NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not sure if this ingame UN has the same charter of the UN as the real world. If an admin could clear this up then there would be no reason to discuss this. Otherwise we should recognize that there is no concensus on the rules governing the UN and the limits of resolutions on the legislation of member states. Therefore, until further information from an admin, we will discuss what a draft UN Charter or constitution would include.

I would like to start by setting a background for why we have a UN. Perhaps we have a UN for creating international legislation that covers issues that either i) cannot be dealt with by a single nation ii) will not be dealt with by a nation in a way that the international community agrees by majority to be reasonable.

Now what issues may individual states not have the ability to fix unilaterally? There are a few global issues that come to mind, the global environment, space including higher orbit, intellectual property, international waters and shipping, disputed territory, international trade and commerce, disarmament.

What issues may states not deal with in a manner which the international community agrees to be reasonable? Human rights, acts of war and terrorism, political freedoms.

All other issues that don't fall within the limitations we decide for a UN Charter will naturally be jurisdiction for member state's internal legislation.

Not all issues have been covered here, just a few issues to be discussed to begin with. If any delegates have issues that may come under either category they are welcome to propose them here. This is just a discussion prior to a draft proposal. This is NOT a proposal. If any delegates take offense to any issue brought up then your input and reasoning is welcome.

I think this is a great idea. People have been making resolutions that contradict each other and interfere with the self autonominity of the nations. A clear concise charter (that doesn't have that weird wording put into the resolutions) would be a good thing for this UN.

His Holiness the Governor-General concurs with the respected delegate from The Democratic Republic of Eruland.

The issues of sovereignty are understood by all civilized and enlightened nations to be paramount in any and all relations between nations, and are at the very core of the principles of Good Governence which the United Nations should attempt to maintain and exemplify at all times.

His Holiness also understands that any such document would not only be constructed from careful and deliberate thought processes, but would be so broad as to require multiple message chains [phpBB `topics'] to adequately debate in a structured manner. His Holiness has read `Submission Pending - Charter of the UN' and believes said document to be too important to be limited to a single message chain and would therefore suggest each article be granted a seperate message chain, as befitting a document of such value to all of the civilized and enlightened world.

His Holiness understands the dificulties involved, but believes only after the careful consideration of each and every article proposed by such a document would the true strenth of said document be given the credence appropriate of the principles contained therein.

His Holiness closes with the admission that he is stymied by the exact wording and articles such a document should contain, but would be most pleased to offer the assistance of The Dominion of North East Cathanistan to any who would undertake such task as authoring what could possibly be the most important international legislation for all of history.

[signed]
The Bishop Fred al-Rubie of The Directorate of Foreign Realtions of The Dominion of North East Cathanistan

I've already done one, and will be submitting it next monday (GMT) - it did not reach quorum by about 20 endorsements last time, so this time it should:

Charter of the UN
A resolution to increase democratic freedoms.

Category: The Furtherment of Democracy
Strength: Strong
Proposed by: Hirota
Description: The General Assembly
Determined to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small;
Further determined to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained;
Resolute in promoting social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
Firm in our determination to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbors’
Unwavering in our resolve to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security;
Most resolute to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest;
Intending to employ the international “machine” for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples;
Proclaims this Declaration;
1.Resolve to maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to bring about by peaceful means, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
2.Further resolve to develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
3.Determined to achieve international cooperation in solving international issues of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, gender, sexuality, language, or religion;
4.Resolute that the United Nations shall promote human rights and fundamental freedoms for all including:
a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and international cultural and educational cooperation;
c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, gender, sexuality, language, or religion;
d. to ensure, with due respect for the culture of the peoples concerned, their political, economic, social, and educational advancement, their just treatment, and their protection against abuses;
e. to promote measures of development, to encourage research, and to co-operate with one another and, when and where appropriate, with international bodies with a view to the achievement of the social, economic, and scientific purposes
5.Resolved to be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these ends;
6.Determined that the United Nations is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all Members;
7.Determined that all members, in order to ensure to all of them the benefits resulting from membership, shall fulfil in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the Charter and existing and future resolutions;
8.Further determined that all members shall give the United Nations every assistance in any action it takes in accordance with the Charter and existing and future resolutions, and shall refrain from giving assistance to any state against which the United Nations is taking enforcement action;
9.Affirms its resolve in this matter.

