NationStates Jolt Archive

I think we should pass a resolution that bans discernment of race/ethnicity. You shouldn't be classified by race for any job application, college application, and so on. I believe the only times race classification should be used is medical studies and if a criminal is on the loose. Though their might be a few others that I have left out.

Using race, is simply stupid, it should have nothing to do with applying to jobs or colleges. If test results or other studies are released race or ethnicity shouldn't be asked. It has no bearing on anything. Medical research is aloud, because certian groups of people are more sceptibal(sp?) to a certian sickness and so forth, but why should race or ethnic questions be asked for a job or anything. Race doesn't have an effect on how smart you are or if you would do a job better. If anybody out there agrees, or agrees with parts of this, please reply and maybe we can create a resolution?

Whilst we don't see much point in requesting data about race, ours is a very tolerant society with many laws preventing real discrimination, so there would be very little point in forbidding people from asking about race in _Myopia_. And we don't like it when government enacts laws preventing people from doing something when there isn't a reason.

Hang on, I just realised that may not be very clear. Does it make sense?

Yeah I got what ya meant...no need to prevent people from asking race, because your nation works hard to prevent discrimination. Good point...

I think we should pass a resolution that bans discernment of race/ethnicity. You shouldn't be classified by race for any job application, college application, and so on. I believe the only times race classification should be used is medical studies and if a criminal is on the loose. Though their might be a few others that I have left out.

Using race, is simply stupid, it should have nothing to do with applying to jobs or colleges. If test results or other studies are released race or ethnicity shouldn't be asked. It has no bearing on anything. Medical research is aloud, because certian groups of people are more sceptibal(sp?) to a certian sickness and so forth, but why should race or ethnic questions be asked for a job or anything. Race doesn't have an effect on how smart you are or if you would do a job better. If anybody out there agrees, or agrees with parts of this, please reply and maybe we can create a resolution?

I am all for preventing discrimination and so forth, and race should not be used as guides as jobs, degrees and so forth.

But as for asking questions about it - that is a different matter. What if someone is trying to show there is discrimination, or trying to track the way education is handled for various races/species (Note - would this apply to different species too? Although in my nation that it perhaps moot as you can easily tell the difference between an elf, a dwarf and a human!).

This idea has merit, and I would be happy to hear further thoughts you might have on the topic.

You present a great point and thats what I am trying to get from people, but sometimes the discrimination could happen before a person is seen for a job interview, they could be turned down simply of race, and samething with college and be turned away by just looking at a document. I guess it could apply to other spieces.

I am glad that you guys are putting an input, because I am trying to get a general impression on what people think. I hate when some people make resolutions, without even getting an idea from anybody else.

You present a great point and thats what I am trying to get from people, but sometimes the discrimination could happen before a person is seen for a job interview, they could be turned down simply of race, and samething with college and be turned away by just looking at a document. I guess it could apply to other spieces.

I am glad that you guys are putting an input, because I am trying to get a general impression on what people think. I hate when some people make resolutions, without even getting an idea from anybody else.

So discrimination, not information then? I mean that you want to stop racial discrimination, rather than gathering information based on race and ethnicity?

I am all for such a proposal, but - as with most things - would like to see the exact text of such a proposal before I could commit my support to it. Not because I believe you would twist anything you have written - I honestly don't think you would - but because as people have found out in the past the devil is in the details, and it's possible a slightly misworded phrase could end up going somewhere you don't want it to.

Also there is a possibility that some of the other resolutions already passed by the UN might do what you are suggesting, so may I suggest you look at them before you expend too much effort on writing a new one? (Just to save you time and effort mostly - there is nothing more annoying than spending hours writing a proposal only to discover it duplicates something already passed!)

Unfortunately in Domnonia we have a dark history with regards to the native population. After centuries of exclusion and attempts at cultural genocide, our nation has finally began making progress in raising the socioeconomic status of Domini natives to par with the rest of our population. To this end, it is most important that our government actively promote affirmative action and equal opportunity hiring practices in Domnonian business'. All government institutions in Domnonia are required by law to keep a ethnic staff ratio equal to that in whatever county that instution resides, and business who do the same receive tax benefits.

However, we will dwell on this issue and return with our thoughts shortly.

Tilenca- Yes I agree I know people will twist it, but it is important to have words that can be set in stone, and thats the problem I am having is writing the exact words, thats why I need the peoples help of the UN.
Domnonia- I hope your people can come together of all races and understand what your country has gone through, and I thank you for saying you'll dwell on it in the future.

I don't know if I want to go through with this, but I need Point of Views from many people, I guess I'll wait and see.

