NationStates Jolt Archive

UNSETI

Category: No idea whatsoever :confused:

HOPEFUL that extraterrestrial civilisations of a non-aggressive nature do exist,

INSPIRED by the concept of making contact and cooperating with such civilisations,

RECOGNISING that the chances of making contact are vastly increased if an active effort is made to detect transmissions from such civilisations and to send transmissions of our own,

RECOGNISING that global co-ordination of radio telescopes, data processors and other relevant resources would make such a search more efficient,

NOTING that all Earth-bound nations stand to gain from contact with friendly extraterrestrial civilisations,

DEEMING such an effort a worthwhile cause,

BELIEVING that such an important event as the discovery of or establishment of contact with an alien civilisation should not be kept from public knowledge;

REALISING that extraterrestrial civilisations with which we make contact might have aggressive intentions towards Earth,

RECOGNISING that at their current level of technological advancement, Earth-bound nations (which make up the majority of the UN) could not hope to repel an invasion attempt by aggressive extraterrestrials with technology sufficient to launch an effective offensive across interstellar space,

REMEMBERING the amusing trickery which diverted the annihilation of the human race by a superior alien menace in the Isaac Asimov story "Victory Unintentional",

The United Nations,

1) ESTABLISHES the United Nations Search For Extraterrestrial Intelligence (UNSETI);
2) DECLARES that the aim of UNSETI shall be to establish contact and promote friendly relations and cultural and scientific intercourse with extraterrestrial civilisations;
3) URGES UN member nations and to donate what resources they can to UNSETI, including money, scientific equipment and scientific expertise;
4) WELCOMES any contribution to UNSETI made by private individuals and organisations;
4) URGES pre-existing efforts of a similar nature to either be assimilated into UNSETI or to cooperate with it;
5) REQUIRES that all UN member governments and all of their agencies, as well as UNSETI itself, inform the rest of the world if they discover empirical evidence of the existence of, or make contact with, one or more extraterrestrial civilisation(s);
6) URGES that all efforts at contact promote cooperation between civilisations;
7) RESOLVES that Earth-bound UN members will do their utmost to defend the people of Earth if the planet is attacked by an extraterrestrial civilisation;
8) RECOMMENDS that against any significantly superior aggressive alien forces, a strategy of deception is adopted, in which we attempt to portray ourselves as better equipped to defend ourselves than we really are.

This is based on some ideas I raised in the "Global Space Defense Proposal" thread. For now, it's just here for you all to look at and criticise - I won't be submitting it for a few weeks since i'm going away for a couple of days and will be cut off from NS.

I would like to know if I'm allowed the final preambulatory clause, or if I have to cut it since it's a reference to the real world.

Another idea to put in just occured to me. This would probably be a third operative clause:

"RESOLVES that UNSETI shall also request the help of experts in various relevant fields such as xenobiology to formulate the best methods of addressing any extraterrestrial civilisation in order that the aims set out in clause 2 may be fulfilled"

If the clause your worried by is the "REMEMBERING" one regarding the "Victory Unintentional" tale, I would say two things,

1) Being fiction, it could be assumed to exist in N.S. universe with ease I suppose ... plus, its only supporting material, so its effect is minimal, it is simply an minor example as to what you want to do ...

( Lacking words ... I need sleep ;) )

2) I would have to conclude it would come down to Moderator personal opinion, maybe check with Cog about it.

Hope thats of some minor help, oh, and nice proposal, I'll give it a good scan in the morning for you. Still, as standing, very nice work.

* The Rep of Komokom runs " find-bed.exe " :)

(oc) the name should be more like "UN SETI" otherwize it will seem like a proposal to stop SETI... Also, it should be more like, fund direction and agreement instead of a international organisation, because IIRC organisations are a no-no...

(oc) the name should be more like "UN SETI" otherwize it will seem like a proposal to stop SETI... Also, it should be more like, fund direction and agreement instead of a international organisation, because IIRC organisations are a no-no...

That's more than just an issue with this proposal. If you have a Usefully Structured Acronym Bearing Legible Essence, it becomes unusable once the UN take hold of it, while a Sentence Of Pronouncable Harmonics In Saying The Initial Characters (Albeit Through Eccentric Design) may sound Ok in isolation, but then ends up being unsophisticated.

Looks pretty good. I'd put in a clause about fair treatment of extraterrestrials if contacted, just to keep them from going hostile.

This is based on some ideas I raised in the "Global Space Defense Proposal" thread. For now, it's just here for you all to look at and criticise - I won't be submitting it for a few weeks since i'm going away for a couple of days and will be cut off from NS.

I would like to know if I'm allowed the final preambulatory clause, or if I have to cut it since it's a reference to the real world.

OOC:
ROTFL!

OK, you've drafted a serious resolution / proposal, but that last clause is a perfect example of how humour *can* be injected into NationStates.

I say run it by a mod, but you've got my blessing! :) I'd love to see something like this in the list of resolutions that passed.

IC:
Consider naming the organization: UN-SETI or UNPSETI (United Nations Programme for Searching for ExtraTerrestial Intelligence) or UNSETL (United Nations Search for ExtraTerrestial Life). Because the suggestion that you don't want to sound like UNSETI may be good for votes. Though I can see the proposal getting strong support.

