NationStates Jolt Archive

Esteemed members of the United Nations, The Milky Lake has brought a proposal to the organisation, we hope enough representatives will endorse it to being it to a general vote the proposition is entitled:

Seperation of Church and State

*sigh* I don't suppose you could have bothered to post a copy of the proposal here? I realize that such a performance would require a great deal of time and arduous effort, but could you pretty please do it?

Aye - a nice little proposal would go a long way!

Though I know nothing of your proposal, I am compelled to vote for it because of my indoctrination :D .

By your proposal's name I assume that you would want Church to have no effect on the workings of government, thereby excluding all Theocratic states, which, I believe is against the rules.

The Holy Empire of Anti Pharisaism is considering the idea. But then again, it is a Holy Empire. Depending on the definition of Holy being used of course.

I think it is safe to say quite a few nations are not going to like this one little bit.

As I have noticed that sometimes people tend to get the quoter mixed up with the quotee, I DID NOT WRITE THIS PROPOSAL. (Just so as we are clear)



Seperation of Church and State

A resolution to increase democratic freedoms.


Category: The Furtherment of Democracy


Strength: Strong


Proposed by: The milky lake

Description: Preamble: Religions have influenced the actions and running of states for thousands of years, from the sacrificing of any number of animals to humans to ensure some new success (or the continuation of old ones) for the people. This progressed to some great stains on humanity; the inquisition (and similar organisations on a smaller scale), the crusades, armed jihad and continued violence all around the world.

Article 1 - Any nation which uses a theocratic government must transfer rule to the lay people and democratise.

Article 2 - Ministers of any church will not be given automatic representation in the legislature, executive or judiciary.

Article 3 - Ministers of any church are unable to hold office in the legislature, executive, whilst a minister of the church.

Article 4 - Laws amended to remove any special protection offered to a religion; i.e., blasphemy laws.

Article 5 - Ecclesiastical law and courts are to be abolished.

Article 6 (1) - Preaching contrary to national, regional or UN law will become an offence of inciting to religious hate.

Article 6 (2) - Preaching of violent acts contrary national, regional or UN law will become an offence of inciting to religiously motivated violence.

Article 6 (3) - Carrying out a crime for religious reasons will become an offence of:

I, Religious hate if there is no violence,
II, Malicious religious hate if there is a violent element,
III, Grievous religious hate if there is a serious violent element or death is caused.

Article 7 - Churches will be unable to donate funds to political parties.

Article 8 - Churches have no place in politics, churches openly campaigning for laws aligned with their beliefs should lose their tax exemption (if they posses one).

Article 8 (1) - It should be open to the state and individual to bring civil and criminal proceedings against any church, which violates any of the above articles.

Approvals: 17 (The Derrak Quadrant, JayRoddia, JS Nijmegen, Traffic light, Kakuta, Izalium, WZ Forums, Helgee, Nerrethans, Confeddies, FoxTopia, United Necromancers, Moonriders, DougIsGodLand, Coolet, Gofrun, Shackleton)

Status: Lacking Support (requires 124 more approvals)

Voting Ends: Wed Dec 8 2004


I think my main problem with it is that it is punishing religion to an excessive amount with no equal punishment for the state.

(edit) I take that back - it is trying to anihilate religion without doing anything about the state.

My own 0.01 Tekanian Credits on this one (which equals about 2 cents).



Seperation of Church and State

A resolution to increase democratic freedoms.


Category: The Furtherment of Democracy


Strength: Strong


Proposed by: The milky lake

Description: Preamble: Religions have influenced the actions and running of states for thousands of years, from the sacrificing of any number of animals to humans to ensure some new success (or the continuation of old ones) for the people. This progressed to some great stains on humanity; the inquisition (and similar organisations on a smaller scale), the crusades, armed jihad and continued violence all around the world.

Article 1 - Any nation which uses a theocratic government must transfer rule to the lay people and democratise.

Game mechanics.


Article 2 - Ministers of any church will not be given automatic representation in the legislature, executive or judiciary.

Sounds fair.


Article 3 - Ministers of any church are unable to hold office in the legislature, executive, whilst a minister of the church.

Violation of the principle of Seperation, by removing the rights of certain classes based on religion.


Article 4 - Laws amended to remove any special protection offered to a religion; i.e., blasphemy laws.

Fair, but already handled by previous resolution (Universal Freedom of Choice)


Article 5 - Ecclesiastical law and courts are to be abolished.

Violation of the principle of seperation. If the government is going to rule on ecclesiastical government, it is rulling upon religion, and is therefore inviolation of the UFC and the principle of seperation.


Article 6 (1) - Preaching contrary to national, regional or UN law will become an offence of inciting to religious hate.

Again, violation of the UFC and the principle of seperation.


