NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a proposal to do (Enviroment: all business).

The General Assembly of United Nations

Remembering resolutions #11 "Ban Single-Hulled Tankers", #34 "Oceanic Waste Dumping", #35 "Stop dumping - Start Cleaning", #50 "UN Space Consortium", #52 "Ballast Water", #74 "The Law of the Sea"

and recognizing the necessity to have a better safeguard of the global enviroment,

Solemny affirms that the next resources shall be considered as "Res communes omnium" (things of all).

Also proclaims that this resources can not be part of private property, with rights of exploitation that the property includes.

1) Water. With water are defined: rivers, lakes, seas and oceans.

2) Air.

3) North and South poles. Research bases are permitted, only if adeguates methods of exportation of rubbish are adopted, in order to maintain the integrity of their habitats.

4) Space and extra-terrestrial bodies. With Space is defined all things over the Stratosphere; extra-terrestrial bodies are planets, stars, nebulas, black holes and all other bodies still not discovered by Astrophysics.

Suggestion are welcome.

So what excatly is the proposal trying to achieve?

"...this resources can not be part of private property, with rights of exploitation that the property includes."

In this way nobody can sell air, demand ticket to navigate in a river or sell Mars soil

So the pond in my backyard is now open for anyone to walk up and use? You realize that now my insurance goes up unless I put an 8-foot fence around the pond so no little kids wander in and drown, right?

So the pond in my backyard is now open for anyone to walk up and use? You realize that now my insurance goes up unless I put an 8-foot fence around the pond so no little kids wander in and drown, right?

With water are defined: rivers, lakes, seas and oceans. Have you ever seen a private sea or river? Which I'm proposing is a normal law in every RL state.

"...this resources can not be part of private property, with rights of exploitation that the property includes."

In this way nobody can sell air, demand ticket to navigate in a river or sell Mars soil

What about the bottled water industry, then, if we can't sell these commodities?

I understand what you want to do, and I support it, but I think it needs to be rephrased a little, or go into more detail to iron out any complications.

Water is going to be the most difficult issue. Although you say it a river, for example, cannot be private property, is it then the proprty of a state? And if not, what can or can't a state do to that river? Especially if said river flows through many countries and eventually into a sea or ocean.

What about the bottled water industry, then, if we can't sell these commodities?

I understand what you want to do, and I support it, but I think it needs to be rephrased a little, or go into more detail to iron out any complications.

Water is going to be the most difficult issue. Although you say it a river, for example, cannot be private property, is it then the proprty of a state? And if not, what can or can't a state do to that river? Especially if said river flows through many countries and eventually into a sea or ocean.

Private property is different from State property, and the proposal is created to ensure that societies (or persons) aren't allowed to exploit something that must be to all (the State, more times). About borders rivers, I think that they are covered by the Law of the Sea.

4) Space and extra-terrestrial bodies. With Space is defined all things over the Stratosphere; extra-terrestrial bodies are planets, stars, nebulas, black holes and all other bodies still not discovered by Astrophysics.

Suggestion are welcome.

Ridiculous. Many, many NSUN nations already have companies that own "extra-terrestrial" bodies as defined by this proposal. You give no reason as to why they should not be privately owned, either. Actually, you don't give any reasons as to why any of the things you mention should not be privately owned.

And why in Bob's name should the south- and north-poles of planets be off-limits? Stop being so Earth-centric! Not all NSUN nations are situated on Earth.

Ridiculous. Many, many NSUN nations already have companies that own "extra-terrestrial" bodies as defined by this proposal. You give no reason as to why they should not be privately owned, either.

Simply because I want to know with which sovereign right you can claim the terrains.

With water are defined: rivers, lakes, seas and oceans. Have you ever seen a private sea or river?
No, but I have seen many private lakes.

Simply because I want to know with which sovereign right you can claim the terrains.

That not only doesn't make any sense, it's also not a reason.

And why in Bob's name should the south- and north-poles of planets be off-limits? Stop being so Earth-centric! No all NSUN nations are situated on Earth.
But all NSUN planets have poles, do they not?

But all NSUN planets have poles, do they not?

No. Not all nations are planets. And some planets have their most valuable resources concentrated to their poles.

That not only doesn't make any sense, it's also not a reason.

Private property is a limitation to the property of states. Then, only a state can claim an extraterrestrial terrain. And if you want to be a new state, you must have

1) a terrain
2) a population
3) a regime (democratic, totalitarian...)

But also you must be recognized by other states. I think that no one of states can recognize a corporation as state (ok, McDonald and Microsoft :) )

@AE: you mean small lakes, but I mean great lakes like Ontario and similar.

Private property is a limitation to the property of states. Then, only a state can claim an extraterrestrial terrain. And if you want to be a new state, you must have

1) a terrain
2) a population
3) a regime (democratic, totalitarian...)

But also you must be recognized by other states. I think that no one of states can recognize a corporation as state (ok, McDonald and Microsoft :) )

Again ridiculous.

