NationStates Jolt Archive

I am completely against it. This is DISGUSTING, the fact that people want to MURDER INNOCENT BABIES makes me furious, it's bad enough they are doing it in real life, we don't need these horribles acts going on in NationStates. Abortion is, and will always be, murder. If it comes to it, I will leave the UN just to keep my nation from using abortion.

Kloris
Someone with compassion for human life
Rogue Nation of Ehglarp

I concour but no one will listen just wait and see.

it's bad enough they are doing it in real life, we don't need these horribles acts going on in NationStates.

That sentence implies you think it's worse in NationStates than it is in real life...

I think I'll just respond to the abortion one and not the idea that Nation States is real because thats a delusion that affects too many of us.

Abortion is a basic right of women - the ability to choose what they wish to do with their body. I'm going to guess that you're a conservative because every conservative I've met has said that it is murder. This is where the basic dispute between liberals and conservatives occurs: when is the fetus a human. You're probably going to say it is human right at conception. I say that it is human once thought patterns begin to occur (at about the six month period). I will probably never sway you, but these are my thoughts. At conception, the embryo has 46 chromosones, that we all know. These will eventually grow into a human being - the basis of the human argument. However, my arm also contains 46 chromosones, but it will never grow into a human being. Since my arm will never become another humane being, then we can say that based of chromosones, an embryo cannot be considered human.

Then we move into the stem cells. The embryo is made up of stem cells which can grow into any body part of a human. This is not true of my arm. Point given. However, those stem cells can be directed to form into anything that pretains to the body as shown by science. So, if we can take those stem cells and create five livers out of them instead of a baby, is it a human yet?

Then we have the ethical issues - murder. As we have seen, if it cannot be yet considered human, is it murder by our standards? Or, are we just removing something unwanted - like having cosmetic surgery done or having a tumor removed. The killing of a fetus may leave the mother feeling empty as has been observed, but, it was her choice to remove the fetus because either she was raped, is not yet ready (financially or otherise) for a baby, or, contraceptives failed. Since I do not consider the fetus to be human until thought patterns register, I do not see this as murder, merely a choice.

Where I do agree with you is, after the thought patterns register, the fetus is now fully human, and having an abortion after that point is murder. But, before that six month point, I do not think it is murder.

And as for withdrawing from the UN, go ahead, its been done before and no one has really seen any consequence.

It's not about killing babies (who of course are innocent; would killing guilty babies be alright?), it's about the definition of human life, a not laughable example of which religion can't offer. I don't think desert cults show the most respect for life, myself.

What about test-tube babies? Do you know how many embryos are destroyed by in vitro? If you think abortion is the biggest risk, think again. Abortion is never fun; in vitro fertilization is seen in a much better light and therefore is more difficult to threaten.

But go ahead and think you're the sole right in a world of darkness. Science has asked for a rational argument against abortion. It has not come. But don't worry. The angry rhetoric-spewing, pitchfork wielding and torch carrying technique has worked well for those unable to debate. My guess is that the religiously blind have not forgotten that tactic which has worked so well.

Anadolu will support the side of reason. Emotions are flawed tools for policy. We've all got emotions that tell us we're right; only reason can prove which among us actually are.

I am completely against it. This is DISGUSTING, the fact that people want to MURDER INNOCENT BABIES makes me furious, it's bad enough they are doing it in real life, we don't need these horribles acts going on in NationStates. Abortion is, and will always be, murder. If it comes to it, I will leave the UN just to keep my nation from using abortion.

Kloris
Someone with compassion for human life
Rogue Nation of Ehglarp

Ok i would like to warn people that this post may upset a few of you and i don't really care.

Also i may be forced to go a tad more personal than i would like to when addressing my views on this .

Now that is out of the way i'll continue HOW DARE YOU DECREE WHAT A WOMAN CAN AND CANNOT DO WITH HER OWN BODY?
What obviously seems disgusting to you are what normal people view as the right to choose yes individuals are given free thought and along with that comes the ability to make decisions and with those dicisions we shape our lives , If you are successfull with this campaign you take away womens personal rights that a lot of people fought and got persecuted for, Now you have my general gist i'll continue.