We encourage the delegate from Hirota not to submit the proposal tabled here. This resolution is sloppy and irrelevant. It implies no restrictions and yet enforces no jurisdiction. Your resolution states that the UN 'solv[es] international issues of' then gives the categories where it can legislate 'economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms'. This basically means they can legislate on almost anything that a sovereign nation can.

Your preamble is a great basis to work from in these discussions, but for the rest of the document you should be thinking like a constitution and not like a mission statement.

We encourage the delegate from Hirota not to submit the proposal tabled here. This resolution is sloppy and irrelevant. It implies no restrictions and yet enforces no jurisdiction. Your resolution states that the UN 'solv[es] international issues of' then gives the categories where it can legislate 'economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms'. This basically means they can legislate on almost anything that a sovereign nation can.

Your preamble is a great basis to work from in these discussions, but for the rest of the document you should be thinking like a constitution and not like a mission statement.

Funny that, it seems to work for the real UN (http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/index.html).

I think you got a point here, but the problem I see here is : for myself and many other fellow nations, we are not proficient in writing a constitution paper properly. Maybe you could help us out on this important matter.

I suggest that you or any other nation's leader who is proficient in constitution writing propose a draft on this discution board.

I would remind Hirota that the reason why it doesn't work in this game is because all resolutions are automatically enforced. In the UN resolutions mean absolutely nothing until the security council decides to trade sanction you or invade with military force.

In this game resolutions are suppose to work. Therefore they are effectively international legislation. An organisation that legislates needs a constitution, not a mission statement.

We accept the delegate from Mandralique's offer to write a constitution and will post a draft shortly. Until that time we believe it would be in the best interests of member states to discuss what powers the UN should have.

Constitution of the United Nations (Draft as at 7th May 2004)
PREAMBLE
Determined to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small; Further determined to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained; Resolute in promoting social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom, Firm in our determination to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbors’. Unwavering in our resolve to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security; Most resolute to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest.

We the Nation States of the United Nations declare,

ARTICLE 1.
This resolution, and all future resolutions made by the UN General Assembly under this Constitution, shall be binding on the courts, judges, and people of every State and of every part of the United Nations, notwithstanding anything in the laws of any State.

ARTICLE 2.
This resolution shall repeal all previous resolutions that are found to be ultra vires of the powers granted by this Constitution.

ARTICLE 3.
The Constitution of the United Nations shall be as follows:-
THE CONSTITUTION
1. The legislative power of the United Nations shall be vested in the UN General Assembly which will consist of UN member states and Regional Delegates.
2. Regular UN member states are entitled to 1 vote per resolution.
3. i) Regional Delegates recieve additional votes for every UN member in their region who endorses them.
ii) Regional Delegates are states with the greater number of endorsements in the region.
4. Resolutions arising in the UN General Assembly shall be determinded by a majority of votes; and when the votes are equal the question shall pass in the negative.
5. Quorum. Until the UN General Assembly otherwise provides, the vote of at least one-third of the whole number of the members of the UN General Assemby shall be necessary to constitute a meeting of the General Assemby for the exercise of its powers.
6. Legislative powers of the UN General Assembly. The UN General Assemby shall, subject to this Constitution, have the exclusive power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the United Nations with respect to:-
i) Trade and commerce between the States.
ii) Postal, telecommunications, the Internet, and other like services.
iii) International waters, beacons and buoys.
iv) The region of space beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
v) Quarantine
vi) Weights and measures
vii) Copyrights, patents of inventions and designes, and trademarks.
viii) Environmental issues affecting more then one state.
ix) Borders of States and disputed territory.
x) Without discrimination, the maximum size of States' militaries.
xi) Human rights, including civil and political freedoms.
xii) Matters incidental to the execution of any power vested by this Constitution in the UN General Assemby.

