NationStates Jolt Archive

I would say this is getting out of hand. These proposals continue to fail to gain support from enough nations to be voted upon. It is an ever-increasing tedious task to sort through all of the "repeal..." proposals. I respectfully request those nations that continue to lay these proposals down to accept that they do not meet popular consensus and please stop. Thank you.

Most if not all UN Resolutions take multiple submissions in order to reach the floor, why should people give up on repeals after only one try?

Have you taken a look at the number of repeal proposals that are on the floor? Have you noticed that there are often nearly-duplicate proposals? I have no opposition to one giving the proposal process another try, but this is getting ridiculous.

I, respectively, ask you not to limit our right to submit whatever proposals are deemed legal by NS rules.

Well, I partially agree... when perusing the other day and encoutering (and yes I counted) 13 identical repeals across 12 pages of proposals, an additional 5 identical repeals, and 3 other identical repeals. Duplicate Repeals should be deleted for the stupidity of their authors.... It is pointless to have 13 identical repeals up for proposal.

Well, I partially agree... when perusing the other day and encoutering (and yes I counted) 13 identical repeals across 12 pages of proposals, an additional 5 identical repeals, and 3 other identical repeals. Duplicate Repeals should be deleted for the stupidity of their authors.... It is pointless to have 13 identical repeals up for proposal.

But what if there were two proposals up for a vote that covered more or less the same thing? Two proposals to limit the amount of TV a child could watch, for examlpe. They are worded differently but they amount to the same thing.

Would you think it is ethical for the UN staff to pick and chose which on is deleted?

I admit thirteen repeal proposals is a tad over the top, and maybe the authors should talk to each other and try to make one big proposal - but if the UN staff can't delete proposals then they should not be permitted to delete the repeals. Otherwise the whole future of the UN will be in the hands of the UN staff, which is not so much democracy.

(Please note - I am not having a go at the UN staff and their independence - just commenting)

Part of this can be reduced to the phenomena of seeing a new function in the UN. Ie. "Oh, new button, I wonder what *this* does? Submits repeal proposal for the first resolution and then decides to figure out how the new system works.

I too am shamefully guilty of this.

IMO, a slight change of interface (if this is feasible) to make a few more clicks where you have to read the process first will reduce the occurence of idiocy such as mine. :)

Besides, it's 7:00am, it's Saturday, and I'm stuck at work on 4 hours of sleep, so I can reasonably claim to have an excuse, right? :)


g.e.
Spokesdude for TFPotJW

No, I'd say Peaonusahl has a very good point. Refer to this thread by Hack again...
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=362679

I agree. People should look to see what's already been proposed, not just propose everything that comes to mind, especially when nearly every post is about Repeal Fight the Axis of Evil. Instead of proposing so many times, why don't people just vote on the ones already proposed.

No, I'd say Peaonusahl has a very good point.

Wouldn't a repeal of repeals be a game mechanics proposal, anyway, and as such invalid?

But what if there were two proposals up for a vote that covered more or less the same thing? Two proposals to limit the amount of TV a child could watch, for examlpe. They are worded differently but they amount to the same thing.

Would you think it is ethical for the UN staff to pick and chose which on is deleted?

I admit thirteen repeal proposals is a tad over the top, and maybe the authors should talk to each other and try to make one big proposal - but if the UN staff can't delete proposals then they should not be permitted to delete the repeals. Otherwise the whole future of the UN will be in the hands of the UN staff, which is not so much democracy.

(Please note - I am not having a go at the UN staff and their independence - just commenting)

Actually I think the same should standard should be given, or at the most allow for 2 or 3 similar proposals at a time. And I would say precedent should be given to ones already on the list. It's also unlikely to have 13 identical proposals, except they be repeals. The problem, overall, is the people doing repeals are even paying attention to what is already being proposed. By deleting, you could at least force these people into operating with common sense, seeing one already exists, and as opposed to presenting yet another, advocate support for the existing one... that way all the 13 people who want to repeal proposal X can pool their resources, and stand a better chance of actaully reaching quorum.

