NationStates Jolt Archive


The UN Situation

Thoughtsmiths
10-06-2004, 05:46
Fellow nations,

We address this to all of you, as the issue we present here affects us all. The NationStates UN (NSUN), as it stands now is in a state that we find unacceptable.

We bring this before you not as the grievance of a single nation wishing to whine over particulars regarding resolutions and rules of membership, but as one among MANY who have felt for a long time that the UN is fast becoming a threat to our sovereignty. A number which, I regret to inform you, is quickly growing.

In the past few days alone nearly thirty nations have contacted us to inform us of their own dismay with the UN as it stands now. Some have chosen to remain members as they see no other choice, and some have resigned their memberships.

Why, you may ask, do we Thoughtsmiths not simply resign our membership? Why not leave if we are unsatisfied, instead of posting to all of you with something that may not even concern some of you? We remain because only by remaining do we preserve our voice. Without a UN membership we do not have the liberty to address you. That, perhaps in and of itself, is sufficient cause for concern.

In the past, before joining this organization, we cautiously weighed whether or not to become a UN nation. Of what benefit was it to us? Our nation was certainly democratic, and had a long and proud history of public life and prosperity, as well as a flourishing cultural wealth. It seemed to us that to join the UN would at best maintain all that we had accomplished and were so proud of, and at worst would infringe on that which we cherished so dearly.

Ultimately, we were reminded of our responsibility as citizens of the world. It was not enough for us to ensure our own prosperity and self-actualization. It was not enough to stand in isolation, content to live in a self-sufficient state. We needed to establish contact with our fellow nations and become a part of the world forum so as to help bring about a better future: for ourselves, but ultimately for the generations to come.

Recently it has become clear that the UN has begun to infringe on the sovereignty of our nation. Resolutions passed are absolutely binding on all member nations, regardless of the histories and traditions that might have led to our individual bodies of law and constitutions. Understanding that no bureaucracy is perfect, in fact the very concept seems inherently flawed, we were willing to go along with limiting certain liberties we have become accustomed to, in the interests of serving a larger, global ideal. To be a citizen is to sacrifice some personal preferences for the betterment of all. This we accept.

What we cannot accept, and what we have just come to realize, is that in response to certain resolutions that may pass, we have no recourse. Resolutions aimed at repealing or ammending prior resolutions, are deemed unacceptable according to UN resolution writing rules, and may not be proposed. While the former part of this condition is certainly understandable, the latter is not.

This is startling to say the least, and quite dangerous indeed. That is to say that any resolution that is brought up for a vote before the Assembly, no matter how simplistic, will be decided by a majority vote and then become binding. No ammendments may be proposed. This violates the fundamental principles of Democracy and cannot be allowed to continue.

This among other issues do we present to all of you here and now. We offer this as a sample of what it is that we have noticed. No doubt many of you, and most certainly those of you who have already expressed your feelings to us, have similar issues in the forefront of your minds.

We encourage you to contact us directly, or post here for the benefit of all, or both, with your thoughts, concerns, and arguments. We seek not to have this be a one-sided issue, but the matters of concern here could no longer fall unaddressed.

It is time that these issues be discussed and the better aspects of our combined intellects be channelled to work toward something greater. And if the UN, during, or as a result of, this undertaking is to be reformed or replaced, then so be it. We will not allow events to continue down this path.

To resign is too simple an action to take; an action that forsakes all the potential that resides here among us. An action that would see us silenced.

We are the ones who must create the future we are to live in, and the time for action is now.
Whited Fields
10-06-2004, 05:57
I, the President of Whited Fields, have too felt that there are a growing number of proposals which do not reflect the best that the UN has to offer, or are infringements on the rights to sovreignty. As such, I have made a proposal to the administration asking that proposals not be passed unless there is a greater than a specific number of votes over the the defeated position.

Not knowing what number would be utimately fair, I chose a vote of 1000, meaning that resolutions passing must carry more than a 1000 vote margin over the defeated side.

I urge members who feel similarly to Thoughtsmith to see my post located here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=150804&start=180&sid=64b02a99a9a5bd91a3f21537407b258c), under the ENPA poll and post. Such an idea may be all that we have to protect our rights.
Reiki Practitioners
10-06-2004, 05:58
There's nothing wrong with the UN's basic structure and purpose.

Just with us, the people not using it effectively. :)

Part of the problem is:

A) people don't participate in the resolution-creation process, creating a vaccuum for others of all qualifications (and lack thereof) to step in. Don't like the issues that come up? Make your own, and compete in the marketplace of ideas.

