NationStates Jolt Archive

So I had this idea about a preservation of life proposal. It doesn't deal with national laws (I think Aligned Planets has a proposal about that already, though he might have dropped it) but about people who are caught up in international territory.

For example someone who is flying a spaceship has to down it in a nation that is not his own. He should have the right to expect not to be treated as a prisoner, but as a guest of the nation. (See notes later). And that people from his own nation should be permitted to come and get him without any interference.

Same with people at sea, though this might already be covered by The Laws of The Sea (I would have to read up on it).

And also people who are sky diving. Depending on from what height you are jumping and which way the wind is blowing it is not beyond reason that you might end up in the wrong country.

The only problem with this is if you are at war with the nation in which you crash land, or have to abandon ship.

For that I would say if you are doing something military like (bombing them for example) then you should be held as a prisoner of war, if you are spying on them then (quite honestly) you should be treated as a criminal (I am not a big fan of spies, even during war time), but if you can show that you are not doing either of those - that it really was just an accident, you should be treated as a civilian and returned home.

So - comments? Suggestions? Questions? Flames? Presents? (One can hope!)

The main problem remains my automated defenses. To get past those, you have to be hostile. That, and the fact the region of space I am in is pretty much hostile to space-travelling races anyway.

Yeah - but if they get blown up in space around your planet, there is not a lot you can do.

I am only really talking about people who crash land in to a nation that is not their own, or if they have problems doing a normal landing and end up off course for some reason.

If worded with that in mind, then I will support it.

So - comments? Suggestions? Questions? Flames? Presents? (One can hope!)

*A package from Mikitivity arrives in the diplomatic bag with a note attached: "Enjoy!" The TilEnca Ambassador looks inside and sees a 1-liter bottle of Sudwerk's "Spice Tremens" beer.

I'd support it, but in all honesty I don't think it'd actually do anything. Nations that would already aid the crashed citizen and help his nation come pick him up will continue to do so, and Nations that currently wouldn't will simply claim he's a spy and detain him. (Which is probably what they'd do right now anyway.)

In my opinion if a citizen from another country 'crash lands' into my country they should and will be held as a spy and excecuted without trial. We will not make the mistake of releasing a potential spy go.

So I think there is more and more need for this proposal as every new post appears.

In my opinion if a citizen from another country 'crash lands' into my country they should and will be held as a spy and excecuted without trial. We will not make the mistake of releasing a potential spy go.

:rolleyes: Case in point.
But, like I said, you've still got my regions vote.

'So I think there is more and more need for this proposal as every new post appears'


:sniper:
So, wot, you're saying that foreign 'invaders' should be protected?

'So I think there is more and more need for this proposal as every new post appears'


:sniper:
So, wot, you're saying that foreign 'invaders' should be protected?

I am suggesting you look at it the other way round. If you crashed in another country, totally by accident, would you

a) want to be shot and executed as a spy when you have done nothing wrong
or
b) once you have shown you are really only there because of an accident, and you are not trying to do any harm to the nation and only want to go home, left to go free and return home

Cause even though you are just thinking of people crashing in your nation, sometimes people from your nation might crash in other nations and that nation might have a view as enlightened as yours and just shoot them. Which I think is a bad thing.

For the most part, I would still support it; assuming the personnel in question can at least be detained for a short (a day at most) period for interview and/or debrief, and a diplomatic channel opened to the personnel(s) home nation(s).

If another country captured and excecuted one of my citizens without good cause I would declare war against them and I would expect them to do the same.

Referring to your other question, no, I would not like to be executed for no reason buts thats the way things go sometimes. Another point, why would that person be flying over that particular country when they know it is hostile? Do Britain and America's passenger jets or fighter planes fly over China or Russia? No! Because they know that there is a good chance it will be shot down and the people on board, if not killed, will be taken prisoner.

If another country captured and excecuted one of my citizens without good cause I would declare war against them and I would expect them to do the same.

Referring to your other question, no, I would not like to be executed for no reason buts thats the way things go sometimes. Another point, why would that person be flying over that particular country when they know it is hostile? Do Britain and America's passenger jets or fighter planes fly over China or Russia? No! Because they know that there is a good chance it will be shot down and the people on board, if not killed, will be taken prisoner.

So if you are flying over TilEnca (which borders GeminiLand) and for some reason you end up off course and crash in to GeminiLand (which you were not flying over at all, but you ended up crashing in it due to huge mechanical problems) you would still accept GeminiLand could shoot you?

And what about space ships? When they are coming back from re-entry they can cover so many countries it is unbelievable, and if they have a need to land in an emergancy, it might not be possible for them to say "darn - we can't land here we have to fly for fifty more miles before we are safe".

(OOC - This mutual co-operation exists in real life as far as I am aware. Even during the cold war, Russian and American astronauts were protected by it, so that if they crash landed in the wrong country they would not be imprisoned, but returned home. It's where I got the idea from)

If everyone is honestly happy to have their citizens imprisoned/executed/tortured just because they fly off course, then I will adandon this idea. But it will convince me this is a sad, sad world we live in.

If another country captured and excecuted one of my citizens without good cause I would declare war against them and I would expect them to do the same.

Referring to your other question, no, I would not like to be executed for no reason buts thats the way things go sometimes. Another point, why would that person be flying over that particular country when they know it is hostile? Do Britain and America's passenger jets or fighter planes fly over China or Russia? No! Because they know that there is a good chance it will be shot down and the people on board, if not killed, will be taken prisoner.