Ok:

(oc) the name should be more like "UN SETI" otherwize it will seem like a proposal to stop SETI... Also, it should be more like, fund direction and agreement instead of a international organisation, because IIRC organisations are a no-no...

The name will now be UNOSETI United Nations-Organised Search for ExtraTerrestrial Life - that ok? I don't know what you mean by the second part ("IIRC"?) but if you're woried about game mechanics, I don't think that's an issue since this would simply be something we set up and leave - the mods wouldn't need to program in any capacity for us to involve ourselves in its working.

E B Guvegrra, I have no idea what you're talking about, unless you're simply making a joke with the acronyms USABLE and SOPHISTCATED.

Looks pretty good. I'd put in a clause about fair treatment of extraterrestrials if contacted, just to keep them from going hostile.

I think this would be sufficiently covered by clauses 2 and 6 which encourage general friendliness.

Mikitivity and Komokom, thanks :)

Any suggestions for category?

I'm going away tomorrow so this will be put on hold until around 17/8. Feel free to post on here with further comments or suggestions (but don't fill up too many pages for me to read!), and when I get back, I'll work on improvements, running it by a mod, and submitting it.

Oh, and while I'm gone, nobody steal my idea :mad:

:mad: :headbang: :mad: :headbang: Jolt won't let me rename the thread to reflect the proposal's status!!

The idea is proposteros, for several reasons. First of all, as I explained to the Global Defence Proposal, EXTRA-TERRESTRIALS ARE MADE-UP STORIES THAT HAVE BECOME POPLAR, AND TAKEN TOO SERIOUSLY OVER THE AGES. The day the government actually believes in fables that overimaginative civilians have conjured is a sad one. And, assuming there were aliens, what insanity would drive you to think that we are unprepared. People want to believe that aliens have far superior technology, because it makes a good movie. The government cannot be so gullible. If we are ever invaded by anything outside of Earth, we have enough atom-destroying radiation-producing weapons of mass destruction to take care of it, not to mention an enourmous air force and missle stockpile from the Cold War. Finally, such a project would be too expensive when our primary concern should be global welfare.

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya

OK, Vorozinya. That's...um...nice.

It's always comforting to know Nationstates is a hit in the mental ward.

Personally I find this a fascinating idea and pretty well executed. I think it could gain enough support to go to vote. Category is a good question. One I don't know the answer to.

Good Luck.

I cannot believe this... there is no proof of extraterrestrial life, all extraterrestrial sightings have been explained with dozens of rational ideas.

What makes you believe that, there is even any extraterrestrial life out there? It would be astounding if we found it, but it is more likely we will find a way to live forever, or end world piece than to find characters from imaginative stories actually alive.

Even if there were extraterrestrial life forms, why would it be any of our concern? We have never interfered with any extraterrestrial life, why would they launch an offensive?

Nations who believe in this idea have to understand that it would be an interesting thing if this was established, but we simply can't have all the nice things we want. We have to prioritize. Right now, instead of funding the creation of a UNSETI, we should focus on finding new forms of energy, or advancing medical technology. We simply can't have all the things we think would be "nice".

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya

The honourable representative from Voroziniya should note that there are benefits to a massive, coordinated astronomy project such as this. Radio telescopes can be used to, among other things, track the millions of pieces of "space junk" that litter our orbit, discover asteroids that might be headed in our direction, and discover new celestial bodies that are currently beyond the reach of existing detection.

All of these side-benefits are noteworthy causes within themselves, and to dismiss the project simply because you don't believe in the possiblity of alien life would be to forfeit an ever-growing list of benefits derived from this kind of proposal. I kindly ask the representative to rethink his position.

I cannot believe this... there is no proof of extraterrestrial life, all extraterrestrial sightings have been explained with dozens of rational ideas.

What is it with you and your assertions toward proof? I've seen at least (using fingers to count) two posts where you've tried to use your proof and moral reasoning as final...

Seems a trend.



What makes you believe that, there is even any extraterrestrial life out there? It would be astounding if we found it, but it is more likely we will find a way to live forever, or end world piece than to find characters from imaginative stories actually alive.

Well, if you believe in evolution, then there are plenty of reasons to believe in the possibility if ETI. If life could have evolvd on our planet then it makes sense that there is at least the possibility of life elsewhere.

If you believe on a more religious note, then the reasons to believe are simpy put religious.

Just because people believe in ETI or even the possibility of ETI doesn't mean that they're nuts looking for the next saucer.


Even if there were extraterrestrial life forms, why would it be any of our concern? We have never interfered with any extraterrestrial life, why would they launch an offensive?

I think the reason for the concern is pretty clearly stated in the proposal: prudence. If the UN beleives there to be ETI (which is decided when the proposal hits the gneeral assembly), then certainly it would like establish positive peaceful relations with an ETI found. This would require communication. This would be one of the things this proposal would strive for.


Nations who believe in this idea have to understand that it would be an interesting thing if this was established, but we simply can't have all the nice things we want. We have to prioritize. Right now, instead of funding the creation of a UNSETI, we should focus on finding new forms of energy, or advancing medical technology. We simply can't have all the things we think would be "nice".