First of all: There exist no such things as "McDonald's" and "Microsoft" in the NS universe. Secondly many nations are far more technologically advanced than you can even begin to imagine and hold territories of space so vast that it would be ridiculously frivolous of them not to allow privately owned businesses to own a planet or moon or nebula here or there.

And you still fail to produce any valid reason as to why none of the things you mention should be privately owned!

There is no such thing as "Ontario"!

Uff, you are very boring. And about the reason to not have the private property is that this things must be to all, because they must be usable for all.

Uff, you are very boring. And about the reason to not have the private property is that this things must be to all, because they must be usable for all.

Again, that is not a reason, and no, they must not at all be usable by all. Why should for instance a moon in a remote part of an empire spanning lightyears not be able to be privately owned and exploited?

Again, that is not a reason, and no, they must not at all be usable by all.

Ok, I want to see your face when I will sell to you my last air liter, when our atmosphere will be polluted

Ok, I want to see your face when I will sell to you my last air liter, when our atmosphere will be polluted

As far as I know, our nations do not share planets, nor do our populations breathe the same mixture of gasses (if they breathe at all!).

We also have the technology to purify and produce "air", which Fassian companies sell to nations who are in need of it and cannot produce it themselves.

Ah, UN is a World body. Then my ideas are right.

Ah, UN is a World body. Then my ideas are right.

The world is far bigger than you seem aware of.

Ah, UN is a World body. Then my ideas are right.
Huh?

Huh?

As said by NS UN page: The UN is the world's governing body. Membership is voluntary, but all member nations must abide by UN rules.

Then all things about other planets as nations and the exploitation of space are void.

As said by NS UN page: The UN is the world's governing body. Membership is voluntary, but all member nations must abide by UN rules.

Then all things about other planets as nations and the exploitation of space are void.

OOC: "World" != real life Earth. This is a va-de-soi of this forum and you'd do well to learn it before you make more newbie misstakes.

As said by NS UN page: The UN is the world's governing body. Membership is voluntary, but all member nations must abide by UN rules.

Then all things about other planets as nations and the exploitation of space are void.

Krioval has cities both on and off Earth. Passing this resolution would be disastrous to our economy unless Krioval became communist on paper, and then allowed "management" of the resources by "government agencies" (to be read: acquisition of the resources by individuals and corporations). Since that would generate more paper to add to our Constitution, using more paper kills trees, killing more trees is harmful to the environment, and this proposal is supposed to be saving the environment, Krioval must oppose this.

Lord Darvek Tyvok
UN Ambassador - Krioval
Regional Delegate - Chaotica

As said by NS UN page: The UN is the world's governing body. Membership is voluntary, but all member nations must abide by UN rules.

Then all things about other planets as nations and the exploitation of space are void.

"World" does not necessarily mean "planet"- it just means a large community that encompasses an entity of some sort. For example, "the sports world" encompasses everything that is sports-related, and the "business world" encompasses everything business-related. In terms of NationStates, the NS world encompasses every nation that is created in NS, which includes future-tech nations that base themselves as planets, or even as galaxies. Yes, "world" can be a synonym for "planet", but the two are not the exact same thing.

As said by NS UN page: The UN is the world's governing body. Membership is voluntary, but all member nations must abide by UN rules.

Then all things about other planets as nations and the exploitation of space are void.
Where, oh where is DLE when you need him? Believe me there are many nations located on other planets, in fact DLE rules over several.

3) North and South poles. Research bases are permitted, only if adeguates methods of exportation of rubbish are adopted, in order to maintain the integrity of their habitats.


We realize you are ignorant of the world around you, but as over 300 billion people live at the South Pole...

:eek:

That includes our nation.

In short, this nanybrak nonsense is absolute rubbish and should be treated as such. Preferably set around a stake with the proposer affixed to.

1) Water. With water are defined: rivers, lakes, seas and oceans.

How would water treatment fit into this? What if I didn't like the idea of water treatment for whatever reason, and opposed someone treating water on the other side of the planet because I could claim that that water is as much mine as it is theirs?

How would the use of water be regulated if no-one could be said to own it? Would industry be fined for polluting rivers and seas? Who would they pay the fine to?

2) Air.

The last time I checked aircraft use air, and pollute it. Air is required for any kind of combustion, and some firms use air to extract things like nitrogen and oxygen. You would probably need to specify how you will regulate the use of air for things like these.

Also see the last paragraph regarding 'water'.

3) North and South poles.

How is a pole defined (degrees latitude)?

4) Space and extra-terrestrial bodies. With Space is defined all things over the Stratosphere

Does this mean you couldn't privately own (artificial) satellites? Also, what if people worked out how to mine things like asteroids. Would such resources be denied to us?

This is becoming quite the farce. We cannot approve such an obviously flawed proposal.

~UN Representative for Neo-Anarchists~

This resolution could be improved if water supplies are put into the hands of the state in which the water is found, so they can be regulated as the state wishes. If there is a river which runs along the border of two states, those states would have to agree on how the water was to be used. The oceans could be regulated by the UN, if no-one else claims ownership to them (e.g. states which exist in island chains might want control of the water channels that run between the islands).