OOC: In fact, an South Korean Passenger jet had been flying over the Soviet Union Far East in 1985, and it HAS BEEN SHOT DOWN! In fact, South Korean (which some might construe as an American puppet) Passenger Jets in more recent times DO regularly fly over Chinese, Mongolian and Russian Territory (I have flown in one myself on my way to Japan from Germany). Now imagine such a jet come down by accident - lets say in Russia, even worse, over the Ural mountains, which are considered by Russians as almost top secret... what about any (if any) survivors of such a crash?

TilEnca,
go ahead with that proposal.
And just in case it should also cover the particuliarity of persons stranded in a country with which their home nation is at war.
It should also include an obligation to give medical assistance to any stranded persons where necessary.
And yes, it also might include the right to detain the person in question for a limited time period, just to make sure the person in question had no hostile intent, to contact the home nation etc.
It should also be stated what can happen to an apparently "stranded" person if it turns out they HAD hostile intent (I suggest treat them either as POW according to the Wolfish convention if the respective nations ARE at war, or else treat them as criminal according to the type of hostile intend they have shown)

For example someone who is flying a spaceship has to down it in a nation that is not his own. He should have the right to expect not to be treated as a prisoner, but as a guest of the nation. (See notes later). And that people from his own nation should be permitted to come and get him without any interference.

I disagree that he should have a right to be treated as a guest of the nation; if said spaceship is floating over Tuesday Heights airspace, and can make no contact whatsoever with our ground control, in this day and age, we have to assume it is approaching under hostile intent.

Now, if said spaceship is from a nearby nation (which I would assume a nation would know being neighbors and all) or allies, but if you cannot identify where this spaceship is from, then, I see no right to treat it with anything but concern to the highest degree of military might.

This by no means makes it okay for our military to necessarily shoot it down or act in an otherwise hostile manner, but moreso to protect our country from the hostilities of another country.

Same with people at sea, though this might already be covered by The Laws of The Sea (I would have to read up on it).

To me, the Laws of the Sea resolution as I understand it, deals with the area surrounding a nation not the seas directly up to its shores.

Much like in the RL, and the international waters that surround a nation, airspace above a nation is defined as their airspace, that above the oceans is regarded as international airspace.

If preservation of life wanted to deal strictly with just international airspace as RL defines it, I'd jump on board, but to claim some sort of immunity for anyone who happens to mosey into national airspace.

And also people who are sky diving. Depending on from what height you are jumping and which way the wind is blowing it is not beyond reason that you might end up in the wrong country.

The chances of that happening can be pre-determined; if so, they can inform the other country of said descent. If not, then, any other number of factors could come into play... such as the number of airplanes in a given country's airspace at the moment, etc.

For that I would say if you are doing something military like (bombing them for example) then you should be held as a prisoner of war, if you are spying on them then (quite honestly) you should be treated as a criminal (I am not a big fan of spies, even during war time), but if you can show that you are not doing either of those - that it really was just an accident, you should be treated as a civilian and returned home.

To me, this part should be approached as a completely different proposal as it deals more with something like the Geneva Convention than necessarily defining the preservation of life within airspace.

I think, IMHO, that writing a proposal on proper airspace definitions and the preservation of life within them should be done first, then, a second proposal followed up with something based on the Geneva Convention if that is what this issue is dealing with primarily, which is how I see it being presented.

(OOC - COMPUTERS SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK)

Although this proposal was never meant to take acount of airspace (including coastal waters, orbit space and so forth) I guess it can't really be avoided.

The main problem people appear to have is national security - that nations reserve the right to shoot down unidentified craft because the crash might be intent on crashing in to something on purpose.

So what if the proposal can be framed so that it would permit the shooting down of unidentified ships (after various checks etc), but if the ship is broadcasting a distress signal (and create an international signal?) that it will be tracked, permitted to land and the person treated as a guest (or at least not as a criminal). And that the person would be free to go, or to be picked up. (If the ship starts acting in a suspicious manner then it can be shot down etc).

Further that if the ship is found crashed it has to be treated as a guest ship, rather than an attack.

In both cases the national authorities are permitted to take time to investigate, but all people detained in this time have to be treated as prisoners of war, rather than prisoners.

(Does anyone know where the Wolfish Convention stands on Spies who are caught? I can look it up, I just thought I would ask).

Finally there is one other thing - any ship that picks up a distress signal in international waters or space (maybe also air) is required to assist the ship in distress to the best of their ability, and if it can be shown they ignored it for no apparent reason (if they are sinking themselves then they can be excused for not helping for example) then they can be sued by the nation they ignored.

All of these clauses would be suspended in time of war, but only between the nations that are at war. (And the Wolfish Convention would still apply).

I realise there are problems with this - some nations would not want to do this cause they don't feel it is necessarily their business, and others because they are paranoid.

But there is the whole idea that if this applies to you, it applies to other nations that might be dealing with your people as well - it would protect everyone.

So - more comments?

Ok. I think I will abandon this, since there are more problems than I had considered.

Maybe one that defines me as supreme goddess of the universe.

Or a child prostitution one (trust me - that would be fun!!!! (the proposal, not the child prostitution part. Before you think I am someone who should be arrested))

Still - One resolution in three months is not that bad going :}