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya
If you believe in ETI then you must accept how variable any ETI would be. We wouln't know if it's a friendly civilization, if we're going to become cogs in it's war machine or if it carries an extremely more potent form of smallpox, or whatever. The key is that it is an international security issue if there is ETI. I think that a matter which could spell the end of an entire planet would seem a slightly more critical than new forms of energy. It's like having a safety on your defense in football. Whiole it's important that you stop the offense close to the line of scrimmage, the critical thing is that they don't score. Is it more important that we find a new energy source, or that ewe make friends with an alien race that could wipe out the entire population? That is what the UN will have to decide.

There is an infinitessimally tiny possibility of extraterrestrial life. The idea of aliens did not come from observation of such phenomina, it came from stories told by civilians. People simply began to link the unexplained with these stories. Just because someone imagined aliens centuries ago did not necissarily trigger their undoubtable existance light years away.

To answer an earlier post, I do not necissarily think that the search for aliens in unimportant, but I think we have too many DIRECTLY, PROVEN, PRESENT-DAY issues to consider thinking about an indirect possibility of a future of knowledge that there are aliens out there. If we used it to find "space junk" or something that actually exists, i would still consider the investment a waste.

And I do believe in evolution over creation, but our planet evolved merely because of luck, chance almost as tiny as the relevance of possible aliens. In fact, the only reason we had the capacity to evolve (i know what im talking about, I learned this from my large family of doctors) was because the original cells received energy from another cell that was created by mistake, so really this tiny chance was taken twice and succeeded. The cell and this new cell that could create energy turned into one, and the new, smaller cell is called the mitochondrea. Before that, these cells didnt have the capacity to move, communicate, or efficiently reproduce, let alone evolve.

Then we have to take the chance that these aliens actually have evolved into intelligent life forms. Surely a mouse is a highly evolved organism, but it certainly cannot be considered intelligent.

Then we have to assume that they had the capacity to even be tracked by such a device that is being proposed, let alone actually visit earth before the Sun explodes.

Then we have to assume that they can actually harm, or help us.

If they can, we have to assume that their aid would actually be helpful to us in such a degree that it would pay off for our funding tiwards this highly expensive investement. If they mean to harm us, we have to assume that our thousands of missiles, WMDs, air force, and anti-air weapons do no damage whatsoever to them.

Then we have to assume that they can even do damage to us.

Upon reading this message your computer is more likely to explode randomly and kill you this instant than such an investment even mildly proving fruitful. Such chances are unimaginably low, and is not even worth the UNs attention.

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya

There is an infinitessimally tiny possibility of extraterrestrial life. The idea of aliens did not come from observation of such phenomina, it came from stories told by civilians. People simply began to link the unexplained with these stories. Just because someone imagined aliens centuries ago did not necissarily trigger their undoubtable existance light years away.


I refuse to respond to this. You seem to have it all figured out.


To answer an earlier post, I do not necissarily think that the search for aliens in unimportant, but I think we have too many DIRECTLY, PROVEN, PRESENT-DAY issues to consider thinking about an indirect possibility of a future of knowledge that there are aliens out there. If we used it to find "space junk" or something that actually exists, i would still consider the investment a waste.

And I do believe in evolution over creation, but our planet evolved merely because of luck, chance almost as tiny as the relevance of possible aliens. In fact, the only reason we had the capacity to evolve (i know what im talking about, I learned this from my large family of doctors) was because the original cells received energy from another cell that was created by mistake, so really this tiny chance was taken twice and succeeded. The cell and this new cell that could create energy turned into one, and the new, smaller cell is called the mitochondrea. Before that, these cells didnt have the capacity to move, communicate, or efficiently reproduce, let alone evolve.

Then we have to take the chance that these aliens actually have evolved into intelligent life forms. Surely a mouse is a highly evolved organism, but it certainly cannot be considered intelligent.

Then we have to assume that they had the capacity to even be tracked by such a device that is being proposed, let alone actually visit earth before the Sun explodes.

Then we have to assume that they can actually harm, or help us.

If they can, we have to assume that their aid would actually be helpful to us in such a degree that it would pay off for our funding tiwards this highly expensive investement. If they mean to harm us, we have to assume that our thousands of missiles, WMDs, air force, and anti-air weapons do no damage whatsoever to them.

Then we have to assume that they can even do damage to us.

Upon reading this message your computer is more likely to explode randomly and kill you this instant than such an investment even mildly proving fruitful. Such chances are unimaginably low, and is not even worth the UNs attention.

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya
Exactly! you see my point. This is a matter of how likely the UN believes it to be fruitful to search for ETI. I think there is enough evidence towards the possibility of ETI to pass this resolution. I believe this because of my history reading things by Carl Sagan. Other domestic issues are of importance. and should be taken care of. Should they be taken care of first? I don't think there is any reason these things can't be addressed at the same time.

What is it with you and your assertions toward proof? I've seen at least (using fingers to count) two posts where you've tried to use your proof and moral reasoning as final...

Seems a trend.


Well, my nation is guilty of the same mind set. My government simply prefers there to be some evidence of fact before supporting UN action.

That said, my nation feels that the search itself is benefical enough to warrant cooperation between governments interested in this program and supports global SETI projects.

Answer me question directly: You believe that the extreemely small chance, without supporting evidence, of ETI potentially aiding us, and in the process us nearly bankrupting the participants in designing a system, and drawing us further from global, international, and domestic issues take priority over the issues that are, every day, hurting the human race?

