NationStates Jolt Archive

Read, post opinion, approve:

SETI Program
A resolution to improve world security by boosting police and military budgets.


Category: International Security Strength: Strong Proposed by: Nerrethans
Description: SETI Stands for Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. It will help to search out new worlds and give us more information about other cultures beyond our solar system that we may come in contact with.

This will bind all UN Nations together and boost Military budgets. The military will be in charge of the project. Once the data is collected and the more we know about outside forces the more we will be able to increase security from possible attacks from, well, ET's.

This project will also take us deeper into the scientific aspect of our world and hopefully will be able to tell us more about the planet we live in. The information that the Project collects will no doubt give us more information and help us build stronger Satellites to reach farther into the stars and this will most likely reach into other scientific areas as well.

Approvals: 12 (Cornflake Gremlins, Farflorin, Chort, YouBetIAm, Darkmb, Tuesday Heights, Nobrainia, Angry Reptiles, Michael 02, Doomedland, Magouirk, Coolet)

Status: Lacking Support (requires 124 more approvals)

Voting Ends: Wed Sep 15 2004


SO who else will approve this idea???

The idea of putting something so potentially amazing as discovering a new species of life into the hands of the military is abhorrent. SETI programs have always been in the hands of civilians or scientific organizations, with the goal of advancing the human encyclopedia of knowledge. I believe that assigning the military to this goal will result in an inefficient use of property, a perversion of the ideals of SETI-esque programs, and cause much animosity between the academic and defense communities.

In short, wrong category.

Read, post opinion, approve:

SETI Program
A resolution to improve world security by boosting police and military budgets.

Category: International Security
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Nerrethans

Description:
SETI Stands for Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. It will help to search out new worlds and give us more information about other cultures beyond our solar system that we may come in contact with.

This will bind all UN Nations together and boost space sciences related budgets (which for the purposes of NationStates is considered to be included in military budgets). The military will be in charge of the project. Once the data is collected and the more we know about outside forces the more we will be able to increase security from possible attacks from, well, ET's.

This project will also take us deeper into the scientific aspect of our world and hopefully will be able to tell us more about the planet we live in. The information that the Project collects will no doubt give us more information and help us build stronger Satellites to reach farther into the stars and this will most likely reach into other scientific areas as well.

Approvals: 12 (Cornflake Gremlins, Farflorin, Chort, YouBetIAm, Darkmb, Tuesday Heights, Nobrainia, Angry Reptiles, Michael 02, Doomedland, Magouirk, Coolet)

Status: Lacking Support (requires 124 more approvals)
Voting Ends: Wed Sep 15 2004


SO who else will approve this idea???

First, thank you for posting your text along with this proposal! :)

Second, I got nailed with my Tracking Near Earth Objects proposal, as a number of nations had the concern of my category choice. The moderators suggested I choose "International Security" on the grounds that NationStates doesn't have a separate space sciences funding area. But you may want to make the changes I've suggested above, red is a suggested change, smaller font is material I think you may want to drop or replace.

Was it in August or July that we were discussing UN-SETI? Though a number of the nations from back then are long since gone (as in the ones that were among the most vocal opponents to such a measure). I'd rather we revisit that idea again.

Thanks for the advice.

I knew that there was a problem because there was not a very specific area to put this topic under. It woudl be nice to see a scientific Catergory.


How did the other UN-SETI thing do before? I'm mildly new to the game but I do knwo my way around.

There were actually two threads that I can remember, this is the one that I was participating in.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=342083

If you find some of the material there useful, you might want to telegram _Myopia_ (I hope I spelled that right) and see if you two can merge your ideas.

Feel free to borrow ideas from previous UN resolutions that involved space, such as the UN Space Consortium and Tracking Near Earth Objects resolutions. You might be able to look to the Scientific Freedom resolution from 2002.

Errr.... how about Free Trade?

Of all the choices, that would be the closest, as an increase in exchange of scientific data would cause an increase in technology and equipment exchange, which would be Free Trade? This proposal does act as a pro-business venture, as it will have a positive influence on construction, Information Technologies, Book Publishing (information has to be recorded and transported to less advanced cultures... and all the tabloids get to their rumormongering...) etc.

There's also the arguement "well, if we FIND another planet, and they have spaceflight, couldn't we trade with them?"