Throw something together and post it here. Don't submit for a few days at minimum, and try to incorporate the best suggestons that still match your intent into the proposal. Post drafts as you make changes.

Making a proposal is hard work, Wrigleyivy. You know what you think you want to say, so you have to be the one to kick it off. We don't really see the point or the need for such a proposal, but we won't know for sure until we see one. In the meantime, do your best to put one together. The fact that you're here asking is the best sign that you've got a shot at making it work.

thanks for the words, I don't know if its necisarry, by either later tonite or tomorrow I will have submitted a first draft. Thanks.

While the majority of the citizens of Adam Island are tolerant of other ethnicities, (we only have one intelligent race in my nation- homo sapiens) we respect the right of the ignorant morons to discriminate in their private racist organizations and religions, based on the Freedom of Association and Freedom of Speech that we hold so dearly.

If you're going to try to address issues of actual discrimination as TilEnca said, then I'd be very interested in whatever you can produce, so do post it here for us to see before submission.

EDIT: although we, like Adams Island, treasure freedom of peace and freedom of association, so we would prefer action on the side of equal opportunity than suppression of racism.

What about actors, models, ect.? They do need to be picked taking race into account so asking them shouldn't really be a problem. Even if you are really talented you can't act another skin colour.

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

What about actors, models, ect.? They do need to be picked taking race into account so asking them shouldn't really be a problem. Even if you are really talented you can't act another skin colour.

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

I wouldn't see that as discrimination - at least for the actor side of thing. Models - you can't really discriminate on skin colour or race for that, because it is somewhat wrong.

But for the actor side of things - that is not discrimination. In my mind discriminating based on race, but on a requirement of the job. For example you would not say that someone who has no skills or ability as a firefighter would be discriminated against if he didn't get a job as a firefighter. So if you are casting for Othello then you would be looking to cast someone who is black. And if you are casting for the lead in Gone With The Wind you would be looking for a white woman, not a black man.

Anyways....

This is just to get my idea across, I will need help making it more 'offical'
Human Rights

Ban Racial and Ethnic Discernment in Documents

Discerning one by race or ethnicity shall not be classified in the following:
Job Applications
College Applications
Housing Applications
and other Applications
Scholarships
Non-Medical Studies
Polls
ID Cards

The Following Exceptions will be made:
Medical Studies
At Large Criminals that need to be found
Performence Roles, where a specific race is needed.

I know this is written out horribly, but I am attempting to get my idea across. Any help will be greatly be appreciated.

This is just to get my idea across, I will need help making it more 'offical'
Human Rights

Ban Racial and Ethnic Discernment in Documents

Discerning one by race or ethnicity shall not be classified in the following:
Job Applications
College Applications
Housing Applications
and other Applications
Scholarships
Non-Medical Studies
Polls
ID Cards

The Following Exceptions will be made:
Medical Studies
At Large Criminals that need to be found
Performence Roles, where a specific race is needed.

I know this is written out horribly, but I am attempting to get my idea across. Any help will be greatly be appreciated.


Before you read this, I would just like to make clear I am not on staff, and not an expert in the ways of the UN. This is just advice based on guesswork.

If you give a complete list in either case, then anyone who is against the proposal will find something missing from the list and cite it as a reason to not vote or support the proposal.

And if you don't give a list then the same people will ask you why, and find examples to cite against you.

But - don't despair just yet. You could cite some examples, and put "this list is not exhaustive" - so that people get the idea of what (in this case) race and species can and can't be used for. Whatever list you put in, I suspect you will miss something out, simply because you didn't think anyone would think of it. But if you indicate the general idea of what falls in to which list (and I have a fair idea from the way you described it) then it should halt a few of the problems that people might have with the proposal.

I applaud Proestonia's efforts and agree that measures be taken to reduce discrimination.

However, we must consider that there is more to race than legal definition. Race is also a heritage, the history of an ancient people. Many people are proud to be attributed to a certain race and would gladly be identified with it in spite of any discrimination being done toward them.

We must consider this issue very carefully before bringing it to vote.

I applaud Proestonia's efforts and agree that measures be taken to reduce discrimination.

However, we must consider that there is more to race than legal definition. Race is also a heritage, the history of an ancient people. Many people are proud to be attributed to a certain race and would gladly be identified with it in spite of any discrimination being done toward them.

We must consider this issue very carefully before bringing it to vote.

I realise I am about to launch in to a very, very contraversial area, but I have to disagree with you.

If you have someone who - say - is descended from the dwarves of TilEnca, but due to some fluke of nature, looks human they would be treated as human at first sight, and would suffer any prejudices that people might have about humans. Or someone who looks white, but is actually black (it can happen, as dumb as it sounds) then they would be viewed as white, and maybe not so much a target of racism.