Let me pose you with a question , Say a 12 yr old girl who has matured to the point of being able to become pregnant gets raped and ends up pregnant from said attack would you actually condone further torture on the poor girl by forcing her to keep said baby even if abortion options were open to her? How about if it was a family abuse case? Her father or brother maybe?

Another, Say a woman has just had a child and she is soon pregnant with another , She is finding it hard to cope with just the one would you force another child on her and cause P.P.D maybe even suicide?

Another What if the only way to save a womans life was with an abortion?

Another what if it was discovered that a woman was carrying a child who would later (maybe 3 months into life) die a painfull and horrid death (of natural causes) , Would you force her to watch her child suffer rather than end it before it all began?

People like you disgust me with your small mindedness and lack of feelings for other people and their views .

I'm pro-choice all the way on this topic because how can we dictate to people what they should do in this situation when we don't know the circumstances ?

Sorry if i rambled this is a topic close to my heart.

This is an issue that is a deeply heart-felt issue on both sides.

When it's debated, nobody leaves happy.

Some would say that life begins at conception, and others would say that it begins at the time the fetus leaves the mother.

I think this issue is too deep within everyone's personal beliefs to have a logical debate over, and that it shouldn't be decided by the UN.

NS is about choosing how your nation goes based on your beliefs, and I believe that a UN mandated decision such as this would be a bad idea.

That's why I've started another thread called "Help Write A UN Abortion Resolultion" in which I hope to bring together people to say that the nation has the right to choose whether or not to allow abortion.

Feel free to post there.

I don't wish to pick on anyone in piticular, but Tequillaria has had the post with the most arguments thus far, and I wish to play devil's advocate. I'm doing this and hoping to pass a resolution that leaves the nations with the right to choose whether or not to have abortion.

HOW DARE YOU DECREE WHAT A WOMAN CAN AND CANNOT DO WITH HER OWN BODY?
Wouldn't some argue that she does have the choice, and should live with the consequences afterwards? It's just a though, I'm not looking for an argument.

What obviously seems disgusting to you are what normal people view as the right to choose yes
Normal people? I know tons of people who are on both sides of abortion. I'd say either view could be considered "normal."

now here comes what everyone (including me) does: rare situations


Say a 12 yr old girl who has matured to the point of being able to become pregnant gets raped and ends up pregnant from said attack would you actually condone further torture on the poor girl by forcing her to keep said baby even if abortion options were open to her? How about if it was a family abuse case? Her father or brother maybe?

That's a very, very, very good point. However, why does no one ever think of a conditional arbortion law, in which a person can only get abortions in certian situations, such as rape? That would make more people happy.

Another, Say a woman has just had a child and she is soon pregnant with another , She is finding it hard to cope with just the one would you force another child on her and cause P.P.D maybe even suicide?
Well, here I would bring up that it was the woman's choice in at least one pregnancy. She shouldn't have done that to herself. Also, the whole situational thing could be considered here.

Another What if the only way to save a womans life was with an abortion?
Well, then we must decide who's life is worth more.

Another what if it was discovered that a woman was carrying a child who would later (maybe 3 months into life) die a painfull and horrid death (of natural causes) , Would you force her to watch her child suffer rather than end it before it all began?
Well, this brings up the whole situational thing again. And situational things CAN go for both sides.

People like you disgust me with your small mindedness and lack of feelings for other people and their views .
Because only those who disagree with you are small minded, or closed minded. And only those who disagree with you would be insulting towards others' views. Oh, wait, you just were.

I'm pro-choice all the way on this topic because how can we dictate to people what they should do in this situation when we don't know the circumstances ?
Again with the situational thing. It's something that very few people consider, because today's media and prolife/prochoice groups don't want you to think about. No one ever really likes compromise.

Sorry if i rambled this is a topic close to my heart.
As it is to everone's.

Tequillaria is an intelligent person (or so the post would make it seem), and my appologies if I have offended you.