Ok, it's stretching - but what other category fits?

I will vote for this if it gets qued.

What about a SEBI program?


SEBI Program
A resolution to improve world security by boosting police and military budgets.

Category: International Security
Strength: Mild
Proposed by:

Description:
SEBI Stands for Search for Earth Bound Intelligence. For long, Earth has remained a barren and desolate place, full of mindless zombie creatures, who mindlessly go about their petty little lives, hoarding meaningless objects.

This program will allow the searching out of intelligent life amongst the many lifeforms on earth, to see if any actually do possess any intelligence.

What about a SEBI program?

SEBI Program
A resolution to improve world security by boosting police and military budgets.

Category: International Security
Strength: Mild
Proposed by:

Description:
SEBI Stands for Search for Earth Bound Intelligence. For long, Earth has remained a barren and desolate place, full of mindless zombie creatures, who mindlessly go about their petty little lives, hoarding meaningless objects.

This program will allow the searching out of intelligent life amongst the many lifeforms on earth, to see if any actually do possess any intelligence.



I just so double dog dare you to submit that one as written. :p :p :p :D

I just so double dog dare you to submit that one as written. :p :p :p :D
If he does, begods, I'll approve it!

I've been working on a SETI proposal for some time now. It was originally mooted by me in late July, as you can see in that thread linked above, it was put on hold. I would like to say that I still intend to submit - I sent it to Cogitation to ask about categorisation, and was told that it doesn't fit in any category. He said hold it until the mods get around to looking at revamping the categories, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't jump in with your own SETI proposal at least until this problem is sorted out.

As Sophista said, the concept of putting this kind of thing in the hands of the military is abhorrent.

Here is an up-to-date copy of my own proposal:

UNOSETI

Category: Pending moderator action

HOPEFUL that extraterrestrial civilisations of a non-aggressive nature do exist,

INSPIRED by the concept of making contact and cooperating with such civilisations,

RECOGNISING that the chances of making contact are vastly increased if an active effort is made to detect transmissions from such civilisations and to send transmissions of our own,

RECOGNISING that global co-ordination of radio telescopes, data processors and other relevant resources would make such a search more efficient,

NOTING that all Earth-bound nations stand to gain from contact with friendly extraterrestrial civilisations,

DEEMING such an effort a worthwhile cause,

BELIEVING that such an important event as the discovery of, or establishment of contact with, an alien civilisation should not be kept from public knowledge;

REALISING that extraterrestrial civilisations with which we make contact might have aggressive intentions towards Earth,

RECOGNISING that at their current level of technological advancement, Earth-bound nations (which make up the majority of the UN) could not hope to repel an invasion attempt by aggressive extraterrestrials with technology sufficient to launch an effective offensive across interstellar space,

REMEMBERING the amusing trickery which diverted the annihilation of the human race by a superior alien menace in the Isaac Asimov story "Victory Unintentional",

The United Nations,

1) ESTABLISHES the United Nations-Organised Search For Extraterrestrial Intelligence (UNOSETI);
2) DECLARES that the aim of UNOSETI shall be to establish contact and promote friendly relations and cultural and scientific intercourse with extraterrestrial civilisations;
3) RESOLVES that UNOSETI shall also request the help of experts in various relevant fields such as xenobiology to formulate the best methods of finding communications from and addressing any extraterrestrial civilisation in order that the aims set out in clause 2 may be fulfilled
4) URGES UN member nations to donate what resources they can to UNOSETI, including money, scientific equipment and scientific expertise;
5) WELCOMES any contribution to UNOSETI made by private individuals and organisations, and by non-UN member nations;
6) URGES pre-existing efforts of a similar nature to either be assimilated into UNOSETI or to cooperate with it;
7) REQUIRES that all UN member governments and all of their agencies, as well as UNSETI itself, inform the rest of the world if they discover empirical evidence of the existence of, or make contact with, one or more extraterrestrial civilisation(s);
8) URGES that all efforts at contact promote cooperation between civilisations;
9) RESOLVES that Earth-bound UN members will do their utmost to defend the people of Earth if the planet is attacked by an extraterrestrial civilisation;
10) RECOMMENDS that against any significantly superior aggressive alien forces, a strategy of deception is adopted, in which we attempt to portray ourselves as better equipped to defend ourselves than we really are.

