NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, by now you may know of the "Morality Bytes : Sexuality in the U.N." thread I started earlier, and why, to sum up, its a good place to concentrate logical discussion on the issue (In this case abortion and birth control), and issues, like this, which we usually have flood the U.N. forum with clunky threads meaning if your after serious debate, it can get a little confussing where you are... :wink:

Not so here! I hope! Here I hope we can concentate calm and rational debate regarding the above issue, with the hope we can all walk away with something to think about. Plus it helps smooth out the forum allowing fresh ideas a chance. :)

Any-way, enough about this, on with the discussion. And this thread topic is, Abortion / Birth Control.

-The Rep of Komokom

CLARIFICATION : Birth Control, regular means like condoms, implants, spermicide, etc, etc, etc. Not actually related to abortion but to the prevention of conception in the first place.

The delegation from Sophista, on orders from her home government, will not be touching this topic with a ten foot pole. The issue of abortion, we believe, is simply far to volatile to produce reasonable discussion without being infiltrated by violent extremists on both sides.

Sincerely yours,
Daniel M. Hillaker
Minister of Foreign Affairs

The delegation from Sophista, on orders from her home government, will not be touching this topic with a ten foot pole. The issue of abortion, we believe, is simply far to volatile to produce reasonable discussion without being infiltrated by violent extremists on both sides.

Sincerely yours,
Daniel M. Hillaker
Minister of Foreign Affairs

With all due respect for Sophista, and the great amount of experience of its government and delegation, I do believe this is an important matter. Isn't what you are suggesting conceding to violence?

Sincerely yours,
North Sunrider
President of the Democratic Republic of Korjevia

With all due respect for Sophista, and the great amount of experience of its government and delegation, I do believe this is an important matter. Isn't what you are suggesting conceding to violence?

We believe that this is an important domestic matter, and that this kind of policy can only be resolved among like-minded people. To put this in the international arena is akin to throwing a steak to the dogs.

Everyone is going to have their way of doing things, and the extremes won't rest until everyone else agrees with them. This is not productive discourse, friend. This is meaningless banter. We seek to remain above the bottom of the barrel, and focus our efforts on meaningful policy solutions that stand some chance of coming to fruition.

Sincerely yours,
Daniel M. Hillaker
Minister of Foreign Affairs

[hey. how about that. 200+ posts!]

With all due respect for Sophista, and the great amount of experience of its government and delegation, I do believe this is an important matter. Isn't what you are suggesting conceding to violence?

We believe that this is an important domestic matter, and that this kind of policy can only be resolved among like-minded people. To put this in the international arena is akin to throwing a steak to the dogs.

Everyone is going to have their way of doing things, and the extremes won't rest until everyone else agrees with them. This is not productive discourse, friend. This is meaningless banter. We seek to remain above the bottom of the barrel, and focus our efforts on meaningful policy solutions that stand some chance of coming to fruition.

Sincerely yours,
Daniel M. Hillaker
Minister of Foreign Affairs

[hey. how about that. 200+ posts!]

The Democratic Republic of Korjevia agrees that this should be a domestic matter, and putting this in the international arena is wrong. But it is being put there. Not by us, but it is, by countless others. That's why we do believe this is an important matter, and that we should discuss it.

But discussing it does not neccesarily mean discussing about wether abortion and birth control are right and wrong. In our opinion you have just made a very valid point that this does not belong in the international arena at all, and should not be a part of resolution proposals.

In fact, you have made a highly valuable contribution to this discussion.

[congrats on the 200 posts :) )

* An insane cackle from The Rep of Komokom,

"Its alive, ALIVE, ALIVE I TELL YOU, MU HU HA HA HAAA !"

What? Oh, i am happy because this thread is actually working as I hoped, we are getting nice civil debate, and no one flamed me yet. Its been a good day!

- The Rep of Komokom. :wink:

This poll is way too inaccurate on both topics to even bear the hint of a sane discussion. Leave this to the nations' cares

This poll is way too inaccurate on both topics to even bear the hint of a sane discussion. Leave this to the nations' cares
What do you think would make a better poll?

