NationStates Jolt Archive

The following is just a first draft of the rules and workings of the Pretenama Panel. Opinions, suggestions, criticism, ideas, additions: all welcome. Wanted even. I will edit this as amendments are agreed upon, so it will be a continually developing document. This allows it to build on real life experience, such as the intervention in Loratana.

NB: This won’t be a UN proposal, as it would be against UN rules, another reason why much of it couldn’t appear in the recent HI proposal. It would however (maybe) be a sticky in the UN forum for role-playing use.

NB2: The Eon Convention defines some of the basic features of TPP, and as it is a UN resolution, these cannot be changed. At least not excessively- in the case of humanitarian intervention the panel would have to work slightly differently.

The Pretenama Panel (TPP)

1. Definition
2. Selection
2.1 Eligibility for Selection
2.2 The Selection Process
3. Investigation and Intervention
3.1 Panel jurisdiction
3.2 Voting Mechanics
4. Legal Proceedings


1.0 Definition

In the case of an appeal for humanitarian intervention, as stated in UN Resolution #92 on Humanitarian Intervention:
[Cases of genocide] may be brought to the UN’s attention by any coalition of nations (minimum of 2) with a plan for intervention. The case will then be assessed by a Pretenama Panel.

As stated in the Eon Convention on Genocide (UN Res. #83)]
§1. TPP is a body that can be instituted by the UN when it requires it. It is not a standing panel, but one that is created when the UN requires its services. More than one TPP can be operational at the same time.
§2. TPP is made up of representatives from fifteen UN member nations. These representatives must be diplomats, or lawyers. Each nation can supply only two members to TPP. No nation can serve on more than one TPP at the same time. The members of TPP can be challenged by those accused as well as the accusers, as the independence of TPP is paramount.

2.0 Selection

2.1 Eligibility for Selection
• Members of the panel must be members of the UN.
• The nations requesting permission for humanitarian intervention may not sit on the panel themselves.
• Of the fifteen nations on the panel, no two may be from the same region, i.e. nations of fifteen different regions must be represented.
• Of the fifteen nations on the panel, no two may be from the same multi-national empire, and nations belonging to such a setup (or similar) must declare it.
• No other nations from the accused or the accusing nations' region may sit on the panel.
- No nation may sit on more than one Pretenama Panel at the same time
- Nations must have been added to the list for at least 2 weeks before they can sit on a panel (to prevent last minute subscribing after an appeal has been made)

2.2 The Selection Process
Below this document is a list of UN members who have declared themselves willing to sit on *any* future Pretenema Panel. When it is necessary to form a panel, fifteen nations will be randomly selected from this list, using the Mikitivity Random Selection Procedure (see page 2). If there are any rule violations on such picks, e.g. 2 nations from the same region, only the first nation to be chosen will remain on the panel.


Of the 15 nations chosen, one is to be elected Chair. Candidates must be proposed and seconded, and then put to a vote. The candidate with the most votes will chair. In the case of a two way tie, votes for any candidates other than the two-tied nominees will be redistributed. In the event of a 3 way tie (5 votes each), the vote will be retaken (considering just those 3 nominees that are tied) except instead of just voting for the chair, they have to rank the 3 nominees in order of preference 1 2 or 3. Then, IF there is a tie again (someone may change their vote to break the tie), obviously each nominee will have 5 first votes each, but the number of second votes will then be counted. If there is still not an outright winner, then the 2 nominees who got the most votes in that round will be considered in a final vote, resulting in an outright winner.

2.2.1 The Veto System
Once the panel has been established, there will be the chance to veto the participation of certain members. A maximum of four nations (4/15) can be substituted with replacement nations (from the list). The vetos shall be divided as such: 2 veto votes shall be allocated to the accused nation; and 2 veto votes shall be allocated to the accusing nations. However, the elcted Chair is exempt from this process and may not be vetoed off the panel.

3.0 Intervention and Investigation
• §1. Member Nations are required to submit to an investigation ordered by TPP instituted by an accusation of Genocide. If no evidence is found, TPP is disbanded. If evidence is found, TPP will proceed to form a strategy for intervention.
• TPP will be advised by impartial and independent human rights experts, (e.g. from human rights international non-governmental organisations,) but it will be the UN committee who votes on whether an action is appropriate.
• TPP will meet only in the UN forum, with all discussions posted in order that all members may examine the evidence and conclusions, allowing for greater accountability and transparency.

3.1 Panel Jurisdiction
• The Panel has 3 purposes:
Stage 1) To establish whether there are grounds for intervention (i.e. genocide/ethnic cleansing is occurring) by examining evidence provided by the accusing coalition and human rights organisations, as well as hearing the accused nation’s defence.
• Stage 2) If it is agreed that there are grounds for intervention, the panel will then assess the plans for intervention, and will establish a list of goals and targets for the operation. They may also forbid certain actions. Any decisions should be based upon upholding the ideals of proportionality, consequence and motive. All actions must aim only at ending the genocide and restoring order, and excessive or unnecessary means should not be used.
• Stage 3) TPP will then decide on the post-intervention obligations of each of the intervening nations. These could include all aspects of peace-, state- and nation-building; including but not limited to maintenance of order, infrastructure repairs, medical aid, etc.
• If intervention is approved and commences, TPP may at any point provide further guidelines, especially if circumstances change dramatically. TPP may at any time choose to withdraw intervening forces, especially if they abuse their role and/or ignore TPP’s guidelines.

3.2 Voting Mechanics
• Each stage requires taking a vote before moving onto the next stage. Each vote requires a 2/3 majority to pass. Therefore at least 10 of the 15 nations must vote in favour.

4.0 Legal Proceedings
• TPP will act in accordance to UN resolutions, and their guidelines and goals for intervention will incorporate these.
• Members of TPP (And of the intervening coalition) are prohibited from getting reparations or spoils of war.
• Any post-intervention state-building must be done in the best interest of the state in question. Intervening nations may not use this as an opportunity to unduly promote their own businesses and economies.


What have I missed??

Below is a list of UN members willing to participate in *any* future Pretenama Panels. To be added, please post on this thread or telegram Gwenstefani. Remember, you must be a UN member, and please declare both what region you are from as well as if you belong to a multinational state or empire. In the listings, the first name is that of the nation, the second in brackets is their region.

1) The Tragic Kingdom of Gwenstefani, (Gay)
2) The Confederated City States of Mikitivity, (International Democratic Union)
3) The Commonwealth of Zamundaland, (Lavinium)
4) The Free Land of McGonagall, (the South Pacific)
5) The United Socialist States of Nargopia, (Bowdigity)
6) The Dictatorship of the Irish Brotherhood, (Munster)
7) The Rouge Nation of Neo-Anarchists, (Gay)
8) The Cloud-Water Community of Ecopoeia, (Anticapitalist Alliance)
9) The Federation of Grosseschnauzer, (International Democratic Union)
10) The Hidden Vale of Loratana, (CENA) of the Democratic States of Loratana.
11) The Annexed State of Tiamat Taveril, (the South Pacific), of the DemonLordEnigma Empire.
12) The Grand Duchy of YGSM, (the Isle of Lesbos)
13) The Republic of The Roman UN Puppet, (The New Roman Empire), of the Roman Empire.
14) The Armed Republic of Krioval, (Chaotica)
15) The Hibernian Kingdom of Venerable libertarians, (The Realm of Hibernia).
16) The Great Kingdom of Peachydom, (Q102).
17) The Free Land of Bitewaldi, (User Friendlia).
18) The Kingdom of New Matrex, (Mercia The Next Generation).
19) The Colony of Magna Cartman, (The Land of the Free).
20) The Democratic Republic of Fatus Maximus, (The Keepers).
21) The Kingdom of Trowk, (Dextromethorphania).
22) The Sultanate of Vastiva, (Antarctica).
23) The Queendom of Rysonia, (Equilism).
24) The Federation of Republic of Freedonia, (Civfanatica).
25) The Dominion of Cobdenia, (Liberal Atlantic Organisation).
26) The Triumviracy of Enn, (The Order of Valiant States).
27) The Free Land of Ardchoille, (Zhaucauozian Friendship).
28) The Fiefdom of Deus Imperius, (Federal Commonwealth Society).

At present, I cannot think of anything that has been missed, except maybe the "double jeopardy" subsection in Resolution 83 that may not have a convenient workaround. Then again, I think with the supermajority of two-thirds required for each stage of discussion will help toward eliminating frivolous claims.

If I might add one other point, I'd ask that the panel not seat nations from the region(s) of the accusers (you already have that they can't be on the panel if they're in the same region as the accused - that's good!).

Very nicely done, and thank you for taking our "demonstration" in the spirit in which it was intended.

If I might add one other point, I'd ask that the panel not seat nations from the region(s) of the accusers (you already have that they can't be on the panel if they're in the same region as the accused - that's good!).

I had meant to do that- consider it edited.


Very nicely done, and thank you for taking our "demonstration" in the spirit in which it was intended.

It could all have been done theoretically of course, but now poor Loratana lies in ruins... All over an exagerration of the effects of passive smoking on children. Funny as hell, but a wee shame.

Seriously, I was aware of the limitations of the proposal, but these were mainly just due to trying to keep it of a decent length. If people agree to this definition of TPP then that kind of abuse won't be able to happen.

I submit, for the benefit of the UN and Loratana, that no military interventions actually occurred, no government ministers were caged or lashed with trout, and their economy remains intact. The fact that all of those things proposed could have happened was the entire point. I honestly don't think that Krioval would have stood for invading a country based on a dispute as to the effects of secondhand smoke on children.

(OOC: I laughed for two straight hours doing that. I'm glad that it's being corrected though. Guess it goes to show that the most eloquent words pale in comparison to a demonstration! :D )

NB: This won’t be a UN proposal, as it would be against UN rules, another reason why much of it couldn’t appear in the recent HI proposal. It would however (maybe) be a sticky in the UN forum for role-playing use.
We're very reluctant to create new stickies on the forums, but I have added it as a link within the newly revamped United Nations Resolution Writing Guide (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=342360) sticky. It's in post #3.

In the respect of the random hat thing, maybe nations who submit themselves get put in the hat? OR if the hat is for getting nations in here in the first place, well...that's not good.

Maybe a cut off date for nation's activness, and other restrictions like that will let the random selections have some method in their madness.

Would those changes be considered illegal since they are only clarifying, rather than modifying, something in a previous resolution? I honestly don't know (even after having read the sticky in question) enough to judge. Maybe we could call it a "mild" resolution and tack it up there like the resolution that clarified what defined a "fair trial"?

Would those changes be considered illegal since they are only clarifying, rather than modifying, something in a previous resolution? I honestly don't know (even after having read the sticky in question) enough to judge. Maybe we could call it a "mild" resolution and tack it up there like the resolution that clarified what defined a "fair trial"?

I don't think there's any way this can be put forward as a UN proposal. Rather it will just have to be used in the UN forum and referred to for role-playing purposes. The thing about the 2 UN resolutions that refer to TPP is that they don't go into very much detail about how it works, so I think it's fair to establish that in this forum, especially if TilEnca agrees with this structure, as TPP was her invention, and I just borrowed it for my proposal.

Moderator confirmation on this would be helpful...

From here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8209494&postcount=314) and here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8209769&postcount=317):

Are we allowed (by game rules) to make a proposal defining how the Pretenama Panel works since it is mentioned in past resolutions?
Speaking as a Forum Mod, I have no true voice in the UN moderation aspect. I can say with some authority as a long time poster in UN that there are other options.

I'd suggest creating a roleplay Pretenama Panel thread, and define your own rules. As long as it's RP and player-created, it's by-definition outside the realm of content moderation. Such a player-created panel could define their own set of rules, modify them to suit as often as necessary, seat Member Nations on the panel, hold votes, arrange for interventions, and so on.

As long as it remains roleplay and makes no attempt to enforce those rules on unwilling nations (as opposed to nations roleplaying being unwilling), I think you'd be complety safe. A wildly successful TPP topic could even possibly join the UN Strangers Bar as a sticky thread.

If you attempt to define this in terms of a proposal, I think you're entering a minefield with no clear path. It's just about impossible on so many levels. Stick with RP, and you're fine.

RP is the problem - EON specifically says there can be multiple TPP's functioning at the same time, and there is no central body to organize them or decide what member nationstates can serve on them.
Multiple TPPs is no problem. You can have seperate threads, though I'd think one would be better (given the number of active participants in UN). Your central thread could also contain a repository of links to TPPs that are set up in International Incidents, which is probably the proper place for a large one to play out. It's quite safe to assume that there are probably always 'background' TPPs going on with the other 36,419 nations that don't post here.

Also, there's nothing wrong with organizing a Steering Committee designated to create a checklist of TPP "suggestions". Each could follow its own variant of the unofficial rules, but I guarantee that such an 'unoffical resource' would be quite useful for future TPPs.

Don't look at it as a problem, look at it as an opportunity.
The preceeding has been an unoffical opinion.

*sniff*

This was going to be MY first resolution!

*runs out of room crying*


My initial thoughts:

3.1 is the only thing here that contradicts anything from EON, and it's not important to the proposal. leave it as a 2-stage process and we're perfectly in sync with EON.

2.2 Needs to be written.

2.1 Needs to mention no nation may sit on two Pretenama's at the same time.


We need to get UN Gnomes adjudication on why this would be problematic as a resolution. (no offense, fris)

*sniff* This was going to be MY first resolution!

We need to get UN Gnomes adjudication on why this would be problematic as a resolution. (no offense, fris)
None taken.

If you want to get a game mod to look at your proposal, write it first. Then get the UN forum regulars to beat on it until it's bulletproof. Then, bring it up in moderation. They aren't going to bother until you have something on paper, as it were.

That the disputants having being made fully aware of the members of the panel be allowed to object to a maximum of three each (20%) of the panel at the start of the enquiry.

This opportunity being given by the Chairman/Foreman? (elected?) of the panel announcing that the "Panel is convened does either nation object to any member of the panel present? You have x minutes to object" (x being a variable but a reasonable time for communication decided by that panel)

Should both parties wish to object to any members. We suggest that this may be done one at a time with the choice for dismissal of the panel member from accuser being taken first. Then taking turns to object, as the onus should be on the accuser to prove guilt.

Either party could possibly have a dispute with a panel member or strong objections to their views or politics and this suggestion is to give both disputants equal control in the make up of the panel and allay any suspicion of unfairness.

