NationStates Jolt Archive

Summation: The main goal of this act is to prevent unnecessary contact with a Pre-FT civilization due of an increased risk of contaminating their native technology. Technological contamination may lead to the destruction of a Pre-FT civilization. The whole document is stated below.

The Pre-FT - FT Trade Act

Article 1: The prime characteristic of a FT civilization
a. Future Tech civilizations have incorporated the use of lightspeed technology or other general equivalents to travel through interstellar space.

Article 2: The prime characteristic of a Pre-FT civilization
a. Pre-Future Tech civilizations have not technologically progressed to a point where it uses lightspeed technology and other general equivalents to travel through interstellar space.

Article 3: The prime characteristic of a Late-MT/ Early-FT civilization
a. Late-MT/ Early-FT civilizations have almost acquired the knowledge of lightspeed technology or other general equivalents to travel through intersteller space.

Article 4: The protection of Pre-FT civilizations
a. FT civilizations may not in any way interfere with technological progress in a Pre-FT civilization.
b. FT civilizations cannot colonize planets with Pre-FT civilizations already thriving on it.
c. FT civilizations are prohited to conquer and enslave a planet that contains Pre-FT civilizations.

Article 5: Rights of Future Tech civilizations
a. FT civilizations may traverse through sol systems containing planets thriving with Pre-FT civilizations.
b. Contact with a Pre-FT civilization is strongly ill advised, but not illegal. Refer to Article 5c, 5d, 5e, and 5f for further exceptions.
c. In an event of an emergency, any ship belonging to an FT civilization may land on a planet designated as underdeveloped. Contact with locals may be achieved. AdvCs may not, however, interfere with technological progress as stated in Article 4a.
d. Contact with a Pre-FT civilization may be established if an FT civilization wishes to obtain cultural and historical knowledge of that particular Pre-FT civilization. However, they cannot interfere with technological progress as stated in Article 4a.
e. A FT civilization whose economy partly or wholly relies on trading with Pre-FT civilizations may do so. Thus, contact may be established. They may trade so as they do not interfere with technological progress as stated in Article 4a.
f. If Article 4c is broken by a FT civilization, any FT civilization in support of this act acquires the right to stop that FT civilization from achieving total control or enslavement. Thus, in this situation, contact with Pre-FT civilizations is inevitable. However, interference with a Pre-FT's technological progress is prohibited as stated in Article 4a.

Article 6: Exceptions to the Act
a. If a FT civilization already uses a set of laws similar to this document, then those laws can be executed and then be assimilated with or take the place of Article 4 and Article 5.

I refined this for RP use, but the RP never worked out. So, I've decided it shouldn't go to waste. I sent it to the UN then. Hopefully, it'll become a proposal. Please post constructive criticisms, thanks.

*glance*

Article 7 is illegal under UN rules - a Resolution may not be modified, it may only be repealed and replaced.

Article 5 - Violators will be sent to the UN.

Aha! That's why I'm here! I'm being punished for something!

So, if this passed, would it mean that DemonLordEnigma and I could never discuss anything again? I'm sure he's got lightspeed/superluminal travel by now, while Enn is far from that.

Again, this is a draft. I've just converted this from RP mode. I need u ppl to help me sort out some stuff, but so far you've been helpful, ...rude, but helpful.

So, if this passed, would it mean that DemonLordEnigma and I could never discuss anything again? I'm sure he's got lightspeed/superluminal travel by now, while Enn is far from that.

Didn't u read correctly? Before you start babbling on how pathetic my draft is, I'll tell you. Its legal. Check Article 4b and 4e...perhaps you've just skipped it.

Yeah, I took out Articles 5 and 7, they're not supposed to be on it. My bad, XD

*raises hands*

How do you define an Underdeveloped Civilization? How do you know what is jungle, and what is a sentient bush?

*raises hands*

How do you define an Underdeveloped Civilization? How do you know what is jungle, and what is a sentient bush?

Good question. Funny that you've added the sarcasm. Anyway, Prior to my current definitions, I've based the categories of underdeveloped and advanced civilizations on technological eras, ex: 18th, 19th, 20th century. But, it didn't work. So, I've collaborated with several people from the International Incidents forum and came up with the current definition. I know its vague, but you ppl are supposed to help me think of ways to improving this. Thats why I made it as a draft in the first place.

