NationStates Jolt Archive

REVISED BILL now on page six. Go go go!

As of 11:34PM EST, the proposal is on page 25. Check it out ;)

If "murder" was altered to read "first degree murder" or "capital murder" I would agree with it.... unless you can provide a good argument why I should as it stands.

NOTING the absence of laws regarding capital punishment...
It's because neither side can make an adequately compelling case to get one approved ... except once, when BAN the Death Penalty (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=334553) tried and failed. Have a look. It's 536 posts of light reading.


I'll vote against any attempt to impose or deny the death penalty, and I doubt Frisbeeteria is alone in that stance. Given the gulf between the two sides,it's probably better left as a national choice.

I'll vote against any attempt to impose or deny the death penalty.
This proposal won't impose nor ban the death penalty. What is does do is set guidelines on when it can be used as a punishment. All nations are free to decide if they allow capital punishment or not, but those that allow it will have to adhere to these rules. No more executions of political protestors or for small crimes.

In regard to


1. DECLARES

A) The death penalty can only be imposed in crimes where the offence committed is murder or treason.

B) The death penalty can only be imposed if the intent to commit any aforementioned offence is proven.


Can I just ask you to clarify something?

Are you saying that someone can only be executed if they commit murder or treason, and it was deliberate?

Or

Are you saying that someone can be executed if they are shown to have intended to commit murder or treason, but didn't actually get round to it?

Cause right now it reads both ways, and I would like to know which is the right one :}

The conditions of part A and part B must both be fulfilled to impose the death penalty as punishment.

Part A stating that the person must have committed the offence, (actus reus)

Part B stating the the person must have had intent to commit the offence (mens rea)


The onus will be on the prosecutor to prove the mens rea of the accused.

The conditions of part A and part B must both be fulfilled to impose the death penalty as punishment.

Part A stating that the person must have committed the offence, (actus reus)

Part B stating the the person must have had intent to commit the offence (mens rea)


The onus will be on the prosecutor to prove the mens rea of the accused.

Then can I suggest you maybe reword it a little so that no one else can interpret it like I did?

B) Each nation has the right to legalize or outlaw capital punishment completely.

If they legalize it completely, won't that violate the first three clauses?

If they legalize it completely, won't that violate the first three clauses?

I think he meant legalize it, or outlaw it completely :}

If "murder" was altered to read "first degree murder" or "capital murder" I would agree with it.... unless you can provide a good argument why I should as it stands.

But aren't "first degree" and "capital" murder terms that are also only locally defined.

To play a "tech +1" card:
Perhaps on Cybertron "zero-th degree murder" is more henious than "first degree murder"?

But aren't "first degree" and "capital" murder terms that are also only locally defined.

To play a "tech +1" card:
Perhaps on Cybertron "zero-th degree murder" is more henious than "first degree murder"?

well, first-degree is what it is called some places, I'd preffer "Capital Murder", since that is a universal term to reffer to premeditated murder. Capital is used in the latin sense to refer to the "head" in the sense of the source of a person or thing.... the life of people, or the leader or a nation/state... which is why pre-meditated murder and treason are the only capital ("head") crimes; and the only ones by which this Republic places a Capital Punishment (a punishment upon the "head").... Which is why most early forms of Capital Punishment in history were by beheading, it was symbolic of the nature of the crime the person commited... since he removed the "head" (Capital) of another; his head was removed literally (De-capitation/BE-HEADING/Removal of the HEAD("Latin 'Capita'")....

OOC: I actually didn't know that capital punishment came from this! :)

OOC: I actually didn't know that capital punishment came from this! :)

(OOC - (grin) Isn't Latin cool?)

(OOC - (grin) Isn't Latin cool?)
[OOC] Wow. You really are a nerd, aren't you? [grin]

OOC: We are all nerds. There's nothing wrong with that...or I'm in trouble. :)

I have no problem with that.

I think he meant legalize it, or outlaw it completely :}
Correct.




I agree this document could use some rewording.

assuming I resubmitted this proposal, this is how it would reword it.



CATEGORY: Human Rights
TITLE: Limit Capital Punishment
STRENGTH: Significant


NOTING the absence of laws regarding capital punishment...

The UN HEREBY:


1. DEFINES

A) First-degree murder as a murder that is premeditated; committed with malice aforethought.

B) Treason as the violation of allegiance toward one's nation, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.



2. DECLARES

A) The death penalty can only be imposed in crimes where the offence committed is first-degree murder, or treason.

B) The death penalty can only be imposed if the intent to commit any aforementioned offence is proven.

C) Both Part A and Part B of Section 2 must be fulfilled to impose the death penalty on any convicted party.

D) Humans with severe mental disorders which impair the ability of the human to judge right from wrong cannot form the necessary intent to commit any of the aforementioned offences.



3. RECOGNIZES

Section 1 and Section 2 of this resolution applies to all nations that have legalized capital punishment. Any nations that have outlawed capital punishment are only affected by Section 1.




suggestions, improvements, comments?