These are then replaced by the next on the list so the disputants would have to use their three vetos very carefully as any reserve to that particular panel would not be introduced until after the first objection. Once introduced the disputants could of course be objected to by either party immediately but would count as one of the 20% allowed.

Neither party will have to give any reason for any of their objections and we recognise that the Chairman/Foreman could be deselected immediately so the panel would then have to decide on a new Chairman/Foreman after this objection process is completed.

A stripped down version of this post could be posted at the start of the trial as part of the reading of the disputants rights.

My initial thoughts:

3.1 is the only thing here that contradicts anything from EON, and it's not important to the proposal. leave it as a 2-stage process and we're perfectly in sync with EON.


How is 3.1 contradictory to the Eon Convention? I don't see why the 3 stages of the process violate it.

That the disputants having being made fully aware of the members of the panel be allowed to object to a maximum of three each (20%) of the panel at the start of the enquiry.

This opportunity being given by the Chairman/Foreman? (elected?) of the panel announcing that the "Panel is convened does either nation object to any member of the panel present? You have x minutes to object" (x being a variable but a reasonable time for communication decided by that panel)

Should both parties wish to object to any members. We suggest that this may be done one at a time with the choice for dismissal of the panel member from accuser being taken first. Then taking turns to object, as the onus should be on the accuser to prove guilt.


Do you approve of the changes I have made? I altered your ideas slightly. I thought allowing 3 vetoes each to all those involved was excessive. The randomisation process should already have removed any bias, as well as the rule that members of the same region as those already involved cannot sit on the panel. Thus on the offchance that a biased member does get through this process, one veto has been allocated to all parties (3 in total). However, if people disagree with this, let me know, and McGonagall, if you object to the changes I've made, I'm happy to discuss it

Maybe a cut off date for nation's activness, and other restrictions like that will let the random selections have some method in their madness.


Interesting. For example, to initally reduce the number of potential candidates, only those active within the past 48 hours could be on the panel, (arguably in an attempt to speed up the affair).

2.2 EON doesn't provide for a supermajority of the panel to kick off one unpopular member. I agree with EON on this.

3.0 Make clear that you mean Genocide by the country under Humanitarian Intervention. This section doesn't necessarily apply against TPP's brought against individuals as in the original EON.

The other changes you made are really good. I still think there's a basis for a resolution in this.

Interesting. For example, to initally reduce the number of potential candidates, only those active within the past 48 hours could be on the panel, (arguably in an attempt to speed up the affair).

A number of nations go inactive on the weekends. I'd recomment that 72 hours be the *minimum* inactivity period, though I feel that having an activity requirement of just once a week is good enough.

The panel isn't supposed to host / organize the panel, just make decisions?

As for getting more nations on the active roster, my government feels that when this proposed setup approaches a consensus of nations here that we could invite feeder nations to participate. In March my government will be able to assist in this effort to a greater extent, but current our resources are taxed dealing with the massive storm which wrecked havok on Mikitivity. Unfortunately the death toll was higher than acceptable, so naturally the government is focused on domestic affairs in the mean time.

Normally the judges in a case would not have the right to veto any of their members.

I suggest that defendant and accuser be given two vetos each, they may not use either, just one or both. They would not know the replacements until they objected so would not object unecessarily in case the replacement is found to be a worse option.

I chose three first because it is a fraction of 15, (6/15) but I recognise that the panel views could be completely changed by so many. So for balance I now think four vetos is enough (4/15). With the chairman being safe from the process at all times.

Normally the judges in a case would not have the right to veto any of their members.

I suggest that defendant and accuser be given two vetos each, they may not use either, just one or both. They would not know the replacements until they objected so would not object unecessarily in case the replacement is found to be a worse option.

I chose three first because it is a fraction of 15, (6/15) but I recognise that the panel views could be completely changed by so many. So for balance I now think four vetos is enough (4/15). With the chairman being safe from the process at all times.

My government agrees with this. We'd also recommend that nations on the panel also have the right to excuse themselves if there later on is a conflict of interest and thus feel that alternates should be accomidated for.

Ok, I have removed the right of the committee to veto another member, and have instead allocated 2 votes each to the accusing and accused nations, as suggested.

What I still need help with is:

1) A foolproof way of randomly selecting nations to sit on the panel. OOC. As in if we were to RP it.

2) What to do in a 3 way tie of 5 votes each to elect a chair.

And any other problems of course.

What I still need help with is:

1) A foolproof way of randomly selecting nations to sit on the panel. OOC. As in if we were to RP it.

2) What to do in a 3 way tie of 5 votes each to elect a chair.

And any other problems of course.

1) I am thinking initial letters of the nation (or their regions?), the first panel being made up of nations beginning with the letters ACEGIKMOQSUWYBD the next panel by FHJLNPRTVXZACEG. To do this I made two columns of letters AB,CD,EF etc worked down the first column until Y then took the first two of the next to make up the fifteen. Following panels continue from there. So the third would be IKMOQSUWYBDFJL. If no one can be found from any letter or there is a clash of regions use the next letter in the list i.e. if no suitable nation with initial L could be found in the third panel, a nation with N would take a place.The fourth panel would then start PRTVXZA......helping to randomise the process.

Reserves would come from the first three letters of the make up of any panel so panel ones reserves would be nations starting with AC & E with GI & K being asked if no one from the first three was available etc.

2) Proposed chairpersons would not vote in their selection. There would only be two nominees maximum allowed.

Ok, I have removed the right of the committee to veto another member, and have instead allocated 2 votes each to the accusing and accused nations, as suggested.

What I still need help with is:

1) A foolproof way of randomly selecting nations to sit on the panel. OOC. As in if we were to RP it.

2) What to do in a 3 way tie of 5 votes each to elect a chair.

And any other problems of course.

Well, the way California hands the order of names for ballots is the Secretary of State (the old guy quit when the FBI started investigating him) and then names / order is determined alphabetically.

Let's say that we hold a drawing ...

F
O
W
Q
P
I
M
L
Z
E
R
etc.

And let's say that we have a few nations:

Mollyland
Piglatinstein
Pow-Wow-Wow
Persia

The priorty would be:
Pow-Wow-Wow
Piglatinstein
Persia
Mollyland

P comes before M, putting the three P's in the first queue. O comes before I, and I before E, so Pow-Wow-Wow gets top seating.

The random sampling of letters can be easily generated by pulling the clock time from the first 26 posts and then going down a table to find matching letters in a way similar to how random number tables are generated. It would be completely random. Although the hours are set by various users local time zones, the minutes on the forum are uniform. To fit the minutes into a 27-character order (treating non-alpha characters as a wildcard and first queue), we'd want to normalize the minutes ... this would be far easier if we actually defined four non-alphabetic characters, say: numerics, underscores (like _Mypoia_), dashes, and the other wildcards, as our 27, 28, 29, and 30. Then the post of the creation of the panel will determine the chair order.

Of course, knowing the minute of a post, a nation could try to time a post ...

I know this sounds terribly complicated, but it isn't really. You just need to create your random lookup table a few times and then it becomes old hat. Or another method could be found -- I just like using the game to generate our somewhat random numbers. :)

Thankyou both for your suggestions, and I think in this case Mikitivity's idea will work best since it is more exact- everytime a panel is formed, every nation will be considered in the selection, whereas McGonagall's solution has some nations unable to be used for long periods of time until there letters come back around. However, your ideas about what to do in the case of a 3 way tie are helpful. The only problem then is that if you start to limit the number of nominees, how is consensus reached on who these are?

The chance of the situation arising is remote, and I'm tempted to leave it up to the Panel to sort out, but then, it is the kind of thing which could bring progress to a stand still before the panel has even been assembled, and in cases of genocide we can't afford to waste any time.

Perhaps in the case of a 3 way tie, the vote could be retaken (considering just those 3 nominees that are tied) except instead of just voting for the chair, they have to rank the 3 nominees in order of preference 1 2 or 3. Then if there is a tie again (cos someone might change their vote to break the tie), obviously each nominee will have 5 first votes each, but the number of second votes will then be counted, and hopefully here there will be a difference- and even if there is not an outright winner, then at least we can get down to 2 nominees, and then we can have a final vote based on just those two, resulting in an outright winner.

I'm also going to add in a rule saying that members cannot nominate themselves or vote.

I suggest a moderator (or several moderators) does the randomization, since they're impartial.

I suggest a moderator (or several moderators) does the randomization, since they're impartial.

But that all depends on wheter they're free and willing. I imagine they have alot more pressing matters to attend to. Besides, just by being a moderator does not make them impartial. They have politics, and friends, too.

I do think that Mikitivity's randomisation process will work- it is not easily tampered with, and their is transparancy and accountability throughout the process. Any attempts to affect the outcomes will be noticed.

From how I understand it, Mikitivity's system involves assigning a letter to an hour each day (meaning that, say, at 2PM nations starting with "P" would get priority). It's a nice idea but can be flawed- nations could "delay" the announcement of problems until a favourable nation gets in queue. That's why I said have a moderator do it, because they're supposed to be impartial, though I understand their time constraints.

Another problem you're going to have is with multination empires. That's where the nation on the panel and the nation asking for intervention could be run by the same government but actually classified as two different nations. They are rare, but not rare enough for me to have not used one as a basis for the DLE Empire.

One more danger: Attempting to enforce jurisdiction. DLE, for example, you can pretty much only get access to with permission or the largest military in existance. If you ask the government for permission to enter, it merely cleans up the crime scenes while taking you around the scenic route. If you don't, your investigators meet the lovely power of automated defenses that won't bother to ask you questions before killing you.

Another problem you're going to have is with multination empires. That's where the nation on the panel and the nation asking for intervention could be run by the same government but actually classified as two different nations. They are rare, but not rare enough for me to have not used one as a basis for the DLE Empire.

One more danger: Attempting to enforce jurisdiction. DLE, for example, you can pretty much only get access to with permission or the largest military in existance. If you ask the government for permission to enter, it merely cleans up the crime scenes while taking you around the scenic route. If you don't, your investigators meet the lovely power of automated defenses that won't bother to ask you questions before killing you.

Well, no region can have more than two nations on the panel, and the regions of the accusing and accused nations cannot sit on the panel, so that may solve some of the conflicts.

Well, no region can have more than two nations on the panel, and the regions of the accusing and accused nations cannot sit on the panel, so that may solve some of the conflicts.

Tiamat Taveril and DemonLordEnigma are in separate UN regions, and yet Tiamat Taveril is one of the nations the DLE Empire annexed when first forming. The reason for that is amounts to my liking the ability to submit proposals.

Those rules are barely even an inconvenience, let alone a way of actually attempting to stop the problem. But, if you'll excuse me, I have abuses of thne Humanitarian Intervention resolution to set up.

Tiamat Taveril and DemonLordEnigma are in separate UN regions, and yet Tiamat Taveril is one of the nations the DLE Empire annexed when first forming. The reason that is amounts to my liking the ability to submit proposals.

Those rules are barely even an inconvenience, let alone a way of actually attempting to stop the problem. But, if you'll excuse me, I have abuses of the Humanitarian Intervention resolution to set up.

I see.

To address DLE's issues:

Firstly, we can add a clause stating that governments with multiple states cannot have more than one of these states on the panel. However, only one of these states should be a UN member anyway, so therefore more than one could not be on the panel. Besides, your are forgetting about the vetos given to both the accused and accuusing nations. If there were such an occasion to arise, the conflict of interests would be mroe than obvious, and the accusing nations could veto the puppet state/controlling state off the panel.

Secondly, as for having a very strong military, then clearly, only a very strong, or very large, coalition would be willing to intervene in the first place.

Were there more issues? I can't remember now...

To address DLE's issues:

Firstly, we can add a clause stating that governments with multiple states cannot have more than one of these states on the panel. However, only one of these states should be a UN member anyway, so therefore more than one could not be on the panel. Besides, your are forgetting about the vetos given to both the accused and accuusing nations. If there were such an occasion to arise, the conflict of interests would be mroe than obvious, and the accusing nations could veto the puppet state/controlling state off the panel.

Throw in a clause that all nations serving on the panel must admit whether or not they are part of multinational empires. That way, if Tiamat Taveril were to end up on a panel, you can prevent certain possible DLE abuses. And if another member of that same group of nations comes up under charges, no one from that group may serve on the panel.

Ironically, Merlyns having accusations levelled at it with another DLE nation on the panel would result in no conflict of interest, but I would prefer to have it dealt with as though it would than allow for possible abuses.

Secondly, as for having a very strong military, then clearly, only a very strong, or very large, coalition would be willing to intervene in the first place.

Note to self: Update factbook with correct military strength sometime.

The reason why I was bringing up problems of enforcing jurisdiction is the fact that not all nations will want an outside panel involved and may react with military force in response.

Were there more issues? I can't remember now...

Nope.

Throw in a clause that all nations serving on the panel must admit whether or not they are part of multinational empires. That way, if Tiamat Taveril were to end up on a panel, you can prevent certain possible DLE abuses. And if another member of that same group of nations comes up under charges, no one from that group may serve on the panel.


I'll do that. I may just amend it to read region/multinational regime, and treat them as the same thing. It is for reasons like this that I had intended to allow the panel the opportunity to veto another member off, but that idea proved unpopular. But if just rephrase the eligibilty clause it should be fine.


The reason why I was bringing up problems of enforcing jurisdiction is the fact that not all nations will want an outside panel involved and may react with military force in response.


I don't imagine any governments committing genocide would be happy about outside intervention getting involved. That is why this proposal talks about military interventions. And like any international law, the most powerful are usually exempt in that they cannot be brought to justice UNLESS a sizeable enough coalition is brought against them, and really, this proposal is all about coalitions.

I'll do that. I may just amend it to read region/multinational regime, and treat them as the same thing. It is for reasons like this that I had intended to allow the panel the opportunity to veto another member off, but that idea proved unpopular. But if just rephrase the eligibilty clause it should be fine.

Agreed.

I don't imagine any governments committing genocide would be happy about outside intervention getting involved. That is why this proposal talks about military interventions. And like any international law, the most powerful are usually exempt in that they cannot be brought to justice UNLESS a sizeable enough coalition is brought against them, and really, this proposal is all about coalitions.

Still, just pointing out it will be a problem.

From how I understand it, Mikitivity's system involves assigning a letter to an hour each day (meaning that, say, at 2PM nations starting with "P" would get priority). It's a nice idea but can be flawed- nations could "delay" the announcement of problems until a favourable nation gets in queue. That's why I said have a moderator do it, because they're supposed to be impartial, though I understand their time constraints.

