So, instead of the UN dictating every little piece of my country's daily lives and overburdening my economy with tax after tax (This money doesn't just come out of THIN AIR, you know) Perhaps we could establish a World Health Organization to deal with some of these issues and allow countries to make their own decisions. This compulsory taxation and dumping of all of my resources into making someone else better is getting excessive! We cannot make a law for every single situation in every single country's life.

we have now re-read through the arguments, and are still against it. we noted that many nations raised the concern of costs, only to be told very little, because of the time frame. we wholy disagree with this, in that while it may end up being eradicated in the NSUN, it could still exist in non-NSUN countries. also, it has been noted that some viruses and deseases do mutate with changing conditions, and there is nothing to stop small pox mutating, thus people would have to be re-vaccinated, thus costing more. again, with our argument with the narrowness, each resolution dedicated to a desease would cost money each time, where as in one go to set up something, even something like the RL WHO, we wouldnt have to foot the cost over and over and over again.

Thank you, great leader of Resistancia. I am glad we are on the same page. The UN needs to start making broader legislation and let the nations govern themselves. Just because everyone wants their own legislation just to get their name on the books is no reason for the rest of us to be taxed into oblivion.

So, instead of the UN dictating every little piece of my country's daily lives and overburdening my economy with tax after tax (This money doesn't just come out of THIN AIR, you know) Perhaps we could establish a World Health Organization to deal with some of these issues and allow countries to make their own decisions. This compulsory taxation and dumping of all of my resources into making someone else better is getting excessive! We cannot make a law for every single situation in every single country's life.

Actually, we can make a law for every single situation in every single country's life. That is, if the mods would ever allow a zombie proposal to hit the floor. The only thing stopping us from doing so is a few rules about silly resolutions, and that can be dealt with by pointing out cases where they have happened that backs it being serious.

The problem with creating a WHO is the fact we can't without changing it. A WHO is, in essense, a mini-UN, and thus illegal. And if Hack's rules pass, we probably will never be allowed to create one without effectively limiting it.

The problem with broad attempts at legislation like a WHO is the fact they cannot handle everything. The UN has 20% more diseases than the real Earth does spread across a vastly larger population. Not only do you have the normal natural diseases, you have engineered diseases, magical diseases, diseases that defy classification (Sarkarasetan Vampiric Virus, certain zombie viruses such as the T Virus, etc), and even probably a few sentient diseases. They have to separate which are viruses, which are magical curses, which are results of chemicals, which are results of just bad genetics, etc. until they end up with more categories to deal with than their staff can handle. And they get the lovely job of trying to find cures to viruses that use HIV as a punching bag.

Thank you, great leader of Resistancia. I am glad we are on the same page. The UN needs to start making broader legislation and let the nations govern themselves. Just because everyone wants their own legislation just to get their name on the books is no reason for the rest of us to be taxed into oblivion.

We made broader legislation originally. It apparently didn't help.

this should not have even passed the proposal stage.
it should be an individual decision.

Here's my question for you.

In this proposal you state that:

THE UNITED NATIONS

DECLARES ACCORDINGLY that all Member nations shall make a concerted effort to eradicate smallpox within their territory through the use of established disease eradication techniques, such as quarantine and vaccination, AND

FURTHER CALLS UPON all Member nations to increase health care spending accordingly to cover the costs of these measures, AND

ALSO FINALLY RECOMMENDS that all Member nations provide other Member nations a share of this additional spending, in a fashion entirely at their discretion, as long as such assistance would not be detrimental to their own eradication efforts, for the purpose of accelerating the pace at which this disease can be wiped out worldwide.

How can you ask that I, as a sovereign nation, increase my spending on healthcare? Yes...part of the UN "terms of membership" entail that my nation abide by all proposals passed and enforced by this ruling body...but at what point do you cease to exist solely as a global governing body and begin to exist as another entity which dictates to individual nations how to spend their money?

I don't disagree with the proposal insomuch that we need to eradicate diseases which can easily spread to pandemic scales...but I do disagree with your funding strategy. Do not tell me how to spend my budgeted monies. I will work with established vaccination and quarantine protocols, but I will be damned if someone else half-way around the world from my little nation will tell me how to work my budget!

Weaponizing this deadly disease can discourage rogue regimes and malvolent governments from taking hostile actions.That would be a violation of the NSUN ban on biological weapons.

For the above reasons, the Delegate from Sidestreamer hereby urges this body to defeat this well-intended but ill-concieved resolution, send it back to the committee and re-create it in a manner that does not leave us with an unfunded mandate and restriction on national defense.If you think about it for a minute, there is literally no way for any NSUN resolution to be anything but an unfunded mandate. The NSUN has no taxing authority - only its Members do. All the NSUN can ever do is order Members to act in a certain way - or refrain from acting in a certain way - and pass the costs down to those same Members.

But keep in mind, w/re to this proposal, that Members may ask other Members for assistance, and Members are "urged" to provide it. Through this mechanism, richer nations will help poorer nations meet the mandate.

This resolution, although well ment, is obviously not well thought out.
A) It infringes on our right, as a soverign nation, to allocate our spending as we wish.

B) It is too vague. It does not put a limit on anything. So, all the government has to do to fufill this proposal, if it does pass, is to put one additional ((dollar)) into the fund.

The eradication/suppression on the smallpox desiese is actually a good idea but two probems that i cant figure out the solution to.
1) all of the non UN contries (i think this questin has been debated for quite some time but i added it anyway)
2) you said that the effects of the vaccine lasted a lifetime, what does then hapen when the first vaccined generation dies? I am working on a way for non-members to immunize (through RP), but obviously this is optional. There are, however, good reasons why they should, especially once the NSUN states take the lead.
As long as the resolution remains in force, each new generation will be vaccinated.

Resistancia still stands by its stance opposing this based on the narrowness of the subject. why should we focus on just one desease? if you set things in place to help tackle a wide variety of deadly deseases, it would be much better, because not only are you trying to eradicate or limit life-threatening deseases, but also you cut through the beurocracy of dealing with other deseases in future proposals. while this is noble in its cause, to us it is way to limiting. If you choose a wider scope, you will likely never achieve your goal. IT professionals call this "scope creep": the job just keeps growing to suck up whatever resources are available without ever nearing completion, because the task itself has become open-ended.
If you don't specifically mention smallpox, you can't be sure that it's been eradicated. Maybe your NSWHO spend its money this year on malaria, or on AIDS, or on some other disease, which means...
Any nation that RP's will be vulnerable to a smallpox attack by a rogue nation that chooses to deliver one. Why? Because if someone hits you with a virus and you say, "sorry, I'm immunized", that's godmoding. The only way to avoid godmoding is to publically immunize in advance. This proposal represents a way for all NSUN members to do that in one fell swoop, and have it paid for in that same action.
The foregoing is true even if we set up an agency to tackle "all communicable diseases" or "all dangerous diseases" because the list is too long for the job to be completed, and the rogue can always challenge the world by asking, "How do you know the NSWHO has already handled smallpox? Maybe they've been tackling other things," per my earlier point.
Funding an NSWHO is not a modest undertaking; it could not possibly be considered a proposal with a "mild" impact. All the arguments raised by poor nations here would then be manifest is spades, because if they can't afford to immunize against variola, they sure as H_ll can't afford to fund a NSWHO - and the cost can not be borne only by "the richest Members", because the NSUN rules do not permit that sort of thing. The NSUN works exactly this way: the NSUN issues a mandate, and Members implement that mandate - absorbing the cost along the way. Like it or not, there is not other mechanism in the rules for the NSUN to get things done.

Forgive me if someone has already brought this point to the table, but isn't this misclassified? It should be a "social justice" proposal instead of a human rights one, shouldn't it?We debated this at length during the drafting process. I was told that "human rights" was the correct category by one of the NSUN moderators. My original classification was that it was an "environmental" issue, which I thought made still more sense.

Actually, we can make a law for every single situation in every single country's life. That is, if the mods would ever allow a zombie proposal to hit the floor. The only thing stopping us from doing so is a few rules about silly resolutions, and that can be dealt with by pointing out cases where they have happened that backs it being serious.

The problem with creating a WHO is the fact we can't without changing it. A WHO is, in essense, a mini-UN, and thus illegal. And if Hack's rules pass, we probably will never be allowed to create one without effectively limiting it.

The problem with broad attempts at legislation like a WHO is the fact they cannot handle everything. The UN has 20% more diseases than the real Earth does spread across a vastly larger population. Not only do you have the normal natural diseases, you have engineered diseases, magical diseases, diseases that defy classification (Sarkarasetan Vampiric Virus, certain zombie viruses such as the T Virus, etc), and even probably a few sentient diseases. They have to separate which are viruses, which are magical curses, which are results of chemicals, which are results of just bad genetics, etc. until they end up with more categories to deal with than their staff can handle. And they get the lovely job of trying to find cures to viruses that use HIV as a punching bag.



We made broader legislation originally. It apparently didn't help.


You're right. You can dictate everything that goes on in every person's life in the UN. My question is, why? If you're saying this is the only use for the UN then I say that the UN is useless. I do not believe that though. The UN should be taking a broader view. My country is growing and needs the funds it has to stay runnning. How am I to be constantly shelling out cash to support countries that are just as poorly off as I. There are priorities that you are not taking into account. What real threat does smallpox have against starvation and anarchy? If you break all of these smaller nations with your ceaseless taxation, this is where we will be headed.

I agree. However, I would like to make a resolution.

WHEREAS Small pox is a growing epidemic, and WHEREAS the current vaccine can be deadly to some people, BIRT the vaccine become safer for everyone who gets it, and BIFRT that the vaccine be a mandatory vaccine until the epidemic has ceased.

Thank you.

How can you ask that I, as a sovereign nation, increase my spending on healthcare?If you don't increase healthcare spending, how are you going to pay for immunization?

You can't just magically say, "Well, we're immunizing against smallpox". Where is the money coming from? What did you stop buying to pay for those shots? Your NationStates statistics can't change just because you RP a massive immunization effort, you know...

The only other way this can be handled is through an issue. When I reach 500 million people, if you'd really like, I'll make it an issue. But that will likely cost you a whole lot more, because the only thing that would cause smallpox vaccinations to be an issue would probably be an actual smallpox outbreak.

TANSTAAFL, folks. I appreciate the Libertarian P.O.V., along with the national sovereignty argument (H_ll, I've used both) but lets be serious: if epidemic prevention/control is not a NSUN function, what function does the NSUN have?!?

It does not put a limit on anything. So, all the government has to do to fufill this proposal, if it does pass, is to put one additional ((dollar)) into the fund.The original proposal specified an amount. The NSUN moderator who reviewed it said that the proposed amount (%1 of GDP) needed to be dropped.

As for "the fund", there is no fund. You pay for your own shots and I pay for mine. If I can help you pay for your shots without shorting my people, then I do so. That's what the proposal says.

You're right. You can dictate everything that goes on in every person's life in the UN. My question is, why? If you're saying this is the only use for the UN then I say that the UN is useless. I do not believe that though. The UN should be taking a broader view. My country is growing and needs the funds it has to stay runnning. How am I to be constantly shelling out cash to support countries that are just as poorly off as I. There are priorities that you are not taking into account. What real threat does smallpox have against starvation and anarchy? If you break all of these smaller nations with your ceaseless taxation, this is where we will be headed.I sympathize with your P.O.V. The NSUN should not be passing half the things it passes. But this is exactly the sort of thing it should be doing.

