NationStates Jolt Archive

The Republic of Tekania, realizing the problems with the proposed Resolution currntly on the table, proposes to submit an ammending resolution to the table, limiting the scope and vagueness of the current proposition. (given it's current likelyhood of passing)


"Abortion Rights" Admending Resolution.

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing resolution, "Abortion Rights"
The United Nations hereby resolves to ammend the existing resolution with
the following provisions:

I. No "partial birth" late term abortions shall be permitted.

II. Nations shall maintain the right to the proper licensing and
regulation of institutions who provide abortion services
whithin their nations borders.

III. A) Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall be illegal. And punishable by any applicable
law within said nation.

B) This accountability of this shall be punishable on
both the provider and client.

IV. Nations shall have the right to require family counseling for the
patient before the woman is to make the decision.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate ammending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


Please recommend any alterations to this proposition.

The Republic of Tekania took hard pains to write this, we are most definitely pro-life in principle. But with the likelyhood of the "Abortion Rights" resolution being passed, we recognize to ethically maintain our membership in the UN, we must make concessions to protect the wellfare of our people.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

The only amendment that would be acceptable to the Terran Coalition is one that lets us retain our right to make abortion illegal. Anything else just wouldn't be enough, but thank you for trying.

The only amendment that would be acceptable to the Terran Coalition is one that lets us retain our right to make abortion illegal. Anything else just wouldn't be enough, but thank you for trying.

We would like to see this proposal go through once it has been spellchecked (I saw three errors). Additionally, adding some proper clauses (Eg "RECOGNISING yada yada yada") into the structure to make it more appropriate would help with getting votes up.
Oh, and in the third provision, you should make that all one sentence.

Well, given the inability to repeal an existing resolution, this is the only our gov't has seen as to make an acceptible middle ground by which some of the moral problems to the resolution at vote now can be solved.
We too dislike the idea of legalized abortion. At least by the stipulation of this amendment, member nations can still maintain some sovereignty to protect the wellbeing of her peoples.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

Yeah,yeah, that's why it is HERE and not submitted yet :P


http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

We Thoughtsmiths aplaud the effort involved in this ammendment. If there is any need of a co-sponsor we are willing.

This would allow us to maintain our UN memberhship; something we would otherwise give-up.

As for those concerned with the inability to make abortion illegal, we suggest that you support this ammendment as it will indirectly make that possible.

We Thoughtsmiths would use this ammendment to maintain our real position on the matter. We are willing to allow abortions ONLY if pregnancy complications threaten the life of the mother and therefore force her to choose between her life and that of the baby. We would thereby require institutions to be licensed in order to perform abortions. And those licenses would only allow for the performance of abortions under the circumstances detailed above.

We would like to see this proposal go through once it has been spellchecked (I saw three errors). Additionally, adding some proper clauses (Eg "RECOGNISING yada yada yada") into the structure to make it more appropriate would help with getting votes up.
Oh, and in the third provision, you should make that all one sentence.
I hardly think that's important in any way. Also, I believe that the men should have just as much of a decision in the abortion as the woman. The saddest thing would be anticipating a baby, and having your partner chicken out, and run off to get an abortion. Besides, if the male doesn't want it, I don't think he should need to pay the woman two hundred bucks a month for eighteen years because, "It's her body." I think that is very selfish reasoning, considering it's the child's body that will have the most impact.

Revisions made so far....


"Abortion Rights" Amending Resolution.

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing
resolution, "Abortion Rights", The United Nations
hereby resolves to amend the existing resolution
with the following provisions:

I. No "partial birth" late term abortions
shall be permitted.

II. Nations shall maintain the right to the proper
licensing and regulation of institutions who
provide abortion services within their nations borders.

III. A) Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall be illegal, and punishable by any applicable
law within said nation.

B) This accountability of this shall be punishable
on both the provider and client.

IV. Nations shall have the right to require family
counseling for the patient before the woman is
to make the decision.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate
amending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

Updates again...


"Abortion Rights" Amending Resolution.

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing
resolution, "Abortion Rights", The United Nations
hereby resolves to amend the existing resolution
with the following provisions:

I. No "partial birth" late term abortions
shall be permitted.

II. Nations shall maintain the right to the proper
licensing and regulation of institutions who
provide abortion services within their nations borders.

III. A) Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall be illegal, and punishable by any applicable
law within said nation.

B) This accountability of this shall be punishable
on both the provider and client.

