NationStates Jolt Archive

Due to the heavy debates concerning the recent resolution, United Nations Educational Committee, I have worked in cooperation with the members of The North Pacific to draft this proposal, to be sent in later today.

Amendments to UNEC

AWARE of the passage of its resolution, United Nations Educational Committee, adopted April 9, 2004,

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
b ) Providing additional educational grants in the form of purchased supplies directly to all levels of public education of member states that have requested financial help, as well as selected private education programs that have applied for supply grants to the UNEC,
c ) Evaluating the level of need and appropriate supply purchases for the national education programs and public and private school programs that have applied to the UNEC for assistance, and
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;

2. ESTABLISHES a United Nations Educational Trust Fund, which will be managed by the UNEC and funded through donations by international, national, and non-governmental sources;

3. FURTHER DEFINES the voting membership of the UNEC to include:
a ) any UN member state which contributes to the United Nations Education Trust Fund, and
b ) a number UN member states, not to exceed 100 seats, as elected by the UN General Assembly to serve one year terms;

4. RECOMMENDS two advisory panels to the UNEC, composed of:
a ) up to two teachers from each UN member state, and
b ) up to two students from each UN member state;

5. INSTRUCTS the voting membership of the UNEC to take into consideration all of the recommendations provided by the UNEC advisory panel;

6. AUTHORIZES the UNEC to base the decisions concerning the awarding and continuation of the United Nations Education Trust Fund grants on both the recommendations of the UNEC advisory panel as well as on information collected on the current status of overall quality of the programs that apply for financial aid;

7. SUGGESTS that the evaluation of the current status of the overall quality of educational programs includes a budget analysis of the educational program, student retention, school curriculum and program of study, educational goals of the society in question, and feedback from the students / teachers / administration and representatives of the country applying for the grant;

8. AFFIRMS that the grants provided by the UNEC will only be used for educational purposes, such that if the UNEC has reason to believe the funds or supplies it provides are being used for non-educational programs, the UNEC may vote to suspend the funds upon an investigation, as provided by its monitoring program described above;

9. ACKNOWLEDGES the inherent right of societies to determine what is best for their children, by taking into consideration the cultural and social needs of the members states and schools that apply to the UNEC;

10. REAFFIRMS that the financial resources provided by the UNEC should be given out on a need basis, with the nations most in need of assistance will be given a priority in the UNEC decision making process; and

11. EXPRESSES ITS HOPE that in time that nations will be able to supplement the aid provided by the UNEC and that the programs and institutions that apply for UNEC aid may become self-sufficient.

End proposal

This proposal should effectively patch up all of the problems noticed by various nations over the past week, including the funding and typo issues. I would like to extend my thanks to the members of The North Pacific for their help in this, particuarly Mikitivity, for being the one to actually write the final draft shown here. Please feel free to post any comments here, or send me a telegram with your concerns. Delegates, I ask that you approve this whether you like it or not so that the entire UN may have a say; you can vote against it then. Also, to make me feel better, everyone who reads this please answer to the poll above, so I know if it is worthwhile sending this in a second time if necessary. Thank you all, again The North Pacific in particular, and "Live Long and Prosper."

This looks like a thoroughly good idea. Two concerns:

[OOC]:-First off, before submitting it, telegram Enodia or one of the other mods to check that it wouldn't be considered to violate game mechanics. I don't see why there would be a problem, but it's worth checking so as not to risk getting booted out of the UN.

-Second, could we get an explicit rider in there that the UNEC can't use a nation's system of education provision (ie public or private) as a criteria for deciding whether or not to hand out grants? We're slightly concerned that the UNEC could be used to threaten or bribe nations into IMF-style "restructuring" privatisation measures.

As to the "game mechanics" thing, We have already contacted Enodia, and recieved no response that I know of. I assume it is ok, especially since this is just clearing up some fuzzy points.

As to the public/private thing, that is covered in article 1c. public systems will recieve the first grants, then those privates that apply.

:!: THIS PROPOSAL WILL BE SUBMITTED IN 3 HOURS. FINAL CHANCE TO MAKE CHANGES. :!:

Woah, woah, woah. Could you hold on a few more days? Enodia hasn't been sighted anywhere for a week or so - I don't think he's been at his computer.
And posting this for one day really isn't long enough to get much worthwhile feedback from forum regulars, especially since many of them are away for Easter right now.

As to the other point... I'm not sure it does address our concerns. But we'd need to look at the wording more closely... which would require you to hold off submitting this for a day or so, please...

HOLD ON THERE! Don't be so hasty to submitt it. That was the problem with the first draft after all.

Change the name... call it something like, Amendment to the Education Reform Bill (or something so that it tells people right off that this is to help fix the problems of the first draft and not a completely new resolution.)

My main concern is using teachers and Students to montor the funding. They have better things to do such as teaching and learning. I would suggest that it be an appointee from a volunteering government whose educational system is not in need of repair. (impartial and can offer suggestions on where the money can be applied)

Private schools are just that, private. they are funded by the parents and any sponsoring companies, and thus do not get (usually) government money. I would amend that to say "all educational facilities funded by their government would be evaluated."

You don't mention the extra curricular activities clause you mentioned in the first bill. so they get no funding? then they shouldn't be evaluated. "After careful consideration, it is felt that all extra curricual activities should be and will be sponsored by individual Nations." After all, EC activities are wide ranging, from sports to acedemics to hobbies-baised. That alone would drain the UNEC funds.