Why? Because the NSUN should address international issues - and only international issues. These are examples of things the NSUN should not mandate: Health care standards or delivery
Abortion rights
Marriage laws
Educational standards or systems
Speed limits
Drug laws
Emancipation laws
Contributions to other countries
These are examples of things the NSUN can and should mandate: Trade rules (trade is international)
Industrial standards (to facilitate trade)
Standards of conduct in warfare (to avoid a "race to the bottom" or a "prisoners dilemna" situation that might perpetuate unwanted practices)
Diplomatic protocols (diplomacy is international)
Global environmental issues, like overfishing, ozone depletion, etc. (to avoid a "tragedy of the commons" situation)
Trafficking in contraband goods - eg.,slaves, drugs, guns, WMD technology (goes to international trade rules)
International banking and exchange (goes to international trade)
Disaster relief rules (the "gifts" are international in nature)
Disease prevention/epidemic control (disease ignores borders).

Bottom line: ask yourself "is this a situation where events in Nation A would be expected to affect Nation B if they run their course"? If not, it's not something the NSUN can or should deal with. If so, it is.

In the case of smallpox, if one of your citizens can get on a plane and take it to my country, it's no longer a domestic issue. It's an international one.

And hence a legitimate area of NSUN concern.

I agree. However, I would like to make a resolution.

WHEREAS Small pox is a growing epidemic, and WHEREAS the current vaccine can be deadly to some people, BIRT the vaccine become safer for everyone who gets it, and BIFRT that the vaccine be a mandatory vaccine until the epidemic has ceased.

Thank you.That is pretty much what I have proposed, only in the language of a NSUN proposal.

The one exception: I do not mandate the development of a safer vaccine, because I don't know that one exists or even can exist. So I go with what we've got, because that's good enough. Second, I don't make it mandatory; it is left to each nation to decide what steps they need to take to eradicate the disease. If your nation's response would be mandatory vaccination, then that's what you'll do; if your preference is to offer financial inducements to get people to vaccinate, then that's what you'll do; if your nations simply relies of public service ads, then that's what you'll do.

Personally, I think this is a whole lot better than creating an NSWHO that has extraterritorial rights to do as it pleases in the quest to rid the world of all diseases. How do I know that will be acceptable to my people? I don't, and there's not much I can do about it.

But this way, each nation handles its own population, and nations that need help get help from nations that can give it. Moreover, the vaccinations continue for each new generation, to preserve our immunity (something that wasn't done in RL, which is why smallpox is still a terrorist threat in RL.

I wanted to maximize national autonomy in dealing with this issue, and that's why it's written the way that it is.

Why? Because the NSUN should address international issues - and only international issues. These are examples of things the NSUN should not mandate: Health care standards or delivery
Abortion rights
Marriage laws
Educational standards or systems
Speed limits
Drug laws
Emancipation laws
Contributions to other countries
These are examples of things the NSUN can and should mandate: Trade rules (trade is international)
Industrial standards (to facilitate trade)
Standards of conduct in warfare (to avoid a "race to the bottom" or a "prisoners dilemna" situation that might perpetuate unwanted practices)
Diplomatic protocols (diplomacy is international)
Global environmental issues, like overfishing, ozone depletion, etc. (to avoid a "tragedy of the commons" situation)
Trafficking in contraband goods - eg.,slaves, drugs, guns, WMD technology (goes to international trade rules)
International banking and exchange (goes to international trade)
Disaster relief rules (the "gifts" are international in nature)
Disease prevention/epidemic control (disease ignores borders).

Bottom line: ask yourself "is this a situation where events in Nation A would be expected to affect Nation B if they run their course"? If not, it's not something the NSUN can or should deal with. If so, it is.

In the case of smallpox, if one of your citizens can get on a plane and take it to my country, it's no longer a domestic issue. It's an international one.

And hence a legitimate area of NSUN concern.

This IS Health care and delivery. And it doesn't affect your nation if I don't do it. If your country is innoculated, then you are immune, period.
I'm not saying this shouldn't be addressed. I'm saying this shouldn't be legislation.

This IS Health care and delivery. And it doesn't affect your nation if I don't do it. If your country is innoculated, then you are immune, period.
I'm not saying this shouldn't be addressed. I'm saying this shouldn't be legislation.Sure it does.

My government would likely make vaccinations optional and encourage their administration, but refrain from vaccinating high-risk individuals (persons with MS, Lupus, AIDS, VODAIS, etc.). This will leave 5% or so of my populace at risk. My losses among those 5% will be higher if you don't do anything to curb the disease on your soil.

OOC: and once those people die, we'll have a more perfect species. :D

5%??? I spend all that money to save you 5% ?!? I am not seeing the cost effectiveness.

OOC: My wife has MS.

I don't see anything wrong with this resolution... it seems to me like prudence. I don't see why any nation would like to opt out of preventing this disease...

I don't see anything wrong with this resolution... it seems to me like prudence. I don't see why any nation would like to opt out of preventing this disease...

Your insult will be taken as political irony. If you read my argument, it has nothing to do with that. It is the loss of my nation's sovereignty that I am attempting to thwart.

It is the loss of my nation's sovereignty that I am attempting to thwart.

If you are that concerned with your nation's complete sovereignty, why are you in the NSUN? The main point of the UN is to give out agreeable regulations to a group of nations who are willing to follow them in order to improve the overall state of the world. If you are unwilling to follow the UN's goal, dont be a member.

UN regulations and money being required to pay for legeslation that focuses on such a minute topic, are huge differences. Reread the UN goals, then apply them to your country, then insert foot in mouth, then come back and retract your statement. Small pox as a worldwide epedemic doesn't concern me enough to decrease my budget when there are more important issues such as defense, health care, and economical growth.

I would like to point out that while several people have noted (correctly) that the smallpox vaccine can be dangerous, no one has come out and said that it would be irresponsible to give it to children as part of their series of vaccinations. It is dangerous in many cases for healthy adults - exposing children and/or adults with immune problems that may or may not be officially diagnosed is ridiculous.

In addition, a stock of the virus needs to be kept in anticipation of the research that will need to be done when (not if) a rogue nation or group decides to weaponize it. While the resolution does not specifically ban this, it doesn't explicitly allow it, either, so there is potential for confusion.

Finally, smallpox is best eradicated through quarantine procedures & sanitation. In developed countries, this is already happening quite successfully, so the resolution merely tells them to "do it more". In undeveloped nations, this would require huge changes to the infrastructure and lifestyle that may be beyond the means of the UN members' combined financial powers.

Thus, Obvion has no choice but to vote against this, and to urge the Free States of Gaia's delegate to do so as well.

I think several SERIOUS errors in this legislation have come to light. I ask all those that have voted for this legislation to remove their vote immediately. Let's not go through the difficulty of having to withdraw this inept resolution later. I plead with you.

The High King of the Dominion of Suklaa

You will not have the support of the federation of semli. You have no i dea how many people in world have small pox and i feel that it is not up to you to decide how i spend my money. If i decide health care is the most important thing than thats what i shall vote for, but forcing a burden onto other nations when they might have little to none of their population infected with smallpox is wrong. Especially for nation still try to make it in this world. I call for others to make the same decision that i did and say no to this resolution.
This is just one reason i thank Obvion for very well written post. This bill cannot pass for health if nothing else.

Smallpox is not a problem. Why throw money at something, trying to fix it, when it's not broke? AGAINST!

We need to get this done. We need to save all the people. It's our fault. Ok. It's all our faults that we can't help them. We as a society need to help more people with small poxs, and less people like Terri Schiavo.

If you don't increase healthcare spending, how are you going to pay for immunization?

You can't just magically say, "Well, we're immunizing against smallpox". Where is the money coming from? What did you stop buying to pay for those shots? Your NationStates statistics can't change just because you RP a massive immunization effort, you know...

The only other way this can be handled is through an issue. When I reach 500 million people, if you'd really like, I'll make it an issue. But that will likely cost you a whole lot more, because the only thing that would cause smallpox vaccinations to be an issue would probably be an actual smallpox outbreak.

TANSTAAFL, folks. I appreciate the Libertarian P.O.V., along with the national sovereignty argument (H_ll, I've used both) but lets be serious: if epidemic prevention/control is not a NSUN function, what function does the NSUN have?!?

OOC: Following the rules for posting proposals, real world people, issues, organizations, etc. do not exist in NS...so how can we vote on a proposal for a disease that exists in RL?

IC: You have a point about funding needing to come from some other location in a budget, BUT...by the reports I have rec'd from my Minister of Health there are no reported outbreaks of this "Smallpox" disease anywhere within Cynomolgus' borders. Therefore, I see no need to increase funding for a disease that has no impact on my country and its citizens.

I'll have to vote against this idea, while it seems like a good idea at the time it may do damage or create a whole virus all over again even worse then small pox

This IS Health care and delivery. And it doesn't affect your nation if I don't do it. If your country is innoculated, then you are immune, period.
I'm not saying this shouldn't be addressed. I'm saying this shouldn't be legislation.

The purpose is the complete innoculation, and therefore (much like Polio) the complete eradication of a particular virus.

If a everyone is innoculated, the virus is effectively dead. Much like Polio was handled at one point.

When only a segment of the population is innoculated, the virus is still free to spread, and therefore evolve, including evolution into forms to which there is no more protection by innoculation.

Therefore this is most certainly an international health concern. Since the proposal is the complete eradication of a particular deadly virus.

The only problem here is the NSUN's lack of complete jurisdictional authority. Therefore rendering it presently impossible for the NSUN to eradicate such a virus. Since it would remain free, and mobile in rogue states. Thus making the effects of this resolution null. Leaving us in the same predicament as before, constantly developing innoculations for a mobile and evolving virus.

Thus I would argue, while the resolution has potential merit. It is in fact ineffective, as long as there exists limits to NSUN international jurisdiction.

Thus, at this time the Republic does not give full support to this proposal.

The purpose is the complete innoculation, and therefore (much like Polio) the complete eradication of a particular virus.

If a everyone is innoculated, the virus is effectively dead. Much like Polio was handled at one point.

When only a segment of the population is innoculated, the virus is still free to spread, and therefore evolve, including evolution into forms to which there is no more protection by innoculation.

Therefore this is most certainly an international health concern. Since the proposal is the complete eradication of a particular deadly virus.

The only problem here is the NSUN's lack of complete jurisdictional authority. Therefore rendering it presently impossible for the NSUN to eradicate such a virus. Since it would remain free, and mobile in rogue states. Thus making the effects of this resolution null. Leaving us in the same predicament as before, constantly developing innoculations for a mobile and evolving virus.

Thus I would argue, while the resolution has potential merit. It is in fact ineffective, as long as there exists limits to NSUN international jurisdiction.

Thus, at this time the Republic does not give full support to this proposal.

OOC: Haven't seen you in a while. Good to see you again.

IC: The Roman government respectfully disagrees with your opinion. While we hold your opinion to high regard, we find that your concerns- which most of my region shares- are rather trivial. Nowhere in the Resolution does it state that nations cannot stockpile an arsenal to prevent against future infections and to further develop the vaccine, a project we are currently working on. We would also like to state that smallpox is a DNA virus (as opposed to RNA virii like HIV) and is thus easier to control and eradicate as it is less likely to mutate. We thus hope that you will reconsider your decision and render your full support, as we feel that smallpox is of utmost international importance.

UN regulations and money being required to pay for legeslation that focuses on such a minute topic, are huge differences. Reread the UN goals, then apply them to your country, then insert foot in mouth, then come back and retract your statement. Small pox as a worldwide epedemic doesn't concern me enough to decrease my budget when there are more important issues such as defense, health care, and economical growth.

Smallpox vaccinations are part of healthcare. Enjoying the taste of your toes?

