NationStates Jolt Archive

Dear Delegates,
I just made a proposal yesterday as an attempt to save the last bits of nature. It's on page 12 right now. The description follows:

Stop rain forest destruction
A resolution to increase the quality of the world's environment, at the expense of industry.


Category: Environmental
Industry Affected: All Businesses
Proposed by: XelNaga Raiders

Description: In order to live some more days, the whole mankind has to protect the last bits of nature and environment it still has. This last small sector of environment is absolutely necessary for us to stay alive, and even more necessary to provide a world for our children that is worth living.
The regions surrounding the rain forest are some of the poorest on our earth. To have enough money to nourish their children, the people living in this regions often have to sell their land to big companies, which destroy the rain forest and use the land to cultivate coffee, tobacco, etc, because the land is quite fertile.

The poor people won't stop selling their land, because they don’t know how important the rain forest is and because they are afraid of starving, so we have to stop this by ourselves.
The resolution would have the following points:

§1 The poor people living in rain forest territory have to be supported by their governments/countries. This can be done in several ways, such as tax reduction or supporting them with money or food.

§2 The affected people have to be educated about the land they live on and how important it is to keep it intact, so they won’t just sell it to big companies not knowing what they do anymore. Because the nations around the rain forest are not exactly the richest ones, this educating campaign will be financed with the funds of §3.

§3 Because pollution and the rain forest are concerning the whole world and the poor countries surrounding the rain forest can’t take all the efforts on their own, countries with no rain forest regions will have to pay a fixed amount of money depending on the nations’s wealth and population to a global operating commission that distributes this money to the countries named in §1 and observes all actions to make sure that the money is used for what it should be and prevent misusage.

§4 A global law should be passed that makes it harder for global corporations to buy and destroy rain forest territories . The rain forest should become inviolable.

This resolution is really important for our lives, and even more for the lives of our kids. In the moment you read this, the global corporations are destroying even more rain forest territories. Once the rain forest is gone, it can never be re-established. We have to do something before it is too late.


I would be glad if you could approve this proposal and help to protect our earth.

What rainforest?

Lady Desdemona of Merwell,
Senior UN representative,
The Black New World,
Delegate to The Order of The Valiant States

The forest that provides us all with O2 and keeps us alive. Call it what you want

Considering a lot of nations don't live on earth why should they care?

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

oh, that's just great.

1. the industrialized countries all clearcut their temperate rainforests, so now you want to penalize the developing nations by making it illegal for them to exploit their own resources. Yeah, that seems fair. Hey, maybe we could just put the poor people in zoos so rich people from the industrialized nations could throw peanuts at them!

b) tropical rainforests are full of terrible things that kill people. All the scariest and most lethal diseases come from the tropical rainforests too.

Tropical rainforests should be wiped out!

We already have 3 resolutions offering various protections for forests:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7030085&postcount=49
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7029723&postcount=38
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7029633&postcount=24

If you're going to do another, at least try and fit it around these.

There are also 2 major problems with this. As TBlack has pointed out, not all our nations are on Earth, so it doesn't necessarily concern them. Second, your proposal states "The rain forest should become inviolable." Even _Myopia_'s government, committed as it is to environmentalist policies, sees this as a bad idea. First, nations need to be allowed at least some leeway to sustainably harvest the natural resources they may find themselves blessed with - you shouldn't totally block this. Second, with their staggering biodiversity, rainforests contain many undiscovered species. It has to be possible for scientists to remove specimens from their rainforest habitats for study - many rainforest plants can yield medicines, and there may be many more useful treatments to be discovered, perhaps for major diseases such as various cancers. I suggest you encourage sustainable use of rainforests, and be sure to allow scientific research.

EDIT: Also, your proposed text sounds in places very patronising towards rainforest natives. _Myopia_'s territory includes significant swathes of tropical rainforest, and there are quite a few citizens who choose to live a tribal, simple life within the forest. Most have deep respect for the environment in which they live and they don't need to be lectured on it.