Another item to be "removed due to relevance" is the food. Dietary needs are different for every enviornmental region. and economy of each nation also determines the quality of the food. If the Nation is undergoing a famine, are you going to be holding that against them?

You also don't mention the guidlines for evaluation. You mentioned it in the forum but for completness, it should be mentioned here.

Also for completeness, acknowledge the Mistake with the word Nation's in the last paragraph of the first draft... that is if it is a mistake. After all, it already passed so if you want to keep the power and benefits... that's up to you now.

DP

As to the public/private thing, that is covered in article 1c. public systems will recieve the first grants, then those privates that apply.

Right, we've looked at this more closely and are not at all sure that 1c covers our specific concerns. It just reads "public and private," without specifying that public should take priority over private or vice versa.

That's not what concerns us, anyway - we'd have a problem if the funding from our thriving socialist economy was being bled off to prop up a failing private system in a rich nation which could well afford a decent state system, but the way the proposal's worded seems to prevent that.

What we're worried about is that if the UNEC were to come under the control of a majority of capitalist nations, it could start making "recommendations" that nations' state-run schools don't deserve any funding until they're turned into "efficient" private schools.

There seems to be nothing in the wording to prevent this, so we'd like clause 10 to be amended so that it reads "REAFFIRMS etc etc...in the UNEC decision making process, and that the UNEC shall not have the power to withhold funding based purely on a nation's chosen economic model or to make funding contingent on changes to that model; and

11. EXPRESSES etc etc..."

If someone can think of a better way of phrasing it than "chosen economic model", please go ahead.

Right, we've looked at this more closely and are not at all sure that 1c covers our specific concerns. It just reads "public and private," without specifying that public should take priority over private or vice versa.


As a co-author here, I would suggest that article 1c works in tandem with article 7:

7. SUGGESTS that the evaluation of the current status of the overall quality of educational programs includes a budget analysis of the educational program, student retention, school curriculum and program of study, educational goals of the society in question, and feedback from the students / teachers / administration and representatives of the country applying for the grant;

The UNEC is forced to consider the needs of the country applying for the grant.

Let's say that my Confederation wants money, but only wants money for public schools. The UNEC has to at least address input from my nation's representatives.

10kMichael

What we're worried about is that if the UNEC were to come under the control of a majority of capitalist nations, it could start making "recommendations" that nations' state-run schools don't deserve any funding until they're turned into "efficient" private schools.

There seems to be nothing in the wording to prevent this

That is a good and fair question.

When working with Hersfold we thought that the following may answer that question:


3. FURTHER DEFINES the voting membership of the UNEC to include:
a ) any UN member state which contributes to the United Nations Education Trust Fund, and
b ) a number UN member states, not to exceed 100 seats, as elected by the UN General Assembly to serve one year terms;

4. RECOMMENDS two advisory panels to the UNEC, composed of:
a ) up to two teachers from each UN member state, and
b ) up to two students from each UN member state;

5. INSTRUCTS the voting membership of the UNEC to take into consideration all of the recommendations provided by the UNEC advisory panel;

6. AUTHORIZES the UNEC to base the decisions concerning the awarding and continuation of the United Nations Education Trust Fund grants on both the recommendations of the UNEC advisory panel as well as on information collected on the current status of overall quality of the programs that apply for financial aid;


First, the intent of 100 nations was to balance the membership of the UNEC to include nations that gave money and those that are unable to provide money, but do have an interest in seeing where the UN organized trust sends its resources. Clearly we don't want to "reward" states that have no desire to ever improve the quality of their education (this is addressed by an article at the end of the proposal).

Second, the UNEC must consider the recommendations of teachers and students. They will be exposed to what countries really want and the record of their meetings will show this.

Now recalling that in clause 1 that the UNEC must periodically report the UN General Assembly (us) on its status, we have a check on the committee membership. If the committee is rewarding only certain economies, because the membership is slanted that way, there is no reason we can't balance the member by amending the UNEC again.

[OOC: The real UN Security Council was originally 9 members. The GA felt that the arguments were too balanced by the permanent members *and* that two nations per region sould be given a seat, so the original UN Charter was amended. In other words, it *is* realistic to change things when in practice they don't work out.]

It really is difficult to predict who will take an interest in the committee, but it is a matter of debate here and in the original UNEC discussions that the purpose is to help schools get a leg up. Not to funnel money into somebody's pockets or reward certain types of government educational practices.

10kMichael

HOLD ON THERE! Don't be so hasty to submitt it. That was the problem with the first draft after all.

Another item to be "removed due to relevance" is the food. Dietary needs are different for every enviornmental region. and economy of each nation also determines the quality of the food. If the Nation is undergoing a famine, are you going to be holding that against them?

You also don't mention the guidlines for evaluation. You mentioned it in the forum but for completness, it should be mentioned here.

Also for completeness, acknowledge the Mistake with the word Nation's in the last paragraph of the first draft... that is if it is a mistake. After all, it already passed so if you want to keep the power and benefits... that's up to you now.

I agree that we should take our time with this.

But as for changing the intent of the original resolution, we can't (game mechanics).

We can improve upon portions of the resolution that were vague, but we can't address the typo (that is all it was) nor can we go back and change the food issue.
Remember I voted against the original resolution because it was vague, but I was willing to forgive the typos once Hersfold explained that they were just such. It is my nation's position that all resolutions are vague to a degree and that the points addressed in the debate help to clarify those points.

My nation looks at the UN Forum transcripts before implementing new UN resolutions.