Also, the goals of the UN are what the UN decides they are. The UN appears to think this is worthy of being a goal. If you have some knowledge of the majority of the UN from your apparent telepathy that the rest of us don't, feel free to share it when you have the proof to back it.

Smallpox is not a problem. Why throw money at something, trying to fix it, when it's not broke? AGAINST!

Got proof it's not a problem in NS, or just running your mouth?

OOC: Following the rules for posting proposals, real world people, issues, organizations, etc. do not exist in NS...so how can we vote on a proposal for a disease that exists in RL?

Easily. The HIV resolutions set the precedent.

IC: You have a point about funding needing to come from some other location in a budget, BUT...by the reports I have rec'd from my Minister of Health there are no reported outbreaks of this "Smallpox" disease anywhere within Cynomolgus' borders. Therefore, I see no need to increase funding for a disease that has no impact on my country and its citizens.

If not having it is such of a problem, I can fix that for you.

I'll have to vote against this idea, while it seems like a good idea at the time it may do damage or create a whole virus all over again even worse then small pox

Check the variety of strains involved. The disease is relatively stable enough the same vaccine should be all that is needed in most cases. If a new version does pop out, be on the lookout for signs of genetic engineering.

The purpose is the complete innoculation, and therefore (much like Polio) the complete eradication of a particular virus.

If a everyone is innoculated, the virus is effectively dead. Much like Polio was handled at one point.

OOC: Did you hear about Polio making a comeback? Apparently, we didn't vaccinate for long enough.

When only a segment of the population is innoculated, the virus is still free to spread, and therefore evolve, including evolution into forms to which there is no more protection by innoculation.

If such happens, it'll be more likely because it was helped than because nature was involved.

[quote]Therefore this is most certainly an international health concern. Since the proposal is the complete eradication of a particular deadly virus.

The only problem here is the NSUN's lack of complete jurisdictional authority. Therefore rendering it presently impossible for the NSUN to eradicate such a virus. Since it would remain free, and mobile in rogue states. Thus making the effects of this resolution null. Leaving us in the same predicament as before, constantly developing innoculations for a mobile and evolving virus.

Thus I would argue, while the resolution has potential merit. It is in fact ineffective, as long as there exists limits to NSUN international jurisdiction.

Thus, at this time the Republic does not give full support to this proposal.

The point is to eradicate it, but at the very least this allows all of us protection from it. Even if the mission fails, enough benefits exist from it to make it a worthwhile cause. Unless you want cases where terrorists get ahold of stockpiles, such as though I have, and using them as effective weapons against you.

small pox should be eraticated and any one who thinks other wise should be shot. :mp5: :sniper: :gundge:

small pox should be eraticated and any one who thinks other wise should be shot. :mp5: :sniper: :gundge:

If you wished to get it voted against, this is the best way to do it.

what an original idea. wow. whoever thought of this resolution should be named supreme ruler. im glad we have interesting original resolutions going through.

I am new to the UN, to UN law, and to UN debate. I am learning as I go, but ask that esteemed member nations be forgiving if I misspeak or overstep the bounds of propriety.

The People of the Golden Sunset are troubled by this resolution. Though it is obviously well-intentioned, and though it is our sincere hope that debilitating and deadly diseases be eradicated to the greatest extent possible, it seems to us that the resolution currently at vote lacks the specificity to put the necessary machinery in place.

I quote from the resolution:


THE UNITED NATIONS

DECLARES ACCORDINGLY that all Member nations shall make a concerted effort to eradicate smallpox within their territory through the use of established disease eradication techniques, such as quarantine and vaccination, AND

Does this mean that should the Free Land of the Golden Sunset opt simply to exile any citizen who contracts the disease, we would be abiding by the terms of the resolution? Are quarantine and vaccination mandated by the resolution, or is any "established disease eradication technique" permissible? Or would exile, since it passes the problem to another nation, not be acceptable? Would mercy-killing and immediate burial be more appropriate?

FURTHER CALLS UPON all Member nations to increase health care spending accordingly to cover the costs of these measures, AND

If our nation were to combine exile/euthanasia with seizure of property, we might make a modest profit on each smallpox case we encountered. Would we be permitted to cut the value of seized property from our overall health budget?

ALSO FINALLY RECOMMENDS that all Member nations provide other Member nations a share of this additional spending, in a fashion entirely at their discretion, as long as such assistance would not be detrimental to their own eradication efforts, for the purpose of accelerating the pace at which this disease can be wiped out worldwide.

If we provide this money to other Member nations at our discretion, may we decide that the amount of the monies we extend shall be zero, and the date that it is delivered be never, as suits us, and still lie within the bounds of the resolution?

I present these questions as worse-case scenarios, not as anticipated responses from our people if the resolution passes, but I raise them because they seem to me to fall within the letter of the resolution, but not its intent. If I have failed to grasp UN law, please forgive me.

On behalf of the people of the Golden Sunset, I humble thank you for your time, and for the honor of taking part in this debate.

OOC: Following the rules for posting proposals, real world people, issues, organizations, etc. do not exist in NS...so how can we vote on a proposal for a disease that exists in RL?

IC: You have a point about funding needing to come from some other location in a budget, BUT...by the reports I have rec'd from my Minister of Health there are no reported outbreaks of this "Smallpox" disease anywhere within Cynomolgus' borders. Therefore, I see no need to increase funding for a disease that has no impact on my country and its citizens.By that same logic, the NSUN could never vote to ban landmines or chemical weapons, abolish slavery, recognize gay marriage, legalize prostitution, fight AIDS, or a bunch of other things that it's already done.

If dogs can exist in RL, so can smallpox.

i find this a worthy cause.

I am new to the UN, to UN law, and to UN debate. I am learning as I go, but ask that esteemed member nations be forgiving if I misspeak or overstep the bounds of propriety.

The People of the Golden Sunset are troubled by this resolution. Though it is obviously well-intentioned, and though it is our sincere hope that debilitating and deadly diseases be eradicated to the greatest extent possible, it seems to us that the resolution currently at vote lacks the specificity to put the necessary machinery in place.

I quote from the resolution:


THE UNITED NATIONS

DECLARES ACCORDINGLY that all Member nations shall make a concerted effort to eradicate smallpox within their territory through the use of established disease eradication techniques, such as quarantine and vaccination, AND

Does this mean that should the Free Land of the Golden Sunset opt simply to exile any citizen who contracts the disease, we would be abiding by the terms of the resolution? Are quarantine and vaccination mandated by the resolution, or is any "established disease eradication technique" permissible? Or would exile, since it passes the problem to another nation, not be acceptable? Would mercy-killing and immediate burial be more appropriate?

FURTHER CALLS UPON all Member nations to increase health care spending accordingly to cover the costs of these measures, AND

If our nation were to combine exile/euthanasia with seizure of property, we might make a modest profit on each smallpox case we encountered. Would we be permitted to cut the value of seized property from our overall health budget?

ALSO FINALLY RECOMMENDS that all Member nations provide other Member nations a share of this additional spending, in a fashion entirely at their discretion, as long as such assistance would not be detrimental to their own eradication efforts, for the purpose of accelerating the pace at which this disease can be wiped out worldwide.

If we provide this money to other Member nations at our discretion, may we decide that the amount of the monies we extend shall be zero, and the date that it is delivered be never, as suits us, and still lie within the bounds of the resolution?

I present these questions as worse-case scenarios, not as anticipated responses from our people if the resolution passes, but I raise them because they seem to me to fall within the letter of the resolution, but not its intent. If I have failed to grasp UN law, please forgive me.

On behalf of the people of the Golden Sunset, I humble thank you for your time, and for the honor of taking part in this debate.

Addressing your first point, yes, I suppose that you could order people shot if you wanted. On the other hand, if you're the kind of country that does such things, you're probably already doing that.

Ditto for exile. Keep in mind, thought, that neither one would prevent the disease, so you'd be committing to shooting people on an ongoing basis. Of course, if you're the kind of country that does such things...

On the second point, confiscation of a persons property is just another tax, and if you're the kind of country that does such things... ;)

On the third point, it is intended that nations have the option to give nothing. That's why the verb "urged" was used. The resolution is meant to encourage aid without compelling it.

IC: You have a point about funding needing to come from some other location in a budget, BUT...by the reports I have rec'd from my Minister of Health there are no reported outbreaks of this "Smallpox" disease anywhere within Cynomolgus' borders. Therefore, I see no need to increase funding for a disease that has no impact on my country and its citizens.

If not having it is such of a problem, I can fix that for you.



Our nation feels that that was an undiplomatic attack on another nation. We respectfully advise withdrawl of statement.

Our nation feels that that was an undiplomatic attack on another nation. We respectfully advise withdrawl of statement.

And we respectfully remind the candidate that if it had been an undiplomatic attack, their capital city would have our soldiers setting up a base of operations to help them in pacifying what resistance there is left to our rule. And we honestly think the comment serves as an appropriate warning for what less charitable nations are willing to do.

The Grand Duchy of Glen Cragmorre has determined two things about this resolution:

1) It has no teeth.

2) It can be easily circumvented while still meeting both the letter and spirit of the resolution.

We will therefore support this resolution, just to make it's author feel adequate and important.

The GD

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael T Zoril
Smallpox is not a problem. Why throw money at something, trying to fix it, when it's not broke? AGAINST!

Got proof it's not a problem in NS, or just running your mouth?"

This works both ways. Have you proof, Dark Lord, that it is a problem? As aforementioned, for small countries the economic impact of this resolution could be devastating. For isolationist countries who have no small pox the money could be much better spent. If data cannot be supplied showing that small pox is a threat to the population of several NSUN countries, Bethnia does not think it is responsible of the UN to impose an increase in health care spending on every member nation to combat the POSSIBILITY of a disease; a spending increase which will potentially take money away from other important issues and causes in many countries such as education or environment.

It seems to Bethnia that member nations of the NSUN generally approve of measures that will improve life in this world. Therefore, Bethnia believes each individual country can adequately enforce small pox prevention and treatment as they see best fit for their nation.

In short this should be an issue for each nation's government to deal with, not an issue for the UN to rule on.

A brief aside...
"Quote:
IC: You have a point about funding needing to come from some other location in a budget, BUT...by the reports I have rec'd from my Minister of Health there are no reported outbreaks of this "Smallpox" disease anywhere within Cynomolgus' borders. Therefore, I see no need to increase funding for a disease that has no impact on my country and its citizens.

If not having it is such of a problem, I can fix that for you."

This delagate agrees the comment was in bad form and should be retracted. Such immature threats are inappropriate.

This works both ways. Have you proof, Dark Lord, that it is a problem? As aforementioned, for small countries the economic impact of this resolution could be devastating. For isolationist countries who have no small pox the money could be much better spent. If data cannot be supplied showing that small pox is a threat to the population of several NSUN countries, Bethnia does not think it is responsible of the UN to impose an increase in health care spending on every member nation to combat the POSSIBILITY of a disease; a spending increase which will potentially take money away from other important issues and causes in many countries such as education or environment.

Actually, my comment earlier was that we don't know how widespread it is, as we have absolutely no data on its spread at all. I support the resolution, but then again I also have stockpiles of said biological agent for potential medical uses. Medical uses can quickly become military uses if enough motivation were to exist, and I'm not going to lie to myself and say I would never turn it into a weapon to protect my nation with if I were desperate enough. Nor will I pretend I am alone in keeping such deadly agents around.

As it stands, enough nations believe Smallpox to be a threat for it to be winning by a large margin. Of those, we don't know how many are doing it to prevent a possible threat and how many are doing it to deal with a problem they are having. Do you have any idea?

