NationStates Jolt Archive

Dear all UN Delegates,

For the well being of our planet and the health of our citizens please support my proposal for a clean and healthy world...

Today the vast majority of air pollution comes from the burning of fossil fuels. This contributes to global warming, smog, lung cancer and low visibilty for aircraft which increases the risk of accidents. We must put an end to this as quickly as possible. So, the Democratic Republic of Ocean County, New Jersey proposes this..... a new law that will fight for the well being and health of all of Earth's inhabitants.

Phase 1
By 2018 all automobiles will use a new fuel, a non-polluting fuel for propulsion- Hydrogen. Hydrogen is VERY Clean as the only emittent is water vapor. Current cars use natural gas as fuel which accounts for nearly 70%of the world's air pollution. Here's a cool thing.... since the only by product is water, the driver can choose one of two things, either emitt into the air OR store it in a tank in the car and then take it to a water treatment plant where the water company which actually PAY for your water!

Phase 2
By 2023 all power plants in the world must use one of the following power sources: solar, wind, tidal energy, geothermal, hydroelectic or nuclear (STRONGLY DISCOURAGED). My region (the Jersey Shore) just recently switched over to only solar, wind and wave/tidal. The burning of fossil fuels in power plants accounts for 15% of the world's air pollution. All of these sources are extremely reliable and don't affect the environment AT ALL.

Phase 3- By 2025 all factories, commercial airliners and trains will use hydrogen fuel. Hydrogen engines have already been produced for jetliners and are being developed for trains. Factories will use a Hydrogen Fuel Cell about 50 times the size of a car hyrdogen engine. Currently hydrogen power plants are being developed as well. By probably 2010, the first hydrogen power plant will come online, adding to the list of fossil fuel power plant alternatives.

So please join in my cause for a MUCH cleaner and much healthier world for today, tomorrow and beyond to prosper in.

Thank You

Patrik H.
President of Ocean County, New Jesey
Prime Minister of the Jersey Shore

More Hydrogen?

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

Ocean County NJ,

First let me say that The Armed Republic of Aliste applauds your efforts. We too are against pollution.

However we do have some concerns. This new fuel, hydrogen - how efficient is it? Is it just as efficient as gassoline?

Also, The Armed Republic of Aliste is not fond of nuclear power. And how reliable or efficient even is wind or solar energy?

Just some concerns, but we will not hesitate to support this proposal if these concerns are cleared up.

Please give us a better understanding of how exactly this will work.

The Armed Republic of Aliste.

However we do have some concerns. This new fuel, hydrogen - how efficient is it? Is it just as efficient as gassoline?
It isn't new.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7029618&postcount=19

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

Replying to some questions...


Hydrogen is MUCH MORE efficient than gasoline and will be cheaper under my new law. Solar energy is very efficient in sunny, clean conditions... it doesn't have to be 95 degrees though, as long as the sun is shining. Whenever there is excess energy produced by solar cells it is stored in batteries for use when it gets cloudy or dark. Wind energy is efficient even in a breeze, just imagine the excess electricity during a storm with 60 mph winds!!! That ould last you a couple of days or so. Like I said if there is no wind or no sun all plants will have back up turbines. If your country is next to an ocean or large lake, a great place to the windmills is over the water about 3 miles from shore where there is almost always a wind. That is what we have done in Ocean Co. I hope this helps

Hydrogen is MUCH MORE efficient than gasoline and will be cheaper under my new law.
Presumably that's why we already use it…

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

The Armed Republic of Aliste is still unsure.

Dear Giordano,

Great you already use hydrogen cars, but A LOT don't! Please support my proposal if you're a Delegate. I'm sure you know, if it gets 140 Delegate votes, ALL UN members can vote on it.


Ocean County, NJ

That's it! I'm converting to paganism. I've taken God's name in vain so many times while reading this board I've probably damned myself to Hell and, frankly, I'm not going to stick around for that option.

Dear all UN Delegates,

For the well being of our planet and the health of our citizens please support my proposal for a clean and healthy world...

Okay. We can start by engineering a biovirus that will eradicate all sentient life. Otherwise, it's impossible.