Desdemona,
Constantly sigless.

Komokom, the thread isn't really working. No one's discussing the topic; they're discussing whether or not to discuss the topic.

We believe that this is an important domestic matter, and that this kind of policy can only be resolved among like-minded people. To put this in the international arena is akin to throwing a steak to the dogs.

We all agree with you, but there are some people in the UN who seem to think this is an international issue. Here, we have merely brought this issue into open discussion with no intent of it becoming an international issue. I lost my train of thought so if I try to further explain (although I hope the gist got accross) I will probably end up becoming repetitive.

Anyways, since we're here to discuss birth control and abortion, I'll start.

(stands up and introduces self as Tony, Prince of Vivelon)

Right-o. I'm a Catholic, and my religion dictates that both birth control and abortion are wrong. I understand sorta where they're coming from about sex's only place being in marriage and main purpose being to create offspring. But the fact is, that's simply not going to happen. No matter how much I try to Catholocize my people (which I wouldn't due to respect for personal freedom), they would still call for abortions and/or bc. So my stance is to take the lesser of two evils and allow bc, but not abortion.

So, who wants to discuss next?

Hey there seems to be a lot of people on that poll against abortion maybe i should reintroduce my 3rd trimester abortion proposal.

Hey catholic, why don't you believe in birth control, if god wants you to have a child, you are going to have one BC or not. If god gives us free will, its our choice whether or not to have a child. Unless god tells you get perganant you arent contending with his will. if the tubes are tied or snipped god will heal them if he wants you to have a child.

Hey there seems to be a lot of people on that poll against abortion maybe i should reintroduce my 3rd trimester abortion proposal.

Hey catholic, why don't you believe in birth control, if god wants you to have a child, you are going to have one BC or not. If god gives us free will, its our choice whether or not to have a child. Unless god tells you get perganant you arent contending with his will. if the tubes are tied or snipped god will heal them if he wants you to have a child.

I have a question for the pro-abortion/anti-death penalty people..... Why ?

If it is understood that a fetus is obviously an innocent and it is ok to abort... then why is it wrong to use the death penalty on an obviously guilty criminal?

Killing the innocent = ok
Killing the Guilty = not ok ?

hmmmzz

Consistancy would help your psyche.

you want to know why? Because without morality there would be grown men screwing little boys and the justicial system would say he just loved the boy, now listen here, what if you were aborted, then you wouldn't be here now would you, when you abort a child then you kill that child and never get to see what great ideas, or wonderful ideas this child would present. I do agree that rape victims should be allowed to abort, but if a child is able to lay down with a man then she should bear the responsiblity of a parent, Birth control is okay because there isn't a child to start with, but if you abort then that means that you are killing a premature child and that is what we like to call murder.

I suppose it would be wrong of me to say, "See? I told you so," at a time like this. After all, we Sophistans do tend to remain civil at all times. However, it is worth pointing out the kind of arguments being raised.

There is no rhetorical stasis in this debate, that is, people are arguing two different things. Even if you leave out all the personal attacks and slander, one side is saying its wrong to murder, the other is saying its wrong to take away choice. Since there exists no means to equivocate choice and murder, the arguments pass like two trains in the night and the asinine conversation continues.

Everyone with an opinion will feel free to jump in, throw it out without any kind of reference to arguments made or warrants for their claims, and then get mad when the other side calls them wrong. That's not UN debate, thats American TV news.

Sincerely yours,
Daniel M. Hillaker
Minister of Foreign Affairs

you want to know why? Because without morality there would be grown men screwing little boys and the justicial system would say he just loved the boy, now listen here, what if you were aborted, then you wouldn't be here now would you, when you abort a child then you kill that child and never get to see what great ideas, or wonderful ideas this child would present. I do agree that rape victims should be allowed to abort, but if a child is able to lay down with a man then she should bear the responsiblity of a parent, Birth control is okay because there isn't a child to start with, but if you abort then that means that you are killing a premature child and that is what we like to call murder.