I'm still deciding whether or not to support this. Give me a couple days to decide and see if Tiamat Taveril's regional delegate is going to continue using her nation. However, I am concerned because it potentially makes once alliance I am in, ISEC, illegal. Much to the detriment of all members, including myself.

*raises hands*

How do you define an Underdeveloped Civilization? How do you know what is jungle, and what is a sentient bush?

Read Article 2. It pretty much covers this. Basically, underdeveloped nations are not zooming around Uranus looking for Klingons or other such acts involving space travel.

So, if this passed, would it mean that DemonLordEnigma and I could never discuss anything again? I'm sure he's got lightspeed/superluminal travel by now, while Enn is far from that.

I've got FTL Jump Engines that make Warp Drives look like maneuvering thrusters. I'm also developing Warp Drives for short-range usage using technology stolen from an old derelict (despite the danger of getting killed or worse, they have the best tech). If I were racing the Enterprise, the Enterprise would lose.

Reading it as is, it is legal for us to continue talking. I just can't land one of my shiny FTL-equipped ships in your driveway, hand you the keys, and tell you to take your birthday present for a spin around the solar system.

Thank you ^^;

Finally, someone understands! *Bows down*

DemonlordEnigma, if I may ask, why is it a detriment? Does it conflict with your alliances' current laws? I've tried to make the UCPA more flexible by adding Article 5 during the time spent in the "International Incidents" forum. So, I'm hoping it isn't a major problem. But, if it is, let me know and I'll see if I can make this even more flexible.

Hold on. Let me get a link to the official topic.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=367696&highlight=ISEC

Maybe it doesn't make the alliance illegal at all. I don't know yet.

In your alliance, you aid underdeveloped civilizations in thier first stages of space? It seems like a very viable situation...maybe this can be an amendment. I 'll consider in amending the UCPA.

We are only allowed to aid them using technology they already possess to develop more advanced technology. My nation has the easiest time blending in of all of the nonhumans, as my people look like overly-tall humans. Most people can't tell the difference.

Considering membership is voluntary, an amendment may not be needed.

I'm still deciding whether or not to support this. Give me a couple days to decide and see if Tiamat Taveril's regional delegate is going to continue using her nation. However, I am concerned because it potentially makes once alliance I am in, ISEC, illegal. Much to the detriment of all members, including myself.



Read Article 2. It pretty much covers this. Basically, underdeveloped nations are not zooming around Uranus looking for Klingons or other such acts involving space travel.



I've got FTL Jump Engines that make Warp Drives look like maneuvering thrusters. I'm also developing Warp Drives for short-range usage using technology stolen from an old derelict (despite the danger of getting killed or worse, they have the best tech). If I were racing the Enterprise, the Enterprise would lose.

Reading it as is, it is legal for us to continue talking. I just can't land one of my shiny FTL-equipped ships in your driveway, hand you the keys, and tell you to take your birthday present for a spin around the solar system.

The ol' Kraskinov, sorry to see her go...

Wait till my new toy is off the assembly line, the Kali.... and she will certainly live up to her reputation as the Hindi goddess of death.. almost 4 km long, which puts her past twice the length of my Orion-II's...

Onto the subject though... Hiro; good work... I am impressed... You must have spent some time reviewing GEDRA too.

The ol' Kraskinov, sorry to see her go...

Wait till my new toy is off the assembly line, the Kali.... and she will certainly live up to her reputation as the Hindi goddess of death.. almost 4 km long, which puts her past twice the length of my Orion-II's...

I love 4 km deathtraps. Seriously, I do. I really like it when I run between them and they use their big cannons of uberdestruction to blow themselves apart, all the while my ships are gracefully shooting past them and my crews are laughing so hard they can't even fire a single cannon.

Seriously, what is up with this "bigger is better" mentality? A ship doesn't have to be big enough to require its own city for a landing port to be the most dangerous thing in the sky. And those bigger ships tend to be a greater weakness than strength anyway, as you focus so many resources into a single ship that losing them en masse becomes an economic problem.

