NationStates Jolt Archive

babau

Here comes my project of resolution on Crimes against humanity
Sorry for my deficient english, I'm french mother toungue
Hope you will contribute to improve it.
Please give your opinion.

First, read the passed resolutions. This is mostly covered.

Determined that the UN has a role to play in reconizing he needs of fighting against the crimes against humanity.

Affirming that human beings have fundamental rights, recognizing this rights of all peoples, and crimes against this rights imprecriptibles in reason of theirs strong offense to human dignity.

The only fundemental right you have is them right to die. The rest can be taken away or given up. Therefore, this either protects something that doesn't need protecting or attempts to mislabel other items in hopes of protecting them.

Oh, already covered.

Concerned by fundamental rights saving and by offer the best protective statut to prevent crimes against humanity.

Already covered.

Recognizing the need to respect & promote the fundamental rights of human beings and aibility to sue criminals for offenses against it.

Very dangerous. Let the law handle it.

Recognizing that human beings have the right to live in peace whatever of their race, culture or religion

Not a right, but a privilage. It can be too easily taken away to be a right.

Recognizing the need to inforce protection for the more vulnerable people especially childrens.

Already covered.

Proclaims the following:

§1 Defines Crimes against humanity of first espece as
a number of practices, including murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation or forcible transfer of population, imprisonment, torture, rape, persecution, and other inhuman acts directed against any civilian population when committed on a widespread or systematic basis. Crimes against humanity can be committed in times of war or in times of peace. While crimes against humanity were originally linked to war crimes, developments since have made it clear that no connection with an armed conflict is required.

Already covered.

§2 By extension Crimes against humanity of the second espece are defined as mass murder terrorism in where innocent civilians be punished for the actions of their government. This definition including all act of terrorism whatever the way it take to realize mass murder of innocent civilians.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Already covered.

§3 By extension Crimes agains humanity of the third espece are defined as mass rapes in war time by armies or militias. The rape in such condition could not been senn as war acts, independament of possible orders from military or governmental authorities. In such a case both the raper and the autorithies is responsible for the crimes against humanity.

Already covered.

§4 By extension crimes against humanity of the fourth espece are defined as individual rapes on innocent childrens. This definition is valid such in war times than in peace time. Every single children rapes is constitutive of a crime against humanity by the offense done on innocent victim and because of the strong trauma it occurs.

Already covered.

§5 All crimes against humanity are considering as baning the criminal of the civilized human beings.

Huh?

Also, find some actual civilized human beings. I'm still searching for them.

§6 The UN recognize an imprescriptible right to vctims of such kind of crimes to take the criminal to court.

Potentially dangerous. The criminal can turn it around on the victim and make it out for the victim to be guilty. Quite a few rapists in real life have been acquitted that way.

§7 In consequence, every crimes against humanity will be grant an imprescriptibility lequal statut in the ensemble of the nations members of the UN as soon

Already covered, in a form.

§8 The Crimes against humanity will be judged in an International penal court. The international penal court will be competent whatever the teritorially court competence.

Already covered.

§9 Victims of such kind of crimes will be allowed to ask the international penal court to recognize the damages and to grant financials compensations.

I think this may already be covered, but in any case it provides a potential danger of its own.

DLE, nobody is going to believe that something is already covered just by the fact that you proclaim it is covered. Perhaps you could assist the author (and other readers) by actually citing resolutions which you claim address the issues this author is attempting to address. (I have recently found that, when someone presents the "already covered" argument and is pressed to support the assertion, the evidence is usually lacking).

Such a practice of citing prior UN proposals will enhance all of our understandings of current UN law (and it will make your argument of "already covered" easier to evaluate.)

If they are to post new proposals, they need to make sure they read the passed resolutions. This one is particular is covered by at least three resolutions (UBR, Eon Convention, Child Protection) and maybe a few others as well. But if they cannot be bothered to read the passed resolutions, you'll find many of us cannot be bothered to point out which ones cover the topic.

The requirement of reading the passed resolutions doesn't change just because you are new.

What DLE said. You only have 6 pages of resolutions to read, and you can just skim most of them.