I think you misunderstood my question. My question was to people who are pro-abortion, yet anti-death penalty. I find that an extremely strange set of beliefs to hold. To push for the deaths of innocents... all the while prevent the deaths of the guilty. To be for both is consistant, to be against both is consistant. To be pro-death penalty and anti-abortion is even consistant (if understood as saving the innocent andpunishing the guilty).... but to be for the former yet against the latter is just too wierd to comprehend... for me ;)

Oh my, did some one mention religion, meeep, here we go, so it was a matter of time, any moment now almost on cue I will hear an "I told you (WHUMP OF FRYING-PAN) ... " :)

This poll is way too inaccurate on both topics to even bear the hint of a sane discussion. Leave this to the nations' cares

1) Actually, considering the subject matter, its as accurate as possible while still functioning with what may still be only a small sample rate of members or passer-by readers.

2) I gave you the choice to vote yes for both, yes to one, yes to the other, or no to both, if your pro one but not the other then you vote for the one your pro for, thus giving it a vote only. And it recognises those who are pro both as well as anti-both, so no need to prioritise your pref. and compromise your vote. I also gave an option for those who don't care to see how many do not actually care, as they may. Exactly where the hell have I supposedly gone wrong, oh yee of little post?

3) Thank you for dissing the poll, the thread, and not actually giving a real opinion. Might I add the point of this thread is the nations care's, d'uh. :roll:

you want to know why? Because without morality there would be grown men screwing little boys and the justicial system would say he just loved the boy,

Sigh... :wink:

Uh, no, without morals we'd still have respect and common sense, this basis of existance on morals seems a signal of very weak self-esteem in yourself and society as a whole.

I also think you mean judicial, but now I am being pedantic. :wink:

Now, I disagree, laws to not rest on morals, they rely on society (Morals are a part of the society yes, but they are not the be all and end all of it), plus if you removed morals, then we would have a boy being screwed by a man in an existance where all parties involved, man, boy, society, find nothing wrong with that.

Ergo, your argument is without point. :)

now listen here, what if you were aborted, then you wouldn't be here now would you,

True, I agree, but had I not had a cup of coffee a moment ago I would not have had a cup of coffee. :wink:

when you abort a child then you kill that child and never get to see what great ideas, or wonderful ideas this child would present.

But who is to say another child would not be born with the same ideas, if its possible to have an idea then that idea will occur, its simple probability. I don't like your emotive debate here, its not "killing a child", its abortion. Please try not to swing people in such away, its animal-level and offends the reader.

I do agree that rape victims should be allowed to abort, but if a child is able to lay down with a man then she should bear the responsiblity of a parent, Birth control is okay because there isn't a child to start with, but if you abort then that means that you are killing a premature child and that is what we like to call murder.

If a child is to lay down with a man? Huh? She should bare responsibility? WTF? And birth control is okay, well, you almost seem sane now... :wink: Please stop the abortion is killing crap, try to find some reasoned argument.

- The Rep of Komokom.

I have a question for the pro-abortion/anti-death penalty people..... Why ?

If it is understood that a fetus is obviously an innocent and it is ok to abort... then why is it wrong to use the death penalty on an obviously guilty criminal?

Because we don't consider the foetus to necessarily be a full human being, whereas guilty criminals clearly are. If it's not a full human being, the question of innocence is irrelevant - you don't ask whether your steak was innocent.

Note that we don't say it's not a full human being: we say that the jury's out on the matter, as is clearly demonstrated by there being such a frickin' big debate in the first place. That granted, we consider it the moral responsibility of individuals to decide whether or not it's human - just as we don't dictate to everybody that they must follow a particular religion, on the grounds that we can't tell which religion is right.

PDK Orthmann
Ministry of Wu-Wei

Instead of discussing wether it's right or wrong (which you'll never agree on anyway, as Sophista pointed out), I think it would be more useful to ask yourself if this really shouldn't be a domestic issue.

