NationStates Jolt Archive

First draft of proposal. Any and all alterations and suggestions are welcome at this point.
___________________________________________

Resolution creating a universal electrical outlet and electrical device standard in all member countries. This resolution is made up of two parts;

1. Creating a single wattage standard for all electrical outlets in all UN member nations. Products manufactured from this point on will be built as to be accomodated by this standard. Previously manufactured products will be retooled by their original manufacturers.

2. Ensuring that all outlets are identical in terms of size, shape, and number of holes for which to plug in an appliance or other electrical device. Also identical will be the plugs of electrical devices designed to fit into said outlets.

The costs of this resolution will be minor in comparison to the money lost each day from the lack of a global electrical standard. Literally, this act will pay for itself seemingly overnight with bonus revenues from improved flow of goods.

It is hoped that these new international standards will ease the flow of products between different countries formerly unable to exchange high technology. In essence, it will break down a very large barrier in international free trade, and aid the economies of all member nations.
___________________________________________

Please do not hesitate to ask questions or add your comments. We want to make this resolution as beneficial as it can be.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of this proposal. As a nation that is becoming more enmeshed with technology and a higher standard of living, The Holy Empire of Kyriana would support such a measure.

First Question: Does this proposal apply to all financial classes? Are the poor and destitute just as eligible as the wealthy?

Second Question: How do we decide what standard we would like to set? There are numerous designs implemented throughout the world.

So what standard do we change to?

Whichever we choose will greatly benefit those states at the expense of others. While the nonstandard states will have to pay up to change every transformer, socket, electrical appliance and electrics production line in the country, the already-standard states will have to do no such thing. The gain in trade (which is hypothetical and yet to be backed up) would have to be substantial in order to offset such unfairness. And there are other problems.

We, for instance, stand to gain nothing from this, as we are part of the IFTA and therefore don't trade with non-IFTA states. Incentives to boost free trade therefore do nothing for us because we don't have it. Our economy doesn't rely on sheer bulk of trade; that is to say, we don't believe there's more money just because you push it around faster. So no, it won't boost the economies of all member nations; to us it'll be a costly and unnecessary venture that does nothing but make life easier for a handful of tourists.

Kamquin Dakar
Ministry of Trade and Industry

It's nice, but (OCC: I work in a hardware/lumber retail store), but many nations do not use the same type of power supply in which many forms of elctrical apparatus maybe AC or DC.

Also it would force many nations to retool current products, or recall all products which are currently on the shelves of hundreds of millions consumer stores and retail outlet chains. The cost in shipping alone, recalling, retooling, would bankrupt hundreds of businesses, (OCC: This is not a joke, this has happened to several dozen companies of electrical products who have had to do so because of wiring glitches, the last major one being Cadet Heaters which one of their products had the possibility to malfunction. It cost them millions in sales to recall and also ruined their reputation for over two years, and it was also found out that their was nothing originally wrong with their product)

The nation members of the UN may have to pass litigation changing the form of power supply, universal outlets, and the mechanisms in which power flows such as power lines. But this cost would not be payed for by the government. This cost would be absorbed by our public citizens, and by our businesses. We wish to know why we would have to exact more taxes from our citizens in order for them to change the power and types of outlets they use. Our citizens would like to be informed why they have to rewire their houses, purchase new outlets, and the need to repurchase every electrical device in order to achieve parity with every other nation on earth.

A computer running on a 240amp breaker will not function to the power requirements of a 212amp breaker of another nation. It could not pull enough power fast enough to stay on. If the outlets were to all be say 212amps then everyone would have to buy new computers, new microwaves, refrigerators, ovens, lamps, television sets, heaters...etc. etc.

The cost is in several billions. Our citizens will want to know the reason why they will have to purchase all new electrical devices in order to function properly in a new unversal outlet in which only one form of power may flow. Electricity has no intelligence, so it will not know it will be feeding to little or to much power to a device that was not specifically protected against a higher surge, or work at a rate of power far below it's needs.

First Answer: No one will be left behind, no matter how underprivileged they may be. Besides, the lower classes generally do not have as much money invested in technology to begin with, what with having very little money to begin with.

Second Answer: Nations in the developed world (North America, western Europe, industrialised Asia) which make up the majority of electric goods and outlets have net installed capacities of >50 000MW. It is my suggestion that North American standards are followed, as most consumers of these products reside in those countries. As for outlets, either North America or some new standard design based on a hybrid of the above countries would be our best bet.