IV. Nations shall have the right, in the case of:

A)Minors: To require the consent and approval of the
minor's gaurdian(s).
B)Partnerships(Marriages): To require consent from
both parties.

V. Nations shall have the right to require family
counseling for the patient before the woman is
to make the decision.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate
amending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

Thank you, a useful proposal. DB would like to see the word 'family' removed from clause IV. There would be some instances (particularly incest) where family counselling may not be appropriate, but other forms of counselling or support would be crucial.

Also, we suspect it is implied in clause II but it may be useful to have some reference to the need for qualified, registered medical professionals to be involved in the process and for women to be advised and consulted on all the options and consequences that they face before they proceed with an abortion.

I suggest amending Article I to "Nations shall have the right to prohibit abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy.", or whatever time you think is appropriate.

If your object is to temper the damage to sovereignity caused by the soon-to-be-passed resolution, there's no point in restricting when an abortion is allowable - leave that to the nations.

As I've pointed out in the debate, "late term" is very arbitrary. Our laws allow abortion at any stage of pregnancy before the water breaks. Other nations may wish to define this differently.

Also, "counselling" has two Ls.

Article III b would also sound better as "Both the provider and the client may be held accountable under Article III."

This is also a grey area, as it's possible that Article I could be considered a partial repeal of the resolution.

DP

"Abortion Rights" Amending Resolution.

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing
resolution, "Abortion Rights", The United Nations
hereby resolves to amend the existing resolution
with the following provisions:

I. Nations shall have the right to prohibit
abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy.

II. Nations shall maintain the right to the proper
licensing and regulation of institutions who
provide abortion services within their nations borders.

III. A) Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall be illegal, and punishable by any applicable
law within said nation.

B) Both the provider and the client may be held accountable
under Article III.

IV. Nations shall have the right, in the case of:

A)Minors: To require the consent and approval of the
minor's gaurdian(s).
B)Partnerships(Marriages): To require consent from
both parties.

V. Nations shall have the right to require whatever form
of "Family planning" counseling.
A)This counselling may include all applicable parties
including (sic.) the woman's legal spouse and in
the case of minors, their legal guardians.
B)Point A shall not be enforced in the case of rape
or incest where the spouse or guardian was the
perpetrator.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate
amending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


Changes made.
I decided to keep your own wording in Article I. and III b) I felt your wording is the most effective in damage control and the least damaging to the idea of it changing, as it lays the capacity of that limit in the hands of the nations, not negating it for all nations.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

Wording alterations....


"Abortion Rights" Amending Resolution.

!DRAFT!

Catagory:<pending> Description:<pending> Strength:<pending>

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing
resolution, "Abortion Rights", The United Nations
hereby resolves to amend the existing resolution
with the following provisions:

I. Nations shall have the right to prohibit
abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy.

II. Nations shall maintain the right to the proper
licensing and regulation of institutions who
provide abortion services within their nations borders.

III. A) Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall be illegal, and punishable by any applicable
law within said nation.

B) Both the provider and the client may be held accountable
under Article III.

IV. Nations shall have the right, in the case of:

A)Minors: To require the consent and approval of the
minor's gaurdian(s).
B)Partnerships(Marriages): To require consent from
both parties.
C)In the case of rape or incest, where the perpatrator
is of the other party. Their consent shall not be
required.

V. Nations shall have the right to require whatever form
of "Family planning" counseling deemed neccessary.
A)This counselling may include all applicable parties
including (sic.) the woman's legal spouse and in
the case of minors, their legal guardians.
B)Article V-A shall not be enforced in the case of rape
or incest where the spouse or guardian was the
perpetrator.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate
amending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

Please correct the spelling of "guardian" and "perpetrator". Thanks.

Although Frigben feels this is a worth effort, we sadly feel that it still should be up to nations to decide whether to prohibit abortions entirely. Regardless, should the abortion resolution pass, we will vote for this amendment should it come to a vote. If it does not reach quorum/fails, we will be leaving the UN.

"Abortion Rights" Amending Resolution.

!DRAFT!

Catagory:<pending> Description:<pending> Strength:<pending>

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing
resolution, "Abortion Rights", The United Nations
hereby resolves to amend the existing resolution
with the following provisions:

I. Nations shall have the right to prohibit
abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy.

II. Nations shall retain the right to the proper
licensing and regulation of institutions who
provide abortion services within their nation's borders.

A)Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall be illegal, and punishable by any applicable
law(s) within said nations.

B)Both the provider and the client may be held accountable
under Article II-B.