Onto the subject though... Hiro; good work... I am impressed... You must have spent some time reviewing GEDRA too.

He had help, including myself, in the first draft of that.

I love 4 km deathtraps. Seriously, I do. I really like it when I run between them and they use their big cannons of uberdestruction to blow themselves apart, all the while my ships are gracefully shooting past them and my crews are laughing so hard they can't even fire a single cannon.

Seriously, what is up with this "bigger is better" mentality? A ship doesn't have to be big enough to require its own city for a landing port to be the most dangerous thing in the sky. And those bigger ships tend to be a greater weakness than strength anyway, as you focus so many resources into a single ship that losing them en masse becomes an economic problem.


The SCV's (Sector Control Vessels) are getting bigger, yes... Impressive engineering... They are all flag ships. I do have smaller vessels (Battle-Cruisers, DSTEV's (Deep-Space Tactical Engagement Vessels) and Cloaked Intelligence Vessels) though they don't see as much action as the larger ones. (though I have pulled out my Marine run Spectre Class Intelligence vessels on a few occasions) [and sometimes they have been around when no one knew about it....]... You can think of the SCV's though as mobile Starbases... Their main roles are Planetary Assault/Defense, Colonization, Deep-Space Intra and Extra Galactic exploration, and Sector Command Operations... hense their size... In fact, two of them, one Orion, and one Orion-II are Engineering Corps vessels, who are completely slated to colonization (carrying about 1500 Marine Corps engineers + associated construction equipment). Add to that the fact that I'm never on the offensive; and it all works out.

Being somewhat of a Star Trek fan, I do like the idea of this. But having my nation called Under Developed because we don't have lightspeed technology is somewhat insulting :}

Being somewhat of a Star Trek fan, I do like the idea of this. But having my nation called Under Developed because we don't have lightspeed technology is somewhat insulting :}

Eh, "Under" is a relative term; would have to stretch it to make it an insult. Less Developed is the same thing. Nothing inherantly wrong with being technologically inferior...

Onto the subject though... Hiro; good work... I am impressed... You must have spent some time reviewing GEDRA too.

Yeah, DemonlordEnigma is right. While this was in the other forum, I was helped by several people, including himself. Weyr helped me clarify the prime characteristics by defining a technological point, rather than using the Technological equivalence in Earth time. DemonlordEnigma helped me make it much more flexible by stating that I should add Article 5. And the most basic concept (Article 3a) came from an RPG game called "Star Ocean." Star Ocean is very similar to Star Trek. With all the help it became really, really good. But, unfortunately it didn't debut very well. Again, as I stated, I didn't want this to go to waste. So, I submitted it as a proposal draft to the UN.

Oh and Tekania, I've never really heard of the GEDRA until fairly recently, when Gobular introduced it to me. I checked it out and it really looks like an excellent alliance.

Being somewhat of a Star Trek fan, I do like the idea of this. But having my nation called Under Developed because we don't have lightspeed technology is somewhat insulting :}

Oh, I'm sorry, It wasn't supposed to be insulting. Its actually better than "technologically inferior civilization" ^^

Article 2: The prime characteristic of an underdeveloped civilization
a. Underdeveloped civilizations have not technologically progressed to a point where it uses lightspeed technology and other general equivalents to travel through interstellar space.

The Republic of Adam Island finds this resolution incredibly insulting and demeaning. Just because we don't have a particular fancy gadget does NOT mean we are "underdeveloped." We are morally, ethically and socially FAR more developed than most of the arrogant space travelers that spit upon our nation with slurs and insults. The Republic of Adam Island officially suggests that perhaps the nation of Hiroshiko is the one that is savage, as they have no conception of culture outside technological luck.



Article 3: The protection of underdeveloped civilizations
a. Advanced civilizations may not in any way interfere with technological progress in an underdeveloped civilization.
b. Advanced civilizations cannot colonize planets with underdeveloped civilizations already thriving on it.
c. Advanced civilizations are prohited to conquer and enslave a planet that contains underdeveloped civilizations.