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya

"Answer *my* question..."

Since when was it decided that acting on more than one issue at a time was impossible? I mean, I've been around a while, and I don't remember any resolution stating that no more than one item of interntional importance may be solved by the UN at a time.

We fight AIDS while we fight hunger; we broaden environmental protections while we broaden civil rights; we seek to cure disease, and we seek extraterrestrial life. Surely we are not so blind as to assume that funding this program means giving all the money we have to a SETI effort? From what I understand, we're only being asked to coordinate our existing efforts, with the option of supporting it financially.

Would the representative from Voroziniya kindly explain how this will preclude his nation from solving other international problems?

Answer me question directly: You believe that the extreemely small chance, without supporting evidence, of ETI potentially aiding us, and in the process us nearly bankrupting the participants in designing a system, and drawing us further from global, international, and domestic issues take priority over the issues that are, every day, hurting the human race?

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya

What makes you think such a project will cost more than its short-term tangible benefits?

Are you at all familiar with scientific professional conferences? Typically medical doctors will spend a week in a city at a convention center, listening to lectures from other doctors. Though part of the point of these conferences is to learn about new advancements in medicine, a more lasting function of such conferences is to network and build connections.

When problems arise later, doctors can better refer their patients to their colleques (sp?) whom they met at these conferences.

I myself attended a conference on estuaries last October, and when the topic of ballast water cycling came up, I contacted people I met who were experts in the field and helped the Ballast Water resolution author rewrite his proposal. The proposal was accepted and passed.

The point of working together is to reduce costs, i.e. by not reinventing the wheel or in this case by sharing resources, and to build lasting scientific networks.

Though not directly related, I highly recommend you watch the film: The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951). It won the Golden Globe for "Best Film Promoting International Understanding".

The point of the film has absolutely nothing to do with this resolution, but it illustrates how people of science often work together in places were politicians will not.

Well, my nation is guilty of the same mind set. My government simply prefers there to be some evidence of fact before supporting UN action.

I fully understand that and know that there needs to be a solid foundation of evidence for UN actions. However, the point I was trying to get at was that Voroziniya seems to think that he can define evidence and fact and proof himself. That is just my observation. But that is what I meant by it.

I understand though do not fully agree with the objections to a UN-led body to address this. There are more pressing issues; however, it is worthy for us to look at not only securing the basics for all but also striving to realise our dreams and, yes, indulging in the more romantic pursuits, perhaps.

I take issue with one comment made by the delegate from Voroziniya:

"There is an infinitessimally tiny possibility of extraterrestrial life"

Untrue. There is a vanishingly small possibility that our generation will encounter intelligent extra-terrestrial life. To assume that we are statistically likely to be on the only planet in the univers that harbours life smacks of breath-taking arrogance and anthropocentrism.

Mathieu Vergniaud
Deputy Speaker to the UN

I dont believe there aren't extraterrestrials. I simply dont believe it is any of our concern.

If extraterrestrials were so interested in us they would have come sooner. We have had life on Earth for billions of years.

The chances that life even began on earth were small. If every other planet took those same chances--being the correct distance from the sun--having the right chemicals--being able to randomly produce cells TWICE--such cells able to live as one organism--are simply too small to pay any attention to.

The project's funds could easily be invested in things WORSE for our planet than a possible alien infestation.

Sophista, it is possible to focus on many issues, but crisises are solved QUICKER if there are less distractions.

And finally, about the movie, it could express something you want but it is still just a movie. Generally it is extremely difficult for doctors and scientists to acomplish something without the government's consent. It may have shown a stream of coincidences and storylines that made this possible, but a movie cannot change politics.

I am not saying this idea should never be attempted, I'm simply saying that our current issues must be solved as soon as possible. Then UNSETI can find its place among mch smaller issues.

I'm not a centrist, I just don't simply believe in aliens because I want to. Those who support the immediate construction of such a system WANT to believe that aliens are any of our concern, and it is human nature for our hopes and dreams to interfere with our judgement and rational balancing of chances. look at gambling... What is UNSETI if not an extremely large-scale, thinned chance, high pay-off gamble?

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya

Sophista, it is possible to focus on many issues, but crisises are solved QUICKER if there are less distractions.

Solved more quickly.

And that isn't always true. For example, you could hurl money at a world hunger problem all day long, but when push comes to shove there's only so much biomass that can be produced. We can start a thousand AIDS labs in every country, but that will only lead to an inefficient duplication of efforts, instead of concentrating it in four or five major research centers investigating the most promising methods.

Given that this program carries next to no cost unless your government chooses to (which it most clearly won't), we fail to see how any significant detraction from a major global improvement program will come about.

If extraterrestrials were so interested in us they would have come sooner. We have had life on Earth for billions of years.

It is possible that any species that could travel space and time, wouldn't want to contact our planet until such a time that they felt we had a mature and stable society. Right now that is far from the case, as this forum would demostrate.

It is equally possible that intelligence races may feel that first contact should be initiated by us.

In any event, I'd rather a group of nations make any first contact, than an individual.

It is possible that any species that could travel space and time, wouldn't want to contact our planet until such a time that they felt we had a mature and stable society. Right now that is far from the case, as this forum would demostrate.