Today the vast majority of air pollution comes from the burning of fossil fuels. This contributes to global warming, smog, lung cancer and low visibilty for aircraft which increases the risk of accidents. We must put an end to this as quickly as possible. So, the Democratic Republic of Ocean County, New Jersey proposes this..... a new law that will fight for the well being and health of all of Earth's inhabitants.

Nothing new here. Haven't we shot down, destroyed, bombed, nuked, and editted to extinction over a hundred of these already? I believe we have one of these we're already working on for this...

Phase 1
By 2018 all automobiles will use a new fuel, a non-polluting fuel for propulsion- Hydrogen. Hydrogen is VERY Clean as the only emittent is water vapor. Current cars use natural gas as fuel which accounts for nearly 70%of the world's air pollution. Here's a cool thing.... since the only by product is water, the driver can choose one of two things, either emitt into the air OR store it in a tank in the car and then take it to a water treatment plant where the water company which actually PAY for your water!

1) Hydrogen is not a very clean fuel. Even the most conservative estimates I have seen of the amount of ecological damage it can do with the increase you are talking about makes fossil fuels look clean. We're talking extreme climate shifts well beyond measureable in your lifetime.

2) The water has to be processed, cleaned, etc. There are more health concerns about drinking that water than I even want to attempt to account for.

3) Hydrogen is far more explosive than gasoline is. Instead of a gas truck crashing on the highway and you losing a part of a block at most, you could end up losing six blocks.

4) This is already true of the UN. Try reading the passed resolutions before simply submitting a proposal.

Phase 2
By 2023 all power plants in the world must use one of the following power sources: solar, wind, tidal energy, geothermal, hydroelectic or nuclear (STRONGLY DISCOURAGED). My region (the Jersey Shore) just recently switched over to only solar, wind and wave/tidal. The burning of fossil fuels in power plants accounts for 15% of the world's air pollution. All of these sources are extremely reliable and don't affect the environment AT ALL.

Solar is only practical when your planet is orbitting a red giant. Earth's laughable excuse of a star is far from that. You get a long period of clouds and all of that solar energy you built up will be rapidly used up and leaving you powerless. Wind power requires so many generators and the right region that even attempting to use it would cost more than it would save, and that's hoping you actually store power instead of using it directly. Tidal forces don't even provide the laughable amount of power wind does. Geothermal would be nice, but it involves a separate kind of damaging the planet in that you must dig deep into it to get anywhere in most regions. Nuclear power is the only one practical, but anyone who knows anything about it can tell you the problems it has.

And, don't affect the environment at all? Nope. The amount of wind power plants needed for even a decently-sized nation in NS would change weather patterns. And the waste from nuclear power plants has to be disposed somewhere. Plus, no one knows how drilling far enough into the Earth to get geothermal in necessary amounts will affect anything.

I hope your country likes power outages. You're likely to have them a lot when you get bigger.

Phase 3- By 2025 all factories, commercial airliners and trains will use hydrogen fuel. Hydrogen engines have already been produced for jetliners and are being developed for trains. Factories will use a Hydrogen Fuel Cell about 50 times the size of a car hyrdogen engine. Currently hydrogen power plants are being developed as well. By probably 2010, the first hydrogen power plant will come online, adding to the list of fossil fuel power plant alternatives.

1) Go back and read what I said about #1 (though, no resolution on this exists yet). This is suicidal.
2) If you want energy that provides the same power, only without the rather extreme environmental changes you are advocating from the pollution of your factories, then go with plutonium power cells. They're more expensive, but they last far longer and don't have anywhere near the capacity to totally destroy the environment that what you are advocating does.

So please join in my cause for a MUCH cleaner and much healthier world for today, tomorrow and beyond to prosper in.

Thank You

Patrik H.
President of Ocean County, New Jesey
Prime Minister of the Jersey Shore

Your cause is good in intent, but bad in actual execution. I do not fault you for it, as I am struggling with how to solve those problems before they become such on my planets, but your methods are, despite the propaganda advocating them, more dangerous that if we switched entirely to nuclear. So, I must advise against supporting this.

Just to let you know, the infamous "Clean Air Act" has been tampered with by Bush and is now one of the many thorns in the side of environmentalists such as my self.

Perhaps it would be best to change the name, or at least put it in Latin or something, so that the association with it isn't there.