Not exactly what I was saying ...

I suggested that a lettering system with a base of 30 categories be developed, here is a start:

1. Numerics,
2. Underscores,
3. Hyphens and Apostrophes (sp?),
4. Other Special Characters,
5. A,
6. B,
7. C,
8. D,
9. E,
etc.

Then when a council is formed, the Jolt forum second or minute of posting of the request of the council is used to queue up the first letter. Thread right before that be used for the second letter, the thread before (back in time) before that for the fourth, etc.

It is not going to delay anything. I just got back from a long weekend of work (framing a garage), but perhaps tomorrow night I'll have the time to use a thread in this forum as an example and generate a "proof-of-concept" post. The beauty of this system is, while it might be claimed that a nation could try to time its post to the exact minute that favours it, it will not have control over the posts before it, thus meaning that out of some 30,000 UN members, that it is equally possible that another nation could still squat in.

Besides, anybody who lives and dies by the server clock ... well they will find many other ways to manipulate the system if they've got that much spare time.

Is everyone happy with this yet? I think we've tied up most if not all of the loopholes. *fingers crossed*

We do, however, still need more nations willing to sit on the panel. Once we've agreed that the panel rules are fine, I'll go about starting to recruit.

Not exactly what I was saying ...

I suggested that a lettering system with a base of 30 categories be developed, here is a start:

1. Numerics,
2. Underscores,
3. Hyphens and Apostrophes (sp?),
4. Other Special Characters,
5. A,
6. B,
7. C,
8. D,
9. E,
etc.

Then when a council is formed, the Jolt forum second or minute of posting of the request of the council is used to queue up the first letter. Thread right before that be used for the second letter, the thread before (back in time) before that for the fourth, etc.

It is not going to delay anything. I just got back from a long weekend of work (framing a garage), but perhaps tomorrow night I'll have the time to use a thread in this forum as an example and generate a "proof-of-concept" post. The beauty of this system is, while it might be claimed that a nation could try to time its post to the exact minute that favours it, it will not have control over the posts before it, thus meaning that out of some 30,000 UN members, that it is equally possible that another nation could still squat in.

Besides, anybody who lives and dies by the server clock ... well they will find many other ways to manipulate the system if they've got that much spare time.

I see...harder to manipulate, but still possible. Between 4-7 AM (EST) no one really posts here, so nations could use that time to bump topics to their satisfaction. I think if that were to be the case, perhaps limits should be set as to how many times one can "bump" topics, or have a window when one can report a new problem (say from 9AM to 12PM EST), or do both.

I see...harder to manipulate, but still possible. Between 4-7 AM (EST) no one really posts here, so nations could use that time to bump topics to their satisfaction. I think if that were to be the case, perhaps limits should be set as to how many times one can "bump" topics, or have a window when one can report a new problem (say from 9AM to 12PM EST), or do both.

Fine, problem solved ... pull the posts from moderation. Anybody post bumping or spamming the moderation forum is gonna end up in a world of hurt in nano-seconds.

The idea is to just use the resources we have at hand. I would have even suggested using whatever the current Paradise Club post in General is, because there is NEVER a die down in that blasted thread.

The bottom line is there are a few players who pratically live on-line. They will find a way to manipulate anything. I'd rather not design a massively difficult task in order to prevent a few of the "Add another newbie to the list of players who hasn't read the UN FAQ" or "Let's steal their desk" crowd.

It should be mentioned that the panel should be limited to UN members only, in order to prevent puppet jacking.

Fine, problem solved ... pull the posts from moderation. Anybody post bumping or spamming the moderation forum is gonna end up in a world of hurt in nano-seconds.

The idea is to just use the resources we have at hand. I would have even suggested using whatever the current Paradise Club post in General is, because there is NEVER a die down in that blasted thread.

The bottom line is there are a few players who pratically live on-line. They will find a way to manipulate anything. I'd rather not design a massively difficult task in order to prevent a few of the "Add another newbie to the list of players who hasn't read the UN FAQ" or "Let's steal their desk" crowd.

It should be mentioned that the panel should be limited to UN members only, in order to prevent puppet jacking.

I like the moderation idea better...you can't spam the moderation forum without consequences.

I like the moderation idea better...you can't spam the moderation forum without consequences.

Cool. Then we have an on-forum mechanism. Threads aren't stamped to the second on Jolt, just to the minute, and fortunately the moderation forum is low traffic enough that the distribution won't just be always be in alphabetical order.

I offered to make Gwenstefani a moderator on the UNO forums for archiving the history of Pretenama Panel's as her (?) government seems to be the most pro-active. How do others feel about this idea?

I'm not suggesting this as a replacement to this forum, but a supplement. The reason I suggest this is the recycle rate is pretty high here, and posts that should be updated often aren't.

I offered to make Gwenstefani a moderator on the UNO forums for archiving the history of Pretenama Panel's as her (?) government seems to be the most pro-active. How do others feel about this idea?
We don't have a problem with it.

Was wandering around the UNO site yesterday. Very nice.

We don't have a problem with it.

Was wandering around the UNO site yesterday. Very nice.

Thanks! :)

The UNO needs more foot traffic, so I'd encourage people to not only post there, but if you think Galdago or myself need to expand it into other sub-forums, perhaps for more non-game stuff, I'm all ears!

I offered to make Gwenstefani a moderator on the UNO forums for archiving the history of Pretenama Panel's as her (?) government seems to be the most pro-active. How do others feel about this idea?

I'm not suggesting this as a replacement to this forum, but a supplement. The reason I suggest this is the recycle rate is pretty high here, and posts that should be updated often aren't.

I think I'd like to try and help start that up soon, as I don't know how much longer this thread is going to last in the main UN forum bit before it's archived.

We still don't have enough nations to form even one panel. Although to be honest I've not yet went recruiting as I've been fairly busy, but hopefully I'll get to that at some point this week. But if anyone knows nations that would be interested, please let them know of the project, and if you still haven't signed up yet, let me know. If you want now you can just post here about it, and I'll run the checks on you. But if your nation name is different from your forum name, you'll have to say so. And remember to declare membership of multinational states or empires.

I think I'd like to try and help start that up soon, as I don't know how much longer this thread is going to last in the main UN forum bit before it's archived.

bump. a little longer, anyway.


We still don't have enough nations to form even one panel. Although to be honest I've not yet went recruiting as I've been fairly busy, but hopefully I'll get to that at some point this week. But if anyone knows nations that would be interested, please let them know of the project, and if you still haven't signed up yet, let me know. If you want now you can just post here about it, and I'll run the checks on you. But if your nation name is different from your forum name, you'll have to say so. And remember to declare membership of multinational states or empires.
The Oppressed Peoples of Asshelmetta volunteer.
No, really, we'll be good.

I still think this is good resolution material.

Tiamat Taveril and DemonLordEnigma are in separate UN regions, and yet Tiamat Taveril is one of the nations the DLE Empire annexed when first forming. The reason for that is amounts to my liking the ability to submit proposals.

Those rules are barely even an inconvenience, let alone a way of actually attempting to stop the problem. But, if you'll excuse me, I have abuses of thne Humanitarian Intervention resolution to set up.
Not a valid example. Only Tiamat Taveril is in the UN - Terran and Terrator doesn't even have a UN delegate.

Well, I would like it to be a proposal, and would if I could, but I've been told that it would breach the rules. If anyone could point out the exact phrases that violate them I'd be grateful, although I think it might just be the idea in general.

The Pretenama Panel forum is now up and running on the UN Organizations site: http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?c=8

As this will be the first forum I've moderated, any suggestions or tips would be much appreciated.

Excellent news!

I've registered there as YGSM, to head off any concerns about my name ;)

Frist pots!

I have requested an investigation (http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?showtopic=74) of Utopiates.

Well, if you'll let me stay, I've registered. I want to be at least somewhat active in the new panel.

We have had our first request for the formation of a Pretenama Panel. Which is fantastic news. Or not, I suppose, since it means something really bad is happening somewhere...

Chekck out the claim here: http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?showtopic=74

However, there is more bad news. Under current legislation we cannot form a Panel as we do not have enough volunteering nations. At present we have only 13, and already some cannot sit on the same panel as they are from the same region.

I will be trying a recruitment campaign sometime next week (any help with that would be great) but in the meantime, if people could get the word out, maybe even just recommend it to other nations or regions.

We have had our first request for the formation of a Pretenama Panel. Which is fantastic news. Or not, I suppose, since it means something really bad is happening somewhere...

Chekck out the claim here: http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?showtopic=74

However, there is more bad news. Under current legislation we cannot form a Panel as we do not have enough volunteering nations. At present we have only 13, and already some cannot sit on the same panel as they are from the same region.

I will be trying a recruitment campaign sometime next week (any help with that would be great) but in the meantime, if people could get the word out, maybe even just recommend it to other nations or regions.

In addition to recruiting here, I think posting your basic info from the UNO on the NationStates International Incidents forum to catch the attention of experienced roleplayers may generate some interest. :)

The Venerable Libertarians has registered in the UNO forums and has offered the services of the president pertaining to TPP.

Belem is committing genocide.

Evidence #1: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=378550
April 2003:
People with Hiv/Aids sent to internment camps.
It is estimated theres 2-5 million people with Hiv or Aids in Belem.

Evidence #2: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=...581#post8494581
March 2005:
Dramatic decreases in camp populations.
The Inquisition will begin the final shutdown of the Internment program and begin full scale liquidations of the remaining 175 thousand internees.
It is expected to take 2-3 months for the internees to remove all heavy machinery and useful equipment from the camps and for the Inquisition to shut them down. It will also take another 2-4 weeks to liquidate the detainees.
As of now any further cases of AIDS or HIV will be dealt with liquidation.

I would consider this an act comparable to genocide or ethnic cleansing, and thus falls under the jurisdiction of the UN Resolution on Humanitarian Intervention. Millions of people have been put into what are essentially forced-labour/death camps. Those that are left (175'000) are now to be executed within the next 4 months. Additionally, any future Aids carriers will be executed. This must be prevented. Therefore I call for a Pretenama Panel to be convened to investigate the matter urgently, and urge any nations interested in putting a stop to this atrocity to sign up to join the committee.

Not a valid example. Only Tiamat Taveril is in the UN - Terran and Terrator doesn't even have a UN delegate.

I know this is late...

Tiamat Taveril is the UN Delegate of the DLE Empire. It is in another region due to advantages from having it in that region.

The DLE Empire owns Terran and Terrator.

Belem is committing genocide.

Evidence #1: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=378550
April 2003:
People with Hiv/Aids sent to internment camps.
It is estimated theres 2-5 million people with Hiv or Aids in Belem.

Evidence #2: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=...581#post8494581
March 2005:
Dramatic decreases in camp populations.
The Inquisition will begin the final shutdown of the Internment program and begin full scale liquidations of the remaining 175 thousand internees.
It is expected to take 2-3 months for the internees to remove all heavy machinery and useful equipment from the camps and for the Inquisition to shut them down. It will also take another 2-4 weeks to liquidate the detainees.
As of now any further cases of AIDS or HIV will be dealt with liquidation.

I would consider this an act comparable to genocide or ethnic cleansing, and thus falls under the jurisdiction of the UN Resolution on Humanitarian Intervention. Millions of people have been put into what are essentially forced-labour/death camps. Those that are left (175'000) are now to be executed within the next 4 months. Additionally, any future Aids carriers will be executed. This must be prevented. Therefore I call for a Pretenama Panel to be convened to investigate the matter urgently, and urge any nations interested in putting a stop to this atrocity to sign up to join the committee.

I would like to remind the delegate from Gwestefani that, under the game rules about resolutions affecting nonmembers, this action can be argued to be highly illegal, thus voiding any and all decisions the TPP comes to during proceedings. I advise you to step carefully.

I am also willing to sit on the panel for this trial. None of my puppets are, to the best of my knowledge, from the same region and I don't particularly care which way this trial goes.

I would like to remind the delegate from Gwestefani that, under the game rules about resolutions affecting nonmembers, this action can be argued to be highly illegal, thus voiding any and all decisions the TPP comes to during proceedings. I advise you to step carefully.

I am also willing to sit on the panel for this trial. None of my puppets are, to the best of my knowledge, from the same region and I don't particularly care which way this trial goes.

No. This is not in breach of game rules. (Note to moderators: if it is deemed so I will delete the previous post.) Let me explain:

Non-members are not prevented from commiting genocide by the UN.

However, members are not prevented from attacking a country who commits genocide for that reason if they so choose.

The Humanitarian Intervention proposal only affects UN members by providing guidelines on how they should legally/morally go about doing that.

Most importantly, The Pretenama Panel is a role-play situation, and is not a UN proposal.

No. This is not in breach of game rules. (Note to moderators: if it is deemed so I will delete the previous post.) Let me explain:

Non-members are not prevented from commiting genocide by the UN.

However, members are not prevented from attacking a country who commits genocide for that reason if they so choose.

The Humanitarian Intervention proposal only affects UN members by providing guidelines on how they should legally/morally go about doing that.

Most importantly, The Pretenama Panel is a role-play situation, and is not a UN proposal.

The Humanitarian Intervention is just a cheap way of allowing UN nations to enforce UN resolutions on nonmember nations with the UN's backing. In other words, it should be illegal and is exploiting a loophole in the rules. It's something that allows for the rules to be broken, and that is very dangerous indeed.

The TPP is just the tool it uses to do so.

The Humanitarian Intervention is just a cheap way of allowing UN nations to enforce UN resolutions on nonmember nations with the UN's backing. In other words, it should be illegal and is exploiting a loophole in the rules. It's something that allows for the rules to be broken, and that is very dangerous indeed.

The TPP is just the tool it uses to do so.

That's not true. As I said, even without the Humanitarian Intervention Resolution, groups of liberal states are allowed to role-play attacks on non-liberal countries. The humanitarian intervention proposal only provides guidelines, and a panel to judge the actions. It does not enforce any rules on nonmembers. They can continue to do whatever they like. They just, in specific circumstances, run the risk of a role-play scenario in which people take offense to this and intervene. But it is all role-play. And role-play is not regulated.

It is not illegal, and it exploits nothing.