Article 6 (2) - Preaching of violent acts contrary national, regional or UN law will become an offence of inciting to religiously motivated violence.

Principles protected under other general laws.


Article 6 (3) - Carrying out a crime for religious reasons will become an offence of:

I, Religious hate if there is no violence,
II, Malicious religious hate if there is a violent element,
III, Grievous religious hate if there is a serious violent element or death is caused.

Define "violence" Seems to me, in context, if there is general a lack of "violence" it would be hard to proove "crime".


Article 7 - Churches will be unable to donate funds to political parties.

Violation of the principles of seperation, your rulling upon religion.


Article 8 - Churches have no place in politics, churches openly campaigning for laws aligned with their beliefs should lose their tax exemption (if they posses one).

Churches have a place in politics, as they are made up of a community of inidivudals possessing citizenhood... as such, this violated the principles of democracy.


Article 8 (1) - It should be open to the state and individual to bring civil and criminal proceedings against any church, which violates any of the above articles.


This legalizes crime, and illegalizes non-crime, and then goes on for prosecutional... This person is lucky he does not live in Tekania, or he would have been tried for treason, for the violation of the people's rights to freedom of religion.

This legalizes crime, and illegalizes non-crime...

Report this to Vastiva for placement in the People are Stupid category.

Now I'm an adverb and a list.

I'm immortal! RAWR! ;)

In the Capitalizt society that is the Holy Republic of Dhalique, the government consists of two major organizations, those being the Church and "Big Business". They have come to form a yin and yang relationship style government, drawing on the economic strength of business and the moral leadership of the church. To remove one entirely would cause our entire society and way of life to crumble.
Dhalique will NOT support this proposal.

I think it is safe to say quite a few nations are not going to like this one little bit.

As I have noticed that sometimes people tend to get the quoter mixed up with the quotee, I DID NOT WRITE THIS PROPOSAL. (Just so as we are clear)




I think my main problem with it is that it is punishing religion to an excessive amount with no equal punishment for the state.

(edit) I take that back - it is trying to anihilate religion without doing anything about the state.

The Republic of Aiur- firmly agrees.

This is separation of Church and state...

Only if you consider cutting open a pregnant woman, taking out her child, burning it, trampling it, and finally throwing it in the dumpster, a separation of woman and child.

Let it be noted that you cannot eliminate all theocracies because you think they are not democratic, and because they have caused violence in the past. Have you considered the fact that the people of Theocratic governments can be just as content as people in liberal democracies, if not more so?

Besides...this is a blatant attack on Christianity...I notice nothing but 'ministers cannot hold office' (discrimination) and the 'church' has no governmental rights. How about synagogues and temples? Are jews and muslims void?

As far as I know there are very few conflicts in the world involving Chrianity and violence...but there seem to be a surfeit of muslim-based conflicts...

And why do you distinguish between regular crimes and religion-motivated crimes? Are they going to be judged more harshly? If so, why?

Nations of the World:

While we agree wholeheartedly that the Church and the State should remain separate entities, this does not seem to be the aim of this proposal. Rather, the proposal seems to be written to serve the following ends:

(1) Destruction of the institution of Religion in all its forms.
(2) Silencing of those who speak out against the state.
(3) Disruption of the political process.
(4) Specific attacks on those who lead religious institutions.

This proposal claims to increase democratic freedoms. We suggest that it does precisely the opposite.

As this proposal is in blatent violation of inherent human rights, the Nation of South Arctica spits upon it and extends a collective middle finger at its supporters. In addition, we submit the following counterproposal, which states in brief that all hard copies of the Separation of Church and State proposal are to be divided into 3x3-inch sheets and stacked neatly within arm's reach of each of the UN Headquaters toilets, so that they may serve some practical purpose.

Sincerely,

Chad Miller
Ambassador to the World
South Arctica

This proposal stands in violation of UN Resolution #48, Rights and Duties of UN States, Article 1, which states:
Article 1
§ Every UN Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government.
Resolution #48 would have to be repealed (and all the other illegalities addressed) before Seperation of Church and State can be legally entered.

As Rights and Duties of UN States, Article 1 mirrors NationStates rules to the effect that the choice of national government type cannot be abridged, it's pointless to repeal it in any case.

By far and away my biggest issue with this proposal is this :

Article 6 (1) - Preaching contrary to national, regional or UN law will become an offence of inciting to religious hate.

This does not say what you are preaching - just that if it is contravention to any laws it is classed as religious hate.

So if one of the priests in my nation was to say "The Powers That Be tell us abortion is wrong" then he would be in violation of this proposal. Note that he is not suggesting the Abortion Rights resolution is overturned, nor is he preaching that we bomb all the abortion clinics. He is just stating what his beliefs are.

Whether he is right or wrong, he should be entitled to his beliefs, even if he is a priest of the church.