The claims it isn't a problem have no evidence to back them, which is what I was challenging. A lack of data doesn't mean a lack of a problem.

It seems to Bethnia that member nations of the NSUN generally approve of measures that will improve life in this world. Therefore, Bethnia believes each individual country can adequately enforce small pox prevention and treatment as they see best fit for their nation.

The gamble: If you're right and this passes, it's just a wasted resolution. If you're wrong and this passes, a serious problem is addressed. If you're right and this fails, nothing changes. If you're wrong and this fails, the next nation begging for medical aid from others could be yours. How much of a gamble are you willing to take?

In short this should be an issue for each nation's government to deal with, not an issue for the UN to rule on.

The UN, not you or me, decides what it should rule on. Part of the setup.

A brief aside...

This delagate agrees the comment was in bad form and should be retracted. Such immature threats are inappropriate.

"To assume tha maturity levels of others is to show one's own lower level of it."

I always loved that quote.

Personally, I've been enjoying this little game. If you recognize the way in which it was used and the intended tone behind it (it's not all that hard to figure out), you would figure out why that taste in your mouth is so similar to sock.

Like I just said, that smallpox proposal is one huge runon sentence. Good enough reason to vote no.

However we do need proper healthcare. All it has to be is service whenever we walk in and walk out paying 20$US(or foreign currency equivlent) each time! BRILLIANT!

David

The Democratic Republic of Caelvania is a small nation of extremely limited resources, and we would be much obliged if Vastiva were to also add our country to your list.
We look forward to what promises to be much learned debate of this resolution, and hope to gain wisdom from the discussion.

Twelfth Citizen, U.N. Ambassador

*blinks*

Alright, consider yourself on the list. Bitewaldi should be experiencing a minor outbreak in a few months time; Vastiva is already vaccinating at high rate, and using our medical technology to limit fatal reactions - and working on alternate therapies for vaccination.

If you choose a wider scope, you will likely never achieve your goal. IT professionals call this "scope creep": the job just keeps growing to suck up whatever resources are available without ever nearing completion, because the task itself has become open-ended.
well, as i pointed out, the virus could mutate, making this open ended anyway, so why not do it? also, you must remember that resolutions dont exactly have an expiry date. they are generally open ended.

This resolution requires mandatory vaccinations, and that could be bad for some people.

Nowhere in the resolution is anything other than elimination of the disease from one's territory mandated. Nations may implement whatever strategy they wish in eradicating smallpox. That was intentional, although there are certain some methods that I would not endorse.

Note also that the resolution does not impose a time frame, as long as the goal is met. Again, the idea was that this should be left to the Members.

The resolution will bankrupt small. poor countries.

No, it won't. I estimate the cost to be less that 1% of GDP across the board. Here's why:

U.S. Gov't estimates (RL 2003) suggest a cost of $175 per vacinee (http://www.astho.org/templates/display_pub.php?u=JnB1Yl9pZD02MTc%3D). Very little of this is the actual cost of the vaccine; in RL 2001 HHS purchased 155,000,000 doses for $428,000,000, or $2.76 per dose (http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2001pres/20011128.html). So what's the rest? Labor.

Poor countries have a lower labor cost than richer ones. This reduces the cost of the program.

$175 per person
-$4 materials
=$171 labor per vacinee

$23,500 est. mean GDP per capita
/2,048 hours per year
=$11.50 avg. wage

$171 labor cost
/$11.50 avg. wage
~15 hours labor

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Est. per capita cost for Allemande (using Commerce Heights data) - $160 ($4 vaccine, $156 labor).
Est per capita cost for Ayaddha (using Commerce Heights data) - $36 ($4 vaccine, $32 labor).

IOW, because over 95% of the cost of vaccination (or any other strategy chosen for dealing with the disease is laboir, and labor costs are lower in poorer countires, the impact on poor countries will be no greater than the impact on rich ones.

Historically, in RL, the effort to eradicate smallpox did not bankrupt the impoverished nations of the Third World.

The resolution requires that we destroy all samples of smallpox, leaving us vulnerable to terrorists.

It does nothing of the sort. It does not in fact say anything about lab samples, and because the measures being called for are expected to continue until repeal (if the resolution ever is repealed, then by definition anything we need to do to keep meeting the mandate we will do.

The resolution is ambiguous: it does not specify a timetable, or who should or should not be vaccinated, or what methods of eradication can or can not be used, or how much the cost will be, or how much aid must be given and to whom, or whether samples should be kept or destroyed, or...

This is not a flaw. It's a deliberate feature of the proposal. Each nation will implement the mandate in its own way, varying according to its resources, political and economic limitations, social and demographic situation, etc. There is no single optimal strategy for dealing with the disease, and so we leave it up to the Membership to work their own out, as long as the overall goal is met.

Somewhere else in this forum, someone is complaining that NSUN proposals are "deceptive" in so far as they specify methods of revenue acquisition, amounts of money to be collection, timetables for operation, and none of this actualy happens.

The reason it doesn't happen is because the game mechanics don't let it happen.

All any NSUN resolution ever does is raise or lower taxes, raise or lower a nation's economic performance and its social or political freedoms. Everything else is RP, and RP can not be regulated in NS.

Why waste time dictating details that will be determined by the mods and the game mechanics? We can't dictate that stuff anyway: it's just that some of us seem to think we can.

In mechanical terms, this proposal increases health and taxes. The effect is "mild", so the increase is very small. In fact, "mild" proposals only affect your nation if your ratings (or taxes) are low, and the effect is always small. Poor, overtaxed countries with lousy health care will experience an improvement in health care without a tax increase; undertaxed countries will pay a little more, and (maybe) get a health benefit.

The big impact will be on RP: NSUN nations will be able to say that they are protected from smallpox in just a few short years, and non-NSUN nations that have smallbox as a bioweapon won't be able to us it on NSUN members.

Now, here's what I want you all to ponder: if we don't pass this proposal, how are you going to claim that you're immune to smallpox without godmoding?

nations are sovereign and need to take care of themselves. thats why immigration policies exist. if we know that another country is smallpox free, then i welcome its citizens to visit. if the country is plagued by smallpox, we have its citizens medically checked out.

it isnt the UNs responsibility to declare which diseases get cleared out. we are a sovereign nation.

nations are sovereign and need to take care of themselves. thats why immigration policies exist. if we know that another country is smallpox free, then i welcome its citizens to visit. if the country is plagued by smallpox, we have its citizens medically checked out. and what if you don't know that the smallpox problem exists?

it isnt the UNs responsibility to declare which diseases get cleared out. we are a sovereign nation.I happen to be a big supporter of national soverignty and I also happen to be in favor of this resolution because diseases don't respect national borders. Thereby making this something that needs to be dealt with on an international level.

As a nation, concerned with its people's rights, eliminating smallpox is one of these goals to further the general welfae and ensuring people's lives are protected. So therefore, I agree with the resolution 100%. :)

ALSO FINALLY RECOMMENDS that all Member nations provide other Member nations a share of this additional spending, in a fashion entirely at their discretion, as long as such assistance would not be detrimental to their own eradication efforts, for the purpose of accelerating the pace at which this disease can be wiped out worldwide.

Here we see this measure exposed for its true nature. Smallpox is not a problem in developed nations, because it is an easily preventable disease among people who can afford the cure. Smallpox is a problem among nations whose ill-considered economic policies have deprived the people of the means to produce or procure the cure. These nations are therefore unable to afford the increase in health spending this measure calls for, and will have to be funded from the outside.

Cabinia stands strongly against international welfare, which acts as a prop to support malicious dictators, deluded theocracies, and well-meaning but ultimately wrongheaded and dangerous socialists. This measure is nothing but a rob-from-the-rich-to-give-to-the-poor measure. The solution to problems caused by international poverty is not to steal from capitalists. The solution is to spread capitalism.

Cabinia also feels it imperative to point out the glaring fallacy in the economic impact study produced by the representative of Allemande:

Poor countries have a lower labor cost than richer ones. This reduces the cost of the program.

$175 per person
-$4 materials
=$171 labor per vacinee

$23,500 est. mean GDP per capita
/2,048 hours per year
=$11.50 avg. wage

$171 labor cost
/$11.50 avg. wage
~15 hours labor

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Est. per capita cost for Allemande (using Commerce Heights data) - $160 ($4 vaccine, $156 labor).
Est per capita cost for Ayaddha (using Commerce Heights data) - $36 ($4 vaccine, $32 labor).


The underlying assumption here is that Allemande and Ayaddha both possess infrastructures equal to meeting a drastically increased demand in smallpox vaccine production. This assumption is totally invalid. As a poor nation, it is not logical to assume that Ayaddha has the manufacturing capacity to meet their own needs... at which point they would be forced to import vaccine from overseas, from someone like Allemande. Not only would they be paying the Allemande labor cost, but they would be paying additional shipping fees.

The largest exporters of vaccine would be the rather wealthy nations like Cabinia. Using the formulas given by the representative of Allemande, the per capita cost for Cabinian vaccine would be $242 plus shipping... a cost prohibitive to nations like Ayaddha.

Cabinian taxes would be spent on Cabinian vaccine and shipped to Ayuddha, which will make their citizens healthier and happier, making it easier for the ideologically repugnant government of Ayuddha to remain in power. This represents a gross misuse of UN funds.

Cabinia stands strongly opposed to this resolution, and requests that all freedom-loving nations of the UN reconsider their support.

Bull. "The answer is to spread capitalism?" This should have nothing to do with the economic/political systems of the governments we're eradicating smallpox in. Forget about foreign nations for a second- should we eliminate a disease that causes untold suffering and deaths, even in nations run by dicatators or mad scientists? I feel the answer is obvious. Yes, it'll cost money to support this program. But it'll be worth it to eliminate a deadly disease that affects anybody, not just ourselves. :headbang:

This is the United Nations. Foreign nations are our business. Forgetting about foreign nations would be like a chef trying to do his job while not thinking about food.

Smallpox does not affect anybody. It affects only those who are not vaccinated. This should be obvious to any delegate who does not damage his brain purposely by banging it into a wall.

You missed my point completely, but perhaps that was my choice of poor words. What I meant to say is, forget about foreign governments. Focus instead on foreign people. Is it their fault the dictator of their nation is a jackass who ran their health care system into the ground? It'll cost money for us to help them, but in the end it is worth the cost of human life. And if moral arguments fail to persuade you, there is this simple fact. The cost of supporting a smallpox vaccination program for the next one hundred, two hundred or five hundred years is far less then paying to eradicating it now. Once the disease is eradicated, it is no longer necessary to vaccinate. I support this legislation 1oo%.

OOC: Did you hear about Polio making a comeback? Apparently, we didn't vaccinate for long enough.

It was eradicated. But samples were kept in cold storage of the original virus. The comeback is in regards to the escape of samples back into the enviroment. Effectively the virus spread was completely stopped. But by maintaining samples the potential for comeback was there. As such occured.

Innoculation isn't permanate. It only works for temporal concerns. When innoculation occured of all peoples on the planet. The virus spread was entered. Existing naturally occuring strains die. However, the innoculation does not protect those not originally innoculated. Thus release means that the virus can once again spread un-hindered.


The point is to eradicate it, but at the very least this allows all of us protection from it. Even if the mission fails, enough benefits exist from it to make it a worthwhile cause. Unless you want cases where terrorists get ahold of stockpiles, such as though I have, and using them as effective weapons against you.