This is yet another horrible horrible idea. For one thing, B would make the many many nations on my planet with interstellar technology illegal. Also, we believe that it is only through the sharing of technology through the free exchange of goods and ideas between various cultures that peace and progress can be acheived. And if the planet is ruled by bloodthirsty communists, I see nothing wrong with a benevolent nation conquering it.


This proposal is condescending and counter-productive. We vehemently oppose it.

OOC: Please, its how you interpret "Underdeveloped." If you want it to be insulting, then thats up to you. We interpret it as a just and correct name. We're not degrading you in anyway, this is a protection act. We would've called you technologically challenged if we wanted to insult you. Besides, Article 3b CAN be interchanged with your laws. It states so on Article 5.

OOC: Please, its how you interpret "Underdeveloped." If you want it to be insulting, then thats up to you. We interpret it as a just and correct name. We're not degrading you in anyway, this is a protection act. We would've called you technologically challenged if we wanted to insult you. Besides, Article 3b CAN be interchanged with your laws. It states so on Article 5.

Just the idea that I somehow need protection is insulting. How about "non-space-traveling" nations? That would be a lot more fair and just than "underdeveloped."


Article 5: Exceptions to the Act
a. If an advanced civilization already uses a set of laws similar to the UCPA, then those laws can be executed and then be assimilated with or take the place of Article 3 and Article 4. However, the local laws must be approved by the majority before they are used.

Article 5 does not say that Article 3b can be interchanged with my laws. It says that if an advanced civilization has laws that are SIMILAR to the UCPA, then those laws can take its place. I'm not sure if "advanced civilization" is meant to refer to my nation or a "developed" nation. My nation has no laws similar to the UCPA- in fact, we have laws that are in many ways the OPPOSITE of the UCPA.

Adam Island, you are correct in many aspects. I've reexamined the UCPA and it leans in favor of higher technological nations. I'm going to add more stuff later to remedy the unbalance.

This is yet another horrible horrible idea. For one thing, B would make the many many nations on my planet with interstellar technology illegal. Also, we believe that it is only through the sharing of technology through the free exchange of goods and ideas between various cultures that peace and progress can be acheived. And if the planet is ruled by bloodthirsty communists, I see nothing wrong with a benevolent nation conquering it.

Dude, if you keep sharing your ideas on technology...sooner or later its going to turn on your nation. Wait till one of your extremist groups obtain WMDs. The real world exchanges cultural values, trades goods, and shares technology...but is it really peaceful today? Your equation for peace is quite good in intention, but add corruption and it falls out. So, its better not to exchange technology. In the act, I've allowed the exchange of cultures and basic goods, but not technology. For nations who are borderline, which means almost to the point in achieving lightspeed technology, thats another story. I'm adding the exception for them.

Adam Island, you are correct in many aspects. I've reexamined the UCPA and it leans in favor of higher technological nations. I'm going to add more stuff later to remedy the unbalance.

Thank you, I'm glad you're re-examining and revising. I am still concerned though. If my nation wants to buy nuclear technology to defend ourselves, will this limit it? Will it force us to spend billions on a brand new space program instead of simply buying it at market price from other nations? Will it forbid many nations from introducing things like paper, vaccination, and pasteurization?

Hiroshiko: I misread your proposal earlier, hence my confusion. No problems on that front now.

Guess we'll just have to re-double our efforts to get our wormhole technology working for physical objects. Shouldn't take too long.

Enn: Hey, I apologize for my rudeness. It wasn't necessary.

Adam Island: Please read Article 4 again...it permits you to trade so as long as it doesn't interfere with technological progress. Lets say you request a number of atomic bombs, and your nation already has acquired or somewhat acquired the knowledge of atomic energy. Then the nation you request the bombs from can trade you such things. If you ask for some higher-level weapon that had not been discovered or invented in your nation, you will be denied. So if you ask for something like a fusion bomb, you will be turned down. Vaccinations, and other stuff are applied the same way.

Hiroshiko: I misread your proposal earlier, hence my confusion. No problems on that front now.

Guess we'll just have to re-double our efforts to get our wormhole technology working for physical objects. Shouldn't take too long.

Graviton Jump engines are easier and the first step along that path. Shoot for those first.