B) Treason as the violation of allegiance toward one's nation, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.

Good luck with tha, man. I really wish you well, but this will never pass. 1) Treason holds a broad range of offenses, whether it be killing your own troops, acting as a spy, or simply posting anti-national propganda, thus it is subject to loopholes...nasty ones too. 2) Treason never goes unpunished by the real UN and the nations affiliated with it.

B) The death penalty can only be imposed if the intent to commit any aforementioned offence is proven.

Prove how? Are you talking about finding actual written out plans by the criminal to murder someone? Again, good luck. Keep in mind there are lawyers to protect these people, who can effectively make anything void.

C) Both Part A and Part B of Section 2 must be fulfilled to impose the death penalty on any convicted party.

Suppose a man rapes, sodomizes, tortures and strangles 30 women, but is fiercely patriotic, while a news reporter is strongly against a national cause and sides with the enemy. Who dies?

D) Humans with severe mental disorders which impair the ability of the human to judge right from wrong cannot form the necessary intent to commit any of the aforementioned offences.

Any criminal has "severe mental problems" to fulfill what they do in some cases. Alcoholism is a "severe mental disease," is it not? So you just nullified your own proposal.

Section 1 and Section 2 of this resolution applies to all nations that have legalized capital punishment. Any nations that have outlawed capital punishment are only affected by Section 1.

Exactly. These are standard laws, and do not affect nations that have outlawed the death penalty.

Though I support the death penalty to an extent, I cannot support this proposal...no offense. It is vague in a lot of areas, and can be mistreated and misinterpretted very easily.

"Good luck with tha, man. I really wish you well, but this will never pass. 1) Treason holds a broad range of offenses, whether it be killing your own troops, acting as a spy, or simply posting anti-national propganda, thus it is subject to loopholes...nasty ones too. 2) Treason never goes unpunished by the real UN and the nations affiliated with it."


definition updated: B) Treason as the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.

That should cover most if not all loopholes.
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"Prove how? Are you talking about finding actual written out plans by the criminal to murder someone? Again, good luck. Keep in mind there are lawyers to protect these people, who can effectively make anything void."

Prosecutors do this all the time. For all 1st degree murder trials, prosecutors have to prove the crime was committed by the accused, and that it was premeditated (NOT "on an impulse" or 'by accident', which would be 2nd-deg and manslaughter).
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"Suppose a man rapes, sodomizes, tortures and strangles 30 women, but is fiercely patriotic, while a news reporter is strongly against a national cause and sides with the enemy. Who dies?"

the updated definition of treason should cover this.
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"Any criminal has "severe mental problems" to fulfill what they do in some cases. Alcoholism is a "severe mental disease," is it not? So you just nullified your own proposal."

Section 2D taken completely out.
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"Exactly. These are standard laws, and do not affect nations that have outlawed the death penalty."

Section 1 will still apply to nations which have outlawed the death penalty, so they will still have a definition to go by (those crimes will still be punishable, but not by execution). Section 2 on the other hand, won't apply to them because since they have no death penalty, enforcing who can and can't be executed would be redundant.

Fenor:

Is not propaganda, used to undermine the national effort and demoralize the soliders of the given country a way to aid the enemy soldiers in combat? Nations under stress of battle, or nations that are corrupt can do anything they want to the person spreading dissenting ideas, especially if they have a law in place that allows them to do so BY LAW, or so it would be should the resolutions be passed.

Section D was not removed prior to my post, but by your own post I assume you mean that it was taken out afterwards...either way it is out and I appreciate you taking in my criticism to constructive use.

However, you stated that the resolution would give nations that had outlawed captial punishment a guideline. For what is obvious, and (excuse me) redundant. Most nations will give a murderer several life sentences, so for this reason, your resolution does nothing new. As for treason, I think that it is the right of each individual nation to decide what will be done to traders, without intervention by the UN's resolutions.

I do concede on the point of 'proven murder,' and apologize for being brash in my vitriol.

Once again, I support capital punishment, but this resolution needs rethinking. True treasoners should be executed, but your definition is vague and needs reworking.

Final Note: I personally feel that capital punishment is an issue to be decided by each individual country, and your resolution does nothing to enforce it or outlaw it, but rather sets up a guideline for what should be punished to the highest extent by that nation. This, I believe, is again decided by the country and its particular culture regarding criminals and traitors, with no intervening by the United Nations council.

Treason isn't merely "undermining" national effort... Hense propaganda isn't treason....

It's actively waging war in aid, or as the enemy. Assasination of a national leader is treason, spying for an enemy during wartime is treason, actively serving in an enemy army during wartime is treason. Forming a resistance group to fight the state government is treason..... Passing out leaflets against the government or its acts or policies in protest isn't treason (NSUN Res. #26- UBR Art. 2 and 3 handle that).