I'm not trying to make a stand either way. I want to have a resolution stating that Nations shall hold the right to decide the abortion issue for themselves.

I'm not offended in the least , You have made some extremely valid points.

My point is this, It is a womans choice as to whether she has a child or not , Yes she has to live with the consequences that follow as do we all whenever we have to make a difficult choice but laws shouldn't be made where her personal freedoms are taken away.
Abortion should be no more banned than it should be made manditory , Yes i made points that were very blunt and to the extreme but i did that to show situations where completely banning things can be unquestionably wrong.

This is very much a morality question/test.

Although I can't (and am too lazy to try to) find scientific evidence for why abortion is wrong, I must say that I do believe it is wrong. I know saying that the Church opposes it is no reason for the rest of you to follow suit (I shouldn't be preaching the will of the Church because, as OP has pointed out many times, I am a heretic). I would like to have the security of knowing that, since this is such a... what's the term, slippery slope? Is that it? Anyways, I would like the security of not having international legislation pushed one way or another on this (mainly because I can see that the pro-abortion side has strength in numbers) I am anti-abortion purely for religious reasons, and I would like to keep the environmentally pristine Vivelon free of fetus corpses.

BTW, isn't it technicaly a fetus from 2nd trimester to birth? I thought you were saying fetus after 6 months, and that's not correct. (not that it really matters because I am pro-life, but just so ya know)

+His royal highness:
Prince Tony of Vivelon
Unofficial UN Dead Horse beater (but only on ethics topics)
http://img71.photobucket.com/albums/v215/TonyS37/vivelon_flag.jpg
"An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind." ~Mahatma Gandhi

No, it only leaves 2 people with poor depth perception :p

There are legitamate arguementd for banning abortions. I don't like the arguements like "how dare you try to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her own body?!" because how can you ban me stabbing someone to death, or beating people up, 'cause that's telling me what I can and can't do with my own fists. The thing is, I'm harming others, so it's not "unreasonable" to tell me I can't beat people untill they're dead if they steal my spot or look at me funny. With abortion, some people say that a human's right to life is more important than your right to choose. So, the question goes back to "when is it a human?" Not an esay question

I have yet to decide on a position in this, but if asked I say anti-life in the early stages, anti-choice latter on.

Here's a copy of amessage I posted on my region's message board concerning the upcoming vote on Abortion Rights:

I'm married, for 7 yrs. in a couple of weeks, and I've been with my wife for 12 years.
I'm a father. My little girl turned 5 a couple of weeks ago and last Saturday night she had her first ballet recital. I love her to death and I can't remember what life was like without her. I personally don't like abortion and, if I were a woman, I would not choose abortion. If someone who knows me well enough to ask my advice about getting an abortion, I would advise against it.
Having said all that, having a child is not an easy thing, and the concept of being responsible for a fragile life, 24/7 can frighten the wits out of anyone. I can see how a person would be sufficiently scared to abort a pregnancy, to say nothing about medical problems as Smelly Pizza mentioned.
I respect life and I respect the right to choose.
As the delegate, I feel compelled to vote. However, I will not vote until the last minute, and I will vote as the majority suggests.
NewfoundCana

I don't like the arguements like "how dare you try to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her own body?!" because how can you ban me stabbing someone to death, or beating people up, 'cause that's telling me what I can and can't do with my own fists.

No you are choosing what you are doing "to another person" if you are beating somebody up you are doing something to them and not yourself it is nowhere near the same thing at all , Women have rights and one of those rights is the right of choice and it should always be respected.

Ecopoeia has adopted a 'pro-choice' policy but respects the rights of other nations to legislate on the issue in the manner that they wish. Abortion is an ethically and scientifically ambiguous issue. It is not something that should be legislated for on an international level.

John Boone
Speaker for Rights & Wellbeing
Ursula Kohl
Speaker for Health

There is already a thread for debating this resolution.


http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DrChaotica.jpg (http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/taunt1.mp3)
Myrth
Ruler of the Cosmos
Forum Moderator