That's not true. As I said, even without the Humanitarian Intervention Resolution, groups of liberal states are allowed to role-play attacks on non-liberal countries. The humanitarian intervention proposal only provides guidelines, and a panel to judge the actions. It does not enforce any rules on nonmembers. They can continue to do whatever they like. They just, in specific circumstances, run the risk of a role-play scenario in which people take offense to this and intervene. But it is all role-play. And role-play is not regulated.

And, you're missing the point: The resolution allows for the UN itself to give backing to a nation taking militaristic action to enforce its resolutions on a nonmember. A nation can normally attempt to do that anyway, but not with UN backing. The UN backing of such has been argued, without opposition in many cases, to be a form of the UN having a military. In this case, it allows the UN members to circumvent the rules about the UN being unable to enforce its resolutions on nonmembers by allowing the UN to back actions that do enforce resolutions on nonmembers. No matter how fancily you try to dress it, that is what it is doing.

It is not illegal, and it exploits nothing.

It exploits a loophole, as explained above. And under UN rules, it can be successfully argued to be illegal. Keep in mind I'm one who looks for every way to exploit a resolution to my advantage, and the way above is a way to do so and be rid of nations outside the UN that I don't like with UN backing.

Keep in mind that if I'm doing this without preparation, imagine how much a person with preparation can do.

The UN backing of such has been argued, without opposition in many cases, to be a form of the UN having a military. In this case, it allows the UN members to circumvent the rules about the UN being unable to enforce its resolutions on nonmembers by allowing the UN to back actions that do enforce resolutions on nonmembers. No matter how fancily you try to dress it, that is what it is doing.


But it doesn't in that the UN still doesn't have an army, and the UN can't choose where to get involved. All that happens is that when 2 or more countries want to attack with *their own armies* they first come to the UN to see if it is justified, and how they should best go about it. Really, it's more of a citizen's advice bureau than anything, even if it does concern military matters.

As for UN backing to intervention, it is rather only judging whether a cause is "just" or "unjust" to use traditional vocabulary.

Belem is committing genocide.

Evidence #1: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=378550
April 2003:
People with Hiv/Aids sent to internment camps.
It is estimated theres 2-5 million people with Hiv or Aids in Belem.

Evidence #2: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=...581#post8494581
March 2005:
Dramatic decreases in camp populations.
The Inquisition will begin the final shutdown of the Internment program and begin full scale liquidations of the remaining 175 thousand internees.
It is expected to take 2-3 months for the internees to remove all heavy machinery and useful equipment from the camps and for the Inquisition to shut them down. It will also take another 2-4 weeks to liquidate the detainees.
As of now any further cases of AIDS or HIV will be dealt with liquidation.

I would consider this an act comparable to genocide or ethnic cleansing, and thus falls under the jurisdiction of the UN Resolution on Humanitarian Intervention. Millions of people have been put into what are essentially forced-labour/death camps. Those that are left (175'000) are now to be executed within the next 4 months. Additionally, any future Aids carriers will be executed. This must be prevented. Therefore I call for a Pretenama Panel to be convened to investigate the matter urgently, and urge any nations interested in putting a stop to this atrocity to sign up to join the committee.

Mikitivity stands ready to send representatives to a TPP.

[OOC: Good job in getting this started!] :)

I need someone to second the request (here and on the UN Organizations site).

PS For everyone, the link to the official Belem discussion is:
http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?showtopic=78

Seeing that the earlier post dates back to 2003, my government has seconded this request.

But it doesn't in that the UN still doesn't have an army, and the UN can't choose where to get involved. All that happens is that when 2 or more countries want to attack with *their own armies* they first come to the UN to see if it is justified, and how they should best go about it. Really, it's more of a citizen's advice bureau than anything, even if it does concern military matters.

As for UN backing to intervention, it is rather only judging whether a cause is "just" or "unjust" to use traditional vocabulary.

Be warned. Heavy semantics ahead.

By the UN saying it is okay for them to invade through the TPP in this case, the UN is, in effect, giving their backing to the cause. It can also be argued that, since the crimes are against UN laws, the nations in question are applying to be enforcers of UN law and the UN is agreeing to it. Under both of those arguements, the UN can be argued to be temporarily allowing the nations to act as their police or military force for enforcing their laws. By doing so, the UN is also saying their laws apply to nations outside the UN, thus saying the laws are enforcible on nations outside of the UN by UN backing.

The above is just a summary of the arguement, but you should get the idea. Countering that arguement requires proving the UN isn't using the nations in question as a military or police force, that the UN isn't backing the operation (failure to prove this will result in failure to prove the first), and that the UN isn't saying it is going to start enforcing its regulations on nonmember nations. All the other side needs to do is get you to fail to prove your side.

You think you can, using just UN resolutions, prove it? Either way, I'm going to let it rest. But I want you to be forewarned of the potential arguement that can be presented to invalidate the entire trial before it even begins.

Yes, and in those 2 years up to 4.8 million (4,800,000) people have died in those internment camps. 175'000 are to be "liquidised" in 4 months times. Anyone in Belem who contracts Aids or HIV in the future will be executed. That's alot of deaths at the hand of the government, deaths of a specific and targeted sector of the population. But we have time to put an end to this.

Allowing for the possibility of putting a stop to it is part of why I am willing to sit on the panel. My government has declared it will be neutral in this matter and I am fully willing to listen to the arguements and help with the judging.

Be warned. Heavy semantics ahead.
It can also be argued that, since the crimes are against UN laws,


No. And here is the flaw in your argument. Or at least the crux of mine. It wouldn't matter if there were a UN law against genocide or not. Irrelevant. The crime is against the people. We are acting in the interests of the people, not the UN law that says it is wrong. If I were a non-UN member I would feel the same way.


The above is just a summary of the arguement, but you should get the idea. Countering that arguement requires proving the UN isn't using the nations in question as a military or police force, that the UN isn't backing the operation (failure to prove this will result in failure to prove the first), and that the UN isn't saying it is going to start enforcing its regulations on nonmember nations.
The UN isn't using these nations. These nations are using the UN. They could do this anyway. Instead they come to the UN first, so that they are acting in the best interests of everyone involved. Everyone benefits from the UN being involved- including the nation potentially being attacked. The UN could say no. Granted the nations may do it anyway, but with less international respect. The UN also dictates how they act, and tries to stop exploitation and self-interest based actions. In a way, it is subtly regulating (without enforcing these regulations in an illegal-type way) warfare.


You think you can, using just UN resolutions, prove it? Either way, I'm going to let it rest. But I want you to be forewarned of the potential arguement that can be presented to invalidate the entire trial before it even begins.
I realise there are people opposed to it. But more people were in favour at the end of the day.

The Pretenema Panel is in danger of being viewed as a toothless ineffective Organis(z)ation. Its time for Actions to speak louder than words. Let us convene the panel.

No. And here is the flaw in your argument. Or at least the crux of mine. It wouldn't matter if there were a UN law against genocide or not. Irrelevant. The crime is against the people. We are acting in the interests of the people, not the UN law that says it is wrong. If I were a non-UN member I would feel the same way.

It's not a crime if there's no law against it. I mean, that's pretty much the definition of a crime: it's something against the law.

The Pretenema Panel is in danger of being viewed as a toothless ineffective Organis(z)ation. Its time for Actions to speak louder than words. Let us convene the panel.

It already is. The nation in question has, at last check, absolutely no fear of this.

Who are all of the members?

The Investigation of Belem (http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?c=8)

The Pretenema Panel is in danger of being viewed as a toothless ineffective Organis(z)ation. Its time for Actions to speak louder than words. Let us convene the panel.

We're still trying to get up and running. Investigations are already planned as soon as we reach the required quote of participating nations.

It already is. The nation in question has, at last check, absolutely no fear of this.

Who are all of the members?

Well, it's not been done before. Many people will still have no idea what TPP is yet. The investigation and possible intervention in Belem may help change that.

Members can be found in post #2 on this thread.

[OOC: We are still a few nations short of having a full panel as called for by the Eon Convention on Genocide. Basically if you are interested in roleplaying, and the amount of time you put into this is ultimately determined by you ... you can post a lot, or you can pretend to sleep through most of the discussions and cast a vote, i.e. pull a Baltar. But I'd like to strongly encourage UN newbies to check out:

http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?showtopic=78

Gwenstefani and my government are automatically not allowed to sit on the first proposed panel, since our government's stand as the accusers.

I also think it would be nice if the official location be listed as being hosted in a nation that isn't on the panel at all ... but others may have a different idea on this.]

Fellow Ambassadors,

A few days ago, the honored ambassador from Gwenstefani called our attention to a long-standing humanitarian crisis in the nation Belem. This is not a single event, but rather a long-standing government practice that is in violation of a number of UN human rights resolutions.

Following the passage of the Eon Convention on Genocide and Humantarian Intervention resolutions, we gave ourselves the means in which to actually form ad hoc committees with the sole responsibility of investigating charges of violations of international humanitarian law.

For two years, this "United Nations" has functioned well as a debate organization, and we've passed some ground breaking international law. However, when it has come to international responses to violations of our laws, we've relied upon pre-existing bi-lateral mechanisms to respond to these situations. The two previously mentioned resolutions were designed to highlight and help coordinate international responses into violations of international humanitarian laws. However, a critical part of coordination, is asking if this is indeed a situation that warrants a more uni-lateral responses.

Clearly, we are stronger if we stand together. However, in order to do so, we must recognize that we need to carefully review the consequences of working together. With that in mind, Gwenstefani and Mikitivity would like to encourage nations to consider volunteering to serve upon a committee, The Pretenama Panel, to make an international recommendation (consistent with existing UN law) on how our governments can best deal with the situtation in Belem, bearing in mind that even no action, is a decision.

As my government has seconded the motion for the formation of the Pretenama Panel, under the provisions of international law, no representative from the Confederated City States of Mikitivity may actually sit on the panel. With that in mind, my government sincerely hopes that others will stand up in the cause of justice.

Bravi, bravi, bravissimi. I've begun a running tally on two regional boards of where Pretenama panels are (what stage they're at, I mean), and have begged myself hoarse at Q102 for volunteers for the Panel investigating the nations of Belem and Theao....

URGENT! The following is a public statement by the Belemese government, as announced in the International Incidents forum: "Update: According to the timetable set down with the initial shutdown of the camps all remaining work camps have been shutdown by the Inquisition and the remaining internees not sold off are being transported to the last remaining camp and liquidation will begin within the week(1 or 2 days RL time depending when i get around to making the post.) The Holy Office of the Inquisition would like to remind all nations interested in purchasing internees to place orders immediately to ensure they will be filled."


Intervention is needed now! we cant wait fot the Panel to have enough members.


Greetings Commanders of the Corporate Police State of Belem.
We have Been sent as an Emisary of King James the first of the Realm of Hibernia.

We are instructed to issue you with the Following Warning.

Your Slaughter and Sale of your citizens will Not be tolerated and your nation is being watched by the UNO and being investigated for crimes against humanity!
It is Demanded you cease Hostility to the remaining people you have gathered in the Final camp and release them to leave as refugees to the Waiting Ships and task force in international waters off your shores.
Failure to do this immediatly will result in an undesired raising of Hostility between your nation and The Might of the Collective Regions Backing this task force.
We Await Your Reply.
Lord Byron,
First Lord of the Admiralty Of the Realm of Hibernia.


The Templar Crusaders Task force has been joined By the Medici Legacys forces.
However the combined populace of these nations only amounts to 1 billion and the belem nation has over 4 Billion.
We request other nations of the UNO and Pretenema Panel telegram the Belemese Dictatorship in support of the taskforce waiting off their shores.

All Quotes are from the UNO Forum
UNO Forum link (http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php)

I'm sorry, but I cannot make such a telegram without compromising my position in the TPP. As such, I will not be making it for interests of legal integrity.

The Task force does not compromise the standing on the panel list as it purely requests the release of the Final camps inmates to the Ships awaiting.

There is no hostile Intent here! simply a request for their release and a way for them to leave.

I do not wish there to be any legitimate reason for the defense to call for my removal from the panel. It is too difficult to find those willing to serve as it is.

Your Point is noted, however We dissagree with your position. Respectfully.

All I'm doing is covering my ass in a way I believe is helpful to me in this matter. These reasons are my own and not ones I expect to be shared.

Actually, the panel requires at least 15 nations that are essentially not going to be subject to objections from the parties involved ... bearing in mind that the list of panel members is small and it is important that we focus on building an acceptable list of nations to participate on panels in general first.

Our emisary and tsk force leader has recieved the following message. The Task Force Awaits Instruction.


ooc: can you post that in the thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=406536&page=4
thanks

IC: The Holy Imperial Empire of Belem does not aknowledge the authority of the UNO or the UN as a whole. We furthermore find it outrageous that your nation belives it can force its will down others throats.
We will continue with the liquidations as scheduled as prescribed by Imperial law.
And your nation is to remove its Task Force atleast 200 miles away from Imperial National Waters or we will take the neccessary actions to protect our borders.

This could easily turn into WW I.

This could easily turn into WW I.

OOC: That __is__ the main idea here. ;) Afterall, that is what roleplaying is all about.

Some would argue that the massive extermination of ethnic minorities on the part of the Nazis was enough to sway American sentiment out of isolationism into a more pro-active position in the early 1940s. When the United States entered the two year old war, it had already started some build up in its military forces, particularly R&D and public works. Example: Grand Coulee Dam, Columbia River Basin.

http://users.owt.com/chubbard/gcdam/html/history.html

Ironically, because of the Second World War and the importance of the Northwest's aluminum industry to that effort, the production of electricty became the overriding priority for the dam. Irrigation was deferred until later. During the war six Grand Coulee generators were brought on line as well as two generators borrowed from the yet to be completed Shasta dam.

http://www.irn.org/index.asp?id=/basics/whatdamsdo.html


Electricity from the big Western dams helped to win the Second World War. By June 1942, almost all the power from Grand Coulee and Bonneville Dam, built by the Army Corps of Engineers on the Lower Columbia, was going to war production, most of it to producing aluminium for aeroplanes. Later the hydropower of the Northwest was turned to another use: the highly energy–intensive production of plutonium for nuclear bombs. In 1945 the first and second biggest sources of electricity on the planet were Grand Coulee and Hoover with respective generating capacities of 2,138 and 1,250 megawatts.

That in mind, I honestly plan on picking daily issues in Mikitivity that are going to boost my police and military spending and begin to take away civil and political freedoms in order to simulate a "War Footing". I've done it before when one godmoder was pushing around newbies back in Sept. 2004 and would then telegram the newbies that they were welcome to participate in a Mikitivity Lend Lease Program <--- basically a program where my government would funnel funds, raw energy, and infrastructure into their economies so that they could better build their own defenses.