According to the last bit of scientific information I've seen on the subject (which is more recent than the idea the rainforests provide oxygen), we could possibly slash-and-burn the entirety of them and not worry about oxygen.

I'm not on Earth and I have enough rainforests to cover half of the land on the planet. You want a few? I have to clearcut them in order to use land that happens to belong to me.

Description: In order to live some more days, the whole mankind has to protect the last bits of nature and environment it still has. This last small sector of environment is absolutely necessary for us to stay alive, and even more necessary to provide a world for our children that is worth living.

No evidence pointing to it being required. Plenty of medicine opportunities, but oxygen is an iffy. Terran has oxygen in amazing amounts naturally and it doesn't have plantlife native to it at all.

The regions surrounding the rain forest are some of the poorest on our earth. To have enough money to nourish their children, the people living in this regions often have to sell their land to big companies, which destroy the rain forest and use the land to cultivate coffee, tobacco, etc, because the land is quite fertile.

Not in DLE. In DLE, the regions surrounding the rainforests are either used by the well-off or not at all.

The poor people won't stop selling their land, because they don’t know how important the rain forest is and because they are afraid of starving, so we have to stop this by ourselves.

Again, not in DLE.

The resolution would have the following points:

§1 The poor people living in rain forest territory have to be supported by their governments/countries. This can be done in several ways, such as tax reduction or supporting them with money or food.

The poor people in my nation can't afford to get to the rainforests, so that obviously doesn't apply.

§2 The affected people have to be educated about the land they live on and how important it is to keep it intact, so they won’t just sell it to big companies not knowing what they do anymore. Because the nations around the rain forest are not exactly the richest ones, this educating campaign will be financed with the funds of §3.

Economic Rating of DLE, a nation that would be covered by this: Frightening
Economic Rating of XelNaga Raiders: Weak

Considering the land is owned by Enigma, the Dictator of DLE, it is up to him who the land is sold to. Not a bunch of people who don't even live near it. And trying to educate my people on what involves Earth is pointless, as they happen not to be on Earth. And they know fully well how concerned about the environment their government is and are willing to accept it.

§3 Because pollution and the rain forest are concerning the whole world and the poor countries surrounding the rain forest can’t take all the efforts on their own, countries with no rain forest regions will have to pay a fixed amount of money depending on the nations’s wealth and population to a global operating commission that distributes this money to the countries named in §1 and observes all actions to make sure that the money is used for what it should be and prevent misusage.

I'm not paying for screwups made by other nations. Their property, their problem. I can always move the few humans now under my control off Earth. Then, though, I may have to grant them citizenship...

Normally I would go along with something protecting the environment, but having the audacity to call all nations near rainforests poor and require they get education kinda turned me against it.

§4 A global law should be passed that makes it harder for global corporations to buy and destroy rain forest territories . The rain forest should become inviolable.

Which does not allow for scientific study or nations such as mine that have them in overabundance to cut them as needed. No support is even possible with this last one.

This resolution is really important for our lives, and even more for the lives of our kids. In the moment you read this, the global corporations are destroying even more rain forest territories. Once the rain forest is gone, it can never be re-established. We have to do something before it is too late.

Actually, it can be restored. Want a few of my rainforests?

I would be glad if you could approve this proposal and help to protect our earth.

If it just affected Earth, I would support. But it doesn't.

when I read your posts, especially the "DLE" one, it makes me smile in a way. It's easy to say we aren't on earth, we don't need forests then. It's easy to say your people knows exactly what to do. And it's easy to say I have enough rainforests so I can "give" you some. Easy, isn't it?
A bit too easy in my eyes. Just three words: Oh my god.

So, are you human-like beings? You aren't kind of these bacteria that breathe with the help of sulfur I think. Then I guess you need things to breathe as well. And you say your economy is strong? So you will have pollution(easy to say: my indusrty doesn't pollute the environment at all...). What you did get totally wrong, is, that the fact is not about earth. It's a generous problem. And destroying the forests is not the only option governments have to make money.