The guidelines are going to really need to be worked out by the UNEC itself, because like many matters, they can become extremely long. But before we even addressed that, we really needed to scope out what the purpose of the UNEC was, how it got funding, and who was on it.

I think we've taken a good first step.

10kMichael

Actually you can... because this is spcifically designed to specify, you can write a clause that states for example 11c: Hearby acknowldges the mistake of an Apostrophe 'S' where there is not suppose to be an Apostrophe.
Or just state that food quality will be dependant on the nation itself and not held to the higher (and maybe impossible) standard of the international community.

or something like that.

While you are correct we cannot change what passed, we can change it by stating such changes in a later resolution, especially one designed to follow up a previous resolution (as this one is).

Technically and actually it's not a mechanics change... its a change via later resolution. Were not repealing the previous one nor is the change expected (not by me anyway) to appear on the original.

Technically and actually it's not a mechanics change... its a change via later resolution. Were not repealing the previous one nor is the change expected (not by me anyway) to appear on the original.

OK, you've convinced me that we *can* do this, but should we?

The text of the proposal above already implies that the UNEC is for multiple nations. There are tons of typos, and while I don't like them, I'd rather not get into the habit of correcting them all.

The purpose of this resolution isn't to correct typos, but rather to address the vague points of the United Nations Educational Committee resolution. Now I would be happy to work on other resolutions that we feel are vague and improve them as well. :)

How are your thoughts on this issue now?

10kMichael

First, I am very happy to see that a second resolution is considered, because I very much liked the idea of the first resolution but not some of the mechanins. So here are my suggestions:

1) security in school. I think that this must be clarified as some countries (for instance mine) have zero crime or very low crime. Some contries might perceive security cameras or armed guards in schools as something that reduces their civil rights. Since reduction of civil rights is not in the spirit of the resolution this must be somehow addressed.

2) food in school. This is a highly controversial issue and not a necessary one, as it is not the primary purpose of any school of any level to provide food but provide knowledge. In particular schools where food is provided, (free of charge, or not), the nation-wide standards of food quality must be applied.

3) funding for UNEC. It should be clearly stated that funding for UNEC is purelly voluntary, so that nations and organizations can decide if and how much money they provide to the UNEC. I very much like points 1, 2 and 3 in this regard but I think point 2 can be strengthen as to express that all funding of UNEC will come from UNETF.

I also think that some more can be added as to address specific issues of higher level education (student exchange program, scolarship grants, etc) but more on this later.

Just my 2 eurocents,
Zeur00

As I will agree, we shouldn't have a Grammer police... however, there are some typo's that should be corrected. Like anything that may be mistaken as a bid for power, While we know Hersford made an honest mistake, by correcting it, it should also discourage anyone else from slipping in a "mistake" purposely put in there to gain them an advantage.

[OOC] i know we are role-playing {which is what I am doing} but alot of laws and people got in trouble due to mystakes in laws that have been passed. Besides, some people may get some Ideas and by correcting any and {possibly all} mistakes, it shows you are doing your best to be a good diplomat, and that everyone else will be relieved that you are willing to correct your mistakes.[END OOC]

for things like Security, and Quality of Food that should be left to the nations. with perhaps a tag to refer to Bill of Rights and Freedom of choice Resolutions to be used as guidelines. It will help prevent the resolution from becoming a novel.

Working on past resolutions may not be a bad Idea. after all, Most oppositions to past resolutions were due to vaugeness and badly written resolutions... not the ideals themselves (well, for me at least) It also might encourage participation in resolution writing and help people get into practice.

Hey what happened? I thought we were going to make history here... We can work on this, improve on it and perhaps get it passed.

Hersford... you giving up? Can I take a stab at this one?

We're pretty much behind this. Pig's ear -> silk purse?

Hey what happened? I thought we were going to make history here... We can work on this, improve on it and perhaps get it passed.

Hersford... you giving up? Can I take a stab at this one?

Well, seeing that it failed to get enough endorsements, are there changes to the wording that you'd like to suggest?

I too think we (perferably Hersfold, since the current form is largely his) should make history here.

10kMichael

ok, lets do this one point at a time.

Amendments to UNEC

AWARE of the passage of its resolution, United Nations Educational Committee, adopted April 9, 2004,

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
b ) Providing additional educational grants in the form of purchased supplies directly to all levels of public education of member states that have requested financial help, as well as selected private education programs that have applied for supply grants to the UNEC,
c ) Evaluating the level of need and appropriate supply purchases for the national education programs and public and private school programs that have applied to the UNEC for assistance, and
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;

my only concern for this point is that Private Schools rarely recieve funding from national agencies. Perhaps rewording that to say.

Public and Government funded Educational institutions will receive grants after passing the UNEC Evaluation process.

any other thoughts and suggestions.

ok, lets do this one point at a time.

Amendments to UNEC

AWARE of the passage of its resolution, United Nations Educational Committee, adopted April 9, 2004,

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
b ) Providing additional educational grants in the form of purchased supplies directly to all levels of public education of member states that have requested financial help, as well as selected private education programs that have applied for supply grants to the UNEC,
c ) Evaluating the level of need and appropriate supply purchases for the national education programs and public and private school programs that have applied to the UNEC for assistance, and
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;

my only concern for this point is that Private Schools rarely recieve funding from national agencies. Perhaps rewording that to say.

Public and Government funded Educational institutions will receive grants after passing the UNEC Evaluation process.

any other thoughts and suggestions.

I honestly can't say with certainity if private schools get public funding or not. Some certainly get grants, and I've assumed that some grant money is public.