Dear Aliste,

Thanks a trillion for supporting my legislation.


Patrik Hornak
President
Ocean County, New Jersey

Dear Giordano,

Great you already use hydrogen cars, but A LOT don't! Please support my proposal if you're a Delegate. I'm sure you know, if it gets 140 Delegate votes, ALL UN members can vote on it.


Ocean County, NJ
Everyone in The UN does.

I posted a link of it four posts back. Didn't you read the past resolutions before submitting this?

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

However we do have some concerns. This new fuel, hydrogen - how efficient is it? Is it just as efficient as gassoline?

Just as efficient, only far more dangerous.

Also, The Armed Republic of Aliste is not fond of nuclear power. And how reliable or efficient even is wind or solar energy?

Wind and solar are not efficient or reliable on Earth. Solar power runs out too fast and requires backups to even be practical in solar cars while wind is limited in where you can place it and so inefficient that France would have to annex Belgium and use Belgium for nothing more than wind power plants just to power their major cities.

The Armed Republic of Aliste is now teetering on the issue.

I'll do some research and get back to you - but it sounds to me that wind and solar are not as reliable because they are dependant on conditions that cannot be controlled.

But we stand with you in unwaviering support of better environmental conditions.

The Armed Republic of Aliste's position as of now: unsure.

Is hydrogen more efficient than gasoline? Doesn't seem that way to me...although it is a great alternative source of enegy. The biggest problem (seeing as we already have the technology) is harvesting it efficiently, and in enough abundance that every car in the world can run on it. Not that simple is it?

And what would you do with the millions of gasoline-powered cars? Would you make it mandatory to have them switched to hydrogen power? That would take an aweful lot of manpower and would probably take much more than 14 years to phase in with everything else.

Nuclear power, if stored properly is very safe and efficient. A piece of uranium the size of your fingernail has about as much potential as a ton of coal when it comes to producing energy. Think about that...is it worth passing this up so you can blanket your nation with wind generators and solar panels for that bare minimum of what you need to power millions (or billions) of homes?

And face it. If you have 500 million cars in your country releasing water from their tanks non-stop, what happens to the roads? You cannot store water in your car...that would be MUCH too heavy (please note a cubic meter of water weighs a cubic ton).

I'm not saying that hydrogen is a bad idea...it's a great idea...but so is nuclear power, seeing as hydrogen has many setbacks right now. All we need to do is refine it more and phase it in...and that will take a while...but worry not...we have enough fossil fuels to last us a while :D

Also: Hydrogen needs a proper oxygen:hydrogen ratio (7:1 I think, please correct me) to combust, so an explosion would not be imminent if a car crashed...give it time to disperse and you have problems. Hydrogen escapes easily though, so I don't believe it would be much of a problem outdoors...

Finally: An interesting fact: Hydrogen combustion was NOT responsible for the Hindenberg crash, but rather it was the material used for the airship. Hydrogen burns clear, and eyewitness acounts say otherwise (burned red/orange)

Dear DemonLordEnigma,


Please get your facts straight! Yes I know Hydrogen is volatile but please I guess you haven't known about all of the car company's successes in preventing an accident. I'm not telling any nation to go for wind entirely! Duh! Its more like a combo of all of these power sources wind, solar, geothermal, and tidal- tidal being BY FAR the best and most reliable. I haven't heard anything about the windmills changing wind currents- I actually have a 602 page book explaining all of the various power sources. It clearly said THE ONLY WAY WIND POWER PLANTS WOULD AFFECT THE ENVIRONMENT WOULD BE BIRDS FLYING THROUGH THE THINGS! Solar cells are very efficient in sunny conditions and I think you PURPOSELY skipped over the fact I said EACH PLANT WOULD HAVE BACK UP TURBINES! I think you need to pay attention more

All this argument about hydrogen is really beside the point. All UN nations use it already.

I think you need to pay attention more.

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

Haha funny thing about birds getting trapped in propelors

We stick them in the places with the best wind currents

Which birds use to migrate more efficiently

I say that every placement of wind generators comes with a bar & grill

And face it. If you have 500 million cars in your country releasing water from their tanks non-stop, what happens to the roads? You cannot store water in your car...that would be MUCH too heavy (please note a cubic meter of water weighs a cubic ton).