Sorry, it was my first proposal at all. I didn't even KNOW that only a small part of people lives on earth. Besides it doesn't matter, because people have to breathe everywhere. Afaik, humans need plants for their circle of life, they can't synthesize their oxygen. Although, I guess, your great country can do this.

oh, that's just great.

1. the industrialized countries all clearcut their temperate rainforests, so now you want to penalize the developing nations by making it illegal for them to exploit their own resources. Yeah, that seems fair. Hey, maybe we could just put the poor people in zoos so rich people from the industrialized nations could throw peanuts at them!

b) tropical rainforests are full of terrible things that kill people. All the scariest and most lethal diseases come from the tropical rainforests too.

Tropical rainforests should be wiped out!
looked too much southpark? The rainforest is not an enemy that wants to invade your country...
and saving nature has nothing to do with discriminating people, remmeber, there were alternative ways of making money

I'm not on Earth and I have enough rainforests to cover half of the land on the planet. You want a few? I have to clearcut them in order to use land that happens to belong to me.
you "have"? are they in little glasses?


No evidence pointing to it being required. Plenty of medicine opportunities, but oxygen is an iffy. Terran has oxygen in amazing amounts naturally and it doesn't have plantlife native to it at all.
in amazing amounts does not mean it doesn't react chemically when humans breath it in. So it will decrease and you need something that changes it back into oxygen. Breathing changes oxygen into other gases.


Not in DLE. In DLE, the regions surrounding the rainforests are either used by the well-off or not at all.
how will you control that? Just evacuate all poor people and make a law that makes it illegal for them to live near rainforests? And if it's used by the well-off, that means it is destroyed in some ways.



The poor people in my nation can't afford to get to the rainforests, so that obviously doesn't apply.




Considering the land is owned by Enigma, the Dictator of DLE, it is up to him who the land is sold to. Not a bunch of people who don't even live near it. And trying to educate my people on what involves Earth is pointless, as they happen not to be on Earth. And they know fully well how concerned about the environment their government is and are willing to accept it.

So you really make it illegal for them to live there...


Normally I would go along with something protecting the environment, but having the audacity to call all nations near rainforests poor and require they get education kinda turned me against it.

this was not meant in a discriminating way, it was just "the poor nations living near the rain forests", not "all nations who live near the rain forests are poor". Read more carefully




Actually, it can be restored. Want a few of my rainforests?

any idea of how long it takes a tree to grow as big as the 50 year old ones? Maybe 50 years?


If it just affected Earth, I would support. But it doesn't.
So it doesn't affect just earth you say? What then? Every planet? Then it concerns you, too...

There are also 2 major problems with this. As TBlack has pointed out, not all our nations are on Earth, so it doesn't necessarily concern them. Second, your proposal states "The rain forest should become inviolable." Even _Myopia_'s government, committed as it is to environmentalist policies, sees this as a bad idea. First, nations need to be allowed at least some leeway to sustainably harvest the natural resources they may find themselves blessed with - you shouldn't totally block this. Second, with their staggering biodiversity, rainforests contain many undiscovered species. It has to be possible for scientists to remove specimens from their rainforest habitats for study - many rainforest plants can yield medicines, and there may be many more useful treatments to be discovered, perhaps for major diseases such as various cancers. I suggest you encourage sustainable use of rainforests, and be sure to allow scientific research.

EDIT: Also, your proposed text sounds in places very patronising towards rainforest natives. _Myopia_'s territory includes significant swathes of tropical rainforest, and there are quite a few citizens who choose to live a tribal, simple life within the forest. Most have deep respect for the environment in which they live and they don't need to be lectured on it.
ok sorry, what I tried to express was that it should be a law that prevents destruction. I agree with you in the first paragraph.