ARTICLE 4
THE JUDICATURE
1. Judicial power and the Courts. The judicial power of the United Nations shall be vested in an International Court. The International Court shall consist of a Chief Justice, and so many other Justices, not less than two, as the UN General Assemby prescribes.
2. The Justices of the International Court-
i) Shall be appointed by Max Barry creator of NationStates.
ii) Shall not be removed except by Max Barry creator of NationStates, removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity.
iii) The appointment of a Justice of the International Court shall be for a term of 1 year.
iv) A Justice of the Court may resign his office by writing to Max Barry.
3. The International Court shall have jurisdiction, with such exceptions and subject to such regulations as the UN General Assembly prescribes, to hear and determine appeals from States-
i) Of any Justice or Justices exercising the original jurisdiction of the International Court.
ii) Of any resolutions passed before or after this Constitution is enacted.
iii) Of the questions of law of member states, and the judgement of the International Court in all such cases shall be final and conclusive.
4. But no exception or regulation prescribed by the UN General Assemby shall prevent the International Court from hearing and determining any appeal from a State.
5. Original jurisdiction of the International Court. In all matters-
i) Arising under any treaty or resolution of the UN General Assembly.
ii) The UN General Assemby may pass resolutions conferring original jurisdiction on the International Court in any matter arising under this Constitution, or involving its interpretation.

ARTICLE 5
ALTERATION OF THE CONSTITUTION
1. This Constitution shall not be altered except in the following manner:-
The proposed resolution for the alteration thereof:
i) must be passed by an absolute majority of the States, where the Regional Delegates are not entitled to additional votes.
ii) must be passed by an absolute majority of Regional Delegates, where Regional Delegates are not entitled to additional votes.

His Holiness the Governor-General offers what he hopes will be welcome comment regarding the proposed United Nations Constitution.


ARTICLE 1.
This resolution, and all future resolutions made by the UN General Assembly under this Constitution, shall be binding on the courts, judges, and people of every State and of every part of the United Nations, notwithstanding anything in the laws of any State.

His Holiness interprets this to mean the United Nations is to function as a republic rather than a confederation. This may not necessarily be considered negative, but is most certainly a drastic change from current practices, which currently offer and afford each Member Nation great latitudes in interpretation.
His Holiness must consider Article I very thoroughly before offering further comment regarding it.


ARTICLE 2.
This resolution shall repeal all previous resolutions that are found to be ultra vires of the powers granted by this Constitution.

His Holiness is curious what `extreme moral powers' might be, and why they would need be revoked.

The curiosity of His Holiness is piqued by Articles 6.x and what it might possibly entail.

His Holiness expresses his deepest admiration for the forsight and mention of Judicial processes, Judicators, and Judicial powers. His Holiness again notices that a most literal interpretation would shape the United Nations into a republic instead of a confederacy, which is not necessarily negative.

His Holiness is pleased to see something he has demanded on numerous occaisions: an ammendment and alteration procedure.

His Holiness considers the matter of constitutionality of great importance and will therefore place this matter under considerable weight of his, and the summation of his Consuls, thoughts.

[signed]
Mayor-Captain Walid Stevens of The Maximum Veracity Directorate of The Dominion of North East Cathanistan, Consul of Law & Order to His Holiness the Governor-General

That document, if submitted as a proposal, would be deleted. First, you do a blanket repeal of anything which doesn't fit the constitution, then you create a whole new method for resolution enforcement, and then you change the proposal/resolution system for any amendments to your resolution.

GAME MECHANICS!!!!

Plus the whole section describing the voting methods is pointless! Since it's already in force, shouldn't we simply pretend that the first meeting of the UN laid down the basic framework through which we pass legislation?

I personally like Hirota's document, and I don't think we should be restricting what people can try to legislate based on national sovereignty - in a game, it's much more fun to deal with controversial issues, and the vast majority of controversial, interesting issues are ones which would the national sovereignty campaigners would ban if they had the chance.