To hell with the roads. What do you think happens when you have that much of an increase of moisture into the air? At best, you'll completely eliminate the capacity for solar power to be useful because of your nation constantly being clouded over. At worst, we're talking climate changes beyond the scope that fossil fuels are even capable of.

Dear DemonLordEnigma,


Please get your facts straight!

I work in advertising. Part of my job involves researching certain subjects, including alternative fuels.

Yes I know Hydrogen is volatile but please I guess you haven't known about all of the car company's successes in preventing an accident.

They also have failures. I'm not willing to risk six blocks of my capital city on the chance that an accident of that nature won't happen. This is part of why I have limited hydrogen vehicles to the territory of Tiamat Taveril.

I'm not telling any nation to go for wind entirely! Duh! Its more like a combo of all of these power sources wind, solar, geothermal, and tidal- tidal being BY FAR the best and most reliable.

If you're using high amounts of hydrogen power, those solar power sources may be completely useless. See what I said above to Dresophila Prime.

Tidal may be reliable, but as an energy source it is laughable. Not enough nations have access to the necessary areas for it to be even considered an alternative in most cases. While a combination is nice, you're still devoting most of your land to power plants instead of homes.

I haven't heard anything about the windmills changing wind currents- I actually have a 602 page book explaining all of the various power sources. It clearly said THE ONLY WAY WIND POWER PLANTS WOULD AFFECT THE ENVIRONMENT WOULD BE BIRDS FLYING THROUGH THE THINGS!

Uh huh. You've never seen the Metropolis Effect then.

What do you think is going to happen when you have all of those tall, standing structures that number in the thousands or millions just to get power? Wind patterns, normally not having anything to direct their path, will change as a result. From this change in the wind patterns near the ground you get changes in wind patterns higher up, and those in turn affect winds higher up. After a century, we're talking a major change in the patters of that area from the cascading effect it creates. Keep in mind that books can be wrong.

Solar cells are very efficient in sunny conditions and I think you PURPOSELY skipped over the fact I said EACH PLANT WOULD HAVE BACK UP TURBINES! I think you need to pay attention more

Nope. You didn't. The proof:

Phase 2
By 2023 all power plants in the world must use one of the following power sources: solar, wind, tidal energy, geothermal, hydroelectic or nuclear (STRONGLY DISCOURAGED). My region (the Jersey Shore) just recently switched over to only solar, wind and wave/tidal. The burning of fossil fuels in power plants accounts for 15% of the world's air pollution. All of these sources are extremely reliable and don't affect the environment AT ALL.

You did not even mention turbines. The only part I can think of where you did was where you mentioned what your region is doing, which is irrelevant because not all regions are structured the same way and will use the same combination. I'm not the one needing to pay attention.

Wow! Deja Vu all over again!


Hydrogen Powered Vehicles
A resolution to increase the quality of the world's environment, at the expense of industry.


Category: Environmental
Industry Affected: Automobile Manufacturing
Proposed by: Kibombwe

Description: We, the people of Kibombwe, propose that every nation should start developing hydrogen powered cars. We have polluted the air for too long -- it needs to stop. By passing this resolution we will be able to accompish these three things.

1. Less acid rain. Acid rain a problem that we feel should be stopped. It is especially a problem in the Northeast corner of the U.S.A. The Northeast is a place rich in historical buildings which acid rain damages. We passed a "PROTECT HISTORICAL SITES." This would only furthermore protect historical sites.

2. We wouldn't have to use as much oil. Oil is a nonrenewable resource that we only have so much of. By passing this resolution we would only prolong the time that we have oil on earth.

3. We would have cleaner air. Does anyone remember the days when "fresh air" was actually fresh? When it was a pure thing, without chemicals and other junk mixing in the air. With cleaner air, everyone would live longer, happier lives.

I hope that anyone and everyone who reads this agrees with us. PLEASE MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE!!!

Votes For: 12,533
Votes Against: 3,280

Implemented: Mon Jun 16 2003

Bumping this up because he started a second topic on it to say the same thing.

Dear all UN Delegates,

For the well being of our planet and the health of our citizens please support my proposal for a clean and healthy world...