I know there is a lot more to race than what someone looks like, or what they have on their birth certificate, but that is mostly what people will look at when they are judging someone's fitness for a job and so on. Not a lot of interviews go back through someone's entire history when giving them an interview.

Thanks TilEnca. I'll try to think of this. You think I should narrow it down?

Sanity and Reason- You present a very good point.

I don't know if I want to present a proposal yet, I want to see where the UN stands and if they might think this has an attempt to work.

Thanks TilEnca. I'll try to think of this. You think I should narrow it down?

Sanity and Reason- You present a very good point.

I don't know if I want to present a proposal yet, I want to see where the UN stands and if they might think this has an attempt to work.

Honestly? I think if in the case of both lists you just add the words "examples of this type are....". This would indicate that it is not a complete list, but it should give an idea of the spirit of what you intend, rather than the exact wording.

Haiti thinks all non-Wahhabiist arabs should be immediately executed, discrimination or not.

Any document, form, application, may not ask questions related to the following: race, ethnicity, speices, and religon. This will give a person equall oppurtiunity without being discriminated by racism, etc.

This also prevents people releasing information such things as Test Results: Example If Group A: Gets 85% on a certian Test Group B: Gets a 60%, this can prevent sterotypes such as "that group of people are idiots."

Exceptions include Medical Studies, this exception is taking, because some speices are more susceptible to a certian disease and this would be needed for medical research.

Identifying At Large Criminals of course a general description is needed to be able to find that criminal.

If a certian art is needed and a paticular character being portrayed of a certian speices/race, then for reality it may be used.

I hope this makes it slightly clearer.

anybody else out there.

"Any document, form, application, may not ask questions related to the following: race, ethnicity, speices, and religon. This will give a person equall oppurtiunity without being discriminated by racism, etc."

This is a great idea for government policy and one my government has already implemented and hope that other governments will as well, but I just can't ban my private citizens from asking species or religion on a form. If a racist group doesn't want to let dark-skinned people join their club, that's horrible, but that's their right. If a temple doesn't want to let non-Buddhists enter their inner sanctums, that's their right. If someone wants to market their products to only humans and not giant ant-people, its their right to ask customers to check what race they are.

This is just to get my idea across, I will need help making it more 'offical'
Human Rights

Ban Racial and Ethnic Discernment in Documents

Discerning one by race or ethnicity shall not be classified in the following:

Polls

The Following Exceptions will be made:
Medical Studies
At Large Criminals that need to be found
Performence Roles, where a specific race is needed.

I know this is written out horribly, but I am attempting to get my idea across. Any help will be greatly be appreciated.


You included polls in your ban list, but medical studies as an exception.

For those of us that have affirmative action or other social justice programs, racially profiled surveys (perhaps performance roles as you've suggested) and polls are a way to get feedback on the success of these programs.

Mikitivity and Adam Island make good points. I have to say that while I sympathise with the cause of anti-racism, I don't think this is the right way to go about it. We should be concentrating less on asking about race, which is of itself not racist, and more on discrimination. Why not work on a resolution insisting that businesses offer equal opportunity of employment and pay to employees and prospective employers regardless of race/religion, except in artforms where a character of a particular race must be used, and as part of govt.-sanctioned affirmative action programs.

Is this meant to include national censuses? Specific information gathered in censuses (at least in Australia) is kept confidential for at least 100 years, and only the general information released for public consumption.

These censuses, I believe, have a legitimate role in asking about ethnicity, as they can, and are intended to, show trends over time.

The Jingoistic States of Carolindrin would like to say: agreed. :fluffle:

While Arach-Tinilth, the governing body of Spider Queen Lolth, agrees mostly to this proposal, it must be said that the nation of Spider Queen Lolth is a harsh one to outsiders simply due to the geography involved. As our nation is located BELOW the others in our region, below the surface of the Region of Japan, and our people, being Drow Elves, possess the ability to see in the infra-red but also are affected by dramatic photosensitivity, very few other races find the nation hospitable, and very few races have the abilities required to successfully hold a job or even live in our inhospitable land.

While Arach-Tinilth, the governing body of Spider Queen Lolth, agrees mostly to this proposal, it must be said that the nation of Spider Queen Lolth is a harsh one to outsiders simply due to the geography involved. As our nation is located BELOW the others in our region, below the surface of the Region of Japan, and our people, being Drow Elves, possess the ability to see in the infra-red but also are affected by dramatic photosensitivity, very few other races find the nation hospitable, and very few races have the abilities required to successfully hold a job or even live in our inhospitable land.