B) people don't participate in the resolution-development process, and so dumb, badly worded resolutions are not defeated at that stage, nor improved upon by criticism, and so become proposals that get to the voting stage, where we have to deal with them. People don't seem to be aware of this early action stage at all. This is why nations wake up to discover that fringe interests with an axe to grind (or no life, meaning energy to spare) have gotten organized and suddenly a proposal to turn the capital city into, say, a game reserve for small pets is up for a vote.

C) IMO, apart from Compliance Ministry tax hikes, nobody enforces UN resolutions, or there is no apparent proof that this occurs.

D) also IMO, nobody has taken charge of the UN and studied its history. We have online all the UN proposals ever passed here -- many of the new ones are just repeats, badly-worded, of proposals that have passed again and again. What's the result? Tax hikes, and nothing changes. Nobody's driving as we hurtle into the night.

Our NS UN is a lot like the Earth UN, just worse, because nobody is paying attention to history and the system caters to those with free time, rather than those with wisdom and experience -- capitalism requires monetary reward to make such continuous effort, although obsessive drive or zealotry will suffice. LOL!

The person who takes advantage of insight D will effectively control this game -- but who has the time?

I can see it, but I don't have the time, nor want the power.

We have the tools for success, folks -- all that's needed is the will.


Freelander
Reiki Practitioners
Komokom
10-06-2004, 08:33
Komokom
10-06-2004, 08:51
Oh, if any sign of vitriol is detected in this, ignore it, I am tired and as far as I am personally concerned this is all old hat, but some one has to say it, so why not me ...

:wink:

WARNING, The following post is in

HUMUNGO-POST (tm) format.

To run it, you will need to scroll down.

An awful lot. :wink:

Fellow nations,

We address this to all of you, as the issue we present here affects us all. The NationStates UN (NSUN), as it stands now is in a state that we find unacceptable.

* Wakes up, checks watch :

" Oh, its that time of the fort-night, sigh ... :wink:

We bring this before you not as the grievance of a single nation wishing to whine over particulars regarding resolutions and rules of membership, but as one among MANY who have felt for a long time that the UN is fast becoming a threat to our sovereignty. A number which, I regret to inform you, is quickly growing.

* Just manages not to go back to sleep :

1) Not here to whine ? That makes the ... first ... I think ... :)

2) Threat to sovereignty ... ack, I don't feel up to this one, I need Sophista, master of wit and pointy use of words and stuff. The best I can do with is :

"Welcome to the U.N. The titanium-alloy-bound like of which means you pays your money, you takes your choice, and the out-come depends on you + the 37, 000 other people who paid their money and tooks their choice."

Its should be called democracy + simplicity, the nature of it meant so as the programmer could give us a enjoy-able game based simulation, albeit not exactly like the real U.N., so as yet to not have a stroke because of it.

The old argument is it will not be changed, not matter how much you do or "do not" whine. Which is why the people who enjoy it stay and fight the good fight, or leave and find something else to do with their band-width, just like how in real life people who don't like a game and accept the rules will not change because they want them to do the right thing, act civil, polite, and leave, once again to find something else to do.

In the past few days alone nearly thirty nations have contacted us to inform us of their own dismay with the UN as it stands now. Some have chosen to remain members as they see no other choice, and some have resigned their memberships.

Really, I find that interesting, as you've put down no names here, so I'm going to throw up a few possibilities into the air ... And see what falls down ....

1) Any chance of some names ? Proof and the like of ?

2) 30 ... hmmm, and did you ask them their opinion, or was it "spontaneous".

3) Are they a fair demographic of player make up ?

Why, you may ask, do we Thoughtsmiths not simply resign our membership? Why not leave if we are unsatisfied, instead of posting to all of you with something that may not even concern some of you? We remain because only by remaining do we preserve our voice. Without a UN membership we do not have the liberty to address you. That, perhaps in and of itself, is sufficient cause for concern.

Ask you ? Never, much more civil to suggest it.

My non-existing-god, some one who does not like the U.N. but plans to stay, you really are the first of the kind at this rate ...

:wink:

... Wait a minute :

Without a UN membership we do not have the liberty to address you. That, perhaps in and of itself, is sufficient cause for concern.

( Hysterical laughter )

Ahem, just a moment ( chuckle ) my friends, you do not need member-ship to have a voice here, though maybe it would be nice at times if it were a prerequisite but no, you do not need membership for a voice here. Any player may speaker here as in any other forum, but, as with any other forum, it is what they have to say by which other players judge them.

And quite frankly, if people don't listen to you because your not a member, then they could be idiots, or have their own reasons and or standards for doing so.