Well, CRoT citizens have been genetically engineered to be CCR5-Delta32 dominate. We are immune to smallpox and HIV because of the presence of this protein which prevents the viruses being able to penetrate the cell membranes. However, if the rest of the UN wishes to use innculatory techniques... That is fine by us. We are just un-sure of the need for a resolution, and what effect it would have in actuallity.

Waterana agrees with this resolution, and has voted for.

As has Fatus Maximus.

It was eradicated. But samples were kept in cold storage of the original virus. The comeback is in regards to the escape of samples back into the enviroment. Effectively the virus spread was completely stopped. But by maintaining samples the potential for comeback was there. As such occured.

Innoculation isn't permanate. It only works for temporal concerns. When innoculation occured of all peoples on the planet. The virus spread was entered. Existing naturally occuring strains die. However, the innoculation does not protect those not originally innoculated. Thus release means that the virus can once again spread un-hindered.

As I pointed out before, smallpox is a DNA virus, as opposed to a RNA virus such as HIV. This means that when it replicates, it is less likely to mutate DNA virii "check" themselves to make sure that the replication is perfect. RNA virii don't. So smallpox can be that much more easily eradicated than something like Polio or HIV, which, as RNA virii, are more likely to mutate.

Like I just said, that smallpox proposal is one huge runon sentence.That's the style of diplomatic resolutions... ;)

The underlying assumption here is that Allemande and Ayaddha both possess infrastructures equal to meeting a drastically increased demand in smallpox vaccine production. This assumption is totally invalid. As a poor nation, it is not logical to assume that Ayaddha has the manufacturing capacity to meet their own needs... at which point they would be forced to import vaccine from overseas, from someone like Allemande. Not only would they be paying the Allemande labor cost, but they would be paying additional shipping fees.Actually, I chose Ayaddha quite deliberately, because: It has universal college education and produces quite a few doctors.
It has a pharmaceutical industry.
It has universal health care.
It's economy simply hasn't fared as well as Allemande's.

And that brings us to an interesting realization: I can say these things about Ayaddha because it's one of my puppets, and I know what choices it made when faced with the various issues that produced these outcomes. The fact that it exists in this state tells me that there's very little relationship in NS between infrastructure and wealth.

As far as your argument regarding vaccine costs, remember that the cost of the vaccine is less than 10% of the cost of vaccination. Labor costs predominate, and labor costs will probably be incurred at local scale. The people who transport the materials and organize the vaccinations will probably be locals. The people who adminster the shots will probably be locals. If someone gets sick, their care will probably be by locals, and - because they are locals, the lost wages will be on local scale.

How much labor do you think poor countries bring in to conduct vaccinations? Do you think that everyone involved is a foreigner? Few poor nations with anything above an imploded economy tend to be that feeble and reliant on foreign help.

I'll stick by the estimate of $36 per person for Ayaddha, because the shot costs maybe $4 (actually, less, because Allemande will probably invest in Ayaddhi facilities so as to produce its vaccines there - cheap labor and all...) and $32 will buy a lot of labor on the Ayaddhi market -even in health care.

Cabinian taxes would be spent on Cabinian vaccine and shipped to Ayuddha, which will make their citizens healthier and happier, making it easier for the ideologically repugnant government of Ayuddha to remain in power. This represents a gross misuse of UN funds.Canibian funds will pay for Canibian eradication. If Canibia wants to help others, it can - but it can decide who it helps, and in what way. That's why the resolution "urges" nations to help rather than "compelling" or "demanding" that they help.

Personally, given your position, I doubt anyone should expect help from Canibia at all.

Here we see this measure exposed for its true nature. Smallpox is not a problem in developed nations, because it is an easily preventable disease among people who can afford the cure. Smallpox is a problem among nations whose ill-considered economic policies have deprived the people of the means to produce or procure the cure. These nations are therefore unable to afford the increase in health spending this measure calls for, and will have to be funded from the outside.

I would rather fund them then have to deal with the possibility one person slips by without their innoculation and next thing I know I have it in major cities on two planets. I'm looking at myself, not them.

Cabinia stands strongly against international welfare, which acts as a prop to support malicious dictators, deluded theocracies, and well-meaning but ultimately wrongheaded and dangerous socialists. This measure is nothing but a rob-from-the-rich-to-give-to-the-poor measure. The solution to problems caused by international poverty is not to steal from capitalists. The solution is to spread capitalism.

I will remind the delegate of Cabinia that some of us in the UN are dictators, and if we are to be branded as malicious we are willing to act the part.

Just because a nation is a dictatorship doesn't mean it is poor or requires help.

The largest exporters of vaccine would be the rather wealthy nations like Cabinia. Using the formulas given by the representative of Allemande, the per capita cost for Cabinian vaccine would be $242 plus shipping... a cost prohibitive to nations like Ayaddha.

Only because you're gouging the prices. I can get it farther down than that with ease.

Cabinia listen to yourself! Who do you sound like? Humm...I don't think...oh wait a minute, a very radical Right winged individual who don't give a damn about anyone but yourself. "Oh yes, export vaccines, oh yes we are doing good by selling vaccines to people who needs it-yep yep!" You know who else you sound like? You sound like one of those flithy merchants who live because there is always a shortage of something. You know what Cabinia, what if your country is suddently struck by disease? Humm? And what if we all say, "Well, we will help you, don't worry, all you have to do is hand over your treasury and all your natural resources. Now that is idea isn't?" Then won't you start screaming for help? Don't be selfish, because no matter how rich you get, you will live with the guilt of a theif. Learn from history-the selfish is never remembered as heros. If you don't know where to start, learn from John D. Rockefeller or Andrew Carnegie they can teach you all about capitalism and selfishness,believe me there is a fine line between the two, and you just crossed it.

As I pointed out before, smallpox is a DNA virus, as opposed to a RNA virus such as HIV. This means that when it replicates, it is less likely to mutate DNA virii "check" themselves to make sure that the replication is perfect. RNA virii don't. So smallpox can be that much more easily eradicated than something like Polio or HIV, which, as RNA virii, are more likely to mutate.
however, RomeW, you have to remember that this is NS, not RL, there for you cant rule out a mutation in the virus, especially if a non-NSUN state decides to experiment with it.

Drakendrake: The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and these socialist measures are the surest paving stones. Sure, you all get moralistic when it comes to a single issue like smallpox. But you're all blind to the big picture. Each one of these measures which passes adds to an aggregate effect of UN charity. So long as the rest of the world provides the financial backing, bad governments remain in power. You are, in effect, bankrolling bad government, one well-intended resolution at a time.

I would rather fund them then have to deal with the possibility one person slips by without their innoculation and next thing I know I have it in major cities on two planets. I'm looking at myself, not them.

If your own people are innoculated, you have nothing to fear. Straw man.

I will remind the delegate of Cabinia that some of us in the UN are dictators, and if we are to be branded as malicious we are willing to act the part.

Just because a nation is a dictatorship doesn't mean it is poor or requires help.

That's as may be. However, it is worth noting that not a single libertarian nation would benefit from the foreign funds contributed. A significant number of dictatorships, on the other hand, would be counted among those who do.

My previous statement was in relation to poverty. An impoverished dictatorship is poor because of its dictator. A dictatorship which is not poor is not poor because of its dictator. The people of DLE would probably be better served by a representative who is less sensitive, defensive, and prone to making unwise public threats.

Actually, I chose Ayaddha quite deliberately, because:

* It has universal college education and produces quite a few doctors.
* It has a pharmaceutical industry.
* It has universal health care.

It's economy simply hasn't fared as well as Allemande's.

Ayaddha has *a* pharmaceutical industry. And Chernobyl had a nuclear safety program. Neither statement is an indication of quality.

However, it does appear that the labor costs you were referring to are strictly related to the innoculation process, and not the production process. This was not made clear prior to my response. Thank you for the clarification.

However, we are still talking about a massive innoculation program, and while Ayaddha may have ensured there are enough clinics and nurses to handle this capacity, Ayaddha is an exception, and not the rule. Therefore, the money raised from foreign nations would be required to pay for people to be sent overseas to perform the work, and those people would require pay commensurate with the standard wages in their home nations. Our original assessment of a flaw in the economic impact study still stands.

however, RomeW, you have to remember that this is NS, not RL, there for you cant rule out a mutation in the virus, especially if a non-NSUN state decides to experiment with it.

Likewise, there is no reason to assume that a mutated virus would be effectively neutralized by the current vaccine. Therefore, this measure does not help.

So long as the rest of the world provides the financial backing, bad governments remain in power. You are, in effect, bankrolling bad government, one well-intended resolution at a time.


At the risk of repeating myself, bull. This doesn't have anything to do with the governments of the nations we are eradicating smallpox in. this is about helping the people in those countries. As long as their nation is ruled by a dictator, it can be safely assumed we'll be the only ones willing to help.



If your own people are innoculated, you have nothing to fear.



Smallpox vaccines are not permanent, as I'm sure you're aware. As I've said before, the cost of innoculating all your citizens for the next five hundred years is far less then the cost of eliminating it once and for all now. Plus, there are nations whose people are NOT innoculated- because their government doesn't give a damn. You can pass it off as "their problem, not ours", but in the meantime those people are going to die. If the national government isn't willing to do anything about it, who should? I feel the answer is the UN.



Likewise, there is no reason to assume that a mutated virus would be effectively neutralized by the current vaccine. Therefore, this measure does not help.

Even if the present vaccine fails against a mutated virus, when (if) a new vaccine is created, it would go into effect because of this resolution. Let's say Fatus Maximus discovers the new vaccine. Would you rather have us share it with you, or keep it to ourselves and a few close allies in our region?

Smallpox vaccines are not permanent, as I'm sure you're aware. As I've said before, the cost of innoculating all your citizens for the next five hundred years is far less then the cost of eliminating it once and for all now. Plus, there are nations whose people are NOT innoculated- because their government doesn't give a damn. You can pass it off as "their problem, not ours", but in the meantime those people are going to die. If the national government isn't willing to do anything about it, who should? I feel the answer is the UN.



Even if the present vaccine fails against a mutated virus, when (if) a new vaccine is created, it would go into effect because of this resolution. Let's say Fatus Maximus discovers the new vaccine. Would you rather have us share it with you, or keep it to ourselves and a few close allies in our region?
these two comment just blew a hole in the argument. the object of this proposal is to erradicate smallpox, no? and they are saying it will take a certain amount of time to do it, no? the thing is, it will be only erradicated within the NSUN (if it is erradicated). the NSUN has 38,374 nations. NS has 129570 in total. that means less than a third of the nations are in the NSUN. we wont be able to erradicate it within the NSUN without having to continue vaccinations. which brings me back to the narrowness of the scope, and one argument that this is not open-ended, which in fact it is. this should be voted against, and a new one submitted with a broader scope in setting up in nations a facility to help combat desease, since we cant set up a WHO due to the rules for submissions.

Ayaddha is an exception, and not the rule.Given the economic model behind NS, I'm not sure that's true. Start funding lots of public health measures and your economy will be weak; stop funding them and your economy will pick up - but high social inequality will likely guarantee that a significant percentage of your populace will not be able to afford health care - and as a consequence your infrastructure will shrink to match the reduced demand.

I'll lay money that most NS nations in the $4,000-$8,000 per capita GDP range have lots of hospitals, clinicians, and extensive logistical systems that could support universal vaccination - while a lot of $30,000+ nations in this game don't.