III. Nations shall have the right, in the case of:

A)Minors: To require the consent and approval of the
minor's guardian(s).
B)Partnerships(Marriages): To require consent from
the client's spouse.
C)In the case of rape or incest, wherein the perpetrator
is of the other party. Their consent shall not be
required.

IV. Nations shall have the right to require whatever form
of "Family planning" counselling deemed neccessary
before the client(s) make their decision.
A)This counselling may include all applicable parties
including (sic.) the woman's legal spouse and in
the case of minors, their legal guardian(s).
B)Article V-A shall never allow the inclusion of aforementioned
parties, wherein they are the perpetrators, in the case of rape
and/or incest.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate
amending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


Changes made...

In the case of the honourable representative from Frigben, we concur. This should be a position left up to the sovereignty of each nation. But in the interests of peace, we're trying some damage control before the resignations begin.

Also, being in draft stage, I'd like to keep the corrections to symantecs and additions/revisions for now.... and then we'll concentrate on punctuation and spelling when we're closer to submission.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

"Abortion Rights" Amending Resolution.

!DRAFT!

Catagory:<pending> Description:<pending> Strength:<pending>

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing
resolution, "Abortion Rights", The United Nations
hereby resolves to amend the existing resolution
with the following provisions:

I. Nations shall have the right to prohibit
abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy.

II. Nations shall retain the right to the proper
licensing and regulation of institutions who
provide abortion services within their nation's borders.

A)Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall punishable by any applicable
law(s) within said nations.
B)Both the provider and the client may be held accountable
under Article II-A.

III. Nations shall have the right, in the case of:

A)Minors: To require the consent and approval of the
minor's guardian(s).
B)Partnerships(Marriages): To require consent from
the client's spouse.
C)In the case of rape or incest, wherein the perpetrator
is of the party defined in Article III-A or B. Their
consent shall not be required.

IV. Nations shall have the right to require whatever form
of "Family planning" counselling deemed neccessary
before the client(s) make their decision.

A)This counselling may include all applicable parties
including (sic.) the woman's legal spouse and in
the case of minors, their legal guardian(s).
B)Article IV-A shall never allow the inclusion of aforementioned
parties, wherein they are the perpetrator(s), in the case of rape
and/or incest.

V. Any nation excersizing rights within Articles III and IV, wherein
the other required party does not consent, shall make the raising
and support of the child legally binding upon the said non-consenting
party.

A)Any failure by the non-consenting party to live up to their legal
obligations under this article shall be punishable under any
applicable law(s) of said nation.
B)If, under Article IV-A, additional consent is required, and the
other required party refuses to attend, they shall be automatically
considered consenting.
C)If, in the case of the client using any decieving means to prevent the
applicable additional party under Article III-A,B and/or IV-A from attending,
preventing their consent, the said client shall be held accountable in the
violation of any applicable law(s) of said nations.
D)For the purpose of enforement under this article, institutions shall
provide to the proper law-enforecment officials:
1)Certified contact information of the party/parties. Including:
a)Certified copies of letters.
b)Certificates of reciept.
c)Telephone recordings.
2)Either the original, or certified copies as such, of all applicable
consent forms.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate
amending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


New draft.


http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

Article III is a little touchy in my view, since many abortions are done to hide pregnancy from parents, or to prevent the spouse finding out. If some nations restrict that, there's no point in legal abortion from the medical safety point of view.

Regardless, IIIb should probably be altered to "To require consent from
the fetus's parent(s)" or struck entirely. The spouse may not have fathered the child, and if the spirit of it is to obtain consent of the father, (since the mother is the one having the abortion, her consent is implied) the paternal right should be recognised too.

As a pro-choicer I don't like Article III, but if you're going to include it might as well do it right.

Another thing - you should emphasize that nations are free to have more relaxed rules than these, or you'll have problems getting support.

Also, in Article V, it should be spelt "exercising".

Looks pretty good, but make absolute sure this won't get classed as a repeal of the previous resolution. Send this to a mod (used to be Enodia, but now I'm not entirely sure) to check.

"Abortion Rights" Amending Resolution.

!DRAFT!

Catagory:<pending> Description:<pending> Strength:<pending>

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing
resolution, "Abortion Rights", The United Nations
hereby resolves to allow these provisions within the scope of
United Nations laws on abortion:

I. Nations shall have the right to prohibit
abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy.

II. Nations shall have the right to the proper
licensing and regulation of institutions who
provide abortion services within their nation's borders.