Constitution of the United Nations (Draft as at 7th May 2004)
PREAMBLE
Determined to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small; Further determined to establish conditions......etc etc etc

Yeah good luck with the character limit on that document when you get round to submissions, cos mark my word, it'll not get under that without some pretty liberal thinning down.

Plus it repeals, and alters game mechanics so has as much chance of surviving the process as a snowball has in hell.

Plus I see no point in discussing mechanics of the UN as they already exist, and are being used. I'd agree to them being included if there were no mechanics in place, but it's not neccessary in NS.

Nothing wrong with my "mission statement" IMO. In fact your term "Constitution" is a inaccurate term for the UN. Constitution (from my understanding) means "The set of basic rules by which a country or state is governed." The UN is not a country or state but an international organisation. A charter is a more accurate definition as it can be defined as a "document stating the principles, purposes and duties of an organization "

With regard to length, perhaps I will propose the resolution that the Constitution (not this one, but when we work out all the bugs) set forth in the forum post http://etc be adopted as the Constitution of the United Nations.

Article 1 is important because it allows resolutions passed to have exclusive and overriding power on member states. This is apparently what we have currently.

Article 2 then goes on to repeal all previous resolutions that contradict the Constitution, resolutions to repeal resolutions are not outside the current game mechanics.

Article 3 sets forth the all important limitations on the 'exclusive' powers granted to the UN. This allows some sovereignty of member states to legislate on certain issues that are best dealt with on a national level. It also 'reaffirms' as all constitutions must, the voting protocol with regard to passing resolutions. This may seem repetitive to you but it is necessary when writing a document that provides a basis for all rules.

Article 4 is important because it reinforces the powers granted to the UN by creating uniformity of the enforcement and interpretation of these resolutions. If delegates would read Article 4 carefully they would see that Justices can simply be Game Moderators or their appointees on the United Nations Forum, and cases of appeal against resolutions could be played out in threads roleplayed on the UN forum. This adds an incredibly interesting dynamic to the game 'International Law'. Up until this point nothing has to alter game mechanics.

Article 5 is the difficult one. Because of the importance of the stability that a Constitution provides it should therefore not be as easily altered as normal motions. It is not our intention to force an implementation that would change game mechanics, but it would help. If game mechanics were changed then the Constitution would be added to the UN page and before we all got the little telegram that we've been forced to comply to a resolution the issue would be appealed to the International Court in the United Nations forum where it would be debated as to its legitimacy before being pronounced constitutional and allowed to pass and be enacted throughout the UN. Alternative to game mechanics being changed, and this one seems more plausible, is that motions still pass, we all still get the telegram, but the playerbase choses to appeal to the International Court in the UN forum (setup by players) and roleplays the debate over its legitimacy. The findings of the Judge (a player) are posted and then we all 'pretend' that the resolution that was passed was unconstitutional and we simply 'ignore' it, regardless of what the game mods would have us think.

The problem with not having the means to protect the constitution from alteration that a change in game mechanics would provide means it could be argued that there is never a condition when the constitution can be changed. This would mean Article 5 is never invoked, but would still mean we could Roleplay the legal dramas regarding the legitimacy of passed and proposed legislation. But the rules governing what powers the UN has could never be changed, because the game mods wouldn't help us.

The problems surrounding 'game mechanics' that it can all be roleplayed if the game mods don't come to the table. Aside from that we must get back to the discussion of what should be in the constitution. Addressing the delegate from North East Cathanistan, yes technically this is a federation but the reason behind article 1 is to give 'all power' to the very limited powers that article 3 provides. And I've just discussed article 2 in my post, its important to make sure all resolutions are compatible, that is logical.

With regard to Article 3 s6.x) that was just something to stirr the pot so to speak. What do other delegates think of allowing the UN to pass resolutions on disarmament, or rearmament even?

With regard to length, perhaps I will propose the resolution that the Constitution (not this one, but when we work out all the bugs) set forth in the forum post http://etc be adopted as the Constitution of the United Nations.