But, I like you point! :)

How about changing b ) to read:


b ) Providing additional educational grants in the form of supplies directly to educational institutions that have requested financial help from the UNEC,
c ) Evaluating the level of need and appropriate supply purchases for the national education programs and educational institutions that have applied to the UNEC for assistance, and


Thoughts?

10kMichael

Hmm. A thought... However, Most private schools receive their funding directly from the private sector. I.e. Businesses and parents donate/pay fees to the school. The School can then keep 100% of the donations to be used for educational purposes. Institutions like public schools receive funding that is equally distributed to every school/school district.

Then, again. To dictate that the funds can only be used by Government funded institutions might be micromanaging... perhaps that should best be left to the nation's leaders.

Ok. Mikitivity, changes made... (good idea btw)

---

Amendments to Educational Committee Reforandum adopted this April 9, 2004

AWARE of the passage of its resolution, United Nations Educational Committee, adopted April 9, 2004,

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
b ) Providing additional educational grants in the form of supplies directly to educational institutions that have requested financial help from the UNEC,
c ) Evaluating the level of need and appropriate supply purchases for the national education programs and educational institutions that have applied to the UNEC for assistance, and
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;

---

In reference to 1b. perhaps not only just supplies but FUNDS as well. for major repairs needed to structures and perhaps training programs for educators?

1d (IMHO) should be "report its findings to the assembly." Remove When Appropriate... it should be regularly.

Any other suggestions or comments on item 1?

In reference to 1b. perhaps not only just supplies but FUNDS as well. for major repairs needed to structures and perhaps training programs for educators?

1d (IMHO) should be "report its findings to the assembly." Remove When Appropriate... it should be regularly.

Any other suggestions or comments on item 1?

I was trying to be vague with 1d. My government doesn't want to have some NationStates UN weirdo calling us all liars if the reports are on a regular basis. ;) [OOC: I wasn't sure what the game mechanics of this would be.]

As for 1b, originally Hersfold and I were concerned that giving money could be misused, so we figured it is much harder to misappropriate pencils, paper, text books, stick glue, etc.

But you've brought up a good point, the grants in 1a sound like they are for teachers and students, but not really facilities. They might be, but facilities should be improved. What would your nation think about having another subclause directly addressing the need for facility improvement grants.

I think training teachers is covered in 1a, but if it doesn't seem this way, let's find a better way to say that too.

Thanks for your interest! :)

10kMichael

Incorporates comments from Hersfold, Mikitivity, Ichi Ni, and Zeuro.

My nation has been talking to Hersfold. The nation of Hersfold is experiencing both technical difficults and their UN ambassador is currently dealing with important domestic issues. Since he has not been able to attend UN meetings he asked me to forward this on. We are still looking for input.

Thanks,
10kMichael


Amendments to UNEC

AWARE of the passage of its resolution, United Nations Educational Committee, adopted April 9, 2004,

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
b ) Providing additional educational grants in the form of supplies directly to educational institutions that have requested financial help from the UNEC,
c ) Evaluating the level of need and appropriate level of funding for the national educational programs and educational institutions that have applied to the UNEC for assistance, and
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;

2. ESTABLISHES a United Nations Educational Trust Fund (UNETF), which will be managed by the UNEC and funded through donations by international, national, and non-governmental sources, to be the primary source of funding for the UNEC;

3. FURTHER DEFINES the voting membership of the UNEC to include:
a ) any UN member state which contributes to the UNETF, and
b ) a number UN member states, not to exceed 100 seats, as elected by the UN General Assembly to serve one year terms;

4. RECOMMENDS two advisory panels to the UNEC, composed of:
a ) up to two teachers from each UN member state, and
b ) up to two students from each UN member state;

5. INSTRUCTS the voting membership of the UNEC to take into consideration all of the recommendations provided by the UNEC advisory panel;

6. AUTHORIZES the UNEC to base the decisions concerning the awarding and continuation of the United Nations Education Trust Fund grants on both the recommendations of the UNEC advisory panel as well as on information collected on the current status of overall quality of the programs that apply for financial aid;

7. SUGGESTS that the evaluation of the current status of the overall quality of educational programs includes a budget analysis of the educational program, student retention, school curriculum and program of study, educational goals of the society in question, and feedback from the students / teachers / administration and representatives of the country applying for the grant;

8. AFFIRMS that the grants provided by the UNEC will only be used for educational purposes, such that if the UNEC has reason to believe the funds or supplies it provides are being used for non-educational programs, the UNEC may vote to suspend the funds upon an investigation, as provided by its monitoring program described above;

9. ACKNOWLEDGES the inherent right of societies to determine what is best for their children, by taking into consideration the cultural and social needs of the members states and schools that apply to the UNEC;

10. REAFFIRMS that the financial resources provided by the UNEC should be given out on a need basis, with the nations most in need of assistance will be given a priority in the UNEC decision making process; and

11. EXPRESSES ITS HOPE that in time that nations will be able to supplement the aid provided by the UNEC and that the programs and institutions that apply for UNEC aid may become self-sufficient.

So is Hersford willing to make changes or is Hersford Adamant that this stays as is?

So is Hersford willing to make changes or is Hersford Adamant that this stays as is?

Only one way to find out, isn't there? ;)

I think it is a given though that the purpose amendment is to better define the role, but still work to help get resources to children and their teachers.

10kMichael

the reason I asked is that you just reposted Hersford's original without the changes we worked on.