A)Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall be punishable by any applicable law(s) within
said nations.
B)Both the provider and the client may be held accountable
under Article II-A.

III. Nations shall have the right, in the case of:

A)Minors: To require the consent and approval of the
minor's guardian(s).
B)Partnerships(Marriages): To require consent from
the client's spouse.
C)In the case of rape or incest, wherein the perpetrator
is of the party defined in Article III-A or B. Their
consent shall not be required.

IV. Nations shall have the right to require whatever form
of "Family planning" counselling deemed neccessary
before the client(s) make their decision.

A)This counselling may include all applicable parties
including (sic.) the woman's legal spouse and in
the case of minors, their legal guardian(s).
B)Article IV-A shall never allow the inclusion of aforementioned
parties, wherein they are the perpetrator(s), in the case of rape
and/or incest.

V. Any nation excercising rights within Articles III and IV, wherein
the other required party does not consent, shall make the raising
and support of the child legally binding upon the said non-consenting
party.

A)Any failure by the non-consenting party to live up to their legal
obligations under this article shall be punishable under any
applicable law(s) of said nation.
B)If, under Article III-A,B and/or IV-A, additional consent is required,
and the other required party refuses to attend, they shall be automatically
considered consenting.
C)If, in the case of the client using any decieving means to prevent the
applicable additional party under Article III-A,B and/or IV-A from attending,
preventing their consent, the said client shall be held accountable in the
violation of any applicable law(s) of said nations.
D)For the purpose of enforement under this article, institutions shall
provide to the proper law-enforecment officials:
1)Certified contact information of the party/parties. Including:
a)Certified copies of letters.
b)Certificates of reciept.
c)Telephone recordings.
2)Either the original, or certified copies as such, of all applicable
consent forms.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate
amending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


First, I edited slightly, to lessen the chances of the proposal becoming a "Game Mechanics Issue" deletion before quorum.

Secondly, Article III-B was designed for a legal aspect, not to protext "Paternal rights" but to protect rights of the clients legal spouse, regardless if he is the actual father or not. And the proposal doesn't intend to include any legal right to the paternal consent to the acortion in an out of wedlock senario. I.E. if there is no legal marriage "contract" there's no legal say in the abortion of the child. As for the alternate case, of a conception due to an adulterous affair, the purpose is to still include the legal spouse as he has legal say in the relationship and results. It's an accountability clause. But, please note, None of the Article's are absolute mandates, they are a statement of rights, allowing a nation to have said regulations/laws, not mandating said laws. Also the Points in Article III are "selectable" IE you could have one nation with laws minor and partnership clauses, you could have ones with one and not the other, or you could simply not exercize Article III. The same applies with Article IV. And Article V. applies in direct bearing to III and IV, theoretically you could enact none of the provisions of Articles, or you can more or less pick and choose. I'm sure, at the least, most nations would exercize I and II.... Article V. is a provision mandated by Article IV and III to insure legal responsibility towards the child. (I.E. if the woman consents and her husband does not, her husband will be forced to take responsibility for the child.) The same applies to minor situations, if the parents refuse consent for their child, then they must take legal responsibility of the baby. Removing Article III on the other hand, negates the ability of a gov't alloting people to be responsible for their actions. III also holds the requisite that if you adopt provision A and/or B you must also do for C, so in the case where it is a conception by victimization, the woman's right is protected to provent the perpetrator from having any control. Leaving control to the woman. In any case, to deny III is to deny victims rights... in the long run... because in the case of adultry, a woman should not be "protected" if she slept around on her husband, as the HUSBAND is the VICTIM. And therefore reinforces accountability. I'm sorry, but you would have a tought time justifing to me that a woman has a right to hide the fact that she <edited for content> around on her husband. As for minors, EVERYTHING minors make decision is based on parental consent, so why should something as serious as abortion be different? Notice also this resolution does not DEFINE "minor" it leaves the definition up to the nation. You could define minor as anyone below the age of 13.

Just realize the operating particle of each Article... it's not Nations shall do whatever.... it's nations shall have THE RIGHT TO do whatever. The reasolution is written at least to pass some governing ideals back to each nation in this matter..... overall it still makes abortion a legal act.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

In the end it is this, Article I, II is optional, III and it's provisions are optional, IV. is optional, and V. is mandated if you opt III and/or IV.

Kerisland will have to leave the UN if this bill passes, it is completely against the countries morals and would not be acceptable

How about this....


"Abortion Rights" Regulational Rights Resolution.

!DRAFT!