It is equally possible that intelligence races may feel that first contact should be initiated by us.

In any event, I'd rather a group of nations make any first contact, than an individual.

And, bseides which, SETI is mainly about listening out for other intelligences, so that we know if there's anyone out there. The shouting of "We are here!" we normally leave to TV companies and all other licencees of the radio spectrum who pay us governments for the privalidge... :)

And, bseides which, SETI is mainly about listening out for other intelligences, so that we know if there's anyone out there. The shouting of "We are here!" we normally leave to TV companies and all other licencees of the radio spectrum who pay us governments for the privalidge... :)

Which leads to the next "question":
What was the first television broadcast? :)


Really more of a point to consider.

I AM HOPING that the SETI program will be established in the future, but the truth is investments in issues that, if are not solved as soon as humanly possible, will harm our planet, ARE DEMANDING MORE AND MORE FUNDS, funds that are more important, funds that are currently better put to healing then searching.

The SETI program must be established after:

A temporary or permanent new energy source
A temporary or permanent solution to the HIV/AIDS crisis
Temporary or permanent new, sustainable means of agriculture
Temporary or permanent safe, new means of handling, destroying, and/or dumping high-radiation waste from nuclear power plant facilities [Not currently as large an issue]

These projects still need more funds which, in turn, will speed up the research and find a solution quicker.

Then the UNSETI program will be among the list of smaller research projects and will receive its fair share of funding from participating nations.

The truth is that the UNSETI program is not something that must be established as quickly as possible. It is not something that, if left unattended for, say, the next century will do as much harm as the issues i previously mentioned. It is simply a search, for curiosity. I believe that our priorities must be organized and such smaller projects must be put on hold until our desparate issues are permanently or temporarily handled.

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya

And "quicker" is a real word, sophista...

The SETI program must be established after:

A temporary or permanent new energy source
A temporary or permanent solution to the HIV/AIDS crisis
Temporary or permanent new, sustainable means of agriculture
Temporary or permanent safe, new means of handling, destroying, and/or dumping high-radiation waste from nuclear power plant facilities [Not currently as large an issue]

These projects still need more funds which, in turn, will speed up the research and find a solution quicker.

The truth is that the UNSETI program is not something that must be established as quickly as possible. It is not something that, if left unattended for, say, the next century will do as much harm as the issues i previously mentioned. It is simply a search, for curiosity. I believe that our priorities must be organized and such smaller projects must be put on hold until our desparate issues are permanently or temporarily handled.

The United Socialist States of Voroziniya

First, I'd like to thank you for your mature and reasoned response. I wish others (whom don't have a freakn clue what some words like "imperialist" or "conservative" mean would follow your example.

Second, while I agree that issues like HIV/AIDS must be dealt with now (which is why I authored the previous resolution), these also are problems that can't be solved until there is a political will to do so.

If I saw an easy and quick solution to the sexual transmission of HIV/AIDS, beyond advocating safer sex, I think my nation's international track record on moving these issues through the UN and quickly would convince you all that I would have already done so.

Some issues need to be discussed over and over again, before we can really make progress. I've also advocated in the past, that my government does not like "close" votes on issues. They create tension and I think the undermine the strength of actions.

There is a way to temper long-term and short-term priorities. If a project that needs immediate attention can't get enough support, other projects like SETI could be given a "MILD" resolution strength and a suggestive tone.

Unlike what some nation keeps accusing me of, my resolutions have really by in large focused not on domination, but rather giving nations the "option" to do something. Take the Tracking Near Earth Objects resolution ... it *asked* nations to join, it didn't force them.

I am confident that a UN SETI program would also attempt to acknowledge that while it is an international interest to pursue such a program that we should realize it is a long-term project and that it shouldn't be the sole purpose of the UN. In fact, nobody has ever suggested this.

I urge you to change your stance on this issue. To acknowledge that while you are right that sustainable develop needs to be addressed, I don't see your nation working on a proposal. My nation can't right now not when it is being falsely accused of being an imperialist and a conservative and a communist at the same time!

The question remains, do we just sit idle until *somebody* makes a proposal to meet these other important issues? I don't think so.

What was the first television broadcast?


Really more of a point to consider.

Heh, assuming aliens don't speak German they should just see a shouting man with a stupid moustache :D.



Scientists at Mattikistan University believe there are aliens. However, the concept of aliens being argued to here is apparent from the Voroziniya representative's use of Earth as a model. Aliens, if they exist, are so unlikely to be life as we know it that I simply could not write down the odds due to the length of the decimal. Whenever the word 'alien' is mentioned, everyone instinctively pictures a small green man with big black eyes, that breathes in our atmosphere and is not crushed/made sick by our gravity. The likelihood of THIS, I will agree, is next to impossible.

However, simply because we need an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere, a specific temperature and level of gravity, it does not then mean that every form of life that could ever exist anywhere will need those exact same conditions to survive. For example, life could exist in the atmosphere of Jupiter. In fact, there are various species on the bottom of the ocean which can survive near those underwater volcanoes; totally inhospitable to us.

The point is, alien life is going to be just that; alien. You can safely remove all those sci-fi induced stereotypes from your minds now. It will resemble life on Earth so little in fact that we may not even recognise it as life. If they are intelligent, they will almost certainly have completely different thought processes than us, and may not have the same concepts; such as morality, emotion (as we know it anyway), or even vocal communication.