Anyway, here is my suggestion for Point 1) keeping our changes in but focusing this point to the role of the UNEC.

Amendments to Educational Committee Reforandum adopted this April 9, 2004

AWARE of the passage of its resolution, United Nations Educational Committee, adopted April 9, 2004,

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Establishes Minimal Education standard on a Per Nation Basis.
b ) Evaluates Education System for every Nation requesting Financial Aid.
c ) Provides educational grants in the form of funds supplied to the governments of any nation that have requested financial help from the UNEC.
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly.
e ) Evaluates and Monitors improvements to the applicant nation. Approving additional funds if neccesary or sanction recommendations should evidence be found that the funding was mis-appropriated or otherwise diverted from its original purpose.

Comments? Ideas?

They are slightly different. Here is the new text:

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
b ) Providing additional educational grants in the form of supplies directly to educational institutions that have requested financial help from the UNEC,
c ) Evaluating the level of need and appropriate level of funding for the national educational programs and educational institutions that have applied to the UNEC for assistance, and
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;


Here is the old text:

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
b ) Providing additional educational grants in the form of purchased supplies directly to all levels of public education of member states that have requested financial help, as well as selected private education programs that have applied for supply grants to the UNEC,
c ) Evaluating the level of need and appropriate supply purchases for the national education programs and public and private school programs that have applied to the UNEC for assistance, and
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;

I also made a change based on a comment in this thread to specifically state that the UNEC is funded primarily by the new UNETF.

I meant that I thought that we were thinking of not using purchased supplies but providing funding (less hassels with finding contractors as well as being more flexable in the application.)

Anything you like in my version of Point 1?

I meant that I thought that we were thinking of not using purchased supplies but providing funding (less hassels with finding contractors as well as being more flexable in the application.)

Anything you like in my version of Point 1?

Well, I'm a bit wary about establishing minimum standards, only because it is my nation's opinion that different societies may have very different techniques and doing something like this might be very difficult.

As for the purchased supplies, what if we removed clause 1b? Grants could be written for supplies or not, depending upon need. We could allow the UNEC to decide how best this can be accomplished.

-10kMichael

I have a question: Can one resolution contradict another one?

I have a question: Can one resolution contradict another one?

That really sounds like something a mod would be best able to answer.

Do you see a conflict with this resolution? I'd certainly appreciate your POV. :)

Personally I don't see any reason why amendments can't be made to vague resolutions, especially when they are supported by the arguments made during the pro statements of the original resolution. It really was our design to keep this resolution / amendment along the lines of helping nations in need find that aid through the UNEC.

10kMichael

Damn, it's getting harder to post on these boards... the price to pay as more people get involved I guess.

While I agree on hating to create a standard, Because the original resolution mentioned a minimum requirement, my clause makes it on a per-nation basis. Thus low tech nations won't be expected to teach Calculus while High tech nations might require Algebra II to graduate High School.

We can remove 1b. And my clause at the end (1e) allows the UNEC to monitor the use of the funds and to enforce them should a nation try to chisle some fat off of the educational system.

Points 1a and 1b further explains your 1c so your 1c was removed for redundancy sake... unless you think otherwise...

Newly revived Proposal:

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC to include:
a ) Establishes Minimal Education standard on a Per Nation Basis.
b ) Evaluates Education System for every Nation requesting Financial Aid.
c ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;
e ) Evaluates and Monitors improvements to the applicant nation. Approving additional funds if neccesary or sanction recommendations should evidence be found that the funding was mis-appropriated or otherwise diverted from its original purpose.

Well, hows that? I think it's a perfect blending of both our ideas.

Oh and Wetland, I believe as long as it a) states that the contradiction is to enable a change, thus supersede the original, AND b) does NOT REQUIRE a change in game mechanics nor database, I think the mods will allow it... unless I'm wrong, then the mods will step in and inform us.

if there are no objections then, I move to the second point.

I propose the second point be used to define the Funding and purpose of the funding being granted to approved nations.

2. Defining appropriate use of United Nations Educational Trust Fund (UN:ETF)
a ) Purchasing of supplies to be used for the purpose of instructing and learning.
b ) Fund training for educators and instructors
c ) Fund repairs and maintenance for facilities to insure a clean, safe educational facility as well as providing a safe haven for the well being of students and faculty.
d) Providing healty and nutritious meals for students and faculty

Comments?

His Holiness the Governor-General wishes to express his concerns for this proposed resolution.

His Holiness first establishes United Nations Resolution UNR20030801, `Education For All', a resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare, does not specify what constitutes an `education'. His Holiness is alarmed that this proposed resolution not only fails to define what constitutes an `education', but further requires nations to provide whatever the UNEC arbitrarily decides is educational, or will not gain necessary funding to offer legitamate educational venues.

The proposed resolution specifies in frightening detail how the UNEC will control which nations may receive humanitarian assistance yet does not specify any criteria on which such assistance is to be granted.

This resolution, if passed, will create an oligarchy within the United Nations who may arbitrarily decide what content is `educational', therefore extorting other nations, thereby robbing the needy of necessary humanitarian assistance. This proposal, if ratified, will do harm the global state of education.

The only forseeable outcome of this resolution would be a state where the athiest nations are forced to accept religious dogma as `education' and the thiest nations are forced to abandon their core cultural identity.

His Holiness objects to this resolution on grounds consisting of Human Rights, Social Equity, Social Justice, and Cultural Preservation. His Holiness encourages other nations to exercise their own good judgement and follow the principles of Good Governence, which require this proposal to be rewritten or retracted.

