NationStates Jolt Archive

Just wondering what happened to all of you once the prop was implemented.
In my case the economy moved to VERY STRONG and I became a Corporate Bordello.

The People's Republic of The Allied Soviets, overall, were uneffected.

I became a capitalist paradise. :shock:

Well of course, it effectively made even the most stauchest of socialists into capitalist countries :)) Capitalism thrives on ownership :)) Effectively, within the socialist realms, they could no longer control or sell information, which means all copywrite ownership then, exists within the private sector amonst corporations... Free Market kicks in, why would people, formorely in socialist control, then work for free in developing projects? They won't, they move to private sector, the private sector then gets all the good, gov't looses social control, being no longer able to own anything as far as IP... Private enterprise can now create better products, and make much $$$$ off their IP... They make more money, your country now lacks any legal authority to hold any IP to compete, the private enterprise wins economically, and your socialist regime is set back :)) Welcome to the Free-Market Captilastic world fellas, enjoy your stay, it's much better here :P

Well of course, it effectively made even the most stauchest of socialists into capitalist countries

Um... no. We're still socialist, we're now an economic powerhouse. Except, technically, it didn't change a thing, since all copyright was owned by the government and freely accessible to all anyway. So now all copyright continues to be owned by the government and continues to be freely available. I'm baffled as to how you think a resolution attacking the concept of copyright ownership is reinforcing property rights.

No, before you owned all copywrites, and it was freely accessible to everyone; now you don't own ANY copywrites (ie Public Domain is not copywrited) and it is freely accessible and usable/modifyable by everyone. Copywrite = IP, you're gov't no longer has any ownership control over IP, that's what the Resolution changed. You fail to see the larger scope of things here... Your gov't no longer has any IP whatsoever. The wording of the resolution prevents you from owning any copywrites(IP) it is all automatically in the Public Domain (no property ownership). This also effectively hands IP holding back to your own nations private sector. (Which every country has unless they are communist). You may still be socialistic in principle, but the effect of the part 3 was to increase the power of your private sector, and therefore boost your economy.

I became a capitalist paradise. :shock:
Me as well.... :(

mine went down from frightening to all-consuming... no, i did no issues then.

mine went down from frightening to all-consuming... no, i did no issues then.

Well of course, it effectively made even the most stauchest of socialists into capitalist countries :)) Capitalism thrives on ownership :)) Effectively, within the socialist realms, they could no longer control or sell information, which means all copywrite ownership then, exists within the private sector amonst corporations... Free Market kicks in, why would people, formorely in socialist control, then work for free in developing projects? They won't, they move to private sector, the private sector then gets all the good, gov't looses social control, being no longer able to own anything as far as IP... Private enterprise can now create better products, and make much $$$$ off their IP... They make more money, your country now lacks any legal authority to hold any IP to compete, the private enterprise wins economically, and your socialist regime is set back :)) Welcome to the Free-Market Captilastic world fellas, enjoy your stay, it's much better here :P
Dang,if my comp wasn't acting weird...I detest ppl like Disney and Bill Gates,I prefer NO ownership,Free Market (free for the wealthy, disastrous for everyone else) being the worst of it all.
I have never felt the private sector to be better....the private sector is more prone to corruption (trusts,monopolies) that a socialist sector,and is answerable only to the leeches of civilization,lawyers and investment bankers. There are more important things in life than IP and $$$$,and it sad that free-marketeers love $$$$ over humanity and everything else.
Money is in and of itself an evil. Maybe you don't care if you lose your soul or the souls of your people fopr money.
As to free market making better products, that's a lie,or do you really consider Windows or IE a good product? IP there is to stop anybody from making a better product,in that everything can be claimed by Microsoft as infringing on their IP....I detest laws that help the private sector, as in the past our country fell to that siren song that the private sector must be left alone...one of the many facets of Fascism. MANY inncoents died due toi this. So to stop the degradation of the worth of human life, to stop the ultimate fate of a person under the free market, we prefer an antoi-capitalistic viewpoint.