It may not be realistic, but it's my wealthiest nations that deliver the lowest overall level of medical services.

these two comment just blew a hole in the argument. the object of this proposal is to erradicate smallpox, no? and they are saying it will take a certain amount of time to do it, no? the thing is, it will be only erradicated within the NSUN (if it is erradicated). the NSUN has 38,374 nations. NS has 129570 in total. that means less than a third of the nations are in the NSUN. we wont be able to erradicate it within the NSUN without having to continue vaccinations. which brings me back to the narrowness of the scope, and one argument that this is not open-ended, which in fact it is. this should be voted against, and a new one submitted with a broader scope in setting up in nations a facility to help combat desease, since we cant set up a WHO due to the rules for submissions.Broaden the scope and you will have exactly what the libertarians here rail against: a huge, expensive international healthcare bureaucracy that never gets any single problem solved. That's a great way to blow a lot of money for no real tangible benefit.

Broaden the scope and you will have exactly what the libertarians here rail against: a huge, expensive international healthcare bureaucracy that never gets any single problem solved. That's a great way to blow a lot of money for no real tangible benefit.
and this will? as is proven, less than a third of NS are NSUN members, coupled with the fact that it could mutate, means this is just as much a waste of money, just that it is focused on one thing. in the mean time, other more deadly deseases could wipe out populations while we try to get this one under control. then again, this one didnt even pop up till you mentioned it.

If your own people are innoculated, you have nothing to fear. Straw man.

The only people I need to innoculate are those who visit Earth. I'm not going to pretend there are not potential ways the government has yet to think of that would allow a citizen to get around an innoculation requirement.

That's as may be. However, it is worth noting that not a single libertarian nation would benefit from the foreign funds contributed. A significant number of dictatorships, on the other hand, would be counted among those who do.

Only if other nations are willing to help. If you're not, then you don't have to worry about it.

My previous statement was in relation to poverty. An impoverished dictatorship is poor because of its dictator. A dictatorship which is not poor is not poor because of its dictator. The people of DLE would probably be better served by a representative who is less sensitive, defensive, and prone to making unwise public threats.

The people of DLE believe they are best served by the delegate currently serving, as they also believe they are best served by often reminding other nations of their inherent inferiority by not being part of the nation. The government's official stance is that it disagrees with this viewpoint, while the unofficial stance is that he's given up on trying to convince the citizens of the nation to change their viewpoint for this period of time and is instead focusing on dealing with setting up future attempts.

As it's running at 8:1 with less then 24 hours left, I'd say this one is in the bag.

all other bio-weapons should be eliminated as well

nations are sovereign and need to take care of themselves. thats why immigration policies exist. if we know that another country is smallpox free, then i welcome its citizens to visit. if the country is plagued by smallpox, we have its citizens medically checked out.

it isnt the UNs responsibility to declare which diseases get cleared out. we are a sovereign nation.

*puts Weatherston on the list of nations to be visited by covert ops teams with smallpox samples*

Yes, it really is that easy to cause a pandemic in your nation.

And yes, it really is that easy to remove the possibility of it working. That is what this resolution is working towards.

You may know in general all of Vastiva's citizens are smallpox free. However, someone waving a Vastivan passport - who has been to a smallpox zone - are you sure they are clean? No?

Better to implement this now then have problems later.

all other bio-weapons should be eliminated as well

There's a resolution for that already.

I'm new and frankly uninclined to read all of the 11 other pages :)

I guess I should have haha

I'm new and frankly uninclined to read all of the 11 other pages :)

I guess I should have haha

Not on this topic. Check the passed UN resolutions.

UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTION #9

Keep The World Disease-Free!
A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.


Category: Human Rights
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Fallopian Tube

Description: While the hygiene standards of the world has certainly improved in the last 100 years, there is more to be done.

Every citizen in every land should have the right to:

At least one toilet in their house;
At least one washbasin in their house;
At least one of either a bathtub or a shower;
in order to comply with hygiene standards and prolong life expectancy.

Furthermore, vaccinations should be made available to the public, although they don't have to be mandatory.
Vaccinations against the big diseases such as:
Malaria, typhoid, rubella, cholera, polio, et al.

With the backing of the UN, we can give even our poorest inhabitants a nice, clean, healthy life.



Votes For: 16,212
Votes Against: 3,020

Implemented: Mon Apr 14 2003




this is UN resolution #9. note the section in bold. wouldnt smallpox already be covered by this? since it looks like this one will unfortunatly pass, it looks like it could already have the base for repeal.

and this will? as is proven, less than a third of NS are NSUN members, coupled with the fact that it could mutate, means this is just as much a waste of money, just that it is focused on one thing. in the mean time, other more deadly deseases could wipe out populations while we try to get this one under control. then again, this one didnt even pop up till you mentioned it.Hey, if I hadn't mentioned smallpox, someone else would have.

Besides, now they'll have to genetically alter it, which will cost money and require a certain minimal level of technology, taking the risk of smallpox-based bioterrorism out of the hands of small-time operators (big operators will always be a problem).

And as for the rest of the world, the pressure of seeing the NSUN become immune to smallpox may force more of them to RP their own vaccination programs than you think...

this is UN resolution #9. note the section in bold. wouldnt smallpox already be covered by this? since it looks like this one will unfortunatly pass, it looks like it could already have the base for repeal."Such as..." is no guarantee that smallpox has been eradicated. Maybe it has, and maybe it hasn't. Who can say?

If it has, then the UN Gnomes will charge us nothing for the effort. How much you want to bet that doesn't happen?

(Besides, if this resolution were redundant, it would have been stricken and I'd have received a black mark. It wasn't, and I didn't.)

Hey, if I hadn't mentioned smallpox, someone else would have.

Besides, now they'll have to genetically alter it, which will cost money and require a certain minimal level of technology, taking the risk of smallpox-based bioterrorism out of the hands of small-time operators (big operators will always be a problem).

And as for the rest of the world, the pressure of seeing the NSUN become immune to smallpox may force more of them to RP their own vaccination programs than you think...
you dont need scientific intervention to alter a virus. nature has a habit of doing it itself. also, non-NSUN RPing their own vaccination programs is a big assumtion, due to the fact that they usually ignore the NSUN, and usually for a reason too.

you dont need scientific intervention to alter a virus. nature has a habit of doing it itself. also, non-NSUN RPing their own vaccination programs is a big assumtion, due to the fact that they usually ignore the NSUN, and usually for a reason too.And NSUN Members never interact with non-Members in RP, right?

"Such as..." is no guarantee that smallpox has been eradicated. Maybe it has, and maybe it hasn't. Who can say?

If it has, then the UN Gnomes will charge us nothing for the effort. How much you want to bet that doesn't happen?

(Besides, if this resolution were redundant, it would have been stricken and I'd have received a black mark. It wasn't, and I didn't.)
also, as i said, it is a ration of more than 2:1 of non-NSUN:NSUN nations, therefore it wont be totally eradicated, and there is still the possiblities of mutation,

And NSUN Members never interact with non-Members in RP, right?
i didnt say never, i said usually

The region of Equilism has decided to vote against this resolution for the following reasons:
1. The World Health Organization eradicated Smallpox in the 1970's... and as part of the UN, it has already DONE this;
2. This looks like another toothless "encouraging" document, with a suggestion that we all spend more on healthcare. The reference to bioweapons is bizzare, since the resolution doesn't address them or the thorny issue of whether government labs should destroy their smallpox samples; and
3. Nice Sentiment, no gears and it will cost money.

The region of Equilism has decided to vote against this resolution for the following reasons:
1. The World Health Organization eradicated Smallpox in the 1970's... and as part of the UN, it has already DONE this;
2. This looks like another toothless "encouraging" document, with a suggestion that we all spend more on healthcare. The reference to bioweapons is bizzare, since the resolution doesn't address them or the thorny issue of whether government labs should destroy their smallpox samples; and
3. Nice Sentiment, no gears and it will cost money.

1. The WHO doesn't exist in NS.

2. The smallpox samples are required to keep making vaccines, so the answer should be obvious.

3. It's meant to be optional.

The region of Equilism has decided to vote against this resolution for the following reasons:
1. The World Health Organization eradicated Smallpox in the 1970's... and as part of the UN, it has already DONE this;
2. This looks like another toothless "encouraging" document, with a suggestion that we all spend more on healthcare. The reference to bioweapons is bizzare, since the resolution doesn't address them or the thorny issue of whether government labs should destroy their smallpox samples; and
3. Nice Sentiment, no gears and it will cost money.
OOC: note to Moo-cows with guns: this is nationstates, not real life, thus there is no World Health Organisation (yet), and smallpox may or may not be eradicated. however, we agree this is toothless, as that more and more it is becoming that most of the proposal is covered in previous resolutions, and that, while noble, the eradication of smallpox is next to impossible

The World Health Organization eradicated Smallpox in the 1970's... and as part of the UN, it has already DONE this...The WHO doesn't exist in NS.

...this is toothless,...No, NSUN Members will be compelled to eradicate smallpox within their borders. That is not inconsequential. What is left to Members is the timing, strategy, etc. - and this is so that they can choose the one that is best for them.

The reference to bioweapons is bizzare, since the resolution doesn't address them...They've been addressed elsewhere.

No, NSUN will be compelled to eradicate smallpox within their borders. That is not inconsequential. What is left to Members is the timing, strategy, etc. - and this is so that they can choose the one that is best for them.
*puts the broken record on*
.... and it will mutate and come back in. thus we will have to go through all this again, then it will mutate, and come back again. ever wondered why the RL flu has not been eradicated?

"DECLARES ACCORDINGLY that all Member nations shall make a concerted effort to eradicate smallpox within their territory through the use of established disease eradication techniques, such as quarantine and vaccination, AND

FURTHER CALLS UPON all Member nations to increase health care spending accordingly to cover the costs of these measures,"

The Holy Emperor of St. Peter's Judgement Speaketh in regard to the Resolution at hand:

"This so-called resolution at hand is a travesty to our God. Innoculations have been deemed immoral in our borders and are only permitted in life saving, high priced, special case senarios. Forcing our nation to disobey the teachings of our Lord is an outrage. The United Nations has no right to tell us to sin against our Creator and Savior. Therefore, I vote against this resolution and urge all others to do the same."

*puts the broken record on*
.... and it will mutate and come back in. thus we will have to go through all this again, then it will mutate, and come back again. ever wondered why the RL flu has not been eradicated?
Keep in mind that the flu shots are always for last year's flu.

Again, the resolution mentions total eradication without regards for keeping samples to fall back on in case another outbreak occurs whether through natural causes or human meddling.

Therefore unless the resolution is amended to include such contingency, it should be not approved.

Otherwise what happens can be called the War of the Worlds scenario.

Keep in mind that the flu shots are always for last year's flu.
my point exactly. this will be open ended, it wont be eradicated, and i believe the other alternative, continual vacinations is already covered in Res #9.

This sounds like a great idea, on the surface. I do have some problems that I think are important to bring up. If the history of life on the planet has shown us anything, it proves that a class of bacteria cannot be completely destroyed. This brings up the fact that, if we get rid of all the samples we have in cryo-storage, we will have nothing to form a vaccine in the future, if we miss a few microbes in Africa, or something. I believe it would be more benificial to create a world-wide storage facility for samples of all virulent diseases and bacterium, that is highly gaurded and tightly sealed. In this way, should any disease mutate and our vaccines become useless, we can still find ways to make newer, better vaccines to disperse the problem.

I have not cast a vote yet, because I do not believe that this proposition is a good idea, AS WRITTEN. With some revisions, so that small samples of the bacterium are kept alive and in stasis, then this would be a better idea.