And it is their totally alien nature which presents a problem, according to the scientists anyway. Although they believe life in various completely different forms exists far more commonly than we would like to think, possibly even elsewhere in this solar system without our realising it, the chance of them being intelligent, or at least, on the same 'wavelength' as us in terms of how they 'tick', is very low. Possibly as low if not lower than the chance of finding anything remotely similar in biological makeup to life on Earth. And it only gets worse. The chance of intelligent life actually receiving our transmissions, or sending any we could receive, is even lower still. And the chance of being able to actually communicate with them once we've established contact, is so low that they've deemed it virtually impossible. Even if they use vocal communication, or even if they have ears or some other method of detecting vibrations such as sound, our languages will be so phenomenally different that one species may not even be able to mimic the other's sounds, let alone understand them.

And all this is assuming of course that any messages we send even get through. There are so many astronomical phenomenon which could distort or block our signals that even if they do get through, they may be garbled beyond hope. And the same goes for any transmissions which may have been sent our way.

And finally; if we can somehow overcome these impossible odds with our limited technology, we are presented with two problems. By the time our signal reaches a species which could help us, we could either be beyond help or simply not need it any more -- or even have advanced further than them. And those species who would want to attack us would be alerted of our existence and location, and we would essentially be inviting them to attack us.

I will follow the recommendation of the University on this one, and urge no further money be spent on essentially useless schemes such as this. For the side-benefits mentioned earlier, the existing systems can still be used. We see no reason to support this proposal when people are dying all around us from far more pressing problems.

Minister for Foreign Affairs
The Confederacy of Mattikistan

I would love to create a proposal, Mikitivity. I have had the issues that I mentioned in mind. However, sadly, I only have one endorsement.

My nation was only created days ago and my region is not heavily populated. Therefore until I get another endorsement I cannot take action.

I would love to create a proposal, Mikitivity. I have had the issues that I mentioned in mind. However, sadly, I only have one endorsement.

My nation was only created days ago and my region is not heavily populated. Therefore until I get another endorsement I cannot take action.

You can start working on a draft proposal then. :)

According to the rules people can not steal other people's proposals, so if you were to post a draft here, nobody could just take your draft as their own. And while it is a draft many of us (myself especially) would provide some feedback. Hopefully more constructive comments and none of the "This is imperialism! This is imperialism rubbish you see less respected nations resorting to."

I *do* feel that HIV/AIDS and sustainable development are two of the *hardest* issues to tackle and would love to see discussions begin. I know that the Xtraordinary Gentlemen is about to have a proposal that actually relates to sustainable development, but that nation is still ironing out the details.

As for not having enough endorsements, that is sadly the trouble of living in a non-feeder based region. I'd plug the region I'm currently in, but if memory serves more than a few nations have inappropriately labeled my government as being ultra-conservative, when I feel that the exact opposite is true, and I'd be wary of handing out an endorsement before I could get a feel for the nation in question. Afterall, that grammar resolution (even though a joke) wouldn't have gotten very far if its author didn't have the endorsements necessary to submit it.

If you look at the Needle Sharing Prevention resolution, I've dropped a reference to the UNAIDS most recent report. Use google and check through a few HIV/AIDS or sustainable development reports. I always read the executive summaries and then find one of the many implementation ideas that I personally like, and build a resolution around that.

On the subject of HIV/AIDS, I'd love to see the first HIV/AIDS resolution, which set aside a fund or something for blood banks, be extended into safer sex clinics. More than that, I think that the Women's Rights proposal ties into HIV/AIDS. I understand that most people don't like the proposal, but I think it is brilliant. When you read the UNAIDS report, you'll see that the HIV/AIDS problem in Africa has hit women the hardest: both young girls and older caretakers.

There are two topics for great UN resolutions that I've *not* yet publically named, and I'm kinda squatting on these ideas. If somebody beats me to the ideas, good for them. :) I'll support them 110%, but I will drop to vague hints:

1) The category for one of the ideas would most likely be in the Furtherment of Democracy category and was inspired by both real UN actions and a debate that lead to Congress removing part of its official floor records a week or two ago. Something really big in the world is coming, and if you visit the "General" forum, you may see what I'm talking about.

2) The category for the other idea is an Environmental resolution, but I'm gonna target the Automobile Industry, only because I worry about hitting "All Businesses" when reality is only certain ones should be tagged. My idea does deal with long-term impacts and the future of the planet, but I will say no more, because I'm *slowly* just reading web articles on the subject and want to do this topic justice.

Anyway, good luck and work on that draft. :)

What was the first television broadcast?

That's a tricky question. The first television broadcast was in 1926. John Logie Baird sent a moving picture from one room into another over conventional wires. The first television broadcast with a signal strong enough to reach into the heavens was the opening ceremony of the 1936 Olympic Games in Nazi Germany. Take that, trivia gods.

Ok, I'm back from holiday, so I'm getting this moving again. Thanks for all the support. Sorry if this is a little disjointed, my brain is still in the wrong time-zone.