You cannot force your religious beliefs on other nations. In fact, I propose a UN proposal to ban all resolutions based on religious beliefs. Religion should be left in the hands of the individual, not the nation, and certainly not the UN.

you don't ask whether your steak was innocent.

:lol:

This is a domestic issue. Why? simple. there are religions that ban the use of contraceptives... what are you going to do? Force them to use contraceptives? Some nations have problems with overpopulation. Again is the UN forcing it's views on all nations? Pro Life, Pro Choice, A Billy for your Willy, or running wild and free... those are choices best left to the Nations and not something the UN should be sticking it's nose in. How would you like the UN telling you what you can or can't eat. What shows are appropriate for you or what books you can read? If this trend keeps going, that's what the UN will be doing.

Abortion and Birth control
To be left to the discretion of those fit to judge.
If you think your people can decide their own actions, then let them choose.
If you do not trust your people to decide, then decide for them.
Since I trust personal judgement, I let my people decide.

you want to know why? Because without morality there would be grown men screwing little boys
There is a large misconception that without a sense of universal right and wrong, people will perform both arbitrarily and have no motive to stop either.

Wrong - if you don't tell people what to believe, they'll do their own thing.
This does not mean they'll perform 'wrong' actions.
Most people find child abuse disgusting, and would happily beat up anyone who performed it.
Some people cannot think for themselves, but the majority would avoid child molestation - if only because they'd be dead if they tried.

when you abort a child then you kill that child and never get to see what great ideas, or wonderful ideas this child would present.
Aside from the fact that children's great ideas often conflict with morality
That's a decent reason to produce as many people as possible.
There is a balance, so while massively making people (or refusing to abort them) may result in lots of ideas, it can lead to overcrowding, negligence, reduced workforce and all other such.

Problems in government are complex things, and should not be left to a unidimensional mindset of Right and Wrong.
Teach that to your followers to brainwash them while you invent your own right and wrong. :)
------

I don't value life. How can it be legal to avoid creating life, but be illegal to destroy life that was just created?
Why is it sad when a friend dies, but you meet a new friend at the funeral?
The difference is change, the latter of both sets of options involve more change than the former.
I have nothing against change (in general).
Death is a change and nothing more, at least not to me.

While I may not see murder as universally wrong,
and I have nothing against change in general,
I'll still stop you from assasinating me.
You don't need universal right/wrong to make a decision, nor do you need to be intolerant of one of the choices.
All you need is a desire and an uncertainty which can be influenced by it.

Killing the innocent = ok
Killing the Guilty = not ok ?

Not unidimensional.
Killing is not judged solely on moral culpability of the victim as you are implying.
Removing a mother/father from the workforce: not ok
Removing a prison warden from the workforce: not ok
While that's not my take on the matter, when judged from this perspective it seems rational.

Big mistake in politics: Presuming your values and ideals are the only valid ones.


Uh, no, without morals we'd still have respect and common sense
In general that is true, but it is not universal.
There's usually a balance of both, so a person can have a few universal morals and a lot of common sense - it's not a "You have it or you don't" situation.

I don't like your emotive debate here
People are both emotional and logical beings, and it is silly to neglect any part of who we are if we want to make accurate judgements or to be fulfilled.
I'm a logical person IMO but I respect emotional debaters.

you don't ask whether your steak was innocent.
I swear, the steak at Chillis is so bad that it HAS to be evil! :lol:

Religion should be left in the hands of the individual, not the nation, and certainly not the UN.
In your opinion yes, but there are enough Authoritarian states here to make you realise that your way isn't the only way.

...and there's my post.

Alright, many of you seem to be missing the point of the debate (sorry about the whole all-caps thing that makes the morons feel important, but it got your attention, right?) We are not trying to... umm... can't think of the word... insinuate? instigate? Yea, I think it's instigate. We are not trying to instigate UN action with the Morality Bytes series of threads.