In the past, before joining this organization, we cautiously weighed whether or not to become a UN nation. Of what benefit was it to us? Our nation was certainly democratic, and had a long and proud history of public life and prosperity, as well as a flourishing cultural wealth. It seemed to us that to join the UN would at best maintain all that we had accomplished and were so proud of, and at worst would infringe on that which we cherished so dearly.

Is there a point coming, or is this "build up to point / space filler" ?

Ultimately, we were reminded of our responsibility as citizens of the world. It was not enough for us to ensure our own prosperity and self-actualization. It was not enough to stand in isolation, content to live in a self-sufficient state. We needed to establish contact with our fellow nations and become a part of the world forum so as to help bring about a better future: for ourselves, but ultimately for the generations to come.

I'll resist the urge to wipe a tear from an eye for a moment and say only, welcome to the U.N. where we try to make the world a better place and suffer the double edged sword of it, where not everything always goes your way.

Recently it has become clear that the UN has begun to infringe on the sovereignty of our nation. Resolutions passed are absolutely binding on all member nations, regardless of the histories and traditions that might have led to our individual bodies of law and constitutions. Understanding that no bureaucracy is perfect, in fact the very concept seems inherently flawed, we were willing to go along with limiting certain liberties we have become accustomed to, in the interests of serving a larger, global ideal. To be a citizen is to sacrifice some personal preferences for the betterment of all. This we accept.

I doubt few honestly accept that which they complain of, but then again maybe not all speak as plainly as me. Or have facts to back us up. I approve of your feelings, but really, cut to the chase?

Ah, here we go, I think ... :wink:

What we cannot accept, and what we have just come to realize, is that in response to certain resolutions that may pass, we have no recourse. Resolutions aimed at repealing or ammending prior resolutions, are deemed unacceptable according to UN resolution writing rules, and may not be proposed. While the former part of this condition is certainly understandable, the latter is not.

Yes it is, people who run the game and make the rules have said it is so, games have rules for a reason. Wait a second, wait, this an an appeal/repeal plee is it not, oh ... goody ...

:roll:

This is startling to say the least,

It certainly is.

and quite dangerous indeed.

Yes, because soon many new players will read this before the rules and reasons, and responsible players will then need to direct them to the facts, like a hundered times before.

That is to say that any resolution that is brought up for a vote before the Assembly, no matter how simplistic, will be decided by a majority vote and then become binding. No ammendments may be proposed. This violates the fundamental principles of Democracy and cannot be allowed to continue.

Oh dear, did you here that every-one, the game is not a realistic simulation of true democracy, now will that be American democracy, English Democracy, the idealistic Virtual Democracy, or ...

:roll: + :wink: + ( Some kind of emoticon of my head banging against a brick wall )

This among other issues do we present to all of you here and now. We offer this as a sample of what it is that we have noticed. No doubt many of you, and most certainly those of you who have already expressed your feelings to us, have similar issues in the forefront of your minds.

Well, I certainly am seeing quite a few issues, not all of which are page or U.N. based for sure... And might I say, many of my issues stem from there being people who launch, apparently un-educated in the matter, smack bang into an issue, drawing many more down with them.

We encourage you to contact us directly, or post here for the benefit of all, or both, with your thoughts, concerns, and arguments. We seek not to have this be a one-sided issue, but the matters of concern here could no longer fall unaddressed.

Oh, they get addressed, quite often, I really do think I'll have to get started on that ultimate guide thingy sooner then the move to jolt, pity.

It is time that these issues be discussed and the better aspects of our combined intellects be channelled to work toward something greater. And if the UN, during, or as a result of, this undertaking is to be reformed or replaced, then so be it. We will not allow events to continue down this path.

I'll save my time by saying, stop repeating yourself, and realise that it won't happen, for a variety of reasons, try emailing administration for all the arguments against.

To resign is too simple an action to take; an action that forsakes all the potential that resides here among us. An action that would see us silenced.

And, apperntly, it is also too simple to read the stickies through a few times, ask the moderation staff, email administration, or simply ask a few older players who know the history..

Apparently the better coarse of action is to mount the high horse and ride of into glorious if also innocent, ignorance.

One would think this more "bitter" then "better". :wink:

We are the ones who must create the future we are to live in, and the time for action is now.

Yes, so please, every-body, sit down, shut up for a moment, and aquaint yourself with the history, the rules, and the reality, before riding off into brilliant rhetoric and immortal opinionated claims.

Might I add, this is nothing personal in my views in this debate dear friend, only the faint I hope I might educate others to a more sinister situation ...

Independant public service by :

- T.R. Kom
Le Représentant de Komokom.
Ministre Régional de Substance.
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<- Not A Moderator, Just A Know It All.
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