Or have I misunderstood that clause?

There is entirely too much to say about this proposal, so I will sum it up.
Utterly reprehensible.

Utterly reprehensible.
At this point, we're just amusing ourselves, Kingsland. This patently illegal proposal will be removed by mods when they do their next sweep.

In the meantime, we get to exercise our "I am so totally OMG outraged!!!" muscles, which at times is the only fun we have on the UN forums.

For all We could see, no-one has deigned to remove this utterly abominable proposal from the queue. The Holy Empire of Tarnak-talaan hereby declares Holy War on The milky lake and all supporters of the proposal who will not withdraw their approval.

Tarlaan-bartaik!

True Frisbeeteria. I just thought I would throw out my radically right-winged POV out there :)

For all We could see, no-one has deigned to remove this utterly abominable proposal from the queue. The Holy Empire of Tarnak-talaan hereby declares Holy War on The milky lake and all supporters of the proposal who will not withdraw their approval.

Tarlaan-bartaik!
LOL! That way when they defend themselves against you, they can be brought up on the charge of genocide. According to the newly passed resolution ;)

LOL! That way when they defend themselves against you, they can be brought up on the charge of genocide. According to the newly passed resolution ;)

If they succeeded in exterminating Us... But since the Holy Wrath of the Supreme Deity Talarka is on Our side, We very much doubt they would ;)

YESSSS!

It's kicked off the floor....

The Righteous Wrath of Our Supreme Deity Talarka hath gnashed this piece of rubbish to smitherins.

The Righteous Wrath of Our Supreme Deity Talarka hath gnashed this piece of rubbish to smitherins.
Well, apart from getting the name of the deity wrong, that is correct (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=379921).

Things like this make me want to consider submiting a proposal "The Unification of Church and State". Considering how democracies routinely invade neighbouring nations in the name of 'freedom', and that elected officials are nothing more than a figurehead of 'mob rule', and that religion has the backing of God(s) and is thus both 'divine' and 'unfalliable', all democracies shall be immedietly replaced by theocracies, and any attempt at 'representation of the people' strictly outlawed.
Just to switch things around a little.

Things like this make me want to consider submiting a proposal "The Unification of Church and State". Considering how democracies routinely invade neighbouring nations in the name of 'freedom', and that elected officials are nothing more than a figurehead of 'mob rule', and that religion has the backing of God(s) and is thus both 'divine' and 'unfalliable', all democracies shall be immedietly replaced by theocracies, and any attempt at 'representation of the people' strictly outlawed.
Just to switch things around a little.

Good, I'm a constitutional republic, and not a democracy.

My governement quite likes this proposal, but then Hirota is totally aethist, so we are not likely to be affected.

But I appreciate how theocracies might not appreciate this proposal.

Though I know nothing of your proposal, I am compelled to vote for it because of my indoctrination :D .

By your proposal's name I assume that you would want Church to have no effect on the workings of government, thereby excluding all Theocratic states, which, I believe is against the rules.

Only purely political motives should be allowed, I see no problem as this should NOT interfere with decent government, regardless of whether or not the nation in question has a religious basis. THERE is the dividing line. Such a proposal would have to be very carefully and specifically worded before I would consider it. I don't particularly care for so-called diplomats who spout religious prattle at me, either. It tends to annoy me. If you can word it in such a way that a country keeps itself political and ONLY political, fine.

I can't really see anyone short of a Federal District Attorney...or an Inspector General's office to be capable of that much manuvering within itself, but give it a shot.

Things like this make me want to consider submiting a proposal "The Unification of Church and State". Considering how democracies routinely invade neighbouring nations in the name of 'freedom', and that elected officials are nothing more than a figurehead of 'mob rule', and that religion has the backing of God(s) and is thus both 'divine' and 'unfalliable', all democracies shall be immedietly replaced by theocracies, and any attempt at 'representation of the people' strictly outlawed.
Just to switch things around a little.

Good. Very Good. Divinly Superb.

Well, apart from getting the name of the deity wrong, that is correct.

Wrong? What do you mean by WRONG???? I double- and triple-checked it, and still I came up with the same, which Always hath been, Always is, and Always will be -- non other than TALARKA

Serconea may be a republic, but at least 80% of its population self-describe as Catholics (with 8% Muslims, most around Harupdar).

Catholicism is an integral part of Serconea's government- the Presidential Inauguration Service is usually Catholic based and bishops do make political statements.

If the mods hadn't yanked this, I would have voted against.

The proposal was a lie, it had nothing to do with seperation principle.

In true principles of seperation, the general government is not allowed to rule upon religious order; and the church government cannot make determinations for general law.... It's a delineated subset of scope of authority and power; and a principle most people adhering to atheistic or theistic ideas are unable to grasp properly...

I'm glad it was pulled.... the author was stupid.