I agree. People should look to see what's already been proposed, not just propose everything that comes to mind, especially when nearly every post is about Repeal Fight the Axis of Evil. Instead of proposing so many times, why don't people just vote on the ones already proposed.


The problem is that it's too tedious to scroll through all the proposals to check if there are similar ones. I know this is not a question of gameplay, but it would be easier if:

1. You could call up a list of Proposal names, so you could scan them quicker (thus also allowing delegates to ignore the badly named, and in all probability badly written, proposals, and making life easier for them also).

2. If you want to repeal a resolution, and a repeal proposal is already on the floor, then the game shouldn't allow you to submit another one, but merely add your argument to the existing one (but maybe the adding your argument bit isn't such a good idea because it would probably turn into a forum thread if you allowed that).

The problem is that it's too tedious to scroll through all the proposals to check if there are similar ones. I know this is not a question of gameplay, but it would be easier if:

1. You could call up a list of Proposal names, so you could scan them quicker (thus also allowing delegates to ignore the badly named, and in all probability badly written, proposals, and making life easier for them also).


So it's hard. It's still the polite thing to do. And there is a search.

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

Yeah, it's fucking hard if you've got an unreliable dial-up connection. Fact: websites that are easier to use are better websites.

Also, you have to accept that some people are quite lazy and/or don't take this game too seriously because it's just a bit of fun and they have their own lives to lead, so don't want to spend hours scrolling through all the bollocks proposals to see if someone's proposed a crap version of theirs. You can't just exclude them because they have a life.

It is hard and time consuming to get a proposal past the draft stage. It is time consuming to check the list. It is time consuming and downright annoying to email delegates for support but that is what we have to do to get a proposal passed.

It's a game, it can't be too easy but no one needs to do any of this. If your stuck for time you could always ask for help from your supporters. Many nations will be happy to push a thoughtful well written proposal through.

Good luck.

Giordano,
UN representative,
The Black New World

Wouldn't a repeal of repeals be a game mechanics proposal, anyway, and as such invalid?
I believe the title was facetious, or did I miss him mentioning that he would actually like to repeal a repeal? ;)

I think he just meant the same thing Hack did. It's too much, and people just aren't interested in looking through the proposal list to see that there's already 18 versions of the repeal they want to propose.

I believe the title was facetious, or did I miss him mentioning that he would actually like to repeal a repeal?

IIRC, there was a "Repeal the Repeals" proposal in the queue, because I reported it a few days prior.

And there is a search.

To be fair, the search facility is not particularly well-suited to the current situation - when I've tried to use it to find repeals, it can only bring up one (and all repeals of one resolution have the same name), and it doesn't respond to author searches. So you do have to wade through the entire list.

The title of this thread was, indeed, intended to be facetious.

The title of this thread was, indeed, intended to be facetious.

Then, why was there a proposal submitted with your exact same title? That's my point.

When I started in as a UN Delegate, I took to the job of going through the proposal queue with a will - even with relish. I enjoyed seeing what people had come up with. Now...I dread it. I check about half as often, sometimes just in the nick of time before missing some proposals entirely?

The reason? I am Sick Unto Death of going through eleventy bazillion identical repeals.

I'm about this far [ ] from resigning my delegacy because I have come to a point where it is simply Not Fun Anymore to slog through it all and continue to play this game.

The idea of retaining duplicate repeal proposals on the basis of different reasons is ludicrous. The reason for repeal is not an operative clause of the document. It does not accurately represent the "sense of the General Assembly" for everyone who votes for it - and those who vote against it will not do so solely because it's the wrong reason. IMHO the far more sensible course is to allow one repeal proposal at a time, delete duplicates, and let people post reasons - or not if they choose! - in the Forum.

Then, why was there a proposal submitted with your exact same title? That's my point.
Yeah, I nuked that sucker pretty quickly.

Personally, I would be happy if people proposing repeals knew what the word 'repeal' means.