Today the vast majority of air pollution comes from the burning of fossil fuels. This contributes to global warming, smog, lung cancer and low visibilty for aircraft which increases the risk of accidents. We must put an end to this as quickly as possible. So, the Democratic Republic of Ocean County, New Jersey proposes this..... a new law that will fight for the well being and health of all of Earth's inhabitants.

Oh god not again. I didn't even read the responses to this, so we've probably covered this but I'm going to rant anyhow. First, this is so very, VERY, redudant.


Phase 1
By 2018 all automobiles will use a new fuel, a non-polluting fuel for propulsion- Hydrogen. Hydrogen is VERY Clean as the only emittent is water vapor. Current cars use natural gas as fuel which accounts for nearly 70%of the world's air pollution. Here's a cool thing.... since the only by product is water, the driver can choose one of two things, either emitt into the air OR store it in a tank in the car and then take it to a water treatment plant where the water company which actually PAY for your water!


Congratualtions! your time table will effectively cause massive economic instability and nearly destroy the auto industry from massive restructuring. Hydrogen fuel cell technology is nowhere near what it needs to be to produce effective long term fuel solutions. Quick fact, do you know what a huge greenhouse gas is? Water vapor! Your water cars will effectively create massive global warming. Unless they all take their precious water to the treatment plant for their huge payoff. I dont know about you, but where I come from water is free, and I wouldn't pay jack if somebody offered me a tub of it. They'd probably waste more in fuel costs getting there than they'd make.


Phase 2
By 2023 all power plants in the world must use one of the following power sources: solar, wind, tidal energy, geothermal, hydroelectic or nuclear (STRONGLY DISCOURAGED). My region (the Jersey Shore) just recently switched over to only solar, wind and wave/tidal. The burning of fossil fuels in power plants accounts for 15% of the world's air pollution. All of these sources are extremely reliable and don't affect the environment AT ALL.

Solar: High maintanance, low yield.
Wind: Regionally reliable, globally not. Has problems with mass implementation too. Have weather effects on large scales.
Geothermal: Very expensive, low yield.
Tidal: Near worthless. Expensive, high maintanance, low yield. Bad for aquatic life.
Hydroelectric: Good supplamentary source, but not enough acceptable building areas to shoulder demand. Bad for aquatic life.
Nuclear: Despite your disaproval this is actually the most viable clean energy source, especially with more advanced material recycling techniques.


Phase 3- By 2025 all factories, commercial airliners and trains will use hydrogen fuel. Hydrogen engines have already been produced for jetliners and are being developed for trains. Factories will use a Hydrogen Fuel Cell about 50 times the size of a car hyrdogen engine. Currently hydrogen power plants are being developed as well. By probably 2010, the first hydrogen power plant will come online, adding to the list of fossil fuel power plant alternatives.

Hydrogen is not that advanced. Perhaps eventually it will provide solutions but banking on hydrogen saving us in the next fifty years is unlikely.


So please join in my cause for a MUCH cleaner and much healthier world for today, tomorrow and beyond to prosper in.

Thank You

Patrik H.
President of Ocean County, New Jesey
Prime Minister of the Jersey Shore

I'm sorry, all I heard was blah blah blah bankrupt your government, economy, and citizens to implement an impossible plan we already enacted before because it sounds really cool.

Dear all UN Delegates,

For the well being of our planet and the health of our citizens please support my proposal for a clean and healthy world...

Today the vast majority of air pollution comes from the burning of fossil fuels. This contributes to global warming, smog, lung cancer and low visibilty for aircraft which increases the risk of accidents. We must put an end to this as quickly as possible. So, the Democratic Republic of Ocean County, New Jersey proposes this..... a new law that will fight for the well being and health of all of Earth's inhabitants.

Phase 1
By 2018 all automobiles will use a new fuel, a non-polluting fuel for propulsion- Hydrogen. Hydrogen is VERY Clean as the only emittent is water vapor. Current cars use natural gas as fuel which accounts for nearly 70%of the world's air pollution. Here's a cool thing.... since the only by product is water, the driver can choose one of two things, either emitt into the air OR store it in a tank in the car and then take it to a water treatment plant where the water company which actually PAY for your water!