[signed]
The Bishop Fred al-Rubei of The Directorate of Foreign Relations of The Dominion of North East Cathanistan

His Holiness first establishes United Nations Resolution UNR20030801, `Education For All',

First, I would like to say, the above date-based name actually is a good system for naming resolutions. :)


The proposed resolution specifies in frightening detail how the UNEC will control which nations may receive humanitarian assistance yet does not specify any criteria on which such assistance is to be granted.


The UNEC committee obviously must make that decision based on the information provided to it. That is why the resolution details who can be on the committee. NOTE: it doesn't mandate who is on the committee, but rather sets up rules for who can be.

The problem is, we can't crank out a 100-page resolution. We just can't. And it is my government's opinion that this proposed amendment is a good step towards building upon the basic framework of the original UNEC resolution.


This resolution, if passed, will create an oligarchy within the United Nations who may arbitrarily decide what content is `educational', therefore extorting other nations, thereby robbing the needy of necessary humanitarian assistance. This proposal, if ratified, will do harm the global state of education.


Your opinion is totally unsupported by the document ... it took legal experts from my Confederation and Hersfold days to come up with the original idea, and then North Pacific legal experts refined the idea some.

I quote from the proposal:


3. FURTHER DEFINES the voting membership of the UNEC to include:
a ) any UN member state which contributes to the UNETF, and
b ) a number UN member states, not to exceed 100 seats, as elected by the UN General Assembly to serve one year terms;


Under clause 3, membership is comprised of up to 100 seats from this Assembly and member states that contribute to the UNETF.

Q: Why did we do that?

The simple answer is we shared your fear and felt that in order for nations to just give away money, they would want a say. How does the saying go ... there is no such thing as a free lunch? There is a biting truth to that statement.

But at the same time, the second part of clause 3 insures that 100 general members will be on hand to balance and put into perspective the decisions of the nations that donate.

Let's be realistic here. This amendment can be changed a year or two from now by adding additional GA seats, if this assembly feels that the UNEC is "brainwashing" or interfering with nations' educational systems.

That is the point: let's incrementally work together.

But naturally if you have a 100-page proposal you'd like to put forth, Mikitivity legal experts stand ready to read away.

10kMichael

if there are no objections then, I move to the second point.

I propose the second point be used to define the Funding and purpose of the funding being granted to approved nations.

2. Defining appropriate use of United Nations Educational Trust Fund (UN:ETF)
a ) Purchasing of supplies to be used for the purpose of instructing and learning.
b ) Fund training for educators and instructors
c ) Fund repairs and maintenance for facilities to insure a clean, safe educational facility as well as providing a safe haven for the well being of students and faculty.
d) Providing healty and nutritious meals for students and faculty

Comments?

Actually I like this revision better, but I'd like to keep parts of the original clause 2 as well.

I apologize for not addressing clause 1, but frankly I think the changes I made before really do address most of your points. Unfortunately my legal staff has been busy with the Bio resolution and we've neglected replying and continuing work here. I however would like to express my personal thanks for your nation's continued interest in the UNEC. Hopefully this weekend my staff can again spend more of its time split between the UNEC and NEO proposals. :)

Obviously, my nation has no problems about taking a long time to work for quality over quantity in UN resolutions.

10kMichael

His Holiness the Governor-General is pleased the respected delegate from The Confederacy of Mikitivity has most graciously responded, offering logic and fact to a nebulous issue.

His Holiness, on reflection and the aforementioned enlightenment, remains firm on his objection. His Holiness, by accepting the delegate from The Confederacy of Mikitivity at face-value, understands the issues raised.

His Holiness believes an article, in wording similar to:
``The UNEC defines `education' as consisting of at minimum, but not limited to, proficiency training in the mathematics of Counting, Arithmetic, and Algebra; and proficiency training in Reading and Writing in at least one language''
would provide a necessary guideline for both the UNEC and the receiving nations.

If such an article were provided, His Holiness would whole-heartedly lobby for ratification of this resolution, which attempts to serve a most altruistic goal.

His Holiness again thanks the respected delegate from The Confederacy of Mikitivity for his generous application of logic.

[signed]
Seargent-Senator Suud Johnson of The Directorate of Public Education and Higher Learning of The Dominion of North East Cathanistan

His Holiness believes an article, in wording similar to:
``The UNEC defines `education' as consisting of at minimum, but not limited to, proficiency training in the mathematics of Counting, Arithmetic, and Algebra; and proficiency training in Reading and Writing in at least one language''
would provide a necessary guideline for both the UNEC and the receiving nations.


The only problem with including something like Algebra, is it may not be a priority for ... I dunno ... the crab people or dancing pengiuns. In fact, song and dance may be more important for some socities.

The purpose of the UNEC was to help nations, not convert their belief systems. And I think I can speak for Hersfold as well when I say we don't want to turn away nations if they are different than what most of feel is important.

But don't worry yet. Using the crab-people as an example again, if they want the UNEC to take their request seriously simply need to plead their case before the UNEC. If they can convince the UNEC members that home economics is more important than writing, the committee may decide to fund them.

The reason this may work, is the GA should vote to put 100 nations on the committee that are open minded. Let's say that Alegbra is important to both our nations ... obviously if we were to sit on the UNEC committee, our representatives would have the right to ask the crab-people why they feel their schools don't need Alegbra.

The bottom line is we can't easily make rules on what is good for a culture and what is not. The point of having a moderate sized committee (remember the UN has 10,000s of nations) is to judge each application on a case by case basis.