No, I'm not kidding. I've deleted "repeals" where the reason for the repeal was them talking about how much they liked the original. Of course, my personal favorite was when someone just quoted the original proposal.

Sigh.

Personally, I would be happy if people proposing repeals knew what the word 'repeal' means.

I totally agree with you Hack; that was the point behind me submitting a lengthy Repeal Fight the Axis of Evil resolution if not to actually repeal the previous resolution but to actually show people some sort of standard of repeal proposals.

Then, why was there a proposal submitted with your exact same title? That's my point.

I have no idea. I never saw the proposal. Perhaps it was someone equally frustrated with the ridiculous number of uninspired and unimaginative duplicate repeal proposals that exist.

I definitely understand and share your feelings on this subject, Jovianica. It's becoming less of an enjoyable pastime and more of a complete waste of time.

No, I'd say Peaonusahl has a very good point. Refer to this thread by Hack again...
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=362679

I actually also agree that duplicate repeals (and the quality of many repeals) are not in the UN's best interest.

Now that my nation has re-evalulated some of its activities, my office should now have more free time to help coordinate in what I hope could be a sincere approach to a seasonable appeal. The problem however, is in finding a resolution that my government really feels should be repealed.

The first Required Basic Healthcare actually is the resolution that I feel technically should be repealed using this new process. Are there are nations interested in this?

I'm about this far [ ] from resigning my delegacy because I have come to a point where it is simply Not Fun Anymore to slog through it all and continue to play this game.


:(

My government would urge the nation of Jovianica to not resign its position as UN Delegate, as maintaining an active presence here and actively reviewing the proposal queue is something my government feels is a benecial activity.

I'd suggest that instead of slogging through the entire queue, focusing just on the proposals about to expire.

You could also ask to be added on the IDU call lists, which my region is freely sharing with all.

Bottomline, though I agree with your opinion that the proposal queue is a chore to review, I think we can work together.

I'm sure I'm not the first to mention it, but it would be wonderful if there were such a thing as a spell-check for the new proposals. That's probably unrealistic. However, it might be beneficial if those who propose legislation were to type it out on a word processor first.

I actually also agree that duplicate repeals (and the quality of many repeals) are not in the UN's best interest.

It's unfortunate, too, because I worked hard on my repeal as a point and it gets lost in the melee of repeals that are poorly worded; perhaps, some form of standard or rules can be enforced in what constitutes a proper repeal and what doesn't.

It's unfortunate, too, because I worked hard on my repeal as a point and it gets lost in the melee of repeals that are poorly worded; perhaps, some form of standard or rules can be enforced in what constitutes a proper repeal and what doesn't.

Repeals are currently governered by the same standards that our proposals are. Cog was originally deleting duplicates and I believe some of the poorly worded arguments, but the moderation team did meet and decided that they are not responsible for quality control alone.

We have to step up, and provide some leadership.

Your repeal was good, but even good resolutions don't reach the queue on their first try, nor do they get large votes in favour.

My advice is to enlist the help of nations and regions that you consider allies. You did the right thing in asking the North Pacific for help, but unfortunately the North Pacific had some computer / delegate related issues last weekend. :(

I'll obviously try to get the IDU to help out, but we're a very small region. I'd be happy to talk to the West Pacific, the East Pacific, and ACA, as I really enjoy the nations in these regions as well. Beyond these groups, I really don't have any other resources that aren't also included in the IDU boards.

Do keep in mind that players that vote based on game stats, might actually *like* the first resolution. They might feel that international security is important.


I'm sure I'm not the first to mention it, but it would be wonderful if there were such a thing as a spell-check for the new proposals.

Oh, I wish nations would use spell-checkers first as well. But I also wish nations would also think about the formatting of their proposals first too.

Basically it is always a good idea to run things through a word processor first and save the file. You never know when you'll need the copies.

With my last resolution, I kept copies of most of the draft versions either in MS Word or on my regional board.

I'd offer you a beer, Mikitivity, but I'm fresh out!