... (UBR, Eon Convention, Child Protection)...

See, that didn't hurt that much, now did it? A total of 40 keystrokes (a mere drop in the bucket, relative to the sheer volume of your postings on these forums). A rather modest price to pay to 1. introduce a new player to the game and 2. provide some basis upon which your arguments can be evaluated.

You should argue it's too much or something like that but telling the precedents resolutions are guaranting same quality of protection is lying.

I read all the resolution and nowere was told than sexual assault is crime against humanity. You could said they're is protection for children, I'm agree and where do it mention imprecriptibility ?

Hear Hear!!



You should find me upset but that is what upseting me ! because you just announce opinions and have nothing to proove anything. If you have i'll be happy to see it because it will be a start of productive process and will be a start to make real improvement for my proposal.

That is only what i was looking for by presenting this proposal to others, improve it. If needed to drop it, i will not be ill about that. But with your opinion with no fact what can I be able to expect.



Alright!

Well said, Paradoxian Alexandria! And I must say, I certainly look forward to seeing how well DLE "shreds things apart" when our honorable colleague has to deal with the facts.

See, that didn't hurt that much, now did it? A total of 40 keystrokes (a mere drop in the bucket, relative to the sheer volume of your postings on these forums). A rather modest price to pay to 1. introduce a new player to the game and 2. provide some basis upon which your arguments can be evaluated.

If they can't be arsed reading the previous resolutions, why should we bother pointing them out?

I know it doesn't seem like it takes a lot of time, but 40 keystrokes per post, one post per new user, around 200 new users a week ---- 80,000 keystrokes.

I will agree we could all (most of us) do to be more tolerant with new users, but when you type the same thing over and over (and not to mention OVER) again there does come a time when tolerance just vanishes. It's only natural.

If they can't be arsed reading the previous resolutions, why should we bother pointing them out?

I know it doesn't seem like it takes a lot of time, but 40 keystrokes per post, one post per new user, around 200 new users a week ---- 80,000 keystrokes.

I will agree we could all (most of us) do to be more tolerant with new users, but when you type the same thing over and over (and not to mention OVER) again there does come a time when tolerance just vanishes. It's only natural.

Yes, but I consider the fact that DLE went through and quoted each section of the proposal and typed "Already covered" thereunder repeatedly as evidence that his purpose was perhaps not not much to save time, but perhaps more to to "rip something to shreds." If he is going to take the time to do his signature "line by line refutation," he can take the time to say, "already covered by such & such."

In fact, it would take less time (and be more helpful) if someone would post a one-liner response:

"Please consider [insert relevant law], and any other relevant proposals which might be found in the UN listings."

That would be the best approach, I would imagine. I just want the argument here to be as constructive as possible. Anything less is a waste of my nation's time.

I read all the resolution and nowere was told than sexual assault is crime against humanity. You could said they're is protection for children, I'm agree and where do it mention imprecriptibility ?


Firstly - Sexual assult against one person is not a crime against humanity. That is a rather crazy leap of logic to follow.

And The EON Convention on Genocide (a document of which I have some knowledge) defines genocide as including "murder, torture, enslavement, rape, forced pregnancy and familial separation". Which I believe answers your question.

The Child Protection Act indicates that children are protected in a lot of ways. And if that were no enough there is a resolution called Outlaw Pedophillia, and a resolution called "Children in War" that protects the rights of displaced populations of children during war time.



You think it's only few criminals who escape, you're wrong. I maybe a newcomer, but I've read the precedent resolution an can argue the one i purpose offer better protection to victims.


The EON Convention details, in great detail, how these criminals will be punished if they are caught. However it doesn't promise they will be caught, because no one can primse that - it is impossible to do so.


I'm not saying it's a definitive proposal, if i was thinking, i just put it in the queue of UN résolution proposal.


(grin) Which is fair enough. However it is good advice that - if you are setting out to write a proposal that you read the titles of all the passed resoultions, and you read any that you think might cover what you are going to write about.


You could argue to be older than me on Nationstates' UN and that kind of things, and so what ? My purposal is to increase the protection of things who are not considered ordinary as crimes against humanity and grant them equal protection to crimes against humanity.