But you have to realize that these nativces often have no real option, because the rain forest won't nourish them anymore. Not the natives living deep in it, I am talking about the farmers around, who have to sell their products on markets.

My nation is more in the direction of civil rights and political freedoms than economy, so anyways. But I think I won't come back into the forums, it's not so nice here.

you "have"? are they in little glasses?

They are scattered across two DLE colony worlds, and as such are on DLE property and part of DLE possessions.

in amazing amounts does not mean it doesn't react chemically when humans breath it in. So it will decrease and you need something that changes it back into oxygen. Breathing changes oxygen into other gases.

Bacteria, which were imported. Last time I saw a scientific article dealing with it, that's the second largest source of oxygen in Earth's history and the largest source of oxygen still producing in massive quanities.

how will you control that? Just evacuate all poor people and make a law that makes it illegal for them to live near rainforests? And if it's used by the well-off, that means it is destroyed in some ways.

How doo I control where the poor live? Quick logic question: You're poor and in New York City. Are you going to run to Missouri to live in a forest there, or are you going to stay where you are?

The well-off choose the location because they enjoy the plantlife. Plantlife on Terran is only in one area, and that area is also where all of the people live.

So you really make it illegal for them to live there...

If they have the money to pay for it, they can have the property and police protection to keep intruders out. They also have to understand that there are regulations for how it can be used at this point. If they slip into a portion owned by the government, the government's not exactly going to make an effort to get them out unless the area they are in is purchased or set for something else. The problem is how do you cross the distance from New York City to Southern Missouri when you don't own a vehicle and that area is almost entirely undeveloped terrain?

this was not meant in a discriminating way, it was just "the poor nations living near the rain forests", not "all nations who live near the rain forests are poor". Read more carefully

That was more of IC indignation. ICly, DLE doesn't respond well to that, as the wording allows for either interpretation. Pride thing.

any idea of how long it takes a tree to grow as big as the 50 year old ones? Maybe 50 years?

Depends on how big they are when they are delivered.

So it doesn't affect just earth you say? What then? Every planet? Then it concerns you, too...

How does it concern me? Most nations not on Earth will alter a planet to suit their needs, even if it does mean taking a planet with rainforests and clearcutting them. If I damage the environments of my property, it's not exactly going to have effects on Earth. And for all you know, a planet I choose to cut down all of the rainforests on may be due to them not being necessary to the environment of that planet and a source of a disease I can only stop from eliminating my people by destroying the source of.

My nation is more in the direction of civil rights and political freedoms than economy, so anyways. But I think I won't come back into the forums, it's not so nice here.

That's most this forum. General is a lot less nice, but I don't count it as a real forum. Try II or the NS forum.

looked too much southpark? The rainforest is not an enemy that wants to invade your country...
and saving nature has nothing to do with discriminating people, remmeber, there were alternative ways of making money
Glad to see the south park reference didn't go unnoticed.

I think it wou;d be fabulus to save the rainforest!!! :headbang:

We must save our environment with all mens possible and do it now for it will be too late after a few years. Make it standing law that much of the environment will be under the protection of the U.N. and indevidual governments.
I do support this.

Glad to see the south park reference didn't go unnoticed.
yeah, I loved the part of southpark when they claimed the rain forest to be a dangerous killing machine :D


ehm DLE sorry, I have to admit that I am pretty "noobish" to these forums, and I didn't consider that it is that easy to move your nation to a fitting planet. I thought of all the regions existing on one big planet(which I falsely described as "earth"). So this was maybe my fault.
But I still consider saving nature as a very important thing, and it doesn't make much difference if it concerns nature on earth, or omega 546, or XII3, or what planet ever ;)

We must save our environment with all mens possible and do it now for it will be too late after a few years. Make it standing law that much of the environment will be under the protection of the U.N. and indevidual governments.
I do support this.
thx, I have the feeling to be understood :)

and hey, I went back here :D

ehm DLE sorry, I have to admit that I am pretty "noobish" to these forums, and I didn't consider that it is that easy to move your nation to a fitting planet. I thought of all the regions existing on one big planet(which I falsely described as "earth"). So this was maybe my fault.