Um, fascism is an ideologic extension of socialism, not capitalism. The controling of the social order by the gov't (socialism) to it's extreme. As far as the ideology that property rights is the root of all evil... I would ask you to reffer to all the communist countries... opps, there's hardly any left :O As far as the whole Microsoft argument, it doesn't work either, and it definitely shows a misinformed opinion of what is necessarily "better". TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) of the "open" alternatives to microsoft is much higher.. The raly cry is that the software is cheaper, in TCO software makes up all of 2% of the cost anlysis, most of it is in administration and implementation, which is costs significantly more. If I ran a corporation where I had 50 servers, it might cost me 100,000 in software cost to upgrade to the newest windows server OS.... however, to implement a conversion to linux, the software cost could be negligitable... but in having to revamp the IT dept. staff, and possibly retrain could cost millions..... lower TCO wins. Yes, going from same to same is cheaper, but you're still talking about realitively negligible costs over the long run (the average corporation only does one major upgrade every 4-5 years or so). Yes, there are always monopolies, and large controling interests, but in the long run they never last. Microsoft will fail eventually, finacially speaking, every big-brother company has lost their edge at one point or another (IBM, Xerox, etc.) They just get replaced with another.... but it all done through competition, competition, amongst us humans, fosters advancement ;)

Under Game Mechanics,I hereby ask that the forcing of all IP into the private sector (Article 3) be held null and void,as Heian-Edo wishes to be socialist and not capitalist,AND has the right to be so under UN Resolution Rights and Duties of NationStates. To have to impose a law that fundamentally changes the type of government/economic structure Heian-Edo has, as Public Domain Aticle 3 forces us to do,is in direct violation of Rights and Duties Section I: The Principle of National Sovereignty: Article 1 § Every UN Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government.
We fail to see how a law that forces Capitialism in IP and copyrights is in line with this. We see Article 1 of Rights and Duites as a notwithstanding clause.

Also, to anylize it futher, before, socialist governments, in control of IP holdings, could buy and sell them at their own discression. Article 3 changed all those IP holding into public domain material, thereby making it imposible for socialist gov't's to directly control the material, or have ANY ownership control what-so-ever. Now, before hand, by the afore-said's socialist system of maintaining IP control and ownership, all this "property" was taken away and handed to the public domain by Article 3. What effect this has on the private sector is phenominal, no longer would the private sector of said country submit their IP to the gov't, as this would eliminate any profit what-so-ever, exercizing their rights given them in the FTA, they would simply copywrite their material in another nation (which does not take ownership upon submission of copywrite) alowing them to complete profit off their own IP holdings, instead of it being controled by the socialist economic system in place by the gov't. The net effect is that IP is kept at the private sector level of the nation, fostering more competition within said sector and thereby increasing the economic power of the nation.

To the other end however, removing said resolution under the principle of game mechanics under the principle that it violates your rights to be socialistic opens up a whole new can of worms, it would mean any of us practicing captialism and free-market gov't systems, would be allowed to claim quite alot of the other UN resolution as non-binding for the same said reason 8)

However, you are still socialist in principle (a welfare state) where most of the services are gov't controled and handled. It was in the single matter of IP in which the free-market system gained power. Your healthcare system and the lot are still in your ownership and oversight.

As for personal freedoms, let's compare.... You, for the most part provide all of your services to people, and take all of their money to do so. On the other hand, in my system, people pay 3% of their income for running our gov't and can use the other 97% of their income to pay for the services they choose. Where is the freedom in your system? The people do not have any choice in the matter of the service and quality they have to take the only option (the one you give them). In my system people can choose from what company they wish to get their service (they can choose what insurance firm, they can choose their hospital, they can choose where they get cable, telephone, etc.) They can even start their own company and enter the great world of owning their own business. In our system the idea of social welfare is handed to society in general to take care of, the gov't is only taxed with maintaining the national security and keeping order. They don't give up all their money and then get spoon-fed whatever healthcare you wish to provide, they get to use their own money, they themselves earned, and pick their own healthcare plans from the multitude of agencies on the market.

Just wondering what happened to all of you once the prop was implemented.
In my case the economy moved to VERY STRONG and I became a Corporate Bordello.

UN classification went from left-wing utopia to anarchy. Economic ranking rose from fair to very strong and taxes took a big hit downwards (41%-31%), returning to a flat tax system. This resolution all but undone that miserable 40 hr workweek piece of crap.

Tekania:
The government paid for the devolpement of the IP. Therefore the ownership should have remained with it...we funded it, therefore we have informed the private sector owner we demand every penny we put into the R&D back. Our R&D equals about 90% of the profit the private sector companies who took it from us with no compensation make....