I would like to say that I still intend to submit - I sent it to Cogitation to ask about categorisation, and was told that it doesn't fit in any category. He said hold it until the mods get around to looking at revamping the categories, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't jump in with your own SETI proposal at least until this problem is sorted out.


First, mind if we hammer away at your text?

Second, they are revamping the categories? Interesting! Are you sure they are still doing this though, because my Global Disaster Assistance proposal was tabled (hopefully to return) pending a few things. First, Cog seemed to think it was a Social Justice proposal (I disagree). Second, he also seemed to think it was a multi-category proposal (guess what -- I didn't like to hear that, so naturally I disagreed). Third, he thinks part of it might be a Moral Decency issue ... I'm fine with that (shocking isn't it). ;) But new categories might help me out as well.

Please, go ahead and offer all the constructive criticism you like, but we may want to resurrect the old thread and post in there (somebody linked it above) instead of taking over Nerrethans'.

As to the categories, Cog said he was bringing up the idea of adding more with the other mods and admins. However, he also made it clear that there was no guarantee that it would come to fruition, and that it definitely would not be a quick process.

Please, go ahead and offer all the constructive criticism you like, but we may want to resurrect the old thread and post in there (somebody linked it above) instead of taking over Nerrethans'.


NO, I don't mind. I'm all for a SETI resolution if it is better than mine. Share your ideas in this thread and collaberate ideas so that something like this can be presented and passed.

Provided that all military references are struck from the proposal, that participation is fully voluntary and that the strength of the proposal is Mild, Ecopoeia will support UNSETI.

Varia Yefremova
Speaker to the UN

Please, go ahead and offer all the constructive criticism you like, but we may want to resurrect the old thread and post in there (somebody linked it above) instead of taking over Nerrethans'.

As to the categories, Cog said he was bringing up the idea of adding more with the other mods and admins. However, he also made it clear that there was no guarantee that it would come to fruition, and that it definitely would not be a quick process.

OOC: Curious ... was this from IRC or another forum? The reason I ask is I do *not* have strong ties with the moderators and often feel left out of the decision making process.

OOC:It was just through TGs between Cog and I.

IC: Ecopoeia, I believe my text fulfils your criteria.

NO, I don't mind. I'm all for a SETI resolution if it is better than mine. Share your ideas in this thread and collaberate ideas so that something like this can be presented and passed.

Well I appreciate that you're prepared to work together on this. I think the first thing to do is to hold off on submitting anything further until Cog gets back to me regarding the category. As to merging ideas, I see a couple of points from your proposal which might be good to incorporate into my pre-existing text as preambulatory clauses, if you don't mind:

RECOGNISING that prior knowledge of aggressive extraterrestrial civilisations would improve Earth's chances of resisting any attack

and:

HOPEFUL that a scientific endeavour such as the search for extraterrestrial life will yield scientific knowledge that could also bring benefits in more immediately practical fields

What does anyone think of adding these in to the text I posted on page 1 of the thread?

I think once Cog gets back to me, it would be good to start a brand new thread to promote whatever text we have by that stage.

HOPEFUL that a scientific endeavour such as the search for extraterrestrial life will yield scientific knowledge that could also bring benefits in more immediately practical fields


I like this one.

But I'm not so sure the following should be left in place:


9) RESOLVES that Earth-bound UN members will do their utmost to defend the people of Earth if the planet is attacked by an extraterrestrial civilisation;

10) RECOMMENDS that against any significantly superior aggressive alien forces, a strategy of deception is adopted, in which we attempt to portray ourselves as better equipped to defend ourselves than we really are.


UN resolutions are a matter of public record. An alien race would probably have access to this resolution and even if they are not hostile, I would view something like this with a bit of mistrust.

I think clause 9 is needed to satisfy certain voters, and is a principle that i don't think many of us would have a problem with.

I don't think it's as big a deal as you make out, for these reasons:

1) They might well see it as a perfectly sensible precaution. As an imperfect example, are you offended that _Myopia_ has resolved it would defend itself if invaded by another nation?
2) If you're worried about broadacsts regarding the resolutions reaching their planets before we had a chance to address them directly and set our stance straight, I'd say 3 things - that without a specific attempt by us to aid translation/interpretation, I doubt they'd understand the text, that if they can interpret our TV etc. broadcasts Hollywood has probably already done enough damage in terms of making us look suspicious of aliens, and that most of the proposal is alien-friendly (so our good intentions should be clear).