Air could be put under control of the UN. It isn't suitable for state control because pollution emitted in one state will eventually make its way around the entire atmosphere. Regulations on what can be emitted into the atmosphere would have to be set up, and perhaps firms would have to apply for licenses to use large amounts (defined as >100t per day or something) of air.

I don't see why the poles should be considered somehow sacred. They are as much a part of a planet as anywhere else. If certain areas need to be set aside for research purposes (anywhere in the world), then the UN could supervise the regulation of those areas.

As far as space goes, the regulations should perhaps only apply to natural objects (i.e. not satellites or spacecraft) which aren't already controlled by someone. The UN could provide licenses for using resources found in space, to avoid exploitation (although why exploitation would cause any major problems is unclear).

This is probably too much for just one resolution. Maybe one issue should be tackled at a time.

This is insanity and trash. Nothing more.

Obviously the proposer has never studied even basic geography and international politics.

Considering I own 1/16 of the Milky Way, this does affect me greatly.

Not all UN nations are on Earth. The DLE Empire, which includes the UN nation of Tiamat Taveril, isn't even native to the planet and, except for a small holding leftover from when someone really got on our bad side, has no territory in the Sol System. Not only that, but I own massive numbers of star systems and have three inhabitable worlds under my domain. And you don't want to see the ships designed to back those territorial holdings.

Perhaps when you realize the UN's authority is not just limited to your version of Earth, you'll realize how far it does reach.

This is insanity and trash. Nothing more.

Obviously the proposer has never studied even basic geography and international politics.

[OOC] Actually, there are currently laws in the real world concerning the "Global Commons".

Pot. Kettle.

I do think the proposal needs alot of work done however. The ideas behind it are not so ludicrous, it just needs to be adapted to apply to mulitnational worlds/planets, and set ups where people live on the poles, etc. Perhaps by having an initial clause stating that wherever many states/nations share a planet, and have need of the same basic global commons... blah blah...

I think the water issue especially needs exploring in detail. It is a very complicated issue and (OOC:) (in the real world at least and so probs in NS) (IC) water issues may soon become a major conflict point if water resources continue to dwindle in certain areas. Water management schemes may well be affected by this proposal and it is vital that they cannot be exploited or that they are too inhibiting.

[OOC] Actually, there are currently laws in the real world concerning the "Global Commons".

Pot. Kettle.

I do think the proposal needs alot of work done however. The ideas behind it are not so ludicrous, it just needs to be adapted to apply to mulitnational worlds/planets, and set ups where people live on the poles, etc. Perhaps by having an initial clause stating that wherever many states/nations share a planet, and have need of the same basic global commons... blah blah...

I think the water issue especially needs exploring in detail. It is a very complicated issue and (OOC:) (in the real world at least and so probs in NS) (IC) water issues may soon become a major conflict point if water resources continue to dwindle in certain areas. Water management schemes may well be affected by this proposal and it is vital that they cannot be exploited or that they are too inhibiting.

We would point out to the delegate - both poles are well-occupied.

The rest of the matter concerns us not at all - we have the largest holding of fresh water on the planet (bottled water makes good money at low cost, and have you seen what a desert pays for an iceberg?), air appears plentiful, and the rest - the rest is there.

That the proposer seeks to have over 300 billion people leave their ancestral homes because he flunked basic geography and political science remains a stick in our craw.

We would point out to the delegate - both poles are well-occupied.

How so? The North Pole on Earth is in the water.

How so? The North Pole on Earth is in the water.

Certain truckdrivers make big money by driving over that ice...

How so? The North Pole on Earth is in the water.
Hmmm. Unless Global warming has really sped up, I thought it was covered by an ice shelf?

Or you could have people living beneath the Arctic Ocean.

Hmmm. Unless Global warming has really sped up, I thought it was covered by an ice shelf?

Or you could have people living beneath the Arctic Ocean.

Well, technically speaking, it's underwater and it's not on land, though perhaps if the ice is think enough you may get people able to live on it.

OOC: DLE, do people really drive on the North Pole?

OOC: DLE, do people really drive on the North Pole?

What do you think my father did for a living?

Then came that one day the ice was a little thin... Luckily he was heavily insured and I happened to hate the guy.

What do you think my father did for a living?

Then came that one day the ice was a little thin... Luckily he was heavily insured and I happened to hate the guy.

Oh. Sorry. I never knew your father was a trucker...there's quite a few threads here that I miss. Sorry to hear you two didn't get along though.

How so? The North Pole on Earth is in the water.

In the first place, we create undersea domes. People live in them. As we note in our "imaginary reference" the US Navy was doing that (and admitting it somewhat) as far back as 1970...

Secondly, nowhere in the toilet pap... er... document does it restrict the ban to the north and south pole of Earth. We like our moon base, thank you. And on some of those moons, it would be impossible not to be at a pole due to irregular rotation and revolution.