My esteemed collegue, Heian-Edo,

It's not theft, the IP of your formal holding is currently, public domain, they didn't take it, no one did, nor do they have ownership or profit on it; the idea is that current IP development is no longer in conjunction with the gov't office, but it is being handled independantly in the private sector, and being obtained through neighbouring gov'ts with free-market systems. (which will probably change if/when the proposed UN Copywrite Act is passed). It doesn't effect, in terms of theft your former IP holding in the nation, as they are now all public domain (usable/modifyable by any person or other nation) but any IP developed from that point on. People will not develope something, for a living, to have it's property protected through your office, if by submitting it to your office, the development is forced into the public domain (where they can no longer earn a living off of it.) But rather submit it through another a system whereby their property is protected in ownership. (IE through another nations Copywrites office). Economically, your nation is still socialistic, but benefiting now from the capitalism (and property protection )of any of your capitalistic neighbouring nations.( Note in the end, through your "other" systems your system is still profitting from the overall effect (hense your overall economic power-base increase), because you still receive the funds in the end, through your system of income tax. More or less, a firm/person who copywrites a said work, then sells it, now indepedantly, not through your gov't, gets more income, since all income is taxable in your economy, you still get the money. From the income tax of the individual or firm. Your nation has a single facet of capitalism, that is now benefiting increasing the overal income of the gov't through it's socialist economic policy. You see? Your socialist gov't is still getting all of the money generated by the effects of this in the end.


http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg
"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

My economy went up but soon it will go down again. We like staying on strong.

Desdemona,
UN representative,
The Black New World
Do you know what ‘gay science’ is?
Meet The Reps (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132588)

Well of course, it effectively made even the most stauchest of socialists into capitalist countries :)) Capitalism thrives on ownership :)) Effectively, within the socialist realms, they could no longer control or sell information, which means all copywrite ownership then, exists within the private sector amonst corporations...

Corporations? We have no corporations. Welcome to the world of federations of democratic worker-controlled collectives. Nor do the collectives have copyrights on much of anything, seeing as our system of copyright amounts to "if you show it to anybody, they can do what they like with it". This proposal had no internal effect on our federation, however it did make it slightly easier for us to gain formerly copyrighted material from other nations - not that we didn't just pirate things anyway before.

You are right, capitalism thrives on the property monopoly. Which is why a lot of the socialist nations voted to expand the public domain in the capitalist nations. The less the capitalists are able to monopolize, the better.

What is it with people comparing socialism to fascism?

Look, fascism is an extreme form of nationalism; communism is international. Fascism has close ties to corporate leaders; communism controls industry for the benefit of the workers. Fascism suppresses the rights of women; communism holds women as equal to men, gives them optional free childcare or two years payed maternity leave, and free education for their kids.

Fascism oppresses minorities; communism holds all as equal.

Fascism uses religion to achieve it's end; communism holds that religion is unnecessary.

Further, fascism is a reaction by the bourgeoisie to keep the working class from taking power. Even under Stalinism, there was no way for the governing elite to build up vast amounts of wealth, as one can under capitalism.

Tekania seems to be linking dictatorships and fascism, which isn't something you can do. Here's (http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/2003/msg00700.html) a guide to the fourteen points of fascism; Stalinism hits about half.

For those of you who don't like Bush, you might note that the Prez hasn't missed one... and I'm sure that Tekania wouldn't call Bush a communist?

Yours in friendship,
Viole Of the First

"If American's were idealists, I would be a patriot;
"If the bourgeoisie gave freely to the poor, I would be a capitalist;
"If the strong supported the weak, I would be a Social Darwinist;
"If the world did not exist, I would be a theist."

You are right, capitalism thrives on the property monopoly. Which is why a lot of the socialist nations voted to expand the public domain in the capitalist nations. The less the capitalists are able to monopolize, the better.

It didn't do much of anything to expand the public domain in capitalist countries, capitalist republics don't own any copywrites, they are and have been in the sole ownership of the creator. The creators in said free-market system isn't the gov't as in the socialist economy, therefore we never gave up any IP rights, as we don't hold any. In a socialist structure all IP rights would have been owned by the gov't, which the resolution firmly removed from your ownership. I cannot see how an article that puts all UN member nations gov'ts IP holdings into the public domain can in any way effect the ownership in an economic model where the IP rights are all held by private individuals. Article's 1 and 2 were pointless redundancy, as they merely were restatements of Tekania's own IP policies, Article 3 has no bearing whatsoever on the gov't of a free-market nation. Article 4 did minor damage, as it decreased the chances of small people being able to compete as well in the market as large conglomerates, if anything the Resolution strengthened the holdings of large corporations, while screwing the "little guy". If it was meant to hurt captialism, you all failed miserably.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

About half? You need to either rethink the article, or refresh your math...