I see that clause 10 might be slightly more offensive to them if they could understand it, and I'm not desperately attached to it, but I don't think it needs to be dropped, on the basis of the same reasoning as above.

UN resolutions are a matter of public record. An alien race would probably have access to this resolution and even if they are not hostile, I would view something like this with a bit of mistrust.
Yeah, you're too late. We know of several nations, both UN and non, that have been broadcasting NS weaknesses and vulnerabilities into space for years now. Looking for allies, just for kicks ... I couldn't say.

... And they've secretly replaced your coffee with new Dilithium Crystals.

Well reasoned, I withdrawl my objections to clause 9.

There is enough in the proposal that you've won my vote. I'm not incredibly thrilled about the UN publically discussing a possible plan that includes deception, but at the same time my objection is certainly not enough that I would not vote for and support this proposal.

I would be interested in hearing the views of the UN Space Consortium (http://invisionfree.com/forums/Texas/index.php?showforum=45) members on this issue as well.

If you'd like, I could take the present draft to that group and just ask for their opinions. I wouldn't feel comfortable answering specific questions.

Or maybe you or Nerrethans should do this.

That said, part of the reason I raised objections to clause 10 was you may remember that my government and Cheney-Land co-authored the "Peaceful Uses on Outer Space" proposal:


The NationStates United Nations,

Recognizing the common interest of all mankind in the exploration and use of outer space for peaceful purposes,

Reaffirming the will of all States that the exploration and use of outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall be for peaceful purposes and shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interest of all countries, irrespective of their degree of economic or scientific development,

Recalling its previous resolutions on this issue, UN Space Consortium, adopted Feb. 29, 2004, and Tracking Near Earth Objects, adopted Jul. 5, 2004,

Recognizing that prevention of an arms race in outer space would avert a grave danger for international peace and security,

Emphasizing the paramount importance of strict compliance with existing arms limitation and disarmament agreements relevant to outer space, including bilateral agreements, and with the existing legal regime concerning the use of outer space,

Emphasizing the mutually complementary nature of bilateral and multilateral efforts in the field of preventing an arms race in outer space, and hoping that concrete results will emerge from those efforts as soon as possible,

1. Reaffirms the importance and urgency of preventing an arms race in outer space and the readiness of all States to contribute to that common objective;

2. Calls upon all States, in particular those with existing major space capabilities, to contribute actively to the objective of the peaceful use of outer space and of the prevention of an arms race in outer space and to refrain from actions contrary to that objective and to the relevant existing treaties in the interest of maintaining international peace and security and promoting international cooperation; and

3. Recognizes the growing convergence of views on the elaboration of measures designed to strengthen transparency, confidence and security in the peaceful uses of outer space.


Cheney-Land will submit it this next time and I think the two of us will be able to see it reach resolution status since it collected over 100 endorsements with minor telegramming on the part of Cheney-Land (he does this as part of his normal Delegate duties).

I see a SETI proposal as being peaceful and very much support the idea. And my nation is all about preparing for disasters. I just hope that we can see both ideas reach the UN floor. :)

Did you know that one of the SETI monitors actually picked up a blip? Well, they did. They're not sure what it is, but it keeps showing up. Aliens? Maybe. Who knows? I guess we'll just have to find out. :eek:

The Commonwealth of Sakharov Island supports this proposal. We feel that nothing but good can come from actively seeking out extraterrestrial life. If this issue reaches the UN Floor, we will be petitioning our regional delegates to vote in favour.

Well reasoned, I withdrawl my objections to clause 9.

There is enough in the proposal that you've won my vote. I'm not incredibly thrilled about the UN publically discussing a possible plan that includes deception, but at the same time my objection is certainly not enough that I would not vote for and support this proposal.

I would be interested in hearing the views of the UN Space Consortium (http://invisionfree.com/forums/Texas/index.php?showforum=45) members on this issue as well.

If you'd like, I could take the present draft to that group and just ask for their opinions. I wouldn't feel comfortable answering specific questions.

Or maybe you or Nerrethans should do this.