Third Answer: One possibility is that the nations in which the new 'standard' is already standard could partially foot the bill for the other nations to catch up. When you think about it, it makes sense. Everyone must pay equally to have equal benefits.

Fourth answer: Times change, people change, countries change. Also, I know nothing of the IFTA of which you speak. It will only boost the economies which can accomodate these changes. These nations make up the majority of the UN, and if the resolution cannot benefit you no matter how it is changed, you always have the option of voting against it.

Fifth Answer: I agree, people generally don't like the idea of a whole lot of running around for someone else's benefit. But it is for their benefit also, even if they do not realise it. The costs may seem astronomical, but they are a fraction of the losses we will incur if this resolution is put into effect too far into the future or never at all.

Simplest terms, If I was a member of the United States of America, and we were told that we would have to convert all power requirements to a european standard, my computer would not work.

My oven would not work.

My refrigerater will not work.

My can opener will not work.

My blender will not work.

My television would not work.

Any electrical device in my home would not work to european power standards or outlets.

Why?

Because none of those devices in my nation were built to european power standards. In fact if I were to plug in my computer to a european power home outlet it would fry. I would have to wait, until my country retooled power lines, power supply boxes, the public utilities would have to lay down new power lines all across the nation. I would also have to wait as every electrical device manufacturer would retool their own assembly lines to build to the new power specifications. And then maybe I would be able to buy a new electrical devices for my home. I don't see a need to wait anywhere between six months to two years before I can buy a new computer that would work on a european outlet.

That's the monetary problem. And I'm not about to spend outragious amounts of money to rebuy every single electrical product of my home. I urge you to not let this proposal pass.

No one said it would be an immediate change. Operations of this scale require time, and as you have mentioned, plenty of money. But the expenses are all based with private interests. If Company A made it, Company A will retool it.

This could never break such a company. If a corporation has the funds to mass produce complex electrical products, it has the sufficient funds to alter them in the name of global unity.

This is not some fairytale that can magically with the wave of a mouse can expidite matters of incompatible power and electrical devices.

I'm serious. If you changed the outlet in my home to that of a european power, my computer would fry. So would every electrical device in my home and every home in my nation. Every single home in my nation is built to one standard. If someone from a european country brought over a hairdryer and plugged it in here, the thing would explode.

A home owner has to REWIRE his/her entire home with new wiring which can carry the new wattage of power. They would have to install new breakers and outlets to handle that power. Every device ever built does not magically come with a power converter. That means everyone would have to buy new household appliances in order to work with the new power requirements being set forth here. No one is going to fork over a total of $15,000 dollars per household just to live by someone elses power standards.

Yes, it looks like a really really nice plan. But if you think that plenty of time will change any detractor of the cost of this plan, I think you really need to look back into the issue. The cost is exhorbant. And there isn't any nation alive who would foot the bill for this plan no matter what amount of time you give them. Copper prices alone would skyrocket, many factory workers would strike for higher wages, the Public Utilities Departments of many nations would be forced to pay overtime to their workers as they rushed to lay down as many new power lines and stations as possible. All this to keep our citizens happy who would not have the use of a stove to cook their food, because their stove doesn't work on the new standards.

Electricity does not work the way that you think it does. You think any electrical current going to your outlet under a different amperage or volt would do just fine. More likely you'll get quite a shock.

A simple modification of the incoming power systems from the lines should suffice for urban areas, should it not? It is commonplace to find converters that change the general wattage and ampage of an outlet to more accomodate the device that is foreign.

Can not something of this general instrument be created that will work in larger numbers? At least as a temporary fix, until the upgrades are completed. No one would go without power, and everyone would be able to adapt slowly.

Ummmm no... because the electrical current going through the home has to be run through a certain gauge thickness of copper wire. If the wire gauge is to small, not enough power will get through. If the nation's power runs on a 10/2 wire supply and the new standard calls for a 14/3 wire supply, then the home itself HAS to be rewired no matter what the occupant wishes. Not enough electricity could be pushed through the copper wiring in order to power the entire household. This is an electrical fact.

Plus many nations use what is called a ground wire to help protect against power feedback, which if they don't have a ground wire they can get a real shock to whoever touches an electrical device. Believe it or not, some nations still use certain wireing in their home which does not use a ground wire (Pre-WWI). I'm amazed they haven't electrocuted themselves yet, and I'm still trying to figure out why they havn't.