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos,
slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen
everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
TOP

Nazi Germany.... yes
Stalinism.... yes
USA..... yes
most of the developed world... yes

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in
fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in
certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other
way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations,
long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. TOP

Nazi Germany.... yes
Stalinism..... most certainly
USA...... no
most of the developed world..... no

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need
to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or
religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists,
etc. TOP

Nazi Germany... yes, jews and other "non-aryans"
Stalinism..... yes, capitalists
USA..... yes ( in the wording of the point article )
most of the developed world, including the socialist european nations.... yes

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is
given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the
domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are
glamorized. TOP

Nazi Germany.... yes
Stalinism..... yes
USA.... within the wording of the document (though the title is written more specific then the text) yes...
But the concept of military spending in the USA has been relatively high since WW2(entering the Cold War) primarily due to the responsibility the USA carried in NATO, (Socialist members talked about needing it, Capitalism stopped talking and actually GAVE it.)
Most of the developed world fall in the the above as well

5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-
dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made
more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and
the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family
institution. TOP

Nazi Germany.... yes
Stalinism..... suprizingly, yes
Socialism..... partially, yes, Most of the developed world has state controled marriage laws... anyone possessing such laws would be technically in partial compliance with this point.
USA presently- yes (past no, socialist doctrine marriage laws have made the system corrupt and caused some of the present problems... under strict Republic principles of Common Law this never would have been a problem... however socialist principles destroyed the Common Law in most principalities in the US)

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in
other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government
regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives.
Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. TOP

Nazi Germany.... yes
Communism.... yes (gov't owns the media companies)
Socialism.... varies by degrees, pure socialism is in violation however...
USA... Media regulation is present, and every single hinderance of the media past and present has been the direct result of people with socialist leanings.
Most of the developed world is in violation of this as well, to some degree or another

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the
masses. TOP

Nazi Germany.... yes
Stalinism.... yes
USA and the rest of the developed world.... no (Don't even bring 9-11 into it, had that been the idea, we would have been bombing people on 9-12)

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion
in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious
rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when
the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the
government's policies or actions. TOP

Well, hate to break it to you, but EVERY nation operated on this viewpoint.... Atheistic (including the position of agnostic) viewpoints are still a form of theology, and therefore a RELIGIOUS view point, so therefore incorporating a "religious" view into the gov't.... It is imposible for people to act outside their beliefs, regardless what those beliefs are... The USA is just more open about it the concept them socialist countries are, when they feel, by being "agnostic" in social welfare, they are keeping religion out of it. It's just a self-deception.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are
the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a
mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
TOP

All nations have corporate power... regardless of their economic model.... the only difference is that in Communism all corporate power is controled by the gov't, in Socialist some to all are... and in Free-market none are... So name one country that does not divest protecting corporate power? Whether it be a private corporation or a gov't owned one?

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a
fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or
are severely suppressed. TOP

Nazi Germany.... to some degree
Stalinism.... yes, most definitely...
USA... no
The concept of the free-market is centered around the freedon of the individual to handle their own path. Labor unions would merely be an organization of individual and not contrary to the principles of Free-market capitalism.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher
education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other
academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the
arts and letters is openly attacked. TOP

Nazi Germany... yes
Stalinism.... yes
USA.... no... except for the concept that in free-market economy, experience holds more value then academics
(who would you like doing the wiring in your house? Someone who has been in electrical work, and done thousands of wiring jobs successfully? Or someone who just read a book on it?)

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to
enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses
and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is
often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in
fascist nations.

Nazi Germany... yes(SS)
Stalinism.... yes(KGB)
USA.... yes, unfortuneatly, all of which I disagree with, and some resultant of socialist influence in politics (FBI, IRS, etc.)

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and
associates who appoint each other to government positions and use
governmental power and authority to protect their friends from
accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national
resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright
stolen by government leaders. TOP

NAzi Germany.... yes
Stalinism..... yes
Heck, most of the world does this.... the last part being much more prevalent in Socialist and Stalinist systems then any other....

14. Fraudulent Elections -
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other
times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even
assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control
voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of
the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to
manipulate or control elections.

Nazi Germany.... yes, they only had ONE election :O
Stalinsim.... yes. Please list when, during the entire reign of the "Communist Party" there was another option besides the one the Communist Party chose.... A ballot with only one name on it, isnot a ballot in the first place
USA.... Well, voting numbers were manipulated, by federalists back in the early 1800's... when the levels of representation were changed... besides that... no


So Let's see... 1/2? Near as I can tell Stalinism fitted the bill on all of them.... in fact it would be fairly difficult not to fit the bill on any of them, unless you were operating a complete free-market economy (Which is what the Republic of Tekania is modeled on)

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tekania.jpg

"Qui Desiderant Pacem Preparate Bellum"
("Those who desire peace, prepare for war.")

My economy went from Very Strong to Thriving, and I became a Capitalist Paradise. I know this was exclusively due to the resolution, since I'd checked my nation after my last issue took effect, but before the resolution did.

Fortunately, it looks like the mods were nice and interpreted the resolution according to Laziness' stated intent, rather than according to the vague, loophole-filled wording.