Yeah like that has a chance of working :roll:

This is apparently what we have currently.

Apparently? You need to learn more on the UN old boy. That or be more confident. People love it when you sound confident, even when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Article 2 then goes on to repeal all previous resolutions that contradict the Constitution,

And which resolutions are they please? And who decides this? You? Me?

resolutions to repeal resolutions are not outside the current game mechanics.

Yes they are. Seriously, you need to learn more about the UN before you are going to write such a document without getting political egg on your metaphorical face. :roll:

But hey, if you don't want to listen to me, submit it anyway and we can find out for certain. Then I can sit here and type in my most smug font and tell you I warned you when your proposal gets deleted by the most vigilant moderators. :wink:

Why won't a link to the Constitution work?

Bad choice of words, it does happen occasionally, This IS what we have currently. :P And yes Article 1 IS the way the UN works in this game, not in real life, but in the game yes. That's why there is a 'compliance minister' that telegrams you to tell you resolution has passed.

Perhaps this game works in a manner different to the rest of the universe but last I knew if you passed a resolution saying the sky was blue then you passed one that said it was not blue, the later resolution 'repeals' the first. Are you saying that once a resolution has passed on a topic no future resolutions can change it??

ARTICLE 3.
The Constitution of the United Nations shall be as follows:-
THE CONSTITUTION
1. The legislative power of the United Nations shall be vested in the UN General Assembly which will consist of UN member states and Regional Delegates.
2. Regular UN member states are entitled to 1 vote per resolution.
3. i) Regional Delegates recieve additional votes for every UN member in their region who endorses them.
ii) Regional Delegates are states with the greater number of endorsements in the region.

Irrelevance. It's not something the UN can vote on.

4. Resolutions arising in the UN General Assembly shall be determinded by a majority of votes; and when the votes are equal the question shall pass in the negative.

Again irrelevance, it's not something the UN can do anything about.

5. Quorum. Until the UN General Assembly otherwise provides, the vote of at least one-third of the whole number of the members of the UN General Assemby shall be necessary to constitute a meeting of the General Assemby for the exercise of its powers.

Game mechanics. Another reason this will get shot down.

6. Legislative powers of the UN General Assembly. The UN General Assemby shall, subject to this Constitution, have the exclusive power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the United Nations with respect to:-

So member states have no such choice in these issues themselves? That's what "exclusive" sounds like to me!


ARTICLE 4
THE JUDICATURE
1. Judicial power and the Courts. The judicial power of the United Nations shall be vested in an International Court. The International Court shall consist of a Chief Justice, and so many other Justices, not less than two, as the UN General Assemby prescribes.
2. The Justices of the International Court-
i) Shall be appointed by Max Barry creator of NationStates.

And you have asked Max I assume?

ii) Shall not be removed except by Max Barry creator of NationStates, removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity.

Again, same question.

iii) The appointment of a Justice of the International Court shall be for a term of 1 year.

And now you want to limit Max's and moderators control? Plus I'd consider it game mechanics.

ARTICLE 5
ALTERATION OF THE CONSTITUTION
1. This Constitution shall not be altered except in the following manner:-


GAME MECHANICS


The proposed resolution for the alteration thereof:
i) must be passed by an absolute majority of the States, where the Regional Delegates are not entitled to additional votes.

GAME MECHANICS

ii) must be passed by an absolute majority of Regional Delegates, where Regional Delegates are not entitled to additional votes.

GAME MECHANICS.


+++++++++++

In summary, poorly written, poorly investigated, poorly thought out.

It doesn't need me to disapprove it though, it'll get nowhere very quickly thanks to the ever vigilant mods.

DP

Perhaps this game works in a manner different to the rest of the universe but last I knew if you passed a resolution saying the sky was blue then you passed one that said it was not blue, the later resolution 'repeals' the first. Are you saying that once a resolution has passed on a topic no future resolutions can change it??

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. But then the second would never be passed. It would never reach quorum as it would be deleted.