Phase 2
By 2023 all power plants in the world must use one of the following power sources: solar, wind, tidal energy, geothermal, hydroelectic or nuclear (STRONGLY DISCOURAGED). My region (the Jersey Shore) just recently switched over to only solar, wind and wave/tidal. The burning of fossil fuels in power plants accounts for 15% of the world's air pollution. All of these sources are extremely reliable and don't affect the environment AT ALL.

Phase 3- By 2025 all factories, commercial airliners and trains will use hydrogen fuel. Hydrogen engines have already been produced for jetliners and are being developed for trains. Factories will use a Hydrogen Fuel Cell about 50 times the size of a car hyrdogen engine. Currently hydrogen power plants are being developed as well. By probably 2010, the first hydrogen power plant will come online, adding to the list of fossil fuel power plant alternatives.

So please join in my cause for a MUCH cleaner and much healthier world for today, tomorrow and beyond to prosper in.

Thank You

Patrik H.
President of Ocean County, New Jesey
Prime Minister of the Jersey Shore


Once again, the DRA, while strongly supportive of environmental initatives, is adamantly opposed to resolutions which force nations to adopt only one form of green technology for vehicles. As I have stated on your other resolution and in my proposal to repeal resolution 18, hydrogen powered vehicles is only *one* option. Many other nations have solar powered vehicles, electric vehicles, and hybrid vehicles. Here again, this resolution forces researches and auto manufactures to look into only one option for green automobiles.

The DRA beleives strongly in having green cars. The DRA, however, also believes that the type of environmentallly friendly power that is used to run these cars should be adopted based upon the scientific expertise of the researchers in that nation. Focusing on only one option eliminates research into other areas and I believe is detrimental to the environment. Research into other forms of green vehicles would not only create a wide range of environmentally friendly options, it would also create new technology and research which could be used for other applications in developing a greener economy. The DRA does not beleive that researches should be forced to examine only one option in the rapidly growing realm of environmental technology, rather the DRA believes that research should be focused on the area of green technology that that nation's researchers have the most expertise in. This way, each nation will be researching a wide range of new ideas and technology to help save the environment. THe DRA believes this could have a much greater impact on the world in terms of improving the environment instead of focusing research and development in one area. Just as nations tend to specialize in areas where they have an economic advantage, scientific research should be specialized in the area of green technology that the nation's scientific community has the most knowledge and expertise in.

Therefore, because the DRA believes this is counter-productive economically and environmentally, this resolution will not get our support.

By 2023 all power plants in the world must use one of the following power sources: solar, wind, tidal energy, geothermal, hydroelectic or nuclear

1) This prohibits the testing, development and use of new power sources.

2) It doesn't even say 'active' power plants, so we would have to destroy ancient power plants kept up for historical purposes.

3) Its 1984 in Adam Island's calendar, and I know in other places their calendar says its already past 2023.

Hmm... Lets do some math. Please keep in mind these are made up figures and the real numbers would be greatly appreciated.

Now, lets say that each of these 500,000,000 cars used, say, 100 grams of hydrogen a day. That’s all. Considering the ratio in water of hydrogen to oxygen is about 1 to 8, that’s 400,000,000,000 grams of water, or 400,000 cubic meters of water per day. that have to be split through hydrolysis. And how are you going to get the power to split the water, hmm? Solar? I don't think so. Try coal, or oil.

Now, lets say that, oh, 10% of that hydrogen is turned back into water in the form of water vapor. that would be 40,000 cubic maters of water in the atmosphere every day. Please keep in mind that these figures are probably ridiculously low.


To reinforce some earlier points, wind, tidal, solar, and geothermal power cannot power a large country, certainly not with today’s demands, and absolutely not without hurting the environment. Furthermore, I’ll also support nuclear power as the cheapest, safest, most efficient power source. And do you know where all of those icky barrels of radioactive waste are kept? In the reactor, with tons of water and concrete shielding it from outside.

My two cents.

Water vapor contributes to global warming more so than the infamous greenhouse gasses. Add cars as a new source of water to the ecosystem, and, well damn.

Electric vehicles have the greatest potential for efficient energy use. And have several sources that can be used to provide energy, (Some solar, Some Wind, Nuclear (there is a british firm that can recycle uranium waste rods), and existing water ways 9hydroelectric)) and costs are comprable to gasoline in the long term. (Long Term as compared to gasoline and hydrogen).