I'd offer you a beer, Mikitivity, but I'm fresh out!

You had given my proposal your endorsement, which is worth a few pitchers. ;)

Dilberteria has proposed repealing every resolution so far, using the following reason...

This is not an issue that should be handled by this body, but should be handled by each individual nation with their own laws and constituance.

...or words to that effect. Someone tell this idiot to stop spamming the proposals page!

Uggh, I wish they'd AT LEAST look up words in the dictionary. "Constituance" is not a word I'm familiar with in the english language. Perhaps they meant "constituents".

I'm tempted now to scan every proposal and send a friendly letter to each nation. I'll remind them, if they want to be taken seriously they need to double check their spelling and grammar. I'll leave the content up to the other delegates and moderators.

Dilberteria has proposed repealing every resolution so far, using the following reason...



...or words to that effect. Someone tell this idiot to stop spamming the proposals page!

Actually, I encourage you to start collecting screen captures of this, because you do have a fair point. Once we can honestly show that an individual really is just trying to repeal everything, we can then flag this to the moderators attention.

Actually, I encourage you to start collecting screen captures of this, because you do have a fair point. Once we can honestly show that an individual really is just trying to repeal everything, we can then flag this to the moderators attention.

The moderation staff do not exist screenshot evidence of grievances, because the evidence can be altered in such programs as Photoshop. I've already filed a Getting Help report on the above situation.

Enough is enough!!!!

When you start to have 21 pages worth of UN proposals to search through it is getting ridiculous. These so called "repeals" are becoming an epidemic and a plague. I think it is about time the Modertation staff take a stance and put a stop to all these repeals.

When you start to have 21 pages worth of UN proposals to search through it is getting ridiculous. Yup, and I regularly search through it, deleting proposals that break the rules.

These so called "repeals" That implies that they aren't repeals, and are merely termed such. They are, indeed, repeals; regardless of quality.

I think it is about time the Modertation staff take a stance and put a stop to all these repeals.I can't change code, and neither [violet] nor Max feel a need to change things.


Once we can honestly show that an individual really is just trying to repeal everything, we can then flag this to the moderators attention.Nope. I saw it. Went past all of them. They were legal repeals. They were stupid, but legal.

Nope. I saw it. Went past all of them. They were legal repeals. They were stupid, but legal.

Yeah, I checked them out too, and though there were several consecutive pages, he did change his message a few times. For what it is worth, thanks and I think you made the right call.

But the situation is frustrating.

Indeed. I think the argument here is not necessarily against legality, but stupidity. The new repeal option makes the game more interesting, but it does open up the opportunity for those who would submit poorly constructed (aka "stupid") proposals. I thank the moderators for their untiring patience when it comes to reading through many of these juvenile repeal proposals. Their patience is, without a doubt, far greater than mine.

The new repeal option makes the game more interesting, but it does open up the opportunity for those who would submit poorly constructed (aka "stupid") proposals.
Actually the opportunity was already open, now they just have two avenues with which to do it, they can either propose new "stupid" proposals, or try to repeal past proposals for stupid reasons.

Might I point out, quality repeals are starting to find there way to the list now. Just be patient, the fad will die, and life will resume in the UN proposal list.

Yeah, I checked them out too, and though there were several consecutive pages, he did change his message a few times. For what it is worth, thanks and I think you made the right call.

But the situation is frustrating.

Actually, seems they were deleted after all as spam.

Meh, I can see either argument, really.

Actually, seems they were deleted after all as spam.

Meh, I can see either argument, really.

It certainly is a grey area.

Hmmm, since proposals to repeal resolutions are still new, perhaps we should add to the list of "bad submissions" spamming.

For months I was under the impression that a nation could only have two proposals in the queue at a time. There is no such rule, but I'm subtlely suggesting that if the queue continues to have players submit several pages of proposed resolutions and/or motions to repeal a resolution, there might be UN player support for a high limit. (Something that would make your job and UN Delegate's job easier. Policing it would be on the same grounds as this decision.)