Voroziniya, we don't actually know how likely it is that life can emerge on a planet. So far, we've done thorough searches of exactly one (1) planet, and our score for finding intelligent life is 100%. Even if it is vanishingly unlikely that carbon-based cellular lifeforms of the type we know would develop, there could be numerous other forms of life - when you consider this along with the vastness of space, and the sheer numbers of planets and stars, it seems ridiculous to say that the chances of extraterrestrial life are negligible.

In real life, Seth Shostak, the SETI Institute's senior astronomer, estimates there are between between 10,000 and 1 million radio transmitters in the galaxy and is suggesting a guess of contact within 20 years - http://www.spacedaily.com/news/seti-04e.html. Although his reasoning is heavily based on assumptions, they are commonly accepted ones. What we do know is that there are a lot of scientists who are better placed to judge than you or I and who are optimistic about our chances.

Yes, it would be a challenge to devise a method of communicating with another species, but not necessarily impossible. Anyway, even a simple sign of ETI, like a string of prime numbers, would perhaps be the most important and mindset-altering discovery in human history.

I think that with its emphasis on voluntary participation and on combining existing efforts rather than creating new ones, UNOSETI would not consume too many extra resources, and would certainly increase the efficiency of the SETI drive (don't forget, many nations are already devoting resources to such projects). In the end, I think we will always be facing one major problem or other (if not HIV/AIDS or sustainable energy sources, then something else), and whilst we shoulod course do our utmost to solve these, there must always be room for the service of curiosity, for two main reasons:

1 - the drive to know more, to explore and to push boundaries is one of the better defining parts of human nature. Even if we found nothing, the effort itself would not have been a complete waste. In fact, if it did appear likely that we were the sole torchbearers of intelligence in the universe, might that not give us a newfound determination to preserve humanity? Our mindset might become more pacifistic and more geared towards sustainability and the long-term?
2 - such efforts almost always yield immediately useful technological spinoffs - look at all the everyday stuff we got out of the space program which improves our standards of living. Couldn't UNOSETI yield better communications technology, more powerful and ingenious hardware and software for analysis, and knowledge about potentially suitable planets for future human colonisation? Not to mention the possibilities for sharing technologies if we did make contact.

Nobody? What I need is constructive criticism and suggestions for category for the following proposal:

UNOSETI

Category: No idea whatsoever

HOPEFUL that extraterrestrial civilisations of a non-aggressive nature do exist,

INSPIRED by the concept of making contact and cooperating with such civilisations,

RECOGNISING that the chances of making contact are vastly increased if an active effort is made to detect transmissions from such civilisations and to send transmissions of our own,

RECOGNISING that global co-ordination of radio telescopes, data processors and other relevant resources would make such a search more efficient,

NOTING that all Earth-bound nations stand to gain from contact with friendly extraterrestrial civilisations,

DEEMING such an effort a worthwhile cause,

BELIEVING that such an important event as the discovery of, or establishment of contact with, an alien civilisation should not be kept from public knowledge;

REALISING that extraterrestrial civilisations with which we make contact might have aggressive intentions towards Earth,

RECOGNISING that at their current level of technological advancement, Earth-bound nations (which make up the majority of the UN) could not hope to repel an invasion attempt by aggressive extraterrestrials with technology sufficient to launch an effective offensive across interstellar space,

REMEMBERING the amusing trickery which diverted the annihilation of the human race by a superior alien menace in the Isaac Asimov story "Victory Unintentional",

The United Nations,

1) ESTABLISHES the United Nations-Organised Search For Extraterrestrial Intelligence (UNOSETI);
2) DECLARES that the aim of UNOSETI shall be to establish contact and promote friendly relations and cultural and scientific intercourse with extraterrestrial civilisations;
3) RESOLVES that UNOSETI shall also request the help of experts in various relevant fields such as xenobiology to formulate the best methods of finding communications from and addressing any extraterrestrial civilisation in order that the aims set out in clause 2 may be fulfilled
4) URGES UN member nations to donate what resources they can to UNOSETI, including money, scientific equipment and scientific expertise;
5) WELCOMES any contribution to UNOSETI made by private individuals and organisations, and by non-UN member nations;
6) URGES pre-existing efforts of a similar nature to either be assimilated into UNOSETI or to cooperate with it;
7) REQUIRES that all UN member governments and all of their agencies, as well as UNSETI itself, inform the rest of the world if they discover empirical evidence of the existence of, or make contact with, one or more extraterrestrial civilisation(s);
8) URGES that all efforts at contact promote cooperation between civilisations;
9) RESOLVES that Earth-bound UN members will do their utmost to defend the people of Earth if the planet is attacked by an extraterrestrial civilisation;
10) RECOMMENDS that against any significantly superior aggressive alien forces, a strategy of deception is adopted, in which we attempt to portray ourselves as better equipped to defend ourselves than we really are.


Plus there could be an operative clause concerning how technologies devised by UNOSETI scientists are handled patent-wise, if anyone would care to suggest a sensible solution to the problem.

Nobody? What I need is constructive criticism and
suggestions for category for the following proposal:

UNOSETI

Category: No idea whatsoever

HOPEFUL that extraterrestrial civilisations of a non-aggressive nature do exist,

INSPIRED by the concept of making contact and cooperating with such
civilisations,

RECOGNISING that the chances of making contact are vastly increased if an
active effort is made to detect transmissions from such civilisations and to
send transmissions of our own,

RECOGNISING....
ETC...