That said, how does your nation feel now?

10kMichael

His Holiness did not request `Free Bird' to be performed at his wedding reception, and by the same logic, His Holiness now looks forward to the laughable spectre of Lowest Common Denominator masquarading as `education'.
His Holiness has nothing further to offer to this debate and wishes all participants well.

[signed]
The Bishop Fred al-Rubei of The Directorate of Foreign Relations of The Dominion of North East Cathanistan

His Holiness demeans the value of his input. Any and all contributions are looked into seriously. The problem I had with your suggestion is it imposes a UN level that not all nations can reach, hence on a per nation basis. A medieval Tech level Nation won't be expected to know Algebra, but a modern day one most certainly will. At the same token, Human based culture will definitly not benifit from a crustacianoid skill of "shell building 101" (attempt at humor, apologies if it failed miserably.) I'm sure no insult was meant when repling to your suggestion.

Mikitivity, sorry, I kinda thought you gave up on this... Apologies offered.

Which parts of the original clause 2 did you want to keep? I kinda broke it down to keep it in form. If I missed something, please let me know.
As for clause 1, I kinda threw out the ones that were kinda redundant. if I mis-read them, please tell me which ones they were and I'll look at them again.

I moved the purchasing of supplies to this point as I believe point 2 should define the funds and their purpose.

Mikitivity, sorry, I kinda thought you gave up on this... Apologies offered.

Which parts of the original clause 2 did you want to keep? I kinda broke it down to keep it in form. If I missed something, please let me know.
As for clause 1, I kinda threw out the ones that were kinda redundant. if I mis-read them, please tell me which ones they were and I'll look at them again.

I moved the purchasing of supplies to this point as I believe point 2 should define the funds and their purpose.

No offense has been taken. I appreciate the interest both your nations are showing in this proposal.

As for what I liked of your amendment ... well all of it. But I still think the original clause 2 is important as well. I was thinking it looks like this ...

ORIGINAL:

2. ESTABLISHES a United Nations Educational Trust Fund (UNETF), which will be managed by the UNEC and funded through donations by international, national, and non-governmental sources, to be the primary source of funding for the UNEC;

PROPOSED AMENDMENT:

2. Defining appropriate use of United Nations Educational Trust Fund (UN:ETF)
a ) Purchasing of supplies to be used for the purpose of instructing and learning.
b ) Fund training for educators and instructors
c ) Fund repairs and maintenance for facilities to insure a clean, safe educational facility as well as providing a safe haven for the well being of students and faculty.
d) Providing healty and nutritious meals for students and faculty


My suggestion on how to combine things:
2. ESTABLISHES a United Nations Educational Trust Fund (UNETF), which will be managed by the UNEC and funded through donations by international, national, and non-governmental sources, to be the primary source of funding for the UNEC;

3. DEFINES appropriate use of the UNETF to be:
a ) purchasing instructional and educational supplies,
b ) funding training for educations and instructors,
c ) funding repairs and maintenance for facilities to ensure clean, safe educational facilities, and
d ) providing healthy and nutritious meals for students;


We'd need to renumber everything accordingly.

I wrote "ensure", though grammatically insure is most likely the proper modern English usage for your sentence. The distinction is perhaps a cultural one. "Insure" in my country specifically is associated with protecting from risk. Whereas "ensure" is to protect from anything else ... in this case unclean, unsafe facilities. But I think that this is an example where the Miervatian language is getting in the way.

I agree that the supplies fit better here, but I think it is still important to keep the original clause 2, since it is the first time that we talk about WHERE funding comes from. Never before has this been discussed, not even in the original resolution.

10kMichael

I like it. :D

I'm using a different pc right now so when I get back to where I have all my notes, I'll put the updated one up for review.

I like it. :D

I'm using a different pc right now so when I get back to where I have all my notes, I'll put the updated one up for review.

I'll be away conducting an environmental fish tracking study for the next day and a half, but come Friday 2004.05.07 perhaps we could post a version of the proposal that both our nations agree upon.

Similarly, I'd like to get back to your suggestions on Clause 1.

I think we have a chance to make UN history by bringing forward a proposal that is essentially a second part (i.e. amendment) to an existing resolution. Though there are some resolutions that appear to duplicate prior resolutions, I do not believe that our body has yet to follow up on any previous action.

On an unrelated note: I'd like to bring the NEO proposal my government drafted back to the table for discussions as well. The last proposal was described as being too watered down. I'm thinking this can be addressed by actually working on setting up telescopes (size and specifications my space agency already has an opinion on) in a few key global locations.

But in both cases, I'm afraid that my government will be busy with internal affairs in little over 2 weeks -- late May is the time of the annual Industrial and Experimental Music Festival in Miervatia. Most Miervatians return home, thus the CoM's UN embassy will be closed for a few weeks.

The significance of this is, my nation will be unable to offer its support for either the UNEC or NEO resolutions / proposals come late May. :(

10kMichael

His Holiness the Governor-General is, at this point, satisfied with the proposed legislation and pledges to lobby for support.

[signed]
The Bishop Fred al-Rubei of The Directorate of Foreign Relations of The Dominion of North East Cathanistan

Mikitivity, no worries... I don't think this will be ready to be released as a Proposal untill much later than May.

What Points seem Watered down? or is this only to the NEO proposal? Sure bring it on down. (tho if you want to wait till after May for that one, Fine by me.)