That said, part of the reason I raised objections to clause 10 was you may remember that my government and Cheney-Land co-authored the "Peaceful Uses on Outer Space" proposal:



Cheney-Land will submit it this next time and I think the two of us will be able to see it reach resolution status since it collected over 100 endorsements with minor telegramming on the part of Cheney-Land (he does this as part of his normal Delegate duties).

I see a SETI proposal as being peaceful and very much support the idea. And my nation is all about preparing for disasters. I just hope that we can see both ideas reach the UN floor. :)

I'd be happy for you to take my latest draft to that forum (maybe queries could be directed here?), but can you wait just a little bit? I've noticed a couple of errors that need ironing out - I have to leave in a minute and will hopefully be able to post a corrected version for you to use in a few hours.

I think clause 10 and it's corresponding preambulatory clause (the one referencing Asimov) may have to be dropped anyway due to the RL reference. Plus you're right, it doesn't seem quite right. I think I'll probably drop it, as clause 9 covers our defence needs, and really it was only originally put in as a (bad) joke because of the Asimov story.

Thanks for your support!

Im new but eh, we need to pass a new resolution...some proposals are close to being passed...and it would be nice to see a new resolution passed.

No rush.

I just think we need to start working *with* the groups that form after resolutions, because they'll have experience to help us in our political discussions here.

And no worries about an Asimov reference. He was a brilliant author.

yes I agree that Isaac Asimov was a brilliant author, but of course that is not the point of tis discussion. :rolleyes:

Ok here's the corrected version - Mik, you can take this to the other boards if you like. I've replaced clause 10 and the asimov reference with an addition to clause 9 about jointly devising and implementing strategy, corrected some spelling and format grammar, and added in the clauses inspired by Nerrethan's text.

UNOSETI

Category: No idea whatsoever

HOPEFUL that extraterrestrial civilisations of a non-aggressive nature do exist,

INSPIRED by the concept of making contact and cooperating with such civilisations,

RECOGNISING that the chances of making contact are vastly increased if an active effort is made to detect transmissions from such civilisations and to send transmissions of our own,

RECOGNISING that global co-ordination of radio telescopes, data processors and other relevant resources would make such a search more efficient,

NOTING that all Earth-bound nations stand to gain from contact with friendly extraterrestrial civilisations,

HOPEFUL that a scientific endeavour such as the search for extraterrestrial life will yield scientific knowledge that could also bring benefits in more immediately practical fields,

DEEMING such an effort a worthwhile cause,

BELIEVING that such an important event as the discovery of, or establishment of contact with, an alien civilisation should not be kept from public knowledge,

REALISING that extraterrestrial civilisations with which we make contact might have aggressive intentions towards Earth,

RECOGNISING that prior knowledge of aggressive extraterrestrial civilisations would improve Earth's chances of resisting any attack,

The United Nations,

1) ESTABLISHES the United Nations-Organised Search For Extraterrestrial Intelligence (UNOSETI);
2) DECLARES that the aim of UNOSETI shall be to establish contact and promote friendly relations and cultural and scientific intercourse with extraterrestrial civilisations;
3) RESOLVES that UNOSETI shall also request the help of experts in various relevant fields such as xenobiology to formulate the best methods of finding communications from and addressing any extraterrestrial civilisation in order that the aims set out in clause 2 may be fulfilled;
4) URGES UN member nations to donate what resources they deem reasonable to UNOSETI, including money, scientific equipment and scientific expertise;
5) WELCOMES any contribution to UNOSETI made by private individuals and organisations, and by non-UN member nations;
6) URGES pre-existing efforts of a similar nature to either be assimilated into UNOSETI or to cooperate with it;
7) REQUIRES that all UN member governments and all of their agencies, as well as UNOSETI itself, inform the rest of the world if they discover empirical evidence of the existence of, or make contact with, one or more extraterrestrial civilisation(s);
8) URGES that all efforts at contact promote cooperation between civilisations;
9) RESOLVES that Earth-bound UN members will do their utmost to work together to devise and put into practice an effective strategy to defend the people of Earth if the planet is attacked by members of an extraterrestrial civilisation.

So is this the final draft or are we still editing it?

All comments are welcome until I submit the text, which won't be unless/until they sort out the new categories and Cog makes a ruling on the appropriate category. If they don't add categories in NS1, I might save up the text for NS2.