What these threads are intended to do is bring to light issues of ethics, morality, whatever you want to call it, without it being an issue the UN would be voting on. Too many people think that this is the UN's buissiness, so they will post asinine proposals and threads, cluttering up the Forum, and usually ending up in a series of flame wars. Here, it's a very civilised discussion on these topics, and limited to one thread per topic. I'm sure Komokom can explain this better than I, since they are his threads.

Hey catholic, why don't you believe in birth control, if god wants you to have a child, you are going to have one BC or not. If god gives us free will, its our choice whether or not to have a child. Unless god tells you get perganant you arent contending with his will. if the tubes are tied or snipped god will heal them if he wants you to have a child.

Well, I personally am ok with BC, but the Church is against it. So you'd have to ask the Pope why. I am against abortion because I feel that the unborn child is already a human being from conception (Note: I said "I feel", not "is", because I cannot prove it with science) and, therefore, has all the basic rights of a human being (life, liberty, etc). Abortion is, in my opinion, murder, and therefore outlawed (or would be if we had an issue on it... lousy issue writers/editors :twisted: ) except in those extreme cases, which for me and my beliefs, are only constituted by life or death of the mother.

Well I don't exactly like the overuse of birth control . . . using it too much will only cause you to become sterile and incapable of continuing the human race at all.

And I believe that a woman can has the right to choose before the 3rd trimester, if the yet-to-be-born-baby is going to be a stillbirth, if they are raped, or if the yet-to-be-born baby has some sort of deblitation which threatens both itself and the mother

***Edit: Double Post***

Evil forums...

First off, Komokom, congratulations on a novel idea. On another unrelated note, we're having a severe frying pan shortage over here if you'd be intersted in selling us some..

OK.. Enough senseless randomness... I'll tackle the topics seperately as they're seperate thoughts to a lot of people


Birth Control:

I specifically condone the use of prophylactics, spermicide, the pill, and male birth control. I firmly beleive it is impossible to keep the populace form having sex. I really don't think it can be done. Given this the use of birth control is the simplest and most effective way of preventing children aside from abstinence. We also beleiev that even married couples do not neccisarily wish to have children. The proper use of birth control has been fuond by Galadisian scientists to be the most effective tool in reducing the number of unwanted births in our country as well as reducing the number of abortions done as well, but that will be gotten back to later. I've also not mentioned the other legitimate medical uses of birth control besides preventing pregnancy which I'll do later.


Abortion:

This is where your poll is a little substandard because it asks for a black or white opinion on an issue that isn't neccissarily black or white. Personally I hold that life begins on first breath and that abortion is fine at any point in pregnancy up until birth for any reason but I odubt that very many people agree with me. That being said it really is something that nations or actually individuals need to decide.

Now, I hinted earlier that the two are perhaps related. I've noticed in my country that as the number of unwanted preganncies the number of abortions to terminate unwanted pregnancies also tends to decrease. So perhaps countries against abortion should consider allowing birth control to help alleviate the demand for abortion.

~HPEH James the Sorta-Elven

Komokom will soon be mercy flying in our best combat frying-pans, which recently out-rated the riot baton in the Komokom'ian Police Officers Monthly magazine. :wink:

Yes, Vivelon, you actually hit the nail on the head, thats what these threads are for, also to point out, these are topics we usually agree are not for the U.N. to deal with. Then, a week later, some one comes in to say "Hey, about..." and it all goes to heck again. :) Hence me trying to roll them each into their own thread. So as to make alittle room in the off chance a good, serious proposal comes along so it does not get hammered by all the "ethics/moral/not really for this place but eh lets say it in our own thread as our ego dictates" debates... :)

- The Rep of Komokom, Minister for Stuff.

*HR wades in*

Personally, I currently have no firm position on the abortion issue. My feeling is that we don't yet fully understand how consciousness develops during the time the child is in the womb, so we have very little basis for deciding whether abortion is murder or not.

As far as birth control goes, I think there are too many factors involved for a human being to even come close to grasping the ethics of the situation. That said I would also like to note that the Catholic theology concerning said issues does not hold water IMO.

In the name of education,

BUMP

- The Rep of Komokom.