I have a question. You seem to be in contact with Hersford... did they give us permission to carry on? I would like to know if Hersford approves of what we are doing since the original resolution is his 'baby.'

North East Cathanistan: Thanks for the support... and any suggestions you feel might be helpful are always welcome! That goes for anyone reading this thread as well and feels that the UN Educational Committee resolution can be "improved" upon.

mis-posted

The Proposal thus far...
(leaving title out)

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC (Unitied Nations Education Committee) to include:
a ) Establishes Minimal Education standard on a Per Nation Basis.
b ) Evaluates Education System for every Nation requesting Financial Aid.
c ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;
e ) Evaluates and Monitors improvements to the applicant nation. Approving additional funds if neccesary or sanction recommendations should evidence be found that the funding was mis-appropriated or otherwise diverted from its original purpose.

2. ESTABLISHES a United Nations Educational Trust Fund (UNETF), which will be managed by the UNEC and funded through donations by international, national, and non-governmental sources, to be the primary source of funding for the UNEC. The functions and purpose of the UNETF shall include but not be limited to the following:
a ) purchasing instructional and educational supplies,
b ) funding training for education and instructors,
c ) funding repairs and maintenance for facilities to ensure clean, safe educational facilities, and
d ) providing healthy and nutritious meals for students;

***

Mikitivity: I kinda put your points 2 and 3 together because in my opinion they both define the UNETF and its purpose.

Anyone have any other ideas what the fund can be used for by way of education?

Any thoughts to the first two points?

The Proposal thus far...
(leaving title out)

1. DEFINES the roll of the UNEC (Unitied Nations Education Committee) to include:
a ) Establishes Minimal Education standard on a Per Nation Basis.
b ) Evaluates Education System for every Nation requesting Financial Aid.
c ) Providing educational grants to UN member states that request financial help for their education programs,
d ) Monitor the implementation of its grants and report its findings to this assembly when appropriate;
e ) Evaluates and Monitors improvements to the applicant nation. Approving additional funds if neccesary or sanction recommendations should evidence be found that the funding was mis-appropriated or otherwise diverted from its original purpose.

2. ESTABLISHES a United Nations Educational Trust Fund (UNETF), which will be managed by the UNEC and funded through donations by international, national, and non-governmental sources, to be the primary source of funding for the UNEC. The functions and purpose of the UNETF shall include but not be limited to the following:
a ) purchasing instructional and educational supplies,
b ) funding training for education and instructors,
c ) funding repairs and maintenance for facilities to ensure clean, safe educational facilities, and
d ) providing healthy and nutritious meals for students;

***

Mikitivity: I kinda put your points 2 and 3 together because in my opinion they both define the UNETF and its purpose.

Anyone have any other ideas what the fund can be used for by way of education?

Any thoughts to the first two points?

First off, I appreciate all the interest in this proposal.

However, apparently our new UN moderator doesn't appreciate our interest. Hersfold was issued a warning and the new NationStates policy on this is extremely unclear.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, please go to:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144387

And PLEASE, leave your opinion there. This is extremely important, as it determines how we can conduct business in the UN. And frankly, I'm extremely disappointed in the way things are currently being handled -- though I'm hopeful this is just a tragic misunderstanding on the part of our new UN moderator.

10kMichael

Thank you, Mikitivity, for posting that, and everything else here. I apologize to all of you for not posting here, but I had been very busy during that time and was unable to do much concerning this forum, due to it's renowned uncooperativness.

I did recieve a telegram last night from the NationStates Moderators (as usual, it was not specific, nor had a link) that stated the following:

Your proposal, "Amendments to the UNEC" has been deleted. You are not allowed to amend existing resolutions.

I asked the moderator Sirocco about this, and recieved the following response:

You'll notice that when submitting a proposal it clearly states "For more detail on what constitutes an inappropriate proposal, see here."

The 'here' being a link to a page where it shows that it is against the rules to make changes to already existing resolutions.

King Siroc

P.S. Any further complaints should be reported to the Moderation forum, and I expect that the moderator who deleted your proposal can answer any questions there.

I took their advice and checked the topic, which I believe Mikitivity has provided a link to above. The topic NEVER MENTIONED amending proposals, however it did mention that repeals and plagarism were prohibited. I was not repealing my resolution, however, and obviouly not plagarizing anything, since it was again, mine to begin with. I also find it quite ridiculous that it took 5 submissions for the mods to decide there was a problem. I have made this clear to the mods, yet have not recieved any response on this yet. Thank you all for the help you provided, as I am sure Mikitivity relayed it to me even though I did not check here, for which I again apologize. Please, if you want to see this passed, offer your support at the topic above. Like Mikitivity said, this will affect all UN members, so please help. Live Long and Prosper.

Well, while arguing that point lets finish this up. Perhaps if a Mod were to read the proposal carefully (yeah, right) they might realize that this is not a repeal but an addition to the previous admendment.

Hersford, since you're on, Do we have permission to try to "amend" your previous resolution... and perhaps make NS History?

Okay, this is ridiculous, and a complete U-turn from previous policy. I can more or less see the weird, pseudo-mechanics issue that means you can't have repeals, and I've sucked it up. But that you can't amend an existing resolution - in a way that does nothing to go against the spirit of the original, and merely to clarify some dangerous flaws in it - the only possible justification for it is that mods don't want to spend the time to tell the difference between a cleverly worded repeal and a genuine amendment.

But really, if this is how it's going to be we may as well just give up any attempts to make sane proposals and just submit endless streams of 'save teh trees' in order to make our economies mysteriously increase.