The last issue of green car journal, a cal air resources board publication, has some good articles on EVs v Hydrogen over the long term.(Notice use of Long Term)

Timelines make people work harder, they do not make us magically smarter. The problems of finding a clean energy source is like finding a cure for cancer. We all want to, but cannot force ourselves and others who already are trying to find a solution, to find it faster. Odds are it is not possible to meet such guideline, and puts undue stress on those who are already working on a noble cause.

Good work Sedusa, and highly conservative.

Hmm... Lets do some math. Please keep in mind these are made up figures and the real numbers would be greatly appreciated.

Now, lets say that each of these 500,000,000 cars used, say, 100 grams of hydrogen a day. That’s all. Considering the ratio in water of hydrogen to oxygen is about 1 to 8, that’s 400,000,000,000 grams of water, or 400,000 cubic meters of water per day. that have to be split through hydrolysis. And how are you going to get the power to split the water, hmm? Solar? I don't think so. Try coal, or oil.

Now, lets say that, oh, 10% of that hydrogen is turned back into water in the form of water vapor. that would be 40,000 cubic maters of water in the atmosphere every day. Please keep in mind that these figures are probably ridiculously low.


To reinforce some earlier points, wind, tidal, solar, and geothermal power cannot power a large country, certainly not with today’s demands, and absolutely not without hurting the environment. Furthermore, I’ll also support nuclear power as the cheapest, safest, most efficient power source. And do you know where all of those icky barrels of radioactive waste are kept? In the reactor, with tons of water and concrete shielding it from outside.

My two cents.

What is a cent? We use credits around here...

Let's consider a few things:

1. In NationStates, you will find that there are MANY nations that have populations well into their billions...now, on a 'theoretical' earth with say, 6 billion people, there are (safetly guessing) about 1 billion cars...imagine youmultiply that by say, 100.

2. 40,000 cubic meters of water released from the entire Earth each day is really not that much... .04 cubic kilometers...and of course it will get recycled back into the atmosphere. While this will affect large cities immensly, it will do nothing harmful to the earth, however.

But then again you also said that you were underestimating, so I will take that presumption and multiply it by say, 100.

The effect is noticeably more prominent and the reprecussions on our precious, precious environment is devastating. Perhaps similar to what we saw in "Day after Tomorrow," yet 5 times worse than the overall quality of the movie.

So hydrogen, though an ingenious idea that does have many benefits to its credit, is cast aside along with wind, tidal, solar, solar2, geothermal and any other loser energy source. Isn't it odd that nuclear power happens to be the cleanest of all? Not to mention it has the highest yield...keep that in mind.

So hydrogen, though an ingenious idea that does have many benefits to its credit, is cast aside along with wind, tidal, solar, solar2, geothermal and any other loser energy source. Isn't it odd that nuclear power happens to be the cleanest of all? Not to mention it has the highest yield...keep that in mind.

Actually, there is something that yields a reactionary force 300 times greater than fusion, thus yielding far more power, and is equally clean and only about 20-40 years away from development: Antimatter reactions.

Going to reality, Sweden currently has a reactor producing antimatter one quark at a time. A MT nation in NS that focuses on it and starts there could have their first antimatter reactor up and running within 20-40 NS years. The resulting plasma can be used as a source of thermal energy, with the matter that cools down to not being a superheated gas sent right back into the reactor to be used again. Suddenly the waste product is itself recyclable and a separate energy source.

This intrigues me...I'll have to look it up...

How does the phase-in look, is it reliable, and is it cost-effective?

Reliable? It requires powerful electromagnets in order to keep the reaction from breaking through the outer casing and turning North America into Happy Fun Mutation Land.

To be honest, it's almost cost-prohibitive at first (much like nuclear power was) but, once you have it in place and figured out, you're suddenly finding you don't need as many powerplants to do the same job anymore. It'll be a bit of an economic hit at first, but once in place it should be just as efficient as nuclear power while providing quite a bit more. The reactor itself, like fusion reactors, requires a lot of power to run. Once you get it setup right, the reactor can probably power itself.