I could endorse this plan, but only if the new standards were the standards already in use and set down by my own nation. If anything, maybe the rest of the world should change their standard to our standard. That way our devices would still work, and that way the cost would of rewiring millions of homes and forcing all over our national businesses to go bankrupt would be someone elses problem.

Most electronics have a transformer or inverter inside of them (or on a monster plug like computer speakers) to allow them to run from an AC wall source -OR- a DC battery source. It would not at all be a difficult undertaking to distribute converters/adapters. If it wern't for innovative thinking like this, we would all still be listening to 8-track tapes.

"This is not some fairytale that can magically with the wave of a mouse can expidite matters of incompatible power and electrical devices."

What? Why would anyone wave a mouse?

And the thing you have to remember, in simplest terms, is this: products for your home were never designed to last forever, or even for an extended period of time. May as well replace them now, and if something were to go wrong, you could get a new, potentially cheaper item from ANYWHERE in the world with the same standards. Besides-

In ten years, your oven will not work.

In ten years, your refrigerator will not work.

In ten years, your can opener will not work.

In ten years, your blender will not work.

In ten years, your television will not work.

Why?

Because things like those aren't designed to last long anyway. You lose nothing. You aren't replacing something you'll be using forever and ever. You will always be getting new items of these natures. You may as well do it now.

"If it's not broke, why fix it?"

I could also say..."If it's not broke, why replace it?"

Your asking several million people that they have no choice but to purchase new items, rewire their houses at their OWN expense, and there isn't a single government in the world which is going to pay for it all. Some people now are not able to afford many electrical luxuries as it stands now. Neither are the governments going to tell the populace that they will be taxed more so that they would have to foot the cost of the entire replacement of all electrical devices in their homes to a new UN standard. For one it's political suicide. It won't matter if it's in the UN law, if the hundreds of millions of people in one nation want to know why they have to buy new items for items they already possess, and work absolutely fine right now.

My computer is over fifteen years old and still working, along with a boom box with which I have had for two decades, nearly two-thirds of my lifespan. Granted that new technology is created all the time. But if I buy a new computer tomorrow, and find out the next day that it will be obsolete in two years because of a UN law stating that the power standard no longer applies for it...it's a slight problem to the consumer. And the government will tell the consumer, that's to bad. It's UN law, and you will now have to obey UN law. Also this is not covered under consumer warranty.

And no consumer is going to vote for the politician in the next election who even proposes it to them. That's why I said you can't change it with the magical wave of a mouse, or a UN resolution. As with certain other technologies. Electric/fuel hybrids are starting to coming around, and many are talking about full electrical/lithium state batteries to run vehicles. Pretty soon, petroleum based fuel will be a thing of the past.

But not everyone is going to be able to afford it. And many would want to know, beyond the clean air arguement, why they have to pay for a newer technology when their current technology is working just as fine in getting them where they need to go.

The governments in question would first have to raise the money from somewhere. It just doesn't appear out of thin air, and the gross national product is limited depending on the size of the nation in question, and their exports. They would either have to raise taxes or pull money from other fields. If the government is a military, they are not going to relocate funds which are slated for military purposes, they are going to pull money from social policies. The same in reverse for nations which are highly democratic, which would do the opposite, very likely weakening their borders or security. Those nations run by librarians would pull money from business sectors. And governments run by corporate business men, WILL not regear no matter what UN law was passed to this effect. They will not recall every recent purchase by the consumer in order to pay for another item which meets the new UN requirements.

The cost is high. And the people want to know why they should have to pay at the cost of another field or higher taxes.

As for the political clout, the people don't give a damn about the UN resolutions, unless it directly impacts their lives. Anything that would make them pay more money on items that they already own is a high impact resolution. More than likely any politician that asked their people of such a sacrifice would either be hung, or left out to dry on the next party ticket during re-election. The UN may force UN members what to do, but it's our governments that get stuck with insurrections, riots, and the grumbling. And instead of blaming the UN, they blame their own government.