In any event, look for a forthcoming statement from my government in which democractic nations which adhere to the UN decisions will be considered for a Mikitivity Lend Lease II Program.

Lend/ Lease? Dams? Power?!

With all due Respect You are taking the Mikitivity. Two of my realms finest war machines are sitting off the coast of Belem, Outnumbered 4:1 and you are talking funding! Put your money prospects away Mikitivity and send your troops to join the Task Force.

Broadcast Aired at approx. 6 PM on most Belem News Stations:

The camera is on a rocky field where thousands of prisoners are in the process of digging trenches and erecting large wooden stakes. Inquisitors stand around the perimeter dressed in full combat gear. Otheres are patrolling the trench ordering the internees where to dig.

Voiceover: This is the Belem news network reporting for the first time from previously classified internee camps for those interned for carrying the devils disease. The Holy Office of the Inquisition has announced that today will begun the first cleansings of the enemies of Belem. We will continue providing updates during the day on the progress of the cleansings.


30 minutes Later:

More News Networks begin broadcasts from the camps. By now the trench network is completed and the internees are tied to the wooden stakes positioned through out the trenches. A High Inquisitor Colonel in full dress uniform comes up to a podium and begins reading an address:

"The Holy Office of the Inquisition today by Imperial Decree has issued the order to begin the execution of the most heinous criminals present in the camp those convicted of crimes against Mother Church and Our Lord God. Today we execute the known sodomites and homosexuals and remove their blight from the Earth. Under the orders of our Glorious Emperor Vincent Lombardi they were put on trial and Convicted of Crimes against God by Grand Inquisitor Tarkin. By the laws set down by the Inquisition these heretics will be burnt at the stake by the cleansing flame. These ten thousand traitors will feel the might of Imperial Law. We the members of his Emperors personal Imperial Guard will oversee this Inquisition and ensure these enemies of the Empire go to there eternal damnation."

On cue select Inquisitors around the perimeter of the trench toss burning torches into the oil fields quickly spreading the fire and pumping black smoke into the sky. The news cameras stay focused on the burnings as a voiceover reads the plans for the following executions to take place the next day for those who commited high crimes against the Empire.


UN or Not the leaders of this nation should be made accountable!

Lend/ Lease? Dams? Power?!

With all due Respect You are taking the Mikitivity. Two of my realms finest war machines are sitting off the coast of Belem, Outnumbered 4:1 and you are talking funding! Put your money prospects away Mikitivity and send your troops to join the Task Force.

Intelligence reports indicate that Belem is one of the strongest nations around. However, in light of the most recent information coming from Belem, the Miervatian Luftwaffe has been placed on high alert and a yet to be determined number of Dunkeleulen Geschwader and Alpen Fallenschirmjager could be added to any UN peacekeeping operations (if needed).

However, there are still a number of non-military options that we can still discuss.

This could easily turn into WW I.

OOC: Too late. WW1, WW2, and WW3 already happened on the old boards.

IC:

To help monitor this situation, we are thinking of placing one of our ships with the fleet wanting to attack. The ship is simply to monitor events. If it gets attacked, however, they're going down.

The Grand Duchy of YGSM is embarassed to admit we cannot at this time join the alliance. We have relied exclusively on the nuclear deterrent and upon alliance with other members of our region. The more powerful of these allies would be disinclined to intervene to stop this heinous genocide, however.

Our efforts to gain new participants in TPP continues, however.

The Free Land of Bitewaldi would be willing to sit on the TPP council, provided that does not commit our forces to engage in any military action, as I think they will be wholely inadequate. We are not a highly technological nation, but we make some damnned good furniture.

The Free Land of Bitewaldi would be willing to sit on the TPP council, provided that does not commit our forces to engage in any military action, as I think they will be wholely inadequate. We are not a highly technological nation, but we make some damnned good furniture.

Excellent, it is probably best that nations that volunteer to sit on a panel, not be directly involved in any issue they are reviewing. :)

Vastiva volunteers to sit on the panel as we have no idea what is going on, are unbiased therefore, and rather interested in greater involvement.

the task force has been withdrawn. it will return with strenght of numbers.

see the international incident thread.

the task force has been withdrawn. it will return with strenght of numbers.

see the international incident thread.

OOC: Links are good things.

the International incident forum thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=406536&page=4)

apologies, Meant to include it.

the Nation of Belem needs a kicking! :mp5: Who is wth me?

Belem News Report:

UN PAPER TIGER FEARS IMPERIAL MIGHT!

Today despite bostierous claims otherwise the Hibernian Task Force fled from the Imperial Coast no doubt fearing the might of the Imperial Navy.

The task force was positioned off the Empire's coast as a "warning" against Belem's "crimes" against "Humanity" despite the governments constant denial of the fact that those being executed were not Human.

The task force of Hibernia insisted action would be taken if the Inquisition went through with the executions of those marked with the devil's disease. After the first round of executions the only response from Hibernia was a pathetically empty threat and their "finest fleets" running like a dog with its tail between its legs.

Once again it is shown that the so called United Nations is powerless to do anything then boast and strut.

The Pretenama Panel forum is now up and running on the UN Organizations site: http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?c=8

As this will be the first forum I've moderated, any suggestions or tips would be much appreciated.
Vastiva, this post is how I always find the location.

Gwenstefani would like to apologise to all those involved so far with TPP, and especially to Venerable Libertarians. We share both your interpretation of UN law (in that Humanitarian Intervention allows us to use TPP against non-UN members) and your willingness to intervene in cases such as Belem.

[OOC] Unfortunately, I have been very busy this week and unable to participate in NationStates goings-on.

[IC] It is with deep regret that we realise that any actions in Belem will now be too late as the people we intended to save are now dead. Belem has taken this as a sign that the UN is powerless, "a paper tiger".

However, I do not believe this is the case. We can learn alot from this. When such a situation arises again, and it will, we need to move quickly. Unfortunately, the main obstacle to that in this case was a lack of numbers needed to form TPP officially, and I anticipate that once that is achieved, we will be much more effective.

Please keep trying to encourage other nations to sign up. We currently have 17 on the list, but due to some duplicate regions, we need a couple more. And remember, non-TPP members can still bring a case of genocide to the committee to be investigated!

Apologies again for my inactivity.

IC:
The UN may not be able to quickly respond to governments that have the "magical" means to kill hundreds of thousands in the blink of an eye without any civil unrest, however, we still have the ability to stand together and impose trade sanctions on Belem.

My government asks that any nation that believes campaigns of government sponsored genocide should not go unpunished to join Mikitivity and impose economic sanctions against Belem. Post your nations disagreements with Belem in the thread linked above.

We find trade sanctions to be a wasted effort. By our files Belem does not trade with any UN nation that would be putting sanctions on the nation and, thus, would be completely unaffected. All this will do is make the UN look even worse by UN members taking an action with no teeth and no affect upon the nation in question. If you want to punish him, get your militaries ready for war. If you are not willing to take the risk, then don't waste your time on efforts that will ultimately make him look better and have no effect.

Gwenstefani would like to apologise to all those involved so far with TPP, and especially to Venerable Libertarians. We share both your interpretation of UN law (in that Humanitarian Intervention allows us to use TPP against non-UN members) and your willingness to intervene in cases such as Belem.

[OOC] Unfortunately, I have been very busy this week and unable to participate in NationStates goings-on.

[IC] It is with deep regret that we realise that any actions in Belem will now be too late as the people we intended to save are now dead. Belem has taken this as a sign that the UN is powerless, "a paper tiger".

However, I do not believe this is the case. We can learn alot from this. When such a situation arises again, and it will, we need to move quickly. Unfortunately, the main obstacle to that in this case was a lack of numbers needed to form TPP officially, and I anticipate that once that is achieved, we will be much more effective.

Please keep trying to encourage other nations to sign up. We currently have 17 on the list, but due to some duplicate regions, we need a couple more. And remember, non-TPP members can still bring a case of genocide to the committee to be investigated!

Apologies again for my inactivity.

As the nation Heading up the UN paper tiger task force i may have felt the disgrace of backing off too personally. However i do agree with DLE on the inneffectiveness of sanctions. The answer is a thread filibuster where the UN Members take over the thread on the International Incident Forum where belem and its accomplices are currently posting their propoganda.

First we should check if a filibuster of a thread is legal and then if it is i call on all good UN members to post many posts in the thread of no topic so as to force the members of that thread to search out posts of relevance. I believe if enough are involved in such a move the thread shall become unreadable thus negating Belems propoganda.

And if that dont work, Lets blow em to hell!

As the nation Heading up the UN paper tiger task force i may have felt the disgrace of backing off too personally. However i do agree with DLE on the inneffectiveness of sanctions. The answer is a thread filibuster where the UN Members take over the thread on the International Incident Forum where belem and its accomplices are currently posting their propoganda.

First we should check if a filibuster of a thread is legal and then if it is i call on all good UN members to post many posts in the thread of no topic so as to force the members of that thread to search out posts of relevance. I believe if enough are involved in such a move the thread shall become unreadable thus negating Belems propoganda.


Belem actually has been pretty forthright on their legal and moral right to murder their own citizens. It has been amazing, but I don't think that I'd want to talk about propoganda.

For example, when my government privately attempted to negotiate a peace Belem politely refused. It was not a threatening statement, just a cold hard fact. When my government then immediately enacted a trade embargo on Belem, it was in all honest a weak gesture, as there is no real trading history between our nations. Belem responded by enacting a trade embargo on Mikitivity and then declared that all of my nation's citizens found in Belem would be treated as spies and hinted that they too would be put to death. The reality is for several weeks, the Mikitivity Office of International affairs has seen to it that none of our citizens are remotely near Belem, so again, Belem's gesture was pretty hollow and non-threatening.

What I'd suggest is that if a core group of nations can enact trade sanctions together, we can then appeal to the Pacifics for additional signatures. It would be interesting if we could get 100 nations to agree to no longer recognize Belem.

OOC: Belem actually is very friendly and just wants to stir up an international incident here. Unfortunately many players aren't interested in a hot war, and though Belem and I have exchanged only a few polite telegrams, my impression is that he / she might be willing to ham up a cold war and even toss us a bone or two to generate more liberal support. :) Overall this is reminding me of Joccia, and I think it can be an important leason, even if we look weak in the process.

Belem actually has been pretty forthright on their legal and moral right to murder their own citizens. It has been amazing, but I don't think that I'd want to talk about propoganda.

For example, when my government privately attempted to negotiate a peace Belem politely refused. It was not a threatening statement, just a cold hard fact. When my government then immediately enacted a trade embargo on Belem, it was in all honest a weak gesture, as there is no real trading history between our nations. Belem responded by enacting a trade embargo on Mikitivity and then declared that all of my nation's citizens found in Belem would be treated as spies and hinted that they too would be put to death. The reality is for several weeks, the Mikitivity Office of International affairs has seen to it that none of our citizens are remotely near Belem, so again, Belem's gesture was pretty hollow and non-threatening.

What I'd suggest is that if a core group of nations can enact trade sanctions together, we can then appeal to the Pacifics for additional signatures. It would be interesting if we could get 100 nations to agree to no longer recognize Belem.

OOC: Belem actually is very friendly and just wants to stir up an international incident here. Unfortunately many players aren't interested in a hot war, and though Belem and I have exchanged only a few polite telegrams, my impression is that he / she might be willing to ham up a cold war and even toss us a bone or two to generate more liberal support. :) Overall this is reminding me of Joccia, and I think it can be an important leason, even if we look weak in the process.

OOC: Awww...and I was willing to see "Team UN: World Police" in action. I even prepared my other nation (BitingReality), an oppressive state, to join Belem's side. Oh well.

GOOD NEWS!!!! (At last!)

We now have enough nations to convene a panel! We have 18 nations, only 3 pairs of which come from the same region, allowing the other 15 to sit on any given panel. So long as the accusing nations do not come from one of these regions (and accusers do not need to be on the panel shortlist), we will be able to act next time!

Still, it would be nice to have as many nations involved as possible, so keep spreading the word about it. If we had enough nations, we could have several panels operating at the same time, preventing a build-up of investigations where time is usually of the essence.

dear popular nation

i ask you to undo the work that the un has done. Submit a proposal to repeal the current resolution and i will endorse it. You can save the un.

OOC: Awww...and I was willing to see "Team UN: World Police" in action. I even prepared my other nation (BitingReality), an oppressive state, to join Belem's side. Oh well.

You still can ... but a number of nations already are siding against the UN and its "liberal" ways. *sigh*

So thats a POO POOH to the filibuster idea?

:headbang:

So thats a POO POOH to the filibuster idea?

:headbang:

Not exactly.

It is still OK to roleplay and protest in Belem's thread. He/she has been bumping the thread trying to generate more interest (as posts get buried very quickly in the international incidents forum).

Thus far only several nations have publically announced that they have placed a trade embargo on Belem:

Grosseschnauzer
Gwenstefani
Mikitivity
No State At All

No State At All actually happens to be a 2003 nation, and thus far is the largest of the bunch.

Any other nation wishing to protest the government genocide campaign of Belem should go to the following thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=406536

And announce that your nation is joining the UN Embargo, in support of numerous UN resolutions.

{edit: I'll continue to add to this list as more nations join the Embargo.}

Gwenstefani has now formally declared its economic sanctions against Belem, joining the growing coalition of nations who have already done so. We urge all other nations to follow suit.

In response to the debate on the effectiveness of economic sanctions:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409890
"Justinian pleas for end to embargo, Amends Constitution to Prevent Purges"

In response to the debate on the effectiveness of economic sanctions:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409890
"Justinian pleas for end to embargo, Amends Constitution to Prevent Purges"

Excellent news! My government always appreciates it when an arguement can be backed up by an example, and this is in fact a case where economic sanctions were able to show some effectiveness.

After much deliberation amongst the members it has been advised sanctions are to be introduced against the Nation State of Belem.
In acknowledgeing this fact and after Witnessing the Horrific acts on its peoples, the 47 Nations of the Realm of Hibernia, Under the Reign of his Majesty King James the First and seconded by the UN Delegate to the Realm, Grand Cali, Impose Economic Sanctions with immediate effect.
These sanctions shall be lifted once the current government of Belem are removed.