Just the idea that I somehow need protection is insulting. How about "non-space-traveling" nations? That would be a lot more fair and just than "underdeveloped."



Article 5 does not say that Article 3b can be interchanged with my laws. It says that if an advanced civilization has laws that are SIMILAR to the UCPA, then those laws can take its place. I'm not sure if "advanced civilization" is meant to refer to my nation or a "developed" nation. My nation has no laws similar to the UCPA- in fact, we have laws that are in many ways the OPPOSITE of the UCPA.

Under-Developed is not meant to be demeaning within this document... Though in GEDRA (Galactic Exploratory, Defense and Research Alliance) we merely reffered to said civilizations as ones who "have not attained inter-stellar travel". [GEDRA Article 7. "No member world/system will interfere with the development or advancement of any culture that has not attained interstellar travel." and in addition GEDRA Article 6. "No member world/system will engage in piracy, or other such means upon other member worlds/systems or any other space-faring or non space-faring culture."] I'm sure there was no demeaning intent. And much like GEDRA, the UCPA is designed to protect your civilization from interference by other more technologically advanced civilizations. And, in fact, GEDRA presently has a sub-organization which is dedicated to the active defense of technologically inferior civilizations against technologically superior civilizations... Which may, pending council vote, become an official part of the GEDRA charter.

Though maybe, if this proposal fails; future proposals can at least note that tehcnologically inferior nations do not neccessarily constitute as being less civilizationally developed.

The GEDRA charter seems very interesting...are there still open spots for new members?

To all: Tekania has explained the full purpose of the UCPA so concise that I don't really have anything to add on. I'm impressed by your response, Tekania.

Though maybe, if this proposal fails; future proposals can at least note that tehcnologically inferior nations do not neccessarily constitute as being less civilizationally developed.

I'm going to add this later. Don't worry, I haven't submitted it yet.

The GEDRA charter seems very interesting...are there still open spots for new members?

To all: Tekania has explained the full purpose of the UCPA so concise that I don't really have anything to add on. I'm impressed by your response, Tekania.

GEDRA is a continous alliance, it is always open...

Eh, "Under" is a relative term; would have to stretch it to make it an insult. Less Developed is the same thing. Nothing inherantly wrong with being technologically inferior...

I know. But it was about the only thing I could find with the proposal, and I really dislike the assumption that because TilEnca is a medieval society with very little technology in it it is less developed than a nation that is capable of destroying the world at the touch of a button :}

Oh, I'm sorry, It wasn't supposed to be insulting. Its actually better than "technologically inferior civilization" ^^

No offence was really taken :}

OOC: Please, its how you interpret "Underdeveloped." If you want it to be insulting, then thats up to you. We interpret it as a just and correct name. We're not degrading you in anyway, this is a protection act. We would've called you technologically challenged if we wanted to insult you. Besides, Article 3b CAN be interchanged with your laws. It states so on Article 5.

(OOC - Star Trek refers to them as "pre-warp civilizations" if that helps :})

(OOC - Star Trek refers to them as "pre-warp civilizations" if that helps :})

OOC: Which includes many FT nations. Try Pre-FTL.

I know. But it was about the only thing I could find with the proposal, and I really dislike the assumption that because TilEnca is a medieval society with very little technology in it it is less developed than a nation that is capable of destroying the world at the touch of a button :}

With absolute power, comes absolute responsibility; which is generally what the gist of this resolution is for; though It is likely the term may be dropped... I generally preffered "non space-faring" and "[having] not attained inter-stellar travel" when describing said cultures/civilizations when drafting the GEDRA, and maybe those terms could be applied to this proposal.

Of course, there are many cases where the Republic was faced by little more than cave-men with "big honking space guns" to quote BGEN Jack O'Niel... And we marvel at how a culture as unsophisticated as that was able to cooperate long enough to build their massive planet busters, without first killing themselves off in petty feuds and civil-wars. And we generally believe many of those instances were the result of technological interference... Providing high levels of technology to civilizations that had not reached a point in development in demonstration of their ability to be responsible with said technologies. And that, more than likely, were races left to technologically develope at their own pace; their would be far fewer cases of such activities in the void...