Even if you stated the plan would be long term, there is still fall out for both the people and the delegates that hold office. That's what I'm trying to point out. The cost is a lot higher, and stating that it will be payed for the government is an illusion. The government doesn't foot the bill. The governed people foot the bill for every single resolution you pass. It's not free, and the money will have to come from somewhere. Many nations are poor as it is and can not afford it. And other nations will refuse to help pay for the retooling of another nations power demands and line feeds, or helping rewire their peoples homes, or install new breakers, breaker boxes, pay overtime to civil workers, and any number of items you quite havn't thought of. Ask yourself before you vote on this resolution, on whether your people can afford it or not, and think of the possible consequances of asking the people of this type of sacrifice before they are asked to pay.

"It will work because it's the right thing to do." This isn't an arguement about what the right thing is to do. It's about the cost the people have to pay for someone elses proposal in another nation. Right now if you were to hold a meeting on what would constitute universal, every nation would propose that their current format should be the one universal power system. And the reason behind this, is that their own people would not have to repurchase products, nor have to foot the bill for this travesty of a proposal. So someone's nation out there is going to be the lucky one, while everyone else will have to pay, making all the rest of the nations poorer and weakening their economies, all the while with the one nation continueing to make their own products and selling it to everyone else.

I'm one of those people who look at this situation from more than one angle.

And again, it doesn't matter what sort of converter you have. If the new universal power plug operates on a higher power output, the copper wireing gauge has to be thicker, to carry the extra electrical output. Otherwise not enough power would go into the home. You could turn on the lights, but your tv wouldn't work. Or you could turn on the tv, but the heater wouldn't work. And the more products you have on, their is always the possibility of the main breaker blowing, shutting off every single device in your home.

The home owner would have to tear out his walls, purchase new wiring, hire an electrician to rewire every receptacle and light switch in the the house with higher gauge copper wireing. Then they would have to rebuild the torn out walls with new sheetrock (plasterboard), and that means they are going to have to pay for a carpenter or a private contractor.

And that's going to cost the average tax payer, money out of their own pocket, for a UN resolution that you are looking to pass.

Ask yourself this. Would you pay to have your walls ripped out, rewire the house, rebuild the walls, just so some foreign trade tv from another country works inside your own home? Even though you already have a working beautiful tv set as it is? Nooooooooooooooooo.

The Holy Empire of Gethamane is behind the Terran Assemblage in this case. This would place an extraordinary drain on government funding. As we have NO private enterprise left, the government would be responsible for refitting these appliances. And as our tax rate is at 100%, we cannot simply raise taxes to cover the cost. However, we're also not going to even CONSIDER taking money away from Education in order to comply with an ill-conceived UN power standard (unless that standard is our own... that would suit us just fine).

Secondly... what if someone's appliance was made by a company that no longer exists? Presuming this is in a nation with companies to begin with, who foots the bill then?

My understanding of electrical systems is limited, but if each country designed an adapter to convert between their previous standard to the UN standard, would that not work? Granted, it alleviates only a small portion of the argument... There's still the problem of replacing our national power grid.

In short, Gethamane cannot afford this proposal. The money simply does not exist, and our citizens would not stand for the delays this threatens.

I'm surprised that so many people have computers that would burn up if plugged into an outlet in Europe, or North America.

My own computer has this little, almost hidden, sliding switch on the power supply. Were I to take it to Europe, I would slide the little slidey thing one way, and when I came home to the US of A, the little slider would slippy slide the other direction before plugging it back in to the wall outlet.

The same is true of SOME household appliances, but not all. I discovered this little secret many moons ago, when I purchased a Braun electric shaver. Check it out people. See how many electrical items you own, which are compatible with both NA and EU standards.

While this only addresses alternating current, direct current can be easily and cheaply converted to any voltage necessary, up or down. This is, after all, what the power supply in your computer does. It takes the alternating current from the wall, inverts to direct current, and supplies that direct current at precise voltage levels to the disparate components of your computer. Most CPU's operate at between 2 and 3 volts, with rather precise .1 volt increments.

This proposal has generally been a waste of time.

In the long run, the advantages are significant. In the short run, the costs are also significant.

I suppose whether this is a good idea would depend entirely upon whether you intend to live forever or not. I know I do.

Don't make me come over there.

*hick* .. well I run our electric chairs at 7,000,000 volts and 20 amps for shoplifters. Anything less then that takes too bloody long. *hick*

Now get me another BEER!

20 amps? Good gods, you only need half an amp to kill a person, 1 to make sure. 20 seems to be overkill.

20 amps? Good gods, you only need half an amp to kill a person, 1 to make sure. 20 seems to be overkill.

You need 4 to kill a man.