By order of His majesty the King and benevolent Overlord of the Realm of Hibernia.

HRH King James.

posted earlier.

OOC: Is that a region with 47 nations? If I had a list of all of those nation names, I'd like to add them to the list, or I can just place the region's name and designate it as such.

Yes its all 47 nations of the realm. you want the Names......Here they are.

001, The Nomadic Peoples of 15th Century Africa,
002, The Republic of AWWW,
003, The Dominion of Azakea,
004, The Free Land Of Blissful Twilight,
005, The Rogue Nation of Bombaday,
006, The Republic of Borborygmi,
007, The United states of Born Leaders,
008, The Kingdom of British Principality,
009, The Community of Cascadistan,
010, The Holy Empire of Edmundiar,
011, The Republic of Eurodrive,
012, The Principality of Extingt Irish Stags,
013, The Empire of Flogs,
014, The Big Flashy Boom of Fyrewerks,
015, The United States of Government Bull,
016, The oppressed Peoples of Grand Cali, (Gov. High Ambassador)
017, The protectorate of Hal the Computer,
018, The Republic of Heft 2,
019, The Free Land of HollisterCo,
020, The Republic of I ate a Baby,
021, The Most serene Republic of Irlynn,
022, The Oppressed Peoples of Jerichow,
023, The Dictatorship of Jingleflop,
024, The Democratic states of Lebanan,
025, The Dominion of Loretsor,
026, The Free Land of Los Deiagos,
027, The Community of Lutopie,
028, The Commonwealth of Mark Fahy,
029, The Borderlands of Metropolasia,
030, The Republic of My Home_Sweet_Home,
031, The Free Land of Scotlyn,
032, The Holy Empire of Sculpere,
033, The Repulic of Soulman72,
034, The Colony of Southern Jingleflop,
035, The Dominion of Spagsia,
036, The jingoistic states of StarControl2
037, The Most Serene Republic of Taer Angwidd,
038, The Principality of Templar Crusaders, (Gov. First Lord of The Admiralty)
039, The Principality of the Divinity,
040, The Free Land of the Marauders Map,
041, The Principality of the Medici Legacy,
042, The Republic of Okapi,
043, The Empire of Tiaguland,
044, The Hibernian Kingdom of Venerable Libertarians, (Gov. Overlord of the Realm)
045, The Grand Duchy of Warpaxia, (Gov, Viceroy of Intelligence)
046, The Oppressed peoples of Worklife,
047, The Free Land of Zucchetto.

As King and Overlord of the Realm I have the Power to Represent the Nations of the Realm, as i see fit, as to Article 1.

Article 1: Reign
The King shall rule the realm as a benevolent overlord. The Member nations of the Realm shall be his Subjects. The King shall make all necessary decisions pertaining to the Realm and its role within the Nation States world. The king may appoint where he sees fit any office to aid the growth and prosperity of the Realm. The UN Delegate is elevated to Royal Regent should the King’s Nation be absent or ceased to exist. All member nations of the realm are united to the home Kingdom of the Venerable Libertarians.

Who Knew my 250th post would be such a long one? ;)

Yes its all 47 nations of the realm. you want the Names......Here they are.

As King and Overlord of the Realm I have the Power to Represent the Nations of the Realm, as i see fit, as to Article 1.



Who Knew my 250th post would be such a long one? ;)

OOC: Wow! :) I'm impressed. Very impressed!

These are several different player controlled nations, right? The one thing I want to be careful about it not to use puppets. For example, I am not bringing the IRCO into the mix for two reasons, (1) it is me the person behind them, and (2) they are really around to just cleam up messes of UN members (per the resolution).

There are possibly 6 Puppet nations. Eg heft 2 is a Puppet of heft who resides in the North pacific and Uses Heft 2 as an ambassador to the realm.

I have petitioned my region to follow VL's region's example. Hopefully they will agree to a regional ban, which would add another 120 nations to the list.

There are possibly 6 Puppet nations. Eg heft 2 is a Puppet of heft who resides in the North pacific and Uses Heft 2 as an ambassador to the realm.

That translates to virtually *none* to me. :)

I'll copy that list over shortly. I started working on a resolution to present to the IDU asking for the region to join the sanctions.

venerable Libertarians has had some fistycuff therapy with relation to Belem.
Whilst in the Strangers Bar Lord Byron, First lord of the Hibernian Admiralty, remembered a member who had tried to buy some of the HIV citizens and has knocked him cold.
See the UN strangers Bar for more.......

An Interesting Development!!


OOC: No this isn't a war RP post, you can just assume the results of this announcement. I don't mind

IC:

In response to TPP's war mongering and hostility towards our great ally, The Imperial Empire. We have decided to implent the following:

1) All persons, whom are from TPP nations are now in Guild law counted as Imperial property (as slaves to the Emperor personally, they will be auctioned off for industrial, servant or experiment use at a later date), thus will be detained by anyone who wishes to return them to their masters except in prevailing circumstances.

2) All TPP nation's ships and aircraft are now considered rogue, thus are liable to be forcibly confiscated by Guild units or personnel on sight.

3) All trade with TPP nations will cease.

4) Diplomatic ties/channels are officially cut off to TPP nations.

Additionaly, we call upon other nations of true moral stature to take up the fight against the Jews, Communists and other undesirables of TPP, we suggust a blockade of said nations until they accept favourable conditions to our selves.

For God and Saint Peter,

-Criticus Zabic
Foreign Affairs Advisor to the Emperor Cutter

These nations have no manners! They could have informed the Realm that we were no longer our own! :mp5:

An Interesting Development!!




These nations have no manners! They could have informed the Realm that we were no longer our own! :mp5:

Ha! Like they could come within ten feet of my citizens...

DLE will now be dealing with this as though those nations are hostile. Any harassment of DLE personel or citizens will be considered a direct attack on DLE itself. In other words, they mess with my citizens and they're going to be looking down the wrong end of several million gigatons of future-tech firepower.

An Interesting Development!!




These nations have no manners! They could have informed the Realm that we were no longer our own! :mp5:

OOC: First, this may not make much sense, since I'm full of Marzen right now and ... OMG there is a big gapping hole in my knee (pictures forthcoming on an off-site forum <--- I think sliding into second to avoid being picked off after several acrobatics in Center-Right were a bad idea ... the dollar pints weren't enough to make the pain stop), but ....

I saw that post today and __assumed__ this person didn't know what the TPP is. Considering that one can't be formed until we have a large enough roster, I ingored the post. Belem's RP is open, so there will be non-UN newbies as well.

Bottom line, OOC, I'm not worried a bit about this. Belem and some of the other RPers have been very interested in seeing how the UN players react. I hope to update the list of embargo nations tomorrow, but from the little I've participated in, this is a fun RP thus far! :)

Belem has given some OOC technical info if you wanted to step away from political roleplay and is going a fantastic job in encouraging creative storytelling! My recommendation is if you want to do something interesting telegram and I think you'll be pleased!

The following nations have been selected to sit on the first TPP hearing concerning genocide in Crimmond. Please report immediately to http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?showtopic=103&st=0&#entry5419493 for duty.

1)The Free Land of McGonagall, (the South Pacific)
2)The Armed Republic of Krioval, (Chaotica)
3)The Annexed State of Tiamat Taveril, (the South Pacific)
4)The Dictatorship of the Irish Brotherhood, (Munster)
5)The Great Kingdom of Peachydom, (Q102).
6)The Tragic Kingdom of Gwenstefani, (Gay)
7)The Free Land of Bitewaldi, (User Friendlia).
8)The Cloud-Water Community of Ecopoeia, (Anticapitalist Alliance)
9)The Hidden Vale of Loratana, (CENA) of the Democratic States of Loratana.
10)The United Socialist States of Nargopia, (Bowdigity)
11)The Kingdom of New Matrex, (Mercia The Next Generation).
12)The Republic of The Roman UN Puppet, (The New Roman Empire)
13)The Hibernian Kingdom of Venerable libertarians, (The Realm of Hibernia).
14)The Grand Duchy of YGSM, (the Isle of Lesbos)
15)The Commonwealth of Zamundaland, (Lavinium)

If anyone else would like to get involved with the Pretenama Panel's work, leave a message here or telegram Gwenstefani. We are always looking for new members. Thanks.

Numbers 1 and 3 are from the same region. We might want to replace one.

Crap. I missed that one.

Tiamat Taveril will have to be replaced.

The following nations have been selected to sit on the first TPP hearing concerning genocide in Crimmond. Please report immediately to http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations/index.php?showtopic=103&st=0&#entry5419493 for duty.

1)The Free Land of McGonagall, (the South Pacific)
2)The Armed Republic of Krioval, (Chaotica)
3)The Annexed State of Tiamat Taveril, (the South Pacific)
4)The Dictatorship of the Irish Brotherhood, (Munster)
5)The Great Kingdom of Peachydom, (Q102).
6)The Tragic Kingdom of Gwenstefani, (Gay)
7)The Free Land of Bitewaldi, (User Friendlia).
8)The Cloud-Water Community of Ecopoeia, (Anticapitalist Alliance)
9)The Hidden Vale of Loratana, (CENA) of the Democratic States of Loratana.
10)The United Socialist States of Nargopia, (Bowdigity)
11)The Kingdom of New Matrex, (Mercia The Next Generation).
12)The Republic of The Roman UN Puppet, (The New Roman Empire)
13)The Hibernian Kingdom of Venerable libertarians, (The Realm of Hibernia).
14)The Grand Duchy of YGSM, (the Isle of Lesbos)
15)The Commonwealth of Zamundaland, (Lavinium)
The Nation of Venerable Libertarians, representing the Realm of Hibernia is happy to respond to the Call for the Panel to be convened.

Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information.

Can someone please explain?

Nations must sign into the thread it seems, by registering at invision.

Hopefully most nations will have deduced this by now.

I will be posting in the South Pacific regarding recruitment to future panels.

Well it looks like our latest urgent recruitment appeal has worked wonders and we now have more than enough member nations. Thanks to all those new nations who have signed up. Please remember that even if you do not serve on the first panel, we have regular new appeals for investigations, and each time the panel is selected randomly so it most likely you will sit on one soon. Also, you are automatically considered as reserves in case any current panel member is vetoed off. Hopefully now TPP can work as it ws intended since it is now fully functional.

But we are always still looking for new members!

The Triumvirate of Enn has received an invitation from Gwenstefani, and has indicated its intention to take part in this organisation.

OOC: Just the thing to make NS life more interesting.

May i remind the 15 Members currently selected to vote for the Chair of the Current pretenema Panel. the sooner this is done the sooner we may get underway. The Time is ticking my friends and i for one do not wish to see another Belem, Not in My life time.

OOC:
Since this is the first time for many of us to try something like this ... a "international panel" roleplay spawned in this forum, I just wanted to:

1) encourage people interested in lurking / watching,
2) encourage experienced roleplayers to not be afraid to offer pointers and tips,
3) remind everybody that those of us involved are focusing on the experience, so don't be afraid to ask questions or try something now.

I am honestly really looking forward to this. :)

To the members of TPP: if any of you needs to contact my UN nation (The Roman UN Puppet), do so through my main nation, RomeW. I don't check my TG's in any of my puppet nations.

Nations of the UNO and specifically the Pretenema Panel Select, We have withdrawn our vote for the Honourable Nation of Krioval and We now vote for Gwenstefani as Chair.

This leaves the Votes as follow with one nation absent, And thus elects Gwenstefani as Chair.

Votes now cast: 14

5 for Gwenstefani
3 for Venerable Libertarians
1 for Krioval
1 for YGSM
1 for Peachydom
1 for the Irish Brotherhood
1 for Loratana
1 for Ecopoeia

Votes remaining: 1 (YGSM)

Habibus Chair! lol.

:mp5: The UNPP assault on crimmond has begun!

Crimmond Role Play. Click this link to join the assault! (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8766180&posted=1#post8766180)

OOC: You folks really need help in how to make a war work...

The Roman Empire has officially declared neutrality in this war. We feel that the war is unwinnable due to the size of the forces and due to what we feel is a considerable lack of planning by TPP with regards to the war, as TPP has not even close to the strength needed for this venture. As such, we do not wish to subject our nation to a venture that we consider to be ill-conceived, incredibly impractical and will only serve to damage our nation. If TPP wishes to venture into the Gates of Hell, so be it- the Romans shall not join them.

The Roman Empire has officially declared neutrality in this war. We feel that the war is unwinnable due to the size of the forces and due to what we feel is a considerable lack of planning by TPP with regards to the war, as TPP has not even close to the strength needed for this venture. As such, we do not wish to subject our nation to a venture that we consider to be ill-conceived, incredibly impractical and will only serve to damage our nation. If TPP wishes to venture into the Gates of Hell, so be it- the Romans shall not join them.

OOC: Well, yes, this is part of my point...

OOC: Well, yes, this is part of my point...

OOC: Thank you. I keep looking at the situation and think, "This is Crimmond and Automagfreek! Two of the most powerful nations in all of NS; and they think they can go in there with what they have and come out victorious?" I don't even think their populations even come close to what Crimmond and Automagfreek have seperately, if not together (most of TPP have under 100 million people, and I believe it's just Mik, myself and Ecopoeia who have over 1 billion, and just myself and Ecopoeia who have a population of 2 billion plus). It's almost like Palau declaring war on the US without getting, say, the European Union on their side- yeah, they may have issues with the US, but unless they're gluttons for punishment the only thing the Palauians can get out of that kind of war is total annihilation, of not just their armed forces but also their economy. I also equate this to when Poland sent horses against the German tanks in WWII- do they really think they can win?

Yeah, there's the cause and everything, but it's still poorly planned. The venture can only lead to embarassment, and since my nation has more important things to worry about, I've decided that getting embarassed and amassing a huge debt in a one-sided slaughter just wouldn't be beneficial to me, so I pulled out. I just decided to make this official.

TPP 0002......
Chair Elections......
Awaiting Votes from......

17) The Hidden Vale of Loratana, (CENA)Alternate selected!
3) The Grand Duchy of YGSM, (the Isle of Lesbos).
4) The Planetary Republic of Cyrian Space, (Space).
5) The Dominion of the Irish Brotherhood, (Munster).
18) The Armed Republic of Krioval, (Chaotica)Alternate Selected
11) The Republic of The Roman UN Puppet, (The New Roman Empire).
15) The Free Land of McGonagall, (the South Pacific).

Could these members Make their way to the UNO forum Immediatly!

OOC: Thank you. I keep looking at the situation and think, "This is Crimmond and Automagfreek! Two of the most powerful nations in all of NS; and they think they can go in there with what they have and come out victorious?" I don't even think their populations even come close to what Crimmond and Automagfreek have seperately, if not together (most of TPP have under 100 million people, and I believe it's just Mik, myself and Ecopoeia who have over 1 billion, and just myself and Ecopoeia who have a population of 2 billion plus).

OOC: Um, actually Mikitivity is a 2.6+ billion nation (Jan. 2004). I'm only two months younger than Frisbeeteria. That is why I always considered DLE's (a Oct. 2004 nation) attempts (of Dec. 2004) to nuke Mikitivity a textbook example poor roleplaying.

But Crimmond and AF could clear Mikitivity either by size or roleplaying experience blindfolded and forced to type with their feet. They both have been around the block a few times. I call that a no contest situation.

As for my government committing to warfare, my budget is "roleplayed" as a bit strapped and focused on international humanitarian relief (less intervention), meaning if I wasn't about to hope off on vacation for 3 weeks in real life, I'd volunteer equal forces with a well organized coalition, but ultimately I think that the TPP should focus on the following:

1. Building a roster of *possible* contributions for a military intervention ... just a roster, to see how strong the force might be.

2. Carefully picking where to make its stand ... this is kinda what happens in the real world, we didn't rush to war with Germany at first. It wasn't until Germany really invaded Poland did the British declare war in 1939, and this was after the annexation of part of Czechoslavika and unification with Austria. These types of military inventions work best when big nations sit on little ones with delusions of granduer. The problem though is very few players come in and say, "Look, I'm a small third world nation!" Instead, it is common for a newbie to start up a nation and claim they are aliens with super weapons and they aren't afraid to use them. These are *some* of the cases the TPP should probably just ignore for *logistical* reasons.

3. Debate about how to conduct diplomatic means.

Frankly, love the activity of the TPP and think the Humanitarian Intervention resolution has done great things in tying RPing and UN activities. :) But even in light of Krioval's call to change the direction of things, I'd really respond by just suggesting we change the pace. Slow down, focus on smaller nations.

Though normally I'm not one for puppet wanking, I think it would be OK to find an experienced roleplayer who would like to TEACH rollplaying and see if they would coach a UN player along if we had a small puppet create a "Rwanda". That is what both the Eon Convention and Humanitarian Intervention resolutions seem to me well adapted to handle and prevent. It could be fun ...

If I didn't have the IRCO running around and no free time, I'd probably make a Banana Republic and start burning witches to see how nations would react.

But again, I want to stress, that I frankly just LOVE seeing all the activity and creativity that has poured into this. It is amazing, and we shouldn't loose sight of that. :)

1. Building a roster of *possible* contributions for a military intervention ... just a roster, to see how strong the force might be.
Excellent idea. Our defense budget just exceeded 3 trillion USD, so we're more than prepared to contribute a percentage of forces to this roster.

OOC: Um, actually Mikitivity is a 2.6+ billion nation (Jan. 2004). I'm only two months younger than Frisbeeteria. That is why I always considered DLE's (a Oct. 2004 nation) attempts (of Dec. 2004) to nuke Mikitivity a textbook example poor roleplaying.

But Crimmond and AF could clear Mikitivity either by size or roleplaying experience blindfolded and forced to type with their feet. They both have been around the block a few times. I call that a no contest situation.

OOC: My bad then, but still, it would have been 9B+ vs. maybe 5B+, tops. It would have been a disaster.

OOC: My bad then, but still, it would have been 9B+ vs. maybe 5B+, tops. It would have been a disaster.

OOC: Yes and no. If I were to commit my full forces, I'd probably talk to a few of my non-UN allies that are older than me. In other words, if I were really wanting to get involved, I'd argue we'd need to wait until we had numerical superiority just to prevent the type of thing you were saying would happen. But that said, I agree with what I think is your main point: which is we need to be very careful about where we send military forces, either as individual nations or coalitions. Correct me if I'm off here. And that is a point I agree with both IC and OOC. :)

For those who are militarilly mushy-minded:

For an offensive force to succeed against a defender, odds of at least 3:1 in favor of the attacking force are normally called for. Technology and/or intelligence can make up for the lack, as can some forms of assault - however, as no one here has clear experience in such activities, you would need at least three times the defensive strength of the nation you are attacking.

We won't even get into logistics, which would make such an activity even further a nightmare (particularly as everyone uses different bullets).

As to the comment about "poor role play" - *ahem* an FT starter nation can generally roll over an MT nation, particularly one lacking significant military spending. This is what I mean by "know who you're fighting". Vastiva is about four times the size of Krioval - but attacking it would be near to suicide due to their capabilities, and I do not refer merely to their military.

As to the comment about "poor role play" - *ahem* an FT starter nation can generally roll over an MT nation, particularly one lacking significant military spending. This is what I mean by "know who you're fighting". Vastiva is about four times the size of Krioval - but attacking it would be near to suicide due to their capabilities, and I do not refer merely to their military.

FT can also be a copout. "Uh, my 5 million people destroy your 5 billion people cuz we got ray guns". And some nations dislike even legitimately FT nations (for whatever reason), which is why I'm glad one can't be forced to roleplay with another. If one doesn't like the way another player RPs then one can just say "no". Otherwise NS is like on big pot of Roleplay Rape.

TPP 0002 Chair votes so far

Roman UN Puppet................... 1 vote
Bitewaldi................................ 2 votes
McGonagall............................. 2 votes
Enn........................................ 5 Votes

Remember to vote for a member of the 15 main Panel members and not the alternate 3

(Panel Member 6, Ecopoeia has withdrawn from procedings!... Replaced by Alternate 16 Magna Cartman. The Nation of deus Emperious is replaced on the Panel for non registration and inactivity with Alternate 17 Loratana. Members 7 and 18 are exchanging places on the Panel as member and Alternate as Engineering Chaos should be back to the Panel within 48 hours.)

Awaiting Votes from......
17) The Hidden Vale of Loratana, (CENA)
3) The Grand Duchy of YGSM, (the Isle of Lesbos).
4) The Planetary Republic of Cyrian Space, (Space).
5) The Dominion of the Irish Brotherhood, (Munster).
15) The Free Land of McGonagall, (the South Pacific).

Alternates Remaining.
18) The Federation of Engineering Chaos, (Empire of Diesel).
19) The Kingdom of Trowk, (Dextromethorphania).
20) The Democratic Federation of Grosseschnauzer, (International Democratic Union)


The 24 hour rule has been invoked and if the missing voters have not voted By 11 pm tonight, Grenwich Mean time, their votes will be counted as abstentions.

Further to the points made by Rome and Mik, a large population is obviously no guarantee of military strength. I believe Ecopoeia is the largest (read: oldest) nation on TPP, yet we're probably the least useful in a military effort on account of our military budget of, ah, zero. Not to mention an Imploded economy.

Um, that's not an invite to anyone seeking to expand their territory, by the way...

Furthermore, despite having a population of a whisker under 3 billion as measured by the game, I have no intention of roleplaying this absurd value. I'm trying to portray a struggling - and eccentric - 'third world' nation of some 15 million people. Much more interesting to me than being a superpower or a utopia.

So, two points:

- One, it would be very helpful for TPP members to clarfy how they perceive their nation's level of development.

- Two, prior to an investigation, I think we ought to seek the consent of the accused to roleplay the investigation. Incidentally, impotence in the face of genocide is not in itself a problem in game terms. It creates its own interesting RP possibilities.

As to the comment about "poor role play" - *ahem* an FT starter nation can generally roll over an MT nation, particularly one lacking significant military spending. This is what I mean by "know who you're fighting". Vastiva is about four times the size of Krioval - but attacking it would be near to suicide due to their capabilities, and I do not refer merely to their military.

Who said Mikitivity is a MT nation? I've never said that.

In fact, it is a matter of record that Mikitivity is at best described as being Modern-Fantasy or "Weird Fiction" (think H.P. Lovecraft, Twilight Zone, or Marvel Comics). I've never used technology to trump another player, but I have constantly used technology or fantasy to respond to another players godmoding.

The reason DLE was a poor roleplayer is she assumed she would walk into a forum and instantly be recognized by all as being the superior military force. That's a bit naive. Things don't work like that in NationStates, because you are 100% correct, you need to know who you're fighting. She didn't.


Moving to the larger picture ...

Roleplaying, isn't just telling your story, but placing yourself in the role of a character or setting, and responding to other people's stories.

For example, Roleplaying games (PRGs), think D&D or Vampire, have players and some sort of mediator / game master. The players usually limit themselves to telling only parts of the story, while the mediator / judge / whatever fills in the gaps.

In NationStates there is no *single* judge, but the halmark of a good roleplayer is more than just being an interesting story teller. It also means working *with* another player.

In the case of UN roleplaying, there is a larger audience and it simply is harder to bridge story to story, after all, Future Tech, Modern Tech, and Fantasy Tech nations all are trying to pull in and pretend that the same UN resolutions apply to them. That means if you are going to actively RP in the UN or with other UN members, you are going to have to not just assume you are the biggest baddest tech on the block, but RESEARCH and ask questions.

With Crimmond and TPP, the some minor mistakes were made. From what I gathered, nobody *asked* Crimmond to help guide the roleplay. I could be wrong, as C or J could have done. When a nation is attacked, it is typically their assets that are being discussed. Naturally they should ultimately have say in how the roleplay evolves and should be asked. If they aren't interested, I.G.N.O.R.E. cannons are fired, and the roleplay ends.

As for the Pretenama Panel, when we were charged with responding to Belem's extermination of HIV / AIDS infected people, I simply telegrammed Belem and asked a few questions. He / She was happy to reply and extremely polite. Granted there were not enough nations to hold a TPP, but the economic sanctions from the TPP members were fun.

- Two, prior to an investigation, I think we ought to seek the consent of the accused to roleplay the investigation. Incidentally, impotence in the face of genocide is not in itself a problem in game terms. It creates its own interesting RP possibilities.

Eureka! I like this idea. I can't recall how much warning or consent genocide RPers had of TPP's involvement before the panel process began in the cases TPP involved in the cases it has been involved in. Er, what I mean is TPP should probably have a nice "OOC: Hey, would you like to RP the Petranama Panel in this genocide RP? We're really cool and we promise it'll make things interesting, Here's what we're about..." before runnin' up on someone's lawn with guns drawn. I think that'd provide consent, direction, and much much more.

I mean, I know TPP roleplays that it is called into involvement in every genocide case there is or that one of its members raises the alarm for. But maybe it'd help relations and make the RPs a little more amiable, if TPP asked if the RPers wanted TPP involved before becoming involved--OOC that is. In Character it'd be kind of silly for TPP to ask a nation "are we allowed to object to your crimes against humanity?" But Out of Character, it could explain the part TPP could play in the RP and let the RP author decide who gets involved. And there also the ground-rules could be set for technology levels and so forth.

Furthermore, despite having a population of a whisker under 3 billion as measured by the game, I have no intention of roleplaying this absurd value. I'm trying to portray a struggling - and eccentric - 'third world' nation of some 15 million people. Much more interesting to me than being a superpower or a utopia.

OOC: I agree. I, in the few times I've gotten around to it, imagine my couhntry as a post-communist state struggling through ethnic tensions, uneasy democracy, as well as the inevitable plutocracy of a newly privatized economy. It's flawed, and that's what makes it interesting. It's like in AD&D, the real life fantasy role-playing game, it's sort of fun to be a genius behemoth--with divine looks and 50,000 hit points. But in reality, it's much more entertaining to have to act dumb (from a low intelligence attribute), or have to talk your way out of a fight (from low strength or low hit points--constitution) or to find a fun way to perform with some flaw intrinsic to your character.

To me, RP is improvisational theater, or improvisational literature. No literature or theater I know--that's entertaining--descirbes every character involved as a "perfect" being (or nation). In fact, no good literature or theater I know have any perfect characters There have to be flaws, or else there's no story.

Anyway, enough "what roleplaying means to me". I agree. Plain and simple.

Eureka! I like this idea. I can't recall how much warning or consent genocide RPers had of TPP's involvement before the panel process began in the cases TPP involved in the cases it has been involved in. Er, what I mean is TPP should probably have a nice "OOC: Hey, would you like to RP the Petranama Panel in this genocide RP? We're really cool and we promise it'll make things interesting, Here's what we're about..." before runnin' up on someone's lawn with guns drawn. I think that'd provide consent, direction, and much much more.


This is what I think we all agree is the ideal way to go. :)

I must say, I've enjoyed the elections process for chairs ... part of the fun seems to be just deciding when and where to start the process.

TPP 0002 Chair has been selected. I hereby declare the Representative of Enn as the second Pretenema Panel Chair.

Roman UN Puppet................... 1 vote
Bitewaldi................................ 2 votes
McGonagall............................. 2 votes
Enn........................................ 6 Votes

The Venerable Libertarians will now stand down and allow Enn to take control of this investigation. May Your Judgement be level, Swift and Just.

Abstentions
17) The Hidden Vale of Loratana, (CENA)
3) The Grand Duchy of YGSM, (the Isle of Lesbos).
5) The Dominion of the Irish Brotherhood, (Munster).
15) The Free Land of McGonagall, (the South Pacific).

Alternates Remaining.
[color=gray]18) The Federation of Engineering Chaos, (Empire of Diesel).
19) The Kingdom of Trowk, (Dextromethorphania).
20) The Democratic Federation of Grosseschnauzer, (International Democratic Union)[/color

Just wonderful. Particularly since my TPP rep is a somewhat neurotic Lieutenant with an emperor complex.

Further on from the big Mik/PC/Ecopoeia discussion, I consider what people say about their nation to often be more important than what the stats say. I've got a nation that consists of one single city, about the same size as RL Canberra, with about 2.5 billion people living in comfort. Just how this works is something I've let become a state secret, along with the real recipe to the Ennish shandy.
According to the stats, Enn also has no defense budget - I've worked around that by combining the police and military into one giant organisation, half funded by a single person, the other half coming from the Police budget.

OOC: Yes and no. If I were to commit my full forces, I'd probably talk to a few of my non-UN allies that are older than me. In other words, if I were really wanting to get involved, I'd argue we'd need to wait until we had numerical superiority just to prevent the type of thing you were saying would happen. But that said, I agree with what I think is your main point: which is we need to be very careful about where we send military forces, either as individual nations or coalitions. Correct me if I'm off here. And that is a point I agree with both IC and OOC. :)

OOC: Yeah, but it appeared to me that TPP had already went to Crimmond, guns blazing and with war already declared, with a force so small and ineffectual I described it as merely the lion's appetizer. That's why I withdrew since, to be honest, there really didn't seem to be any kind of leadership at the helm of all this military activity, and, frankly, our nation had better things to do with its time. However, it does look like TPP is trying to correct itself, which is a noble act.

I'll agree with what others are saying- certainly, we need to co-ordinate our RP's better with the nations involved, setting agreeable tech levels and weapons and perhaps setting an OOC parameter saying that we get to finish our investigation first before the genocide is over, so we're not declared "impotent" again. Still, this is a young organization- hopefully, we'll learn from our mistakes and truly create "the UN's army".

we'll learn from our mistakes and truly create "the UN's army".
Absolutely NOT what TPP is about! Any Army mobilised by the Pretenema Panel has a mandate by the panel, Not the UN, And may have troops from Non UN Nations.
The UN does not and Will not have its own military and the Pretenema Panel does not and will not strive to provide one. Lets not confuse this people.

Absolutely NOT what TPP is about! Any Army mobilised by the Pretenema Panel has a mandate by the panel, Not the UN, And may have troops from Non UN Nations.
The UN does not and Will not have its own military and the Pretenema Panel does not and will not strive to provide one. Lets not confuse this people.

It's a metaphor. Yeah, the UN does not *officially* have an army, but this is a military force raised by UN decree, which, practically speaking, makes it a UN army. It's kind of like what the Crusaders were supposed to be- like TPP, they were organized by whomever could come to pledge troops for the Pope's call, and disbanded shortly afterward. Besides, what's not to say that eventually TPP gets used for imperialistic ambitions...it can't remain *noble* ALL the time.

It's a metaphor. Yeah, the UN does not *officially* have an army, but this is a military force raised by UN decree, which, practically speaking, makes it a UN army. It's kind of like what the Crusaders were supposed to be- like TPP, they were organized by whomever could come to pledge troops for the Pope's call, and disbanded shortly afterward. Besides, what's not to say that eventually TPP gets used for imperialistic ambitions...it can't remain *noble* ALL the time.

OOC: It's not really "a military force raised by UN decree", since the decision of creating a military force does not rest with the UN directly. In other words, even though TPP is a UN organization with a UN mandate, it never acts at the direct request of the UN.

It would be interesting to get a couple of people RPing an attempted "imperialist" takeover via TPP, though.

OOC: It's not really "a military force raised by UN decree", since the decision of creating a military force does not rest with the UN directly. In other words, even though TPP is a UN organization with a UN mandate, it never acts at the direct request of the UN.

TPP is tied to the UN, and, while it does not need, technically speaking, the whole UN to get it in action (via a Resolution), it is still only open to UN members and was created by a UN mandate. Also, to the uninitiated, it appears to be a "UN force"- Crimmond themselves labelled it as such. Technically, it's not a UN force, but in practice it *is* an army raised by UN mandate, and the only legal one that can do so.

TPP is tied to the UN, and, while it does not need, technically speaking, the whole UN to get it in action (via a Resolution), it is still only open to UN members and was created by a UN mandate. Also, to the uninitiated, it appears to be a "UN force"- Crimmond themselves labelled it as such. Technically, it's not a UN force, but in practice it *is* an army raised by UN mandate, and the only legal one that can do so.

Actually, the force is supposed to be raised by parties wishing to intervene. They first come to TPP for guidance and "permission". Guidance on how best to go about the intervention. Permission in the loosest sense of the word as they don't need TPP's say so, but they can advise them on whether intervention is justified and/or wise.

TPP members may help in intervention efforts, but that is the choice of the individual nation. TPP members are not required to help any efforts to intervene. Merely to judge and advise on any actions.

Actually, the force is supposed to be raised by parties wishing to intervene. They first come to TPP for guidance and "permission". Guidance on how best to go about the intervention. Permission in the loosest sense of the word as they don't need TPP's say so, but they can advise them on whether intervention is justified and/or wise.

TPP members may help in intervention efforts, but that is the choice of the individual nation. TPP members are not required to help any efforts to intervene. Merely to judge and advise on any actions.

I'm aware of the technicalities- but it is STILL the *only* legal army that the UN can raise. Technically, it's not an UN army- in practice, it is, because the organization that authorizes an intervention force, as well as the rules dictating how to intervene, was created by the UN. Besides, I don't believe it'll be long before someone uses TPP for imperialistic means, or simply just to enforce UN Resolutions everywhere.

Besides, I don't believe it'll be long before someone uses TPP for imperialistic means, or simply just to enforce UN Resolutions everywhere.

Not Possible. The Pretenema Panel has no mandate other than to investigate accusations of Genocide. Accusations of Human Rights abuses and slavery have been turned away from the panel as TPP has no mandate to investigate those. This has been Pointed out By Krioval in his attempts to deride the efforts of the Panel.

Not Possible. The Pretenema Panel has no mandate other than to investigate accusations of Genocide. Accusations of Human Rights abuses and slavery have been turned away from the panel as TPP has no mandate to investigate those. This has been Pointed out By Krioval in his attempts to deride the efforts of the Panel.

I know what it's SUPPOSED to be for- but there's no such thing an uncorruptable organization, TPP included.

(OOC: Maybe I need to provide an example of an imperialist use for TPP. Hmmnn....)

OOC regarding rome w's OOC. where you supposed to think that out loud?
lol. Should we Expect you?

OOC regarding rome w's OOC. where you supposed to think that out loud?
lol. Should we Expect you?

I suppose not, LOL. I call it "safeguarding", so that no one can say that- if and when I do think of something to "corrupt" TPP- "in character" they knew I would do it. I realize that this is all OOC anyway, but better "safe than sorry" as they say...

Okay, I don't mean to gravedig if this is, but I think this could be of use for TPP.

A few posts ago, I postulated the idea that it'd only be a matter of time before someone uses TPP for imperialistic means. Well, that time has come. My main nation is on the NS Earth (obviously), and I've thought about expanding into Switzerland (AKA Helevetica, the Latin name), because my economy is a little bit in the dumps and the Heleveticans could provide me a big boost. I could just simply claim it (because NS Earth is liberal about those things), but I figured that I could somehow tie this imperialistic need with TPP. Here's the idea:

-The Heleveticans, which border me, also control Venetia and Croatia, and will start a genocide against the Italians (in Venetia) and the Croats.

-The genocide will be used as a pretext for my own invasion, which will be aided by TPP.

-Once it's all done, Helevetica becomes mine, while the Venetians and Croats regain their liberty.

Now, all I'd need is someone to be Helevetica and then I'd be set, although if TPP does not want to take part in this RP I just won't do it (because the whole idea for the RP was to use TPP for imperialistic means). Thoughts?

(If this wasn't clear before, this was ALL OOC)

Okay, I don't mean to gravedig if this is, but I think this could be of use for TPP.

A few posts ago, I postulated the idea that it'd only be a matter of time before someone uses TPP for imperialistic means. Well, that time has come. My main nation is on the NS Earth (obviously), and I've thought about expanding into Switzerland (AKA Helevetica, the Latin name), because my economy is a little bit in the dumps and the Heleveticans could provide me a big boost. I could just simply claim it (because NS Earth is liberal about those things), but I figured that I could somehow tie this imperialistic need with TPP. Here's the idea:

-The Heleveticans, which border me, also control Venetia and Croatia, and will start a genocide against the Italians (in Venetia) and the Croats.

-The genocide will be used as a pretext for my own invasion, which will be aided by TPP.

-Once it's all done, Helevetica becomes mine, while the Venetians and Croats regain their liberty.

Now, all I'd need is someone to be Helevetica and then I'd be set, although if TPP does not want to take part in this RP I just won't do it (because the whole idea for the RP was to use TPP for imperialistic means). Thoughts?

(If this wasn't clear before, this was ALL OOC)

OOC OR IC. wrong. it clearly states that No member of TPP can benefit from any Intervention. Nice try :D
4.0 Legal Proceedings
• TPP will act in accordance to UN resolutions, and their guidelines and goals for intervention will incorporate these.
• Members of TPP (And of the intervening coalition) are prohibited from getting reparations or spoils of war.
• Any post-intervention state-building must be done in the best interest of the state in question. Intervening nations may not use this as an opportunity to unduly promote their own businesses and economies.

Bold Highlighting by the Venerable Libertarians

OOC OR IC. wrong. it clearly states that No member of TPP can benefit from any Intervention. Nice try :D


Bold Highlighting by the Venerable Libertarians

OOC: Consider this:

As Article 4 states (bolding mine):

"Any post-intervention state-building must be done in the best interest of the state in question. Intervening nations may not use this as an opportunity to unduly promote their own businesses and economies."

What if, say, it could be declared that "in the best interest of the state, the state be annexed to country B" or that it be "cut up"? At the end of World War I, Austria and Turkey were considerably broken up under the guise of nationalism- what if a similar situation developed here? Genocides can come in response to secession threats, and the only way to solve those is to give the people in question independence. Besides, what if the targeted population WANTS the intervening state to take over the other state so that the genocides don't happen again (entirely possible since TPP ultimately works in the interest of the targeted population)? Or, which can also be completely possible, the majority of the population in the state WANTS the invaders to rule their land (it IS possible)?

The principle problem with TPP is that it can call for the removal of the ruler that ordered the genocide, and, in a perfect system, that ruler would be replaced by a local ruler who is not tied to any of the intervening states. In practice, this is not the case- as is most often the case in history, any time an intervening state replaces a ruler in another nation it's almost always with someone who will be nothing more than a puppet. In a case such as this (with the nation bordering me), the replacement would have to go through me, and I'd probably want someone who I can "control". Eventually, this process can bring that nation into my control, either through rigged or honest plebiscites (I'd probably go with the latter, which IS possible, because, remember, it is theoretically possible for the local population to want the invading state to take over). Besides, what's to say that, in the future, the relations between the two states degenerates that the other state has to impose their power over the other state?

My point being is that TPP CAN be swung to appease imperialistic means, due to the loopholes in TPP rules. Besides, I think a RP like this would actually be fun so I think it should be considered. Bend the rules if we have to (because there's no such thing as an organization where the rules are ALWAYS followed to a "T"), but it'd still be a fun endeavor.

Well, I'm fine with having a go at this. But I wouldn't want to be the Chair of such an investigation.

While the genocide may well be brought to the attention of TPP, and they would be obliged to investigate, and even choose to intervene, it would be very unlikely to allow a TPP member or an accusing nation to benefit from the process. This is incorporated into the rules of TPP. I doubt you would get 10 of the panel members to vote in favour of this.

I do see your argument though- if annexation was both in their best interests and what they actually wanted, should it be allowed? But if this is the case, why hasn't your country already invaded? Or why isn't their popular rebellion amidst these people? But it is clearly outlawed in TPP legislation. What might be possible would be to grant the people their independence as their own sovereign state, and then if somewhere down the line they choose to become a part of your country then that would be fine. I'm just thinking as I type here...

I don't think the current political climate is appropriate to test this theory now though. It would be a very interesting case and I would like to RP it, but I would prefer to wait a while. And I swear to God, if someone quotes me on this in the Repeal HI thread I will not be amused. That would not be appropriate. I am talking OOC and RP here.

While the genocide may well be brought to the attention of TPP, and they would be obliged to investigate, and even choose to intervene, it would be very unlikely to allow a TPP member or an accusing nation to benefit from the process. This is incorporated into the rules of TPP. I doubt you would get 10 of the panel members to vote in favour of this.

I do see your argument though- if annexation was both in their best interests and what they actually wanted, should it be allowed? But if this is the case, why hasn't your country already invaded? Or why isn't their popular rebellion amidst these people? But it is clearly outlawed in TPP legislation. What might be possible would be to grant the people their independence as their own sovereign state, and then if somewhere down the line they choose to become a part of your country then that would be fine. I'm just thinking as I type here...

I don't think the current political climate is appropriate to test this theory now though. It would be a very interesting case and I would like to RP it, but I would prefer to wait a while. And I swear to God, if someone quotes me on this in the Repeal HI thread I will not be amused. That would not be appropriate. I am talking OOC and RP here.

Hmmm...I see. In my situation, assume that the Helvetii (Swiss), Venetians and Croats are all ruled by a single but large, rather protectionist and paranoid family (much like the old shady monarchies of the past). Their lives are pretty much allowed to go unhindered, but the state pours much of its budget in ensuring that every little peep of protest gets crushed in the most brutal of manners. The people of Helvetica wouldn't necessarily pine for Roman rule, but in this case they'd happily embrace their "liberators" and be happy to be ruled directly from Rome, especially considering the Roman Empire is developing into a federation anyway (although how to explain why Venetia and Croatia get to become independent escapes me, but I'll figure it out). Why the Romans haven't gone in there is simple- so far, all they've heard are rumors that there's trouble brewing in Helvetica and, because of the Helveticans' control over every mass media outlet in their nation, the Romans wouldn't necessarily get the "clear" picture of the plight of their neighbours. Thus, if the Romans outright invade Helvetica, the public may not be behind it due to concerns over legitimacy (I don't mean to hit any sore spots if I do, but it's like the friend you see one day come from home and look all depressed and beaten up- you may sense that something's going on there but you can't really know for sure).

(Oh, and for those wondering why the Romans of all people would care about legitimate reasons for fighting a war- the Romans always held themselves to be an "honourable" people, and in today's day and age, it's simply not honourable to fight "illegitimate" wars. Imperialism is a tough sell these days)

Besides, as I said before, there's ways to *twist* the rules to allow for an annexation- install a puppet, destroy the government so much that the people would *have* to accept new rulers, etc. Regardless, if the Romans want something, they get it- if they have to be sneaky (which is usually the weapon of choice) they do so (just in a seemingly-honourable way, of course).

Thanks for your input, though, Gwenstefani, and I sympathize with your want (I believe) of TPP to actually have a successful and noble campaign before corrupting it. I want to see other reactions too, but so far it seems positive. If this can't be done today, I'll cook up another story involving the border- you know, Gaul's been out of my grasp for centuries...imagine the possibilities ;) .

Cobdenia has moved to Abyss

Could all the Members of the Macton Investigation please vote on the Current Intervention proposal.
OOC. Guys this is taking way too long.