Not a n00bish thing. I've seen people far, far, far more experienced than you post proposals on here that for FT nations to do things they shouldn't have to. Also, Earth is the accurate name for the planet the majority of NS nations are on.

But I still consider saving nature as a very important thing, and it doesn't make much difference if it concerns nature on earth, or omega 546, or XII3, or what planet ever ;)

I agree. Remove calling it "inviolable" and add in a clause stating rainforests may be cleared only when a scientific study has determined that clearing that part will have no detrimental effects upon the environment. That'll allow you to effectively stop it on Earth while giving those of us off a way to justify to the UN about why we are clearing certain sections of rainforest. Then, I'll support it.

It's very unlikely in most cases that clearing will have no detrimental effect. What we need to aim for is sustainable utilisation of natural resources.

It's very unlikely in most cases that clearing will have no detrimental effect. What we need to aim for is sustainable utilisation of natural resources.

On Earth, that is quite true. On Terrasot, it may not be. In the end, it allows you to research in the rainforest with that change without cutting it down. You have any ideas on how to go about your suggestion, though? I can't come up with one at the moment.

"STRONGLY URGES that all potentially ecologically harmful utilisations of tropical rainforest resources are assessed by a team of expert and impartial scientists to ensure that they are ecologically sustainable before proceeding"

I like that.

:D

Probably the first and last time my GCSE in Geography will ever come in handy.

ok, since it was my first proposal there probably were some mistakes in how to express things clearly. Inviolable shouldn't mean nobody is allowed to enter forests or pick a flower, but it's hard to draw a clear line between research and giving way to industrial interests.

stating rainforests may be cleared only when a scientific study has determined that clearing that part will have no detrimental effects upon the environmentIt's very unlikely in most cases that clearing will have no detrimental effect. What we need to aim for is sustainable utilisation of natural resources
these are good points, I think of making an improved proposal soon. But who decides what's sustainable, and to what extend can nature simply be cleared without any serious effects?
I'll think about that.

Like I said, how about saying

"STRONGLY URGES that all potentially ecologically harmful utilisations of tropical rainforest resources are assessed by a team of expert and impartial scientists to ensure that they are ecologically sustainable before proceeding"

that may be a solution

any other problems? Otherwise I'll go through it again and post it here tomorrow or so.

What about that:

In order to live some more days, the whole mankind has to protect the last bits of nature and environment it still has. This last small sector of environment is absolutely necessary for us to stay alive, and even more necessary to provide a world for our children that is worth living.
The rainforest is the most important resort of nature on our planet, this resolution focuses on preventing the rainforest of misusage.

The resolution contains the following points:

§1 A global commision for rainforest concerns (G.C.R.C.), consisting of international specialists, will be founded, which will manage all actions concerning the rainforest to make sure the money of §3 is used for what it should be and prevent misusage.
The team of expert and impartial scientists (§2) will be financed by this commission, too.

§2 All potentially ecologically harmful utilisations of tropical rainforest resources are assessed by a team of expert and impartial scientists (rainforest expert team (R.E.T.)) to ensure that they are ecologically sustainable before proceeding.

§3 Because pollution and the rainforest are concerning the whole world and it mustn’t become a disadvantage to have rainforest territories in your country, every nation on the planet will have to pay a fixed amount of money, depending on the country’s population and state of industry, to the G.C.R.C. This money will be used to finance all actions of the G.C.R.C. and the R.E.T.

This resolution is really important for our lives, and even more for the lives of our kids. In the moment you read this, the global corporations are destroying even more rain forest territories. Once the rain forest is gone, it can hardly be re-established. We have to do something before it is too late.


(I think it's missing some facts about what the G.C.R.C. does at all, doesn't it?)