But (and stay with me here, because this is a complicated train of thought) you are not discriminating against people who apply for jobs because of who they are. You are saying they probably won't get the job because they can't perform a specific function of it. (For example if the entire race of GeminiLand was genetically tone-deaf, they probably would not be able to get jobs in an orchestra, but that would be because they are tone-deaf, not because they are from GeminiLand. Anyone else who was tone-deaf, from all nations, would be rejected as well).

As long as you are basing the inability to get/hold the job on a physical thing, rather than a subjective or emotional thing I don't get the problem.

There is no evidence that elves are stupider than dwarves, so rejecting an elf on the grounds he is stupid, without testing for this, would be bad. But elves are - generally - taller than dwarves, and if someone doesn't meet the height requirement, or the shortness requirement (eg for working in small enclosed spaces) then I can see an arguement for not employing them, without being discriminatory.

Or is it just me?

Yes, that IS what I am saying. However, I am also stating that there are people out there who would find such a statement to be against this proposed resolution.

Hang on, is it just me being confused, or is this proposal banning asking people's race, not unequal opportunity of employment?

OOC
Using race, is simply stupid, it should have nothing to do with applying to jobs or colleges. If test results or other studies are released race or ethnicity shouldn't be asked. It has no bearing on anything.
It depends on how much our NationStates mirror real world societies.

In the real world, our ability to recognize different physical, cultural or personal attributes can't be turned off. To survive, living things develop mechanisms for judgment. But it can be a double-edged sword. While an individual might find her environment inoffensive, past experience, education, upbringing, custom, or political trends might tell her otherwise. To use a crude example, sometimes in nature documentaries about predatory animals, the camera will show a pack of zebras grazing 10 feet away from a lioness, and then 5 minutes later, it shows the lioness hunting the zebra for prey. It might be suggested that the zebra just stay away from the lioness. But instead, the zebra fashions a complex response for a complex situation. 'I see the lion sitting there, but that's the best grass for 20 miles. Yes, of course the lion could try to eat me, but right now she's just feeding her babies.'

Now I'll give you another example. Interviewer X might see applicant Y and see that she belongs to group Z. Knowing very well that the UN said he isn't supposed to take that into consideration, he proceeds with the interview. He notices that she talks with a heavy droll, drawing out all her vowels. He thinks, 'some of our customers may have a hard time understanding her . . . but that's just how they talk where she comes from, so it wouldn’t be right to reject her for that. And, hey, maybe we'll just ask her to pick up the pace a little bit.' He notices she wears her hair real short. He thinks, 'she's kinda cute, but guys in the office might think that's weird her being bald and all. They might start trouble. But I can't say no to her just because they're jerks. Maybe we’ll just ask her to grow it out a little. But wait, I’ve never seen a Z chick with hair. Can they grow any?' He can't help but notice a faint whiff of that special sauce they use on that sandwich he loves to get over in Z town. 'She must have one in her bag . . . no, wait a minute, is that her!? Man, if I hire her, everybody's gonna say she's makin the place smell like a fast food joint.' He decides to move on to the typing test. She fails horribly. He thinks, 'man, she sucks. But they don't really get taught this stuff in Z town schools. Maybe we can just send her to a few quick classes before she starts.' Long story short, dude ends up hiring her all the while knowing that her wierdnesses, while distracting, can all be traced back to her being part of this group. And the law says you’re not supposed to take her group status into account. But of course, when she starts the job, all his worst fears come true. Customers constantly call to complain that they can't understand her on the phone. She files a harassment suit 'cause the dudes in sales won't lay off with the bald jokes. She makes no friends 'cause no one can stand the smell. And after all those classes she's still 50 wpm behind the other reps. But did he make the right decision? Maybe not. Or maybe he was just trying to do what the law says he should.

You see what I mean? It's not a simple issue. And it's unfortunate that some -- well-placed politicians amongst them -- act as if it were. The most effective way to deal with it is case-by-case. However, in large organized groups, case-by-case resolution becomes more difficult. This is part of the reasoning behind the current US solution, for instance. While you can't regulate people's feelings, you can regulate their actions. The ratio system is an attempt to neutralize the situation. It's a system that says, in a large city, given a pool of diverse applicants with degrees from accredited universities, there's no reason why a group comprising 40% of the area's population should constitute 2% of a major company's staff. Without access to those numbers, organizations couldn't hope to fix the problem. As with any system, there are holes. Alternative systems, if they're truly attempts at securing justice, must address all the complexity of the situation. Otherwise, 40 years from now, we'll be having the same discussion.