NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello. I joined the UN yesterday and I don't see any way to approve of the proposals. I am able to vote, though. Could someone please help me?

Only delegates can approve proposals.

right, and if you want to be regional delegate, you need to had much endoresment than everybody else in your region.

ok so another noob question, I've read the U.N. FAQ numerous times to try and find where Vastiva and DemonLordEnigma say that the goal of the U.N. is to micromange or stuff, they kept saying it in the "support hemp production" thread and I kept trying to find where they were talking about.

despite you, I didn't take them too serious.
but the main idea of micromanagement is to make proposals that control on every little thing in the nation or too much specified proposals. I don't know where you see them said that, but it usually taken as bad thing.

The FAQ says this:

The UN is your chance to mold the rest of the world to your vision

That means (IMO) that you can't really say that something (e.g. micromanagement of hemp farming policies) isn't an issue that the UN has any business addressing. The UN is entitled to intrude and meddle with your nation at any level its members deem fit.

So it isn't quite true that the purpose of the UN is to micromanage, it's that the purpose of the UN is whatever members choose to make it, be it micromanagement of hemp policies or managing international relations.

The UN should be renamed 'The Socialist Majority' right now. Most nations leaning to the right have a tough time getting proposals thru.

Hmmm... Are you sure about that? Because I don't really think Mikitivity's had any serious problems getting things through, while it took me about 15 times to try and get something that entered common law about 500 years ago through. Guess which of us is 'left'.

ok Cool, thanks for helping me

That means (IMO) that you can't really say that something (e.g. micromanagement of hemp farming policies) isn't an issue that the UN has any business addressing. The UN is entitled to intrude and meddle with your nation at any level its members deem fit.

So it isn't quite true that the purpose of the UN is to micromanage, it's that the purpose of the UN is whatever members choose to make it, be it micromanagement of hemp policies or managing international relations.

1. Basically, you are making an appeal to authority and suggesting that, "We shouldn't draw our own lines in regard to appropriate areas of UN action, because Max never said anything about such a line." Max wrote what Max wrote, but he also left much of the power to determine what the UN should and should not do up to the membership. So when one of the membership decides to arbritrarily draw a line where they feel like it, it makes no sense to come down on them and point out what Max put in the FAQ, considering that Max left it up to the membership to decide (mostly) what will become international law.

2. You make a serious leap from the UN having the power to do something, to the UN being entitled to do that thing. I have the power to steal the purse of the young woman sitting next to me, but that certainly does not mean that I am entitled to do so.

You mis-interpreted me. I don't think I expressed myself adequately.

My point was that the way Max built the game means that the UN doesn't have any set purpose, its purpose is whatever its members make it. When I said "entitled", I didn't mean that it's necessarily the right thing for the UN to do, I meant that the game mechanics means there's no rule to stop it. When I said "you can't really say that something .... isn't an issue that the UN has any business addressing" I don't mean that it's ok for the UN to do x and y, I meant that it's technically incorrect to say that the UN's purpose is not to deal with x and y.


Sorry, that's probably still poorly expressed. Do you see what I mean?

2. You make a serious leap from the UN having the power to do something, to the UN being entitled to do that thing. I have the power to steal the purse of the young woman sitting next to me, but that certainly does not mean that I am entitled to do so.

:)

Well said my friend. Well said.

ok so another noob question, I've read the U.N. FAQ numerous times to try and find where Vastiva and DemonLordEnigma say that the goal of the U.N. is to micromange or stuff, they kept saying it in the "support hemp production" thread and I kept trying to find where they were talking about.

Some nations, hold the opinion that the UN is a central authority and that it SHOULD be used to force nations to bend to your will. Micromanagement is a good analogy and these nations tend to believe that they know what is better for you.

Other nations, take the other view: namely that the UN should only be involved in international issues. For domestic issues, they'll argue that a central authority can't make adaptive solutions for local problems. However, even these nations will agree that there are times when the wisdom of the many out weighs the wisdom of the few. (I actually count myself in this group, and I even consider my nation a liberal government!) :)



FYI: the real UN does a bit of both. The real UN rarely micromanages, because just like in NS, when the UN over steps its bounds, real world nations can leave or with-hold funds. But there are times when it has at least presented and promoted lofty goals: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a classic example. At present it will be interesting to see how the United States reacts to the growing conflict of interests between the US and Kofi Annan and the Iraq Food for Oil scandal. But on balance and realistically the UN tends to actually behave more towards the second model. For example, it was unable to stop the US from invading Iraq. Even in NationStates the UN can't stop two nations from going to war ... basically in the game it can only change your stats. You can even pick daily issues that contradict UN resolutions! :)

On the subject of Max's wishes, I've read that he and others are often interested just to see how people interpet rules and where they will take things. I honestly don't believe that he had a grand design, but just wanted to get the ball rolling and then watch the fireworks.

With that in mind, I'd say you have room to explore both options. There always will be some players who will want to micromanage others and there will always be some players who disagree with the level of micromanagement. In my opinion we need to explore both options ... keep everybody a bit happy, but also keep everybody a bit unhappy too.

My government is a strong supporter of the UN, but I'd honestly like to see more nations from both camps get down and actually propose actual text changes to draft proposals. I'd like to see less rhetoric and talk about the UN FAQ, and actual development of ideas.

You mis-interpreted me. I don't think I expressed myself adequately.

My point was that the way Max built the game means that the UN doesn't have any set purpose, its purpose is whatever its members make it. When I said "entitled", I didn't mean that it's necessarily the right thing for the UN to do, I meant that the game mechanics means there's no rule to stop it. When I said "you can't really say that something .... isn't an issue that the UN has any business addressing" I don't mean that it's ok for the UN to do x and y, I meant that it's technically incorrect to say that the UN's purpose is not to deal with x and y.


Sorry, that's probably still poorly expressed. Do you see what I mean?

Like 'I don't think the UN should be meddling in this' is correct, but 'This is not what The UN is for' is incorrect?

That's the idea we work on anyway...

Lady Desdemona of Merwell,
Senior UN representative,
The Black New World,
Delegate to The Order of The Valiant States

Like 'I don't think the UN should be meddling in this' is correct, but 'This is not what The UN is for' is incorrect?

That's exactly it. Thank you.

"The Black New World" and "_Myopia_": A better way to say it would be this:

Can the UN meddle in these matters? Yes, this is set in NationStates rules.

Should the UN meddle in these matters? This is decided by vote of the UN member nations.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder and Delegate of The Realm of Ambrosia