President G. Mulligan
The Dominion of Chewbaccian Wisdom
Jazz Region

This sounds like a great idea, on the surface. I do have some problems that I think are important to bring up. If the history of life on the planet has shown us anything, it proves that a class of bacteria cannot be completely destroyed. This brings up the fact that, if we get rid of all the samples we have in cryo-storage, we will have nothing to form a vaccine in the future, if we miss a few microbes in Africa, or something. I believe it would be more benificial to create a world-wide storage facility for samples of all virulent diseases and bacterium, that is highly gaurded and tightly sealed. In this way, should any disease mutate and our vaccines become useless, we can still find ways to make newer, better vaccines to disperse the problem.

I have not cast a vote yet, because I do not believe that this proposition is a good idea, AS WRITTEN. With some revisions, so that small samples of the bacterium are kept alive and in stasis, then this would be a better idea.

President G. Mulligan
The Dominion of Chewbaccian Wisdom
Jazz Region
The difference being that smallpox is a virus, not a bacterium. Also, the real-world comes to great aid in this case - we have already proved that smallpox can be eradicated. This isn't trying to do something that's never been done.

however, RomeW, you have to remember that this is NS, not RL, there for you cant rule out a mutation in the virus, especially if a non-NSUN state decides to experiment with it.

I understand the disconnect between NS and RL- however, if we're assuming that NS smallpox = RL smallpox (which is more or less what we've established), then the RL scientific fact that, as a DNA virus, it's less likely to mutate still stands here, because this smallpox is essentially the same thing. I understand that rogue states could develop their own variants of smallpox and make them even deadlier and harder to get rid of- but that's also a fear that can happen in RL. If nothing else, just remember that at least naturally smallpox isn't likely to mutate, and that may help to alleviate fears a little.

I understand the disconnect between NS and RL- however, if we're assuming that NS smallpox = RL smallpox (which is more or less what we've established), then the RL scientific fact that, as a DNA virus, it's less likely to mutate still stands here, because this smallpox is essentially the same thing. I understand that rogue states could develop their own variants of smallpox and make them even deadlier and harder to get rid of- but that's also a fear that can happen in RL. If nothing else, just remember that at least naturally smallpox isn't likely to mutate, and that may help to alleviate fears a little.
our scientists have looked into it and have proposed that it can mutate, by natural means and by others. one nation that we have an association with is looking more and more into the evolution of various deseases, and has studied smallpox, and has found that the variation they have can be easily manipulated, and is also easily mutated in some conditions.

our scientists have looked into it and have proposed that it can mutate, by natural means and by others. one nation that we have an association with is looking more and more into the evolution of various deseases, and has studied smallpox, and has found that the variation they have can be easily manipulated, and is also easily mutated in some conditions.

OOC: Res, to let you know that I wasn't making any of that stuff up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_virus

I bring up this quote:

All RNA viruses have very high mutation rates because they lack DNA polymerases which can find and edit out mistakes. DNA viruses have considerably lower mutation rates. (Personal commentary- This includes smallpox, a DNA virus)

Thus, your statement that smallpox can be "easily mutated" is incredibly inaccurate. I don't doubt that smallpox- like any disease- can be re-engineered by humans (which can still happen in RL)- however, the truth is that smallpox isn't as likely to mutate as HIV or Polio because of its genetic makeup.

OOC: Res, to let you know that I wasn't making any of that stuff up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_virus

I bring up this quote:



Thus, your statement that smallpox can be "easily mutated" is incredibly inaccurate. I don't doubt that smallpox- like any disease- can be re-engineered by humans (which can still happen in RL)- however, the truth is that smallpox isn't as likely to mutate as HIV or Polio because of its genetic makeup.
again, i shall state that this is nationstates, not real life. i am sure DLE could find some technology to manipulate it if they desire

again, i shall state that this is nationstates, not real life. i am sure DLE could find some technology to manipulate it if they desire

Yeah, but if we're arguing about a RL disease (which smallpox is- it is merely transplanted into the NS world like HIV was), then it makes sense to understand what the disease is like in RL. Again, I don't discount the ability of people to artificially alter smallpox- I am merely stating that naturally it is extremely unlikely.

Yeah, but if we're arguing about a RL disease (which smallpox is- it is merely transplanted into the NS world like HIV was), then it makes sense to understand what the disease is like in RL. Again, I don't discount the ability of people to artificially alter smallpox- I am merely stating that naturally it is extremely unlikely.
again, i state that, with the diversness of the nations, some not existing on the same planet as us, how are we to know it wont mutate elsewhere?

again, i state that, with the diversness of the nations, some not existing on the same planet as us, how are we to know it wont mutate elsewhere?

I never said it couldn't mutate- I simply said that it's unlikely. That doesn't mean that it does not happen. Skin cancer, for example, is actually a genetic mutation- and that's a DNA mutation. It's just not as common as RNA mutations, that's all.

(...and I'll grant you that on a different planet things may end up differently, but on Earth, which is where my nation is, that's the way smallpox plays out).

My concern is the HealthCare and Pharmaceuticals Industries.
If we erdicate smallpox, we'll have downsize or liquidate all the smallpox vaccine developers and producers.

That's an incredible job-loss. I think a good compromise would be to eliminate the current strain of the virus in all nations and maybe release a mutation every so often to infect the population of a 3rd world state. That way we could sell a new vaccine and capitalise.

And it's not such a bad PR exercise, unless we get caught.

Who speaks for the microorganisms?

Why spend valuable U.N. time and money getting rid of smallpox when we could be getting rid of A.I.D.S? Or building nuclear weapons to protect fragile and weakened states... oh wait.

This proposal and considers that all diseases should have separate NSUN resolutions with eradication programmes. One health resolution may be easy to repeal several or many will be much more difficult.

The first to be considered should be Tuberculosis because it is so easily spread through the air, it can incapacitate its victims for a long period before death thus increasing the risk of infection.

This disease is caused by a bacterium rather than a virus and has already shown the ability to mutate, is not yet wholly controlled by vaccines. Therefore the proposal will have to include research.

As we perfect the format of the "eradicate a disease" proposals each will become easier to pass objections will wane and all our people will become healthier and therefore wealthier.

I think eradication smallpox destroys too many good possibilities for germ warfare. That smallpox really packs a punch. I say we keep it, it's not like it's spreading like wildfire out there. It's relatively quiet right now.
peace out
-The Grand Duchy of United Jangos

This sounds like a great idea, on the surface. I do have some problems that I think are important to bring up. If the history of life on the planet has shown us anything, it proves that a class of bacteria cannot be completely destroyed. This brings up the fact that, if we get rid of all the samples we have in cryo-storage, we will have nothing to form a vaccine in the future, if we miss a few microbes in Africa, or something. I believe it would be more benificial to create a world-wide storage facility for samples of all virulent diseases and bacterium, that is highly gaurded and tightly sealed. In this way, should any disease mutate and our vaccines become useless, we can still find ways to make newer, better vaccines to disperse the problem.

I have not cast a vote yet, because I do not believe that this proposition is a good idea, AS WRITTEN. With some revisions, so that small samples of the bacterium are kept alive and in stasis, then this would be a better idea.

President G. Mulligan
The Dominion of Chewbaccian Wisdom
Jazz RegionThere's been a lot of debate on this question. Suffice it to say that many supporting nations do not believe that the destruction of all lab samples is required (the WHO did not do this in RL, and they did eradicate the disease for all intents and purposes (the RL threat is, in fact, precisely from those same lab samples).

The fact that the resolution does not speak to this issue combined with the way in which NSUN resolutions are promulgated (each nation changes its own laws to meet the mandate) guarantees that someone will have lab samples. More than likely, quite a lot of someones.

again, i shall state that this is nationstates, not real life. i am sure DLE could find some technology to manipulate it if they desireAnd if we didn't think that technology met our assessment of what is realistic, we'd be free to IGNORE it.

I think eradication smallpox destroys too many good possibilities for germ warfare. That smallpox really packs a punch. I say we keep it, it's not like it's spreading like wildfire out there. It's relatively quiet right now.
peace out
-The Grand Duchy of United JangosThank you for one of the best arguments in favor of the resolution yet offered. ;)

Yes it works for germ warfare but if we eradicate it they have to buy less effective conventunal arms, Forceing them to buy more I vote to eradicate this little problem.

If My region is in trouble i will help them out as for the Bio Wepons i feel they should be banned so yes i will vote FOR this one.

Although it is a glorious idea, I do not believe that total and utter annhilation of the Smallpox virus is possible, or even probable.

The costs of world wide distrubtion of the smallpox vaccine would costs more money than many counties with there current ecomony can handle. It is a great idea, but this will only lead to accuzations that people are going against the UN in not getting rid of smallpox, when they do not have any money to fund this project!!!

The costs of world wide distrubtion of the smallpox vaccine would costs more money than many counties with there current ecomony can handle. It is a great idea, but this will only lead to accuzations that people are going against the UN in not getting rid of smallpox, when they do not have any money to fund this project!!!Check my earlier estimates of the cost of eradication. Effectively, this would be the equivalent of a one-time expense of less than 1% of GDP, followed by an ongojng expense of less that .1% of GDP.

sounds good to me at least we arnt blowing eachother up or anything! :eek: :mp5:

The Support of the Federation of Betelguesean Exiles is whole heartedly given on the terms that Smallpox cases soon become next to nil. Such a disease should be within the parameters of our control on the basis of education and the foundries of modern medicine. We see no problem in this and hereby give our fullfaith in it's passing into legislation.

And if we didn't think that technology met our assessment of what is realistic, we'd be free to IGNORE it.
you wouldnt be ignoring it when it came across your border

also, does this mean that if we dont believe that smallpox realistically exists in nationstates, that we can simply ignore this proposal

No vaccine is without risk and i think its a very good thing that s any nations are coming together to help erradicate this awful illness. I wholeheartedly (check spelling) support the proposal despite what my region say.......................Xhang......................

Check my earlier estimates of the cost of eradication. Effectively, this would be the equivalent of a one-time expense of less than 1% of GDP, followed by an ongojng expense of less that .1% of GDP.
i would like to know where you are pulling these figures from, especially concidering the diverse economies of the NSUN. if the more wealthier nations are forced to prop up the least wealthier ones, the cost could be much greater than your prediction.

i would like to know where you are pulling these figures from, especially concidering the diverse economies of the NSUN. if the more wealthier nations are forced to prop up the least wealthier ones, the cost could be much greater than your prediction.From the fact that: Labor costs are directly proportional to GDP, the one number we use to measure poverty vs. prosperity.
The issues that poor countries get don't differ a great deal from the ones that rich countries get, suggesting similar social conditions across both sets of countries.
Continuing further with the issues, poor countries aren't necessarily poor because they lack infrastructure, especially w/re to medicine. There are a ton of poor countries out there with universal health care, universal college education, an abundance of doctors, etc.
NSUN proposals do not appear to hit richer countries harder than poorer ones; everyone's tax rate goes up by roughly the same amount as these things pass.
The proposal is rated mild.
The (RL) U.S. estimates were for $204 per person, less than 1% GDP. Of this amount, less than 2% ($4) was vaccine and supplies. The other 98% was labor (which takes us back to labor cost).
The RL eradication effort was not a signifcant burden on anyone's economy.
Show me data to gainsay this: show me why this will break the rich (or the poor), why the overall costs will be huge, etc. So far, I've seen nothing to suggest that.

The issues that poor countries get don't differ a great deal from the ones that rich countries get, suggesting similar social conditions across both sets of countries.
OOC: that is because this is game, and there are only a certain amount of variables
The (RL) U.S. estimates were for $204 per person, less than 1% GDP. Of this amount, less than 2% ($4) was vaccine and supplies. The other 98% was labor (which takes us back to labor cost).