Catagory:<pending> Description:<pending> Strength:<pending>

Recognizing the broad scope of the existing
resolution, "Abortion Rights", The United Nations
hereby resolves to allow these provisions within the scope of
United Nations laws on abortion:

I. Nations shall have the right to prohibit
abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy.

II. Nations shall have the right to the proper
licensing and regulation of institutions who
provide abortion services within their nation's borders.

A)Any practice of abortion outside of the properly
regulated and licensed institutions aforementioned
shall be punishable by any applicable law(s) within
said nations.
B)Both the provider and the client may be held accountable
under Article II-A.

III. Nations shall have the right, in the case of:

A)Minors: To require the consent and approval of the
minor's guardian(s).
B)Partnerships(Marriages): To require consent from
the client's spouse.
C)In the case of rape or incest, wherein the perpetrator
is of the party defined in Article III-A or B. Their
consent shall not be required.

IV. Nations shall have the right to require whatever form
of "Family planning" counselling deemed neccessary
before the client(s) make their decision.

A)This counselling may include all applicable parties
including (sic.) the woman's legal spouse and in
the case of minors, their legal guardian(s).
B)Article IV-A shall never allow the inclusion of aforementioned
parties, wherein they are the perpetrator(s), in the case of rape
and/or incest.

V. Any nation excercising rights within Articles III and IV, wherein
the other required party does not consent, shall make the raising
and support of the child legally binding upon the said non-consenting
party.

A)Any failure by the non-consenting party to live up to their legal
obligations under this article shall be punishable under any
applicable law(s) of said nation.
B)If, under Article III-A,B and/or IV-A, additional consent is required,
and the other required party refuses to attend, they shall be automatically
considered consenting.
C)If, in the case of the client using any decieving means to prevent the
applicable additional party under Article III-A,B and/or IV-A from attending,
preventing their consent, the said client shall be held accountable in the
violation of any applicable law(s) of said nations.
D)For the purpose of enforement under this article, institutions shall
provide to the proper law-enforecment officials:
1)Certified contact information of the party/parties. Including:
a)Certified copies of letters.
b)Certificates of reciept.
c)Telephone recordings.
2)Either the original, or certified copies as such, of all applicable
consent forms.
E)Women shall have the right to request the paternal father of the fetus, and/or
his spouse be notified of the abortion.
1)For this provision to be operated, paternity tests must be conducted to
determine the paternal father.

Upon passage, this resolution shall take immediate
amending effect upon the "Abortion Rights" resolution.


Article V-E added to make accountability more "equitable"

Kerisland would have to leave if the current on the table resolution passes, this is merely "damage control"

"Nations shall have the right to prohibit
abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy."

We have a problem with this as we fell that sometimes they are necessary, although at this stage doctors in Tblack have often exhausted most other options.

Desdemona,
UN representative,
The Black New World
Do you know what ‘gay science’ is?
Meet The Reps (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132588)

We disagree with article I and have our concerns with article III of this proposal. This is even worse than the current resolution. We will not accept any attempts to restrict our people's rights to treat their bodies how they wish. At the same time, we believe the current resolution is poorly worded and inappropriate.

Abortion is not an issue for the UN.

John Boone
Speaker for Rights & Wellbeing
Ursula Kohl
Speaker for Health

Excellent work. This should have been part of the current motion, and is a vital ammendment to provide some consideration to preventing human rights abuses through the very broad interpretation possible in the first motion.

It isn't a repeal, naturally, since it doesn't dispute the core (and only, in fact) statement in the current motion.

One change, possibly: "Nations shall have the right to prohibit
abortions after the 30th week of pregnancy unless the life of the mother is threatened by the pregnancy"

It's possible that Article III may have some disputes, depending on whether or not you agree with partners having a say over the abortion. I'm not sure whether it's worth splitting the proposal to avoid confusion over which issues people should support, or whether it will create unnecessary bureacracy to split the proposal.

We have a problem with this as we fell that sometimes they are necessary, although at this stage doctors in Tblack have often exhausted most other options.


You can still allow abortions any time. I plan to. The proposal, I believe, just sets boundaries for nations to work in, sets maximums for which they can restrict abortion.

I just used 30 weeks as an example for the phrasing, so I think it should be subject to change.

And there's still the repeal hurdle to deal with.

dp

dp

Apologies, our previous post was made prior to reading the amended proposal.

Ammendments are not possible.
Please read the rules.
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77286


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Myrth
Ruler of the Cosmos
Forum Moderator