Hmmmmmmmmmmm... My nation has some experience with this sort of thing.

We only "discovered" the rest of you nations very recently, and had many of
the same thoughts regarding cooperating and learning from the "advanced
civizations" out there.

We came to find that dealing with ANY "not-us" group was perfectly
equivalent to dealing with ANY "us" group,.. therefore, in hindsight,
any "expenditures" we might have made would have been utterly
unproductive.

I suggest, therefore, that while keeping an eye to the heavens might be fun
and "enlightening", the world's resources would be better spent figuring out
how to talk to each other, in preparation for that (hopefully FAR FAR off)
eventual meeting with the Zarquat-Zone Interstellar Water Harvester
representative.

(( D'OH,... I wasnt' supposed to give the NAME of the guy....! Sheesh.... ))


-Keiki'olu I'ake'oke'o
Current "Big-Diggah" and "Chief Head-Whompah"

"May prosperity and freedom from silly rules be your destiny..!"

Category: No idea whatsoever

2) DECLARES that the aim of UNOSETI shall be to establish contact and promote friendly relations and cultural and scientific intercourse with extraterrestrial civilisations;

3) RESOLVES that UNOSETI shall also request the help of experts in various relevant fields such as xenobiology to formulate the best methods of finding communications from and addressing any extraterrestrial civilisation in order that the aims set out in clause 2 may be fulfilled;

6) URGES pre-existing efforts of a similar nature to either be assimilated into UNOSETI or to cooperate with it;

7) REQUIRES that all UN member governments and all of their agencies, as well as UNSETI itself, inform the rest of the world if they discover empirical evidence of the existence of, or make contact with, one or more extraterrestrial civilisation(s);

8) URGES that all efforts at contact promote cooperation between civilisations;


A case could be made for the above clauses being "Free Trade". If you add your patent clause (and maybe remove the word deception), I think you'll have a stronger case for this. Note the red addition I made, a semi-colan was missing. :)

I'd advise that whatever category you make, you make the strength "Mild".

Nobody? What I need is constructive criticism and suggestions for category for the following proposal:

I'm sorry. I do like the fact that you've put some thought into the matter and drafted a largely serious proposal, but then I start thinking about the fact that we could stand to concentrate UN debate on problems that can be solved on our own planet before looking to the stars in hopes that some extra-terrestrial race will deliver a boon to all our problems, and I can't add my blessing to the proposal. SETI... eesh... I run SETI@Home but I'd never use UN to ask the governments of the world to install the software on every government-owned computer, ya know? Good luck with the proposal, really. At least you're taking the process seriously...

I run SETI@Home but I'd never use UN to ask the governments of the world to install the software on every government-owned computer, ya know? Good luck with the proposal, really. At least you're taking the process seriously...

Personally I like clauses 2, 3, 6, 7, and 8.

I think they *are* what the UN is about. Making statements to promote cooperation.

Would you reconsider your position if the proposal were trimmed to have a smaller scope?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm... My nation has some experience with this sort of thing.

We only "discovered" the rest of you nations very recently, and had many of
the same thoughts regarding cooperating and learning from the "advanced
civizations" out there.

We came to find that dealing with ANY "not-us" group was perfectly
equivalent to dealing with ANY "us" group,.. therefore, in hindsight,
any "expenditures" we might have made would have been utterly
unproductive.

I suggest, therefore, that while keeping an eye to the heavens might be fun
and "enlightening", the world's resources would be better spent figuring out
how to talk to each other, in preparation for that (hopefully FAR FAR off)
eventual meeting with the Zarquat-Zone Interstellar Water Harvester
representative.

(( D'OH,... I wasnt' supposed to give the NAME of the guy....! Sheesh.... ))


-Keiki'olu I'ake'oke'o
Current "Big-Diggah" and "Chief Head-Whompah"

"May prosperity and freedom from silly rules be your destiny..!"

As I said before - this doesn't require a massive effort, all it really does is say that the UN would like to streamline and co-ordinate various SETI efforts, because it feels that it's a noble cause. It doesn't preclude making solving immediate problems our priority.

Galdago, ditto. As to this:

I run SETI@Home but I'd never use UN to ask the governments of the world to install the software on every government-owned computer, ya know? Good luck with the proposal, really. At least you're taking the process seriously...

This doesn't ask for any unreasonable measures. It simply urges members to do what they can - i.e. what they feel is reasonable - to help out.

Thanks Mikitivity for your comments and support. I'm not sure why free trade would be appropriate - how is searching for extraterrestrial life supposed to make us all more capitalist? As to the patent clause, I really don't know what would be a sensible way of dealing with any inventions - I was just asking if anyone else had any good ideas. What would you suggest I say instead of deception?

BUMP

Which mod should I TG this to to ask about category and about whether the reference to real literature is ok?

Cogitation probably ... I'd pester Cogitation first regarding this, ;)

Ok thanks. I'll telegram it now.

Cogitation had this to say:

I don't think that your proposal fits in any category. I did have an idea, recently, for adding new UN proposal categories, but this requires an Admin to implement and got pushed to the back burner (so to speak). Hold this for a week or two and remind me again.

So it looks like this is on hold again. But it's good that they're thinking about new proposal categories.