The RL eradication effort was not a signifcant burden on anyone's economy.
again, this is a comparison to real-life. given the nature of NationStates, this could be vastly different to your calculations.

:sniper: :mp5: :gundge: What about certain nations keeping it in case of a terrorist organization using it in a biological wmd? we need to have it to study...

I'd like to be the very first to congratulate you on the passage of the UN's newest resolution!

OK, so I'm a bit early. But there's no realistic way this is going to fail.

It is assuring to know that a well placed title and emotional manipulation can still get a disasterous resolution passed.

The trend of the Nations in the UN is to approve every attractive proposal. I believe this is a dangerous situation where indivisual members lose their abilitities to choose how their own nation is governed. These proposals have such far reaching effects that we need to be more careful about what we accept.

This proposal is rediculous.

(OOC:Firstly you couldn't get any more creative than small pox )

This proposal would be wonderfully effective and would be hugely benificial if the entire world were affected, unfortunately for those proposing they forgot to consider the fact that a huge percentage of the world is not under UN control. Eradication is wholly dependant on every nation working together to destroy this horrible disease, unfortunately since this is not possible by only UN control making even the attempt pointless. If not every nation is going to participate then there is hardly a reason for the UN nations to participate, if infected peoples can freely pass borders then there is nothing stopping the continual spread from nations that are not affected by the proposal. Understanding that since non member nations are not forced to carry out the required precautions and vaccinations, only having member nations taken care of is a waste of UN time money and man power because of the lack of cntrol that allows possibly affected persons to move from areas not under UN control, to supposedly clean areas. Suggestions to make this more plausable as I see it are far fetched and extreme, either close borders, set up mandatory health checks between member and non member nations, or make UN membership mandatory, each as unlikely and unreasonable as the next.

(its late and i'm tired, follow that if you can)

I said it before, I'll say it again: Congratulations on thinking of it, negotiating it and sticking with it, Allemande.

I haven't been following the debate through every last twist, but in what I saw I think you did a great job keeping your cool and insisting that the actual resolution, rather than inflated versions of it, be discussed.

BTW, didn't someone say they couldn't see how the usual "infringes my national rights" argument could be brought into this one? *Sigh* Hope springs eternal.

And, in view of the current discussion about what should appear in serious threads, all praise to the new nation of Singlemaltwhisky for darting in humorously.

Ok, thank you Allemande for your clarification that laboratory samples can be kept. I vote that we now begin the germocide!

President G. Mulligan
The Dominion of Chewbaccian Wisodom
Jazz Region

I still don't understand why everyone is so tuned into the whole "Not everyone is in the UN" idea. Come people, understand that this is at least a first step towards something! The world is not going to turn upside down because of just one resolution! This is a slow proccess, heck it took people more than 1 thousand years to come up democracy, but at least they took the first step for their goals.

Okay, fine maybe a bad example, but the bottom line is if we don't start who will? If the great UN doesn't even pass this issue, then will the rest of the NU countries even discuss this issue?

And as for those who are complaining about the money. I still don't understand the irony, why don't everyone just take some of their money from their bio-weapons research projects, which is probably why small pox is still a threat to the survive of the human race, and donate some of that dirty money into researching for a vaccine humm? Isn't that a sound idea? Kill less save more, I bet your tax payers would be happy too, knowing that their good money is going into their livelyhoods.

Lastly, about the mutation. A vaccine is good as long as a virus does not exceed twenty points mutations. What does that mean? Well as long as a virus do not change its RNA or DNA coding more than twenty hundred times, the vaccine still works. And a average flu virus can usually mutate around 12-17 points mutations depending of its sequencing. And the HIV virus usually can mutate around 29-34 points so we can't cure that with a vaccine, and I won't get all complicated because I don't want to waste time so I'll leave you with this. The small pox virus has a 2 point mutation every year, that is if it is still alive or inactive in a host's body. Soi a vaccine can usually last around ten years, but by that time we can accumlate enough money to send out another vaccine. This proccess will continue until all orginal hosts are dead, which means all we need to do is to keep up an annual vaccine supply once every ten years and for the next 70 years. Once all the first generation hosts are gone, the small pox virus will be formally dead. However, thanks to our buddies who are all very interested in bio-warfare, this proccess might take longer. But at least we have a goal and this resolution is a first step towards that goal.

I still don't understand why everyone is so tuned into the whole "Not everyone is in the UN" idea. Come people, understand that this is at least a first step towards something! The world is not going to turn upside down because of just one resolution! This is a slow proccess, heck it took people more than 1 thousand years to come up democracy, but at least they took the first step for their goals.
well, concidering that less than a third of the total nationstates nations are in the NSUN, that kind of defeats this proposal, since it is based on eradication. not to mention a good deal of those that arent in the NSUN are hostile to it, and could possibly posess the technology to mutate the virus, it doesnt exactly bode well.


Originally Posted by Allemande
And if we didn't think that technology met our assessment of what is realistic, we'd be free to IGNORE it.

Replied to by Resistancia
you wouldnt be ignoring it when it came across your border

also, does this mean that if we dont believe that smallpox realistically exists in nationstates, that we can simply ignore this proposal
also there is this quote from the author and our reply too. if they are saying they can ignore the existance of technology, we could then ignore the existance of this virus, thus we wouldnt have to pay out Gil for this proposal.

BTW, didn't someone say they couldn't see how the usual "infringes my national rights" argument could be brought into this one? *Sigh* Hope springs eternal.I would call that prescient, but I think it just falls into the category of "been around the block." ;)

well, concidering that less than a third of the total nationstates nations are in the NSUN, that kind of defeats this proposal, since it is based on eradication. not to mention a good deal of those that arent in the NSUN are hostile to it, and could possibly posess the technology to mutate the virus, it doesnt exactly bode well.


also there is this quote from the author and our reply too. if they are saying they can ignore the existance of technology, we could then ignore the existance of this virus, thus we wouldnt have to pay out Gil for this proposal.Ignoring the existence of unrealistic technology is somewhat different than ignoring the existence of a RL virus.

The twin ideas that (a) things that exist in RL don't exist here because they exist in RL and (b) a technology that someone imagines, whether realistic or not, must be accepted by everyone as legitimate are batty, to say the least.

Ignoring the existence of unrealistic technology is somewhat different than ignoring the existence of a RL virus.

The twin ideas that (a) things that exist in RL don't exist here because they exist in RL and (b) a technology that someone imagines, whether realistic or not, must be accepted by everyone as legitimate are batty, to say the least.
not really, because reality check, this isnt reality, and as such, you technically invented smallpox in NS when you proposed this resolution, just like aids and such, so it is the same.

[edit] not to mention a nation that posts here in the NSUN just about got obliterated by dragons recently.....

not really, because reality check, this isnt reality, and as such, you technically invented smallpox in NS when you proposed this resolution, just like aids and such, so it is the same.If that's so, then any rogue nation could have invented smallpox the same way...

But starting tomorrow, if all goes well, we will be well on the way towards preventing that. And yes, I think we can get rid of it in much of the non-NSUN world, too.

And as for dragons, well, the fact that they exist in some fantasy realms doesn't mean we're all compelled to accept them elsewhere.

If that's so, then any rogue nation could have invented smallpox the same way...

But starting tomorrow, if all goes well, we will be well on the way towards preventing that. And yes, I think we can get rid of it in much of the non-NSUN world, too.

And as for dragons, well, the fact that they exist in some fantasy realms doesn't mean we're all compelled to accept them elsewhere.
as we have stated, and many of those in other threads here in the UN, the UN has many enemies that are not likly to bother with the contents of this proposal. also, as i stated, it was a NSUN nation that was attacked, so it is kinda hard to ignore that

[edit]also, by not accepting the existance of technologies and certain animals (dragons are know to extist within the TLA, an example being the Kiaonease Dragon) you are actually alienaiting those nations that posess them.

*the Ambassador from Mikitivity rises to the floor again*

Delegates,

I fear we've gotten off track and lost our perspective, because the existence of dragons (which my government continues to deny, included the Gebein Drache that was recently sighted on the border of Mikitivity and Sober Thought and that answers to the name Henrick ... he most certainly is just the figment of your imaginations, and my government is not at all responsible for the cows and tourists he eats) or little green men is not critical to this debate.

Will there be hold outs: nations where smallpox will continue to exist? Likely. Should we as an organization makes offers in peace to help these communities wipe out smallpox? My government thinks so, as it will help to protect us. Will many of these nations welcome UN aid? It doesn't matter, we'll try through the UN or through bi-lateral means to honor this resolution, which states (paraphrased) that nations that have the means to help others eradicate smallpox, should. My government remains firm in its support for this resolution (and again stresses that there is no flying creature named Henrick in Mikitivity).

OOC: A 17-page debate is good, but with mintues left in the vote its time to really consider closing thoughts. :)

~ a long draw on the hookah, a slow exhale. The representative from Vastiva rises from his seat and speaks ~

We find ourselves in the unenviable position of agreeing with the loudm... the representative from Mikitivity.

However the world may appear to other nations, we are host to that which turns science and common sense upon their collective ears on a daily basis. As such, does it not behoove us to accept their existance, else how can we react to what is before us?

There were those who denied that flight could exist - yet it does. There were those who denied that germs could exist - yet they do. With the passage of this resolution - for it shall pass, and well - as a collective group, every UN Nation shall have within it the mechanism for vaccination of it's entire populace. That the populace does not have to be informed of everything it is being immunized against is merely a happy coincidence.

~a bow of the head, he sits and draws again from the hookah~

*gaveling sound*
The SECRETARY-GENERAL. It having attained to the appropriate hour on the second day of April, 2005, voting is now closed on the resolution currently at vote. The Clerk will designate the resolution.

The READING CLERK. United Nations Resolution #98. Eradicate Smallpox, proposed by Allemande, a resolution to mildly improve worldwide human and civil rights.

The SECRETARY-GENERAL. The decision of the United Nations has been rendered thusly: The resolution Eradicate Smallpox was passed 12,215 votes to 3,377, and implemented in all UN member nations. The member nations of the United Nations will be immediately informed of the outcome of this vote.

*transmits the message to his government, pockets several bribes, and takes a long draw on his hookah*

My, yes, that was a most productive day...

*gaveling sound*
The SECRETARY-GENERAL. It having attained to the appropriate hour on the second day of April, 2005, voting is now closed on the resolution currently at vote. The Clerk will designate the resolution.

The READING CLERK. United Nations Resolution #98. Eradicate Smallpox, proposed by Allemande, a resolution to mildly improve worldwide human and civil rights.

The SECRETARY-GENERAL. The decision of the United Nations has been rendered thusly: The resolution Eradicate Smallpox was passed 12,215 votes to 3,377, and implemented in all UN member nations. The member nations of the United Nations will be immediately informed of the outcome of this vote.The United States of Allemande offers its thanks to the membership in taking this important first step in the fight againts variola.

We would also like to offer support to those who helped us in the debate. RomeW in particular deserves our gratitude; their knowledge of viral biology and genetic drift was important in identifying the challenges that lay before us.

We would also like to extend gratitude to those who debated against us, and Resistancia, in particular. Their doggedness brought out many issue that would not have otherwise been discussed, and the entire NSUN owes them much for that.

And, to the rest of you, for listening politely and contributing in a (mostly) positive way (we did get a few hate TG's, but those were easily deleted).

It has been a long debate. Time to rest. Enjoy your weekend, my fellow Ambassadors!

*transmits the message to his government, pockets several bribes, and takes a long draw on his hookah*

My, yes, that was a most productive day...

Yes. Im going to Have to go with that. :)