I am sorry to get annoyed about this, but the rape of one woman, the murder of one man is NOT a crime against humanity. It is a crime. And to consider the murder of one person on a street to be comparable to the mass execution of thousands and thousands of people is not only an insane leap of logic, it is insulting as well.


I especially studied if the proposition is useful and what I have to said is that it will be really useful IRL so It will be too in Nationstates.


Again - I disagree. If in real life everyone who committed a single murder was taken to The Hauge for crimes against humanity then pretty much all law, order and justice would crumble and the world would plunge in to anarchy.
Yes - if someone murders one person they are not a nice guy, and if they escape justice they should be pursued until they are caught. But one murder is not a crime against humanity, it is a crime against one person.

To elevate a single murder to the classification of a crime against humanity is not something that is useful - it is dangerous and very bad.


You should find me upset but that is what upseting me ! because you just announce opinions and have nothing to proove anything. If you have i'll be happy to see it because it will be a start of productive process and will be a start to make real improvement for my proposal.


I think the best way to improve it would be to abandon it. This is not meant to be insulting or rude, but half of your proposal is already covered, and the other half is over the top and dangerous.


That is only what i was looking for by presenting this proposal to others, improve it. If needed to drop it, i will not be ill about that. But with your opinion with no fact what can I be able to expect.


Hopefully I have provided some facts about this.


For myself I will read the proposal you point and will think about a new form for my proposal according to that.

If you are going to do it, I really would consider reading the above mentioned resolutions, and not comapring a single crime against a single person to genocide, because it is somewhat incomparable.

That would be the best approach, I would imagine. I just want the argument here to be as constructive as possible. Anything less is a waste of my nation's time.

That much I would agree with :}

That much I would agree with :}

Your government and my government do quite well at finding common ground, if indeed I may say so!

See, that didn't hurt that much, now did it? A total of 40 keystrokes (a mere drop in the bucket, relative to the sheer volume of your postings on these forums). A rather modest price to pay to 1. introduce a new player to the game and 2. provide some basis upon which your arguments can be evaluated.

Actually, you're wrong on that issue. It takes more than forty keystrokes, as you have to type the full name or provide links and then quote the sections that directly contradict what they are saying. If they had bothered to read the passed resolutions, I wouldn't need to type anything at all. You have to stop and think about the truth of the matter and realize the only reason you knew what I was refering to is because you have been here awhile and actually read those.

Yes, but I consider the fact that DLE went through and quoted each section of the proposal and typed "Already covered" thereunder repeatedly as evidence that his purpose was perhaps not not much to save time, but perhaps more to to "rip something to shreds." If he is going to take the time to do his signature "line by line refutation," he can take the time to say, "already covered by such & such."

Actually, I only typed it once. Copy and paste works wonders.

In fact, it would take less time (and be more helpful) if someone would post a one-liner response:

"Please consider [insert relevant law], and any other relevant proposals which might be found in the UN listings."

That would be the best approach, I would imagine. I just want the argument here to be as constructive as possible. Anything less is a waste of my nation's time.

Typing that to each newbie once a day is a waste of time and effort. Plus, it helps to go through point-by-point and point out which is already covered.

That's really something true. You know why no criminal have been acquited by that way, because when time is past victims are unable to do something against the criminals. technically they're not acquitted, they just escape what they deserves.

Let me quote the dictionary for you, since I see no indications that NS overrides the definition.

Main Entry: ac·quit
Pronunciation: &-'kwit
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ac·quit·ted; ac·quit·ting
Etymology: Middle English aquiten, from Old French aquiter, from a- (from Latin ad-) + quite free of -- more at QUIT
1 a archaic : to pay off (as a claim or debt) b obsolete : REPAY, REQUITE
2 : to discharge completely (as from an obligation or accusation) <the court acquitted the prisoner>
3 : to conduct (oneself) usually satisfactorily especially under stress <the recruits acquitted themselves like veterans>
synonym see BEHAVE, EXCULPATE
- ac·quit·ter noun

The bolded portion is relevant here. Technically, they have been acquitted.

Think that is dangerous or something not adapted, without interest that's your right. But did you think about all the children abused with strong trauma.

Which is illegal under the Child Protection Act.

Most of them just are unable to remember what happened, especially when rapist is part of the familly.

That's what physical evidence is for.

They're is already protection against incest and rape ok but the progress is not only to protect something unprotected but also to enforce the law and increase the protection. It would be stupid to say it's no use to make something to enforce protection just because there's already something.
What about inadequate protection, if a murdered risk only a fine will it be good enough for you ? would you not want to increase the protection ?

The problem is the fact we have no option of not obeying those proposals. Providing a system of enforcement is useless because it is enforced, whether you want it to be or not. That is in the FAQ.

Some incest victim only remember the things many years after, some only at 50, 60 even more or ...never.

Um, not everyone who participates in incest is a victim. You can't rape the willing. It's considered somewhat sick, but some nations allow it if the partner can be proven willing.

Some states have taking such kind of protection to protect the best the victims interest. You should argue it's too much or something like that but telling the precedents resolutions are guaranting same quality of protection is lying.

States? You must be talking about real life.

This is NS, not the US. On here, things are much different. On here, you cannot disobey the UN if you are a member.

I read all the resolution and nowere was told than sexual assault is crime against humanity. You could said they're is protection for children, I'm agree and where do it mention imprecriptibility ?

You obviously didn't read all of the resolutions, as it specifically mentions rape in the Eon Convention and there is a law on the UN books that outlaws pedophilia.

You think it's only few criminals who escape, you're wrong. I maybe a newcomer, but I've read the precedent resolution an can argue the one i purpose offer better protection to victims.

No, it doesn't. It offers up the same protections provided by five resolutions on the books and then allows the victims to sue, which can turn things around against them. Even in courts of law in real life many victims are essentially ruined in court by the rapist. Specifying they can sue puts an undue burden on many legal systems and won't actually result in much change beyond the taxpayers paying even more.

I'm not saying it's a definitive proposal, if i was thinking, i just put it in the queue of UN résolution proposal.

You could argue to be older than me on Nationstates' UN and that kind of things, and so what ? My purposal is to increase the protection of things who are not considered ordinary as crimes against humanity and grant them equal protection to crimes against humanity.

With the exception of lawsuits, those items already are protected. The Universal Bill of Rights, three resolutions dealing with children, and the Eon Convention on Genocide all deal with this in some form or another. Plus, the Eon Convention actually establishes a court to deal with it. So all you are doing is taking a bunch of resolutions, combining them together, and adding a portion they haven't covered.

I especially studied if the proposition is useful and what I have to said is that it will be really useful IRL so It will be too in Nationstates.

In real life such measures have been in place for years and often fail anyway.

I thank's you to pointing me some point I certainly have to re-work because of others proposal proximity but for your opinion i suggeste you to make research on the subjet before saying than "Quite a few rapists in real life have been acquitted that way". because if you sudying real cases, you should learn really than you're wrong if you are able to be objective.

You have never actually been to a rape case, have you?

The typical rapist, if they are smart, makes a case for the victim comming on to them. They get their friends to join in and provide "evidence" of that. It then comes around to the victim to prove they were not inviting the sexual advances and results and that they really are a victim. And that's actually a common defense.

You arguing I did not read the proposal , that's false but as I deliberaty mentioned I'm french in mother toungue so I should have difficulties to understand the whole things, did you not know that we're are mentally underdeveloped because of not speaking english ? Now I would like to know on what facts did you argue than "Quite a few rapists in real life have been acquitted that way.".

Okay, now you're taking this out of context and trying to turn yourself into a victim when you aren't one. You're just another new person I don't honestly care about who, going by the common samples, posted a proposal that either needs revision or simply dropped. You have gotten no special treatment and will get none. And I would call you on the emotive statement, but I feel my point has been made. Check the posting history of someone before you accuse them of discrimination.

You should find me upset but that is what upseting me ! because you just announce opinions and have nothing to proove anything. If you have i'll be happy to see it because it will be a start of productive process and will be a start to make real improvement for my proposal.

Once again, proof you didn't read the passed resolutions. I have referred to a lot of my evidence and anyone who looks at the forum can find the texts of them without bothering to even leave the forum. It's stickied at the top.

That is only what i was looking for by presenting this proposal to others, improve it. If needed to drop it, i will not be ill about that. But with your opinion with no fact what can I be able to expect.

The facts are that it is mostly covered. Check the resolutions I mentioned and those mentioned by TilEnca. This has potential, but at the same time a lot of it is just waste that is easily dealt with by pointing to other resolutions and moving on.

For myself I will read the proposal you point and will think about a new form for my proposal according to that.

All you need to do is reference the mentioned resolutions and then expand on the court issue. If you're going to do one on courts, at least work on a way to make it fair and prevent the victim from getting blamed for the rape while preventing the people who accuse someone of rape when none has occured. It's a complex issue either way.

I herebye crown DemonLordEnigma..

**His Excellency, Master of Smoke and Mirrors **


What exactly is this thread supposed to be discussing again? Our nation feels that this is starting to stray a bit into the argument for argument's sake category. I'm seeing a pattern here.

President ethAnTkE, The Democratic Republic of ethAnTkE

I for one would like to congratulate DLE on his new title. I hope he proves a suitable choice in the coming year, otherwise the selection committee will be forced to remove him and pick someone else :}

And - to get somewhat back on topic - does the edit/deletions in the thread mean this proposal has been abandoned?

I herebye crown DemonLordEnigma..

**His Excellency, Master of Smoke and Mirrors **


What exactly is this thread supposed to be discussing again? Our nation feels that this is starting to stray a bit into the argument for argument's sake category. I'm seeing a pattern here.

President ethAnTkE, The Democratic Republic of ethAnTkE

If you bothered to read my post, you would notice I came back to the original issue at the end. Try reading what I have said instead of posting something in futile hopes it will discredit an arguement you don't want to hear that you cannot refute.

Surely our nation could refute several items that have been brought up in your "argument," especially your concepts of rights and privileges. But many of these arguments are not necessarily usefull to a productive discussion about additional definition of "crimes against humanity." The dictionary reference was particularly helpful though.

President ethAnTkE of The Democratic Republic of ethAnTkE (not the US)

If you can refute them, pretty much all of which are on topic, then do so. Don't post that you can unless you are going to.

As you are certainly aware we have already refuted your description of rights and priveleges in other forums where it was probably more appropriate. Our nation believes that a line by line refutation of your belief is not related to additional definitions to "crimes against humanity", since the basis for this discussion is preestablished. Again more smoke and mirrors.

President ethAnTkE

As you are certainly aware we have already refuted your description of rights and priveleges in other forums where it was probably more appropriate. Our nation believes that a line by line refutation of your belief is not related to additional definitions to "crimes against humanity", since the basis for this discussion is preestablished. Again more smoke and mirrors.

President ethAnTkE

Where is your evidence for this claim? Either provide evidence or stop wasting bandwidth.

Nice revision on the end there..

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7999646&postcount=2

As you would say my friend... "Already Covered"


President ethAntKE of The Democratic Republic of ethAnTkE

Nice revision on the end there..

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7999646&postcount=2

As you would say my friend... "Already Covered"


President ethAntKE of The Democratic Republic of ethAnTkE

All you proved is I have a style of arguing. And, considering it is entirely on topic (unlike this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8004737&postcount=19) post), you really don't have a point. And I noticed you conveniently ignored the posts that came after it as well.

You have failed to provide evidence that I am attempting revisionism or "smoke and mirrors," or even your claim of having refuted an arguement of mine. Stop wasting bandwidth and just admit you don't have it.

That's just about enough.

Just because a new member can't be bothered to read a very user-friendly thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=357572), doesn't mean that the regulars here need to do the leg work. As the cliche goes, "A lack of preparation on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

Now, it would have been nice if the regulars would supply the link to Komokom's thread, but it's hardly necessary. For the record, I regularly use it when cleaning out Proposals, as it's hard to remember everything about every Resolution. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people posting Proposals to give it a quick once-over.

Since this thread